Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wait. Halo is important yet it's protagonist isn't? Besides, Chief could easily be made wildly different from Snake, who while he does have explosives, generally is encouraged not to fight in his games. Plus, Samus contrast, All Banjo really has is nostalgia because people liked two of their 3 games. Meanwhile Halo has novels and Mega Block sets and if I remember correctly, a TV show in the works

Plus it has actual animations, and a very popular fan-made series called Red VS Blue.

But yeah, it's very different gameplay as is, and Snake and Samus were worlds apart in playstyles too. Master Chief at best has some similar weapons he can wield, but... that's it? They can even incorporate that laser sword into his moveset for some attacks as well, and so on.

 

[Cosmic77]

Kind of odd to see 1-2-Switch sell better than ARMS and XC2 when it's considered to be among the worst Nintendo Switch games made.

Keep in mind that 1-2-Switch was a launch title. Lots of people probably picked it up just because the library of games was limited at the time. I'm not sure if either ARMS or Xenoblade will be able to beat it, but both were able to sell a million copies in one month. That's still pretty impressive if you ask me.

In regards to ports, I seriously doubt that every Wii U title will be ported over to the Nintendo Switch (some of them have received 3DS ports). New Super Mario Bros. U was obviously made for the Wii U. Whereas, for Super Mario 3D World, that game has courses that require the GamePad's touch screen and microphone to complete, and one of the biggest aspects of that game is Miiverse stamp collecting.

I was exaggerating when I said every game would be ported. There's no plausible way Game and Wario could be ported to the 3DS or Switch.

Ports in general are becoming tiresome. Between 3DS and Switch ports, Nintendo is overdoing it. I know they're super quick and easy money makers, but I'd really like to see Nintendo start investing more time in developing new installments. Yeah, ports were great for filling in the Switch's empty library for the first year or so, but now we've gotten enough games to where a small library isn't an issue anymore. I just think they should have spaced them out by a few years instead of throwing out every port at once.

 

[Schnee117]

Halo is important in gaming. Master Chief is not. A less interesting Snake is not as good of a character choice as Banjo and Kazooie.

Chief wouldn't even play anything like Snake. The closest he'd have is using a trip mine. That's it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Chief wouldn't even play anything like Snake. The closest he'd have is using a trip mine. That's it.

To be fair he also has grenades. But yeah, Master 'Tank Flipper' Chief would be nothing like Snake

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Wait. Halo is important yet it's protagonist isn't?

Yes. What's strange about that?

And he is just a shooty guy with a possibility for an energy sword. That's not nearly as unique as Banjo and Kazooie.

Yeah, ports were great for filling in the Switch's empty library for the first year or so, but now we've gotten enough games to where a small library isn't an issue anymore. I just think they should have spaced them out by a few years instead of throwing out every port at once.

A lot of people chose not to buy the Wii U but would like to play some of the games on it. I was delaying my purchase of the Switch until a Hyrule Warriors port was announced. It makes sense to get good games off of a failed system and boost sales of their current system.

 

[Schnee117]

To be fair he also has grenades. But yeah, Master 'Tank Flipper' Chief would be nothing like Snake

The moveset I have for him doesn't even have Grenades.
The only similarities to other characters is in the trip mine (Kinda like Snake's down smash) and the Rocket Launcher (Samus' Super Missile).
I purposefully limited it to two weapons (as it is in Halo), his Spartan abilities in Halo 5 and supplementary stuff like armour abilities and equipment. You could easily have the trip mine get replaced by Power Drain or a Bubble Shield too.

Yes. What's strange about that?

That its blatantly wrong.
Halo is important and Chief is the face of the franchise. Every game with him in it has him on the front of the box.
To say Chief isn't important is extremely ridiculous.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I was hoping for something more along the lines of an argument for why a game being important entails its protagonist being important.

As far as your moveset, I think it's really boring and doesn't add anything interesting to the game.

 

[Schnee117]

I was hoping for something more along the lines of an argument for why a game being important entails its protagonist being important.

Its called common sense. You should use it.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Doom is important. Doom protagonist isn't. Minecraft is important. Minecraft protagonist isn't.

