Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Majora's Visage]

But I can its called Sonic Mania, the only sonic game to genuinely be good and sell like hotcakes in the past decade. Even then 3D games that were well liked and constructed, like Colors and Generations did not have Shadow as a playable character. In generations, he was only like for a few moments.

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

 

[WaxPython]

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

Plz no sonic already has a classic sonic palette swap so that's as good as a deconfirmed as it's going to get

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Classic Sonic wouldn't be as much hype as Shadow would be.

 

[Kuon]

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

That would be so uncreative though. I think most people would prefer a different Sonic character as an echo over a different version of the same character

 

[Shadowwolflink]

Not sure if this has been shown here already, but I'll let you all make your choices first.

Banjo (5)
Shantae (4)
Gardevoir (2)
Conker (2)
Cuphead (1)
Earthworm Jim (1)

I had a hard time picking Conker because it's one of my favourite games of all time, but I'm not sure if he really fits in Smash.

 

[Pakky]

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

But see even that doesn't do anything for Sonic as a series. I'm not saying Sonic has NO good characters. What I am saying is that there are characters that seemingly mean more to the series than Shadow. Eggman, Tails, Knuckles all these guys come to mind before Shadow. Is Shadow a fan favorite? Of course, has he brought anything to the series that's "good"? Not really.

 

[Will]

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

No offense, but I don't see how just another variant of one character is gonna make it in. I know exist, but that's mostly because everyone was brought back in the first place and they were made as filler in 2001 (Toon Link was just New YL let's be honest). And are more than just another Samus or Pit in the long run. Classic Sonic is just another Sonic. Would you rather have another Sonic with another Sonic moveset, or somebody else with a slightly the same Sonic moveset?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Not sure if this has been shown here already, but I'll let you all make your choices first.

Incineroar (4)
Shadow (4)
Spring Man (3)
Blaziken (1)
Steve (1)
Ken (1)
Cuphead (1)

 

[92MilesPrower]

But I can its called Sonic Mania, the only sonic game to genuinely be good and sell like hotcakes in the past decade. Even then 3D games that were well liked and constructed, like Colors and Generations did not have Shadow as a playable character. In generations, he was only like for a few moments.

It's because Mania is a classic style game, and Sega pretty much established recently that we won't be seeing modern characters such as Shadow, Cream, Silver, etc. in classic style games. On the other hand, Shadow (as well as pretty much everyone else that isn't Sonic) hasn't been playable in 3D games for quite some time because Sonic Team can't get their heads out of their asses as of late. I'm still hoping for a true Sonic Adventure 3 someday where we can play as different characters again, but if it becomes a reality, it'll likely end up being a huge disappointment, looking at the recent track record of 3D Sonic games, sadly.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the “video game only” rule only applies to third-parties.

After all, Lucario debuted in a movie, R.O.B. was a real-life peripheral, Roy didn’t even have a game by the time Melee was released, Mr. Game & Watch is a literal OC based on generic Game & Watch characters and Miis debuted as console avatars rather than an actual “game”

Lucario's movie was made to promote the games and Roy's first appearance is still in a game, his game already existed, just wasn't released. G&W may not be a character but it was still a videogame first. And ROB was the peripheral for a videogame, much like the Superscope.
They are all necessarily related to videogaming so it still counts. We can talk about non-videogame Nintendo stuff appearing in Smash when I see **** like Hanafuda.

 

[Kuon]

No offense, but I don't see how just another variant of one character is gonna make it in. I know exist, but that's mostly because everyone was brought back in the first place. And are more than just Samus or Pit in the long run. Classic Sonic is just Sonic. Would you rather have another Sonic with another Sonic moveset, or somebody else with a slightly the same Sonic moveset?

Also, I think the reason Young Link and Dr. Mario were made was because of the short development time for Melee, they didn't have time to make a bunch of unique characters, so they just quickly made clones to make the roster bigger

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

Why? Shadow is significantly more popular and matches Sonic perfectly proportion wise which makes him easier to implement, there's no reason to pick classic sonic over him

 

[Will]

Lucario's movie was made to promote the games and Roy's first appearance is still in a game, his game already existed, just wasn't released. G&W may not be a character but it was still a videogame first. And ROB was the peripheral for a videogame, much like the Superscope.
They are all necessarily related to videogaming so it still counts. We can talk about non-videogame Nintendo stuff appearing in Smash when I see **** like Hanafuda.

I'd be cool with an Ultra Hand item.

Also, I think the reason Young Link and Dr. Mario were made was because of the short development time for Melee, they didn't have time to make a bunch of unique characters, so they just quickly made clones to make the roster bigger

Yeah that's obvious, but does that excuse still hold up 17 years later today is my question.