 

[Schnee117]

Doom is important. Doom protagonist isn't. Minecraft is important. Minecraft protagonist isn't.

Both are objectively wrong.
Congrats on proving you want to be purposefully obtuse for the sake of it.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Objectively wrong? Educate me.

 

[Cosmic77]

Doom is important. Doom protagonist isn't. Minecraft is important. Minecraft protagonist isn't.

I guess I can kinda see where you're going with Minecraft. Since the game let's you use whatever avatar you want, I'm sure not everyone who knows about Minecraft can tell you who Steve is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess I can kinda see where you're going with Minecraft. Since the game let's you use whatever avatar you want, I'm sure not everyone who knows about Minecraft can tell you who Steve is.

Although it took a while for Steve? to even get a name. He is recognizable as the face, and is an important character, but he's not defined in the same way that Master Chief or even Doomguy is. They both are heavily established, Master Chief far more so, being pretty much defined 100% from the start and in the game's own story as well.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I was hoping for something more along the lines of an argument for why a game being important entails its protagonist being important.

As far as your moveset, I think it's really boring and doesn't add anything interesting to the game.

Well think about it like this. Metal Gear Solid showed games can be similar to movies. Snake's a big part of that. Final Fantasy 7 made JRPGs popular. It's protagonist is a recognizable video game character instead of the protagonists from the 7-ish games beforehand (counting Mystic Quest, that was Europe's first Final Fantasy iirc). Master Chief is recognizable to the point he has discount LEGO and again, novels and a show. It shows the franchise's popularity, alongside the bad ass protagonist people love in the franchise.
That wasn't even a moveset Schnee listed, just a few options you can give Chief to make him stand out. Hell, the Bubble Shield alone is a neat idea as the closest thing Smash has to it is Gardevoir, imagine a Gardevoir you can summon at will, that'd be a cool mechanic for a fighter, Rivals of Aether even implemented this in a way with their NotMarth. As someone who knows jack **** of the franchise, I can see him being a projectile heavy character who tries to keep the enemy away but still has that Plasma Sword for close range attacks

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

That wasn't even a moveset Schnee listed

I was referring to their moveset in their support thread.

And all you did was list some examples of games with important protagonists. You actually also supported the proposition that a game can be important without its protagonist being important by providing me with another example: Final Fantasy (the first in the series).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I was referring to their moveset in their support thread.

And all you did was list some examples of games with important protagonists. You actually also supported the proposition that a game can be important without its protagonist being important by providing me with another example: Final Fantasy (the first in the series).

You didn't mention that, which heavily implied you just glanced at his post and judged on that.
Again. Chief is all over his franchise on the covers of it. People can easily recognize the Mjolnir Armour he wears. Also, Chief actually has character and his games are driven by it and the story. Doomguy has personality but it's subtle and Steve has none. The game is important to gaming as a whole, and the FACE of the franchise is, as a result, important. You're acting like Chief's just a generic soldier in his games.
Actually, it doesn't as Final Fantasy 1 isn't all that important to gaming as a whole. After all, Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior came out first

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I don't know why we have to distinguish Character and series now.

Wii Fit and Animal Crossing don't have engaging protagonists but they got in Smash.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't know why we have to distinguish Character and series now.

Wii Fit and Animal Crossing don't have engaging protagonists but they got in Smash.

They got in despite not having engaging protagonists, because their movesets were interesting. I don't think Master Chief's is.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Doom is important. Doom protagonist isn't. Minecraft is important. Minecraft protagonist isn't.

For one thing, there'd be no game if you didn't have the lead character you play as. That alone is very significant.

Admittedly, I can't speak for Chief's character as I haven't played a Halo game before, but if you go by this logic, characters like Mario, Link and Samus wouldn't be in Smash at all either. Come to think of it, we probably wouldn't have Smash Bros. to begin with if this logic was applied. The only characters in the first entry in the series who weren't the playable lead protagonists of their own respective franchises were Pikachu and Jigglypuff, who are still icons in their own right (Jigglypuff more so at the time of Smash 64's release, IIRC the anime heavily influenced the decision to include her). The whole series started with a crossover showdown between the icons of Nintendo games, most of whom were the main, playable characters of their franchises.