 

[ErenJager]

If you look at the locked Goku support threads, I bet 95% of users on this board would be surprised at just how much Dragon Ball and Goku by extension have contributed to Nintendo consoles, and gaming in general.

We're talking massive libraries of games spanning across classic arcades to OG console's... All the way to the modern age and mobile.

If Smash Ultimate is gonna represent all of gaming... I mean "4th" party has contributed to gaming history.

I know the next thing people will say is "well so has micky mouse, batman, star wars, spiderman" fair enough... But Smash is very Japanese focused in that all its playable characters are owned by Japanese companies... And most of its content in general. Factor in the cultural relevance of anime plus Bamco at the helm... Idk I wouldnt be surprised if Sakurai used a 4th party anime character as smash ultimates cloud strife

 

[Majora's Visage]

No offense, but I don't see how just another variant of one character is gonna make it in. I know exist, but that's mostly because everyone was brought back in the first place. And are more than just Samus or Pit in the long run. Classic Sonic is just Sonic. Would you rather have another Sonic with another Sonic moveset, or somebody else with a slightly the same Sonic moveset?

Oh believe me. I would much have preferred Knuckles as a playable character, but with that gone, I would prefer Shadow. I don't want Classic Sonic, but I think we shouldn't rule him out as an echo. Everyone keeps saying Shadow is going to be in due to the lack of AT, but I'm unsure if perhaps they removed Shadow in favor of Knuckles to pay homage to the classic Sonic days of the original trio.

 

[osby]

But see even that doesn't do anything for Sonic as a series. I'm not saying Sonic has NO good characters. What I am saying is that there are characters that seemingly mean more to the series than Shadow. Eggman, Tails, Knuckles all these guys come to mind before Shadow. Is Shadow a fan favorite? Of course, has he brought anything to the series that's "good"? Not really.

He hasn't brought any harm either.

 

[Kuon]

I'd be cool with an Ultra Hand item.


Yeah that's obvious, but does that excuse still hold up 17 years later today is my question.

Probably not, since they most likely have a larger development team and a longer time to develop the game

 

[DevaAshera]

Sakurai most definitely said this during a smash 4 direct.

No he didn't. Sakurai said nothing like that about 3rd Party characters during any direct, otherwise we wouldn't have Cloud.
He said appearing on a Nintendo console would be nice but isn't a rule, which even then isn't close ties to Nintendo.

But I can its called Sonic Mania, the only sonic game to genuinely be good and sell like hotcakes in the past decade. Even then 3D games that were well liked and constructed, like Colors and Generations did not have Shadow as a playable character. In generations, he was only like for a few moments.

Playable isn't important, even then he was one of Generations first really good mods on PC along with Metal Sonic and Amy.

Beyond that, he was a main character in the most loved 3D Sonic game, Sonic Adventure 2, which was also one of the first Sonic games to appear on Nintendo consoles along with Sonic Advance.

Agreed. My opinion is if we get another Sonic character it will be Classic Sonic as an echo of Sonic

As much as I like Classic Sonic, I don't think so. He'd be a little boring as a choice and we don't know if Echoes have to share proportions with the base character yet. Classic Sonic is a head shorter then Sonic with shorter limbs and it's not like you can make him faster or stronger then base Sonic to compensate for that shortcoming, thus making him worse then base Sonic.

I feel the best choices for a Sonic echo are Shadow or Metal Sonic, both have the same proportions as Sonic, can use the same moves, add another character, and are massively popular, though Shadow more so then Metal Sonic. Shadow can share stats while Metal could be faster but weaker or harder to control.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Oh believe me. I would much have preferred Knuckles as a playable character, but with that gone, I would prefer Shadow. I don't want Classic Sonic, but I think we shouldn't rule him out as an echo. Everyone keeps saying Shadow is going to be in due to the lack of AT, but I'm unsure if perhaps they removed Shadow in favor of Knuckles to pay homage to the classic Sonic days of the original trio.

they wouldn't remove the second most popular sonic characters assist because of a reason like that, and if they were really gonna they'd just add knuckles as well since shadow's assist is already fully functioning in smash 4

 

[Will]

Oh believe me. I would much have preferred Knuckles as a playable character, but with that gone, I would prefer Shadow. I don't want Classic Sonic, but I think we shouldn't rule him out as an echo. Everyone keeps saying Shadow is going to be in due to the lack of AT, but I'm unsure if perhaps they removed Shadow in favor of Knuckles to pay homage to the classic Sonic days of the original trio.