It goes without saying that gameplay is integral to every video game, and what the playable characters can do is usually a pretty big part of that gameplay. Mario's got his athletic abilities and powers up, and SM64 later showed him to be a fairly good physical fighter, Link's got his assortment of items along with his sword, and Samus has her numerous advanced weapons that come with her power suit, including her arm cannon. They all also went on to become the faces of their respective franchises from then on out. Master Chief is in the same boat as them in those regards.

With Doom Guy and Steve, I can kinda see where you're coming from as I know they don't exactly have defined identities, but they're still the playable characters of their games and have, like the others, become icons of their franchises. Even if most players in Minecraft opt to use custom skins, Steve is still the original default skin that remains one of the two defaults today, appears frequently in merchandise (he's featured prominently on the covers of console editions of the game) and I think it's safe to say that you'd have a hard time finding Minecraft players who don't know who Steve is.

 

[Opossum]

Doom is important. Doom protagonist isn't. Minecraft is important. Minecraft protagonist isn't.

Steve as a character has more merchandise based off of him than more than eighty percent of the Nintendo-owned Smash cast. If that's not a sign that Steve is important, I don't know what is.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Steve as a character has more merchandise based off of him than more than eighty percent of the Nintendo-owned Smash cast. If that's not a sign that Steve is important, I don't know what is.

Hello Kitty has more merchandise and way more personality than Steve. Hello Kitty for Smash!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

They got in despite not having engaging protagonists, because their movesets were interesting. I don't think Master Chief's is.

So, lots of high tech sci-fi weaponry is uninteresting.
Yoga poses are interesting.
Well ****, All we have to do is make a movie franchise about yoga and Star Wars will go bankrupt! Your opinion isn't the same as others despite what you're arguing

Hello Kitty has more merchandise and way more personality than Steve. Hello Kitty for Smash!

"Video game character compared to non video game character in a discussion about a video game in which video game characters fight it out! I am very intelligent, mother told me so"

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Hello Kitty has more merchandise and way more personality than Steve. Hello Kitty for Smash!

I mean she was in Super Mario Maker as an amiibo costume, so she already fills the "need to be on a Nintendo console" rule...




...this is heavily sarcastic if you couldn't tell.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

They got in despite not having engaging protagonists, because their movesets were interesting. I don't think Master Chief's is.

That really just boils down to being your opinion, then.

I do personally highly doubt Master Chief has really been on Sakurai's mind, but if he is at some point, Sakurai may see potential in the character and make something that a lot of people would have fun playing with.

 

[Cosmic77]

I feel like this conversation has gone full circle several times.

Honestly, there shouldn't be much of a reason for us to compare the popularity of main protagonists to the popularity of their own games. What we should really be doing is comparing these games to each other. "How does Minecraft stack up against Doom?" "Is Halo more likely than another character from Metal Gear?" That's what will really decide who gets added in Smash.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I feel like this conversation has gone full circle several times.

Honestly, there shouldn't be much of a reason for us to compare the popularity of main protagonists to the popularity of their own games. What we should really be doing is comparing these games to each other. "How does Minecraft stack up against Doom?" "Is Halo more likely than another character from Metal Gear?" That's what will really decide who gets added in Smash.

I feel Minecraft and DOOM hold a better chance against Halo, as both have gotten Nintendo Switch ports, though I do see a lot of potential with Steve, the DOOM Marine, and Master Chief. That being said, I do imagine other third parties like Rayman, Rabbid Mario, Crash Bandicoot, and Banjo & Kazooie would be placed at a higher priority.

Honestly, third parties can go in a number of directions in my opinion, which is why I feel they're extremely difficult to predict. On one hand we may get Rayman as an Ubisoft rep, though we end up getting Rabbid/Rabbid Mario who reps the company as a whole PAC-MAN style, or (my preferred way) we even get both. We could expect indie franchises like Shantae, Shovel Knight, and Freedom Planet to get some representation, when in reality them being indie games in and of themselves denies their inclusion by default. We could expect to only have two or three new third parties, but that number may be even more drastic if we consider Smash 4 has four more third party characters than Brawl. And I don't really think I need to bring up the odd place Bayonetta, Ryu, and Cloud are.