Why would he want to "pay homage to the classic days" by removing Shadow from the game entirely? That's just unneccessary. Even if he was still an AT, there's no excuse to not bring him back in for some arbitrary purist reasons.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Oh believe me. I would much have preferred Knuckles as a playable character, but with that gone, I would prefer Shadow. I don't want Classic Sonic, but I think we shouldn't rule him out as an echo. Everyone keeps saying Shadow is going to be in due to the lack of AT, but I'm unsure if perhaps they removed Shadow in favor of Knuckles to pay homage to the classic Sonic days of the original trio.

I initially thought they'd do Classic Sonic too. All you'd have to do is shorten the quills, make the model smaller, remove the voicelines, and do the UI and then you're done.

If you look at the locked Goku support threads, I bet 95% of users on this board would be surprised at just how much Dragon Ball and Goku by extension have contributed to Nintendo consoles, and gaming in general.

We're talking massive libraries of games spanning across classic arcades to OG console's... All the way to the modern age and mobile.

If Smash Ultimate is gonna represent all of gaming... I mean "4th" party has contributed to gaming history.

I know the next thing people will say is "well so has micky mouse, batman, star wars, spiderman" fair enough... But Smash is very Japanese focused in that all its playable characters are owned by Japanese companies... And most of its content in general. Factor in the cultural relevance of anime plus Bamco at the helm... Idk I wouldnt be surprised if Sakurai used a 4th party anime character as smash ultimates cloud strife

Smash is video games only. If it were then James Bond would have been in.

 

[Pakky]

He hasn't brought any harm either.

...Y-you sure?

Shooting down human soldiers in the street with real guns...


I mean, whew.

 

[Kuon]

Oh believe me. I would much have preferred Knuckles as a playable character, but with that gone, I would prefer Shadow. I don't want Classic Sonic, but I think we shouldn't rule him out as an echo. Everyone keeps saying Shadow is going to be in due to the lack of AT, but I'm unsure if perhaps they removed Shadow in favor of Knuckles to pay homage to the classic Sonic days of the original trio.

I think Tails is much more deserving than Shadow, even though he probably wouldn't work as an echo. Tails has been around much longer (since 1992) and is Sonic's best friend. Plus Tails is probably more popular than Shadow

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder Echo Fighters have to have the same goddamn proportions how hard is it to get this?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

...Y-you sure?

Shoot down human soldiers in the street with real guns...

Snake? Snake?! SNNNAAAAAAKKKKKEEEEEEEEE!

 

[Paperchampion23]

Question, anyone think that since they changed Zelda's appearance to A Link between worlds, they actually have plans to add Hilda into the game? Thinking more about it, Hilda is an excellent character to add as an Echo.

 

[Will]

I think Tails is much more deserving than Shadow, even though he probably wouldn't work as an echo. Tails has been around much longer (since 1992) and is Sonic's best friend. Plus Tails is probably more popular than Shadow

eeeeeeehhhhhhh

Let's not throw the word "deserving" into the mix. Nobody ever deserves to be playable.

Question, anyone think that since they changed Zelda's appearance to A Link between worlds, they actually have plans to add Hilda into the game? Thinking more about it, Hilda is an excellent character to add as an Echo.

They might if they want to, it could be the only new Zelda rep they're getting this game. I thought ALBW was pretty good.

 

[Kuon]

I initially thought they'd do Classic Sonic too. All you'd have to do is shorten the quills, make the model smaller, remove the voicelines, and do the UI and then you're done.

Smash is video games only. If it were then James Bond would have been in.

Wait, people were arguing that Isabelle wouldn't work as an echo of Villager because of the height difference, but Classic Sonic could work, even though he's half the size of Modern Sonic? I must be misunderstanding something here

 

[ErenJager]

I initially thought they'd do Classic Sonic too. All you'd have to do is shorten the quills, make the model smaller, remove the voicelines, and do the UI and then you're done.

Smash is video games only. If it were then James Bond would have been in.

I'm not saying it will happen.
I'm not saying it's likely to happen.
I just would not be surprised if it did happen.
The moments there's a trailer for Goku - suddenly all these rules and expectations mean nothing. I saw it with Cloud in Smash 4. Sakurai breaks rules and expectations.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Wait, people were arguing that Isabelle wouldn't work as an echo of Villager because of the height difference, but Classic Sonic could work, even though he's half the size of Modern Sonic? I must be misunderstanding something here

That was what I thought they'd do in my head. Echo fighter rules aren't set in stone yet. Anything can change.

 

[Kuon]

eeeeeeehhhhhhh

Let's not throw the word "deserving" into the mix. Nobody ever deserves to be playable.

You're right, he doesn't deserve to be in the game, but he still seems like a better choice to me than Shadow because of the reasons I gave

 

[Deleted member]

...Y-you sure?

Shooting down human soldiers in the street with real guns...


I mean, whew.

The greatest intro of all time...

 

[Pakky]

????????????????????????????????????

Yeah, but he isn't a cartoon hedgehog taking this as serious as a heart attack.

When I call Shadow uncanny that's what I mean, it's not like say Conker, where everything is a joke.

No this is played up as a serious game for serious men...? And that's awful.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I think that if we're getting a new Sonic character, it's almost definitely going to be Shadow. He has a ton going for him right now.

He's one of the few MIA Assist Trophies that's a popular character, along with Isabelle and Skull Kid, and existing clone fighters all have traits that make Shadow seem more viable. Dark Samus shows that clones can have different animations, which would allow Shadow to use his Air Shoes while sprinting. Chrom shows that clones can have a different move in addition to a different Final Smash, allowing him to maybe use teleport as a recovery move. Lastly, Richter shows that 3rd Party clone fighters are possible in the first place.

I'd be more surprised if anything if we didn't see him make it in as a Sonic clone.

 

[Will]

I saw it with Cloud in Smash 4. Sakurai breaks rules and expectations.

Cloud never broke any "rules"? He was definitely possible, but more a possibility than a probability at the time.

also would like to request the apparent rule list you nagged from Sakurai's closet?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Tails couldn't be Sonic's own echo fighter. He uses his tails to attack and having Tails over Sonic would be wasted potential.

 

[DevaAshera]

But see even that doesn't do anything for Sonic as a series. I'm not saying Sonic has NO good characters. What I am saying is that there are characters that seemingly mean more to the series than Shadow. Eggman, Tails, Knuckles all these guys come to mind before Shadow. Is Shadow a fan favorite? Of course, has he brought anything to the series that's "good"? Not really.

Yeah, but Eggman, Tails, and Knuckles wouldn't quite work as Echo Fighters of Sonic, they have too much potential to be original, Shadow doesn't as much.

...Y-you sure?

Shooting down human soldiers in the street with real guns...


I mean, whew.

Fun Fact: that game came about in that way because Sega got a bunch of requests from fans asking for Sonic to use a gun (no, I don't know why), they thought Shadow would be a better fit for that.

 

[Kuon]

Question, anyone think that since they changed Zelda's appearance to A Link between worlds, they actually have plans to add Hilda into the game? Thinking more about it, Hilda is an excellent character to add as an Echo.

I've been thinking the same thing. If they don't make her an echo, they'll probably give Zelda an alternate costume, since it makes so much sense

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I'm not saying it will happen.
I'm not saying it's likely to happen.
I just would not be surprised if it did happen.
The moments there's a trailer for Goku - suddenly all these rules and expectations mean nothing. I saw it with Cloud in Smash 4. Sakurai breaks rules and expectations.

Pretty sure he'll stick by the rule that you have to originate from a video game to be in Smash.

 

[XenoWarriorX]

No he didn't. Sakurai said nothing like that about 3rd Party characters during any direct, otherwise we wouldn't have Cloud.
He said appearing on a Nintendo console would be nice but isn't a rule, which even then isn't close ties to Nintendo.

Playable isn't important, even then he was one of Generations first really good mods on PC along with Metal Sonic and Amy.

Beyond that, he was a main character in the most loved 3D Sonic game, Sonic Adventure 2, which was also one of the first Sonic games to appear on Nintendo consoles along with Sonic Advance.

As much as I like Classic Sonic, I don't think so. He'd be a little boring as a choice and we don't know if Echoes have to share proportions with the base character yet. Classic Sonic is a head shorter then Sonic with shorter limbs and it's not like you can make him faster or stronger then base Sonic to compensate for that shortcoming, thus making him worse then base Sonic.

I feel the best choices for a Sonic echo are Shadow or Metal Sonic, both have the same proportions as Sonic, can use the same moves, add another character, and are massively popular, though Shadow more so then Metal Sonic. Shadow can share stats while Metal could be faster but weaker or harder to control.

While he certainly didn't say that 3rd party characters, I certainly think he said that Smash Bros was still a celebration of Nintendo and it's franchises.

But honestly, if people really think Goku will be in Smash, the Next character should obviously be Shrek.

And Ultimate really wanted that huge heavy hitter...just purchase the license to use sora. Even though he's probably expensive as heck, he's certainly more appropriate for a game like smash bros.

There's a reason Sakurai put a limit on just "Video game characters." Bringing in Goku would open Pandora's box.

Okay, I'm done for now.