That's my two cents anyway.

 

[Cosmic77]

I feel Minecraft and DOOM hold a better chance against Halo, as both have gotten Nintendo Switch ports, though I do see a lot of potential with Steve, the DOOM Marine, and Master Chief. That being said, I do imagine other third parties like Rayman, Rabbid Mario, Crash Bandicoot, and Banjo & Kazooie would be placed at a higher priority.

Honestly, third parties can go in a number of directions in my opinion, which is why I feel they're extremely difficult to predict. On one hand we may get Rayman as an Ubisoft rep, though we end up getting Rabbid/Rabbid Mario who reps the company as a whole PAC-MAN style, or (my preferred way) we even get both. We could expect indie franchises like Shantae, Shovel Knight, and Freedom Planet to get some representation, when in reality them being indie games in and of themselves denies their inclusion by default. We could expect to only have two or three new third parties, but that number may be even more drastic if we consider Smash 4 has four more third party characters than Brawl. And I don't really think I need to bring up the odd place Bayonetta, Ryu, and Cloud are.

That's my two cents anyway.

I can agree with this. Smash 5 will certainly be an interesting thing to watch. There are so many possible candidates to choose from, but we already have a bunch of third-parties as is. Will we hardly get any new third-parties? Will some characters get scrapped to make room for lots more? Will Nintendo treat us by keeping all six third-parties and adding several more on top?

Regardless of what happens, I have a feeling that we won't come close to guessing the final outcome.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Yoga poses are interesting.

Sakurai thought so.

Honestly, there shouldn't be much of a reason for us to compare the popularity of main protagonists to the popularity of their own games. What we should really be doing is comparing these games to each other. "How does Minecraft stack up against Doom?" "Is Halo more likely than another character from Metal Gear?" That's what will really decide who gets added in Smash.

Am I crazy, or should what character gets in depend more on whom people want to play as or what moves they want to use, not how popular the game is? You're reminding me of the Tetris Block for Smash 4 support.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Sakurai thought so.

That wasn't the reason she was in. She got in due to not being popular despite her games being best sellers. Sakurai didn't see yoga poses and went "GOD I NEED THIS IN MY GAME!", he looked at the character and thought "How do I make you work?" Needless to say, this applies to every character

 

[A Distant Demon]

Hello Kitty has more merchandise and way more personality than Steve. Hello Kitty for Smash!

"I want evidence that one of the most iconic characters in gaming is important"
*gives evidence*
"lol so dumb *uses awful false quivalency that makes no sense*"


If you aren't going to argue in good faith, then maybe take a moment and walk away.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

"I want evidence that one of the most iconic characters in gaming is important"
*gives evidence*
"lol so dumb *uses awful false quivalency that makes no sense*"


If you aren't going to argue in good faith, then maybe take a moment and walk away.

I never conceded that Steve is one of the most iconic characters in gaming. Your strawman there would be begging the question.

Hello Kitty has been in plenty of video games. Is your problem with that example that she didn't originate in a video game? Regardless, my point was that merchandise doesn't entail a character's popularity, e.g., Steve merchandise is basically Minecraft merchandise.

I made a mistake by not defining 'important' to start with, so there's been way too much equivocation. I'm not sure it would be worth clarifying at this point, though.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Am I crazy, or should what character gets in depend more on whom people want to play as or what moves they want to use, not how popular the game is? You're reminding me of the Tetris Block for Smash 4 support.

I'd say both are equally as important. Take Rabbid Mario as an example; Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle is a Switch success, selling over a million copies, even without Japan at the time (and with the game recently released there I imagine those sales will only increase). However, despite the game's success, a lot of people are still denying to purchase the game simply because the Rabbids are present. Personally, I would adore his inclusion, but I can't speak for everyone else. The inverse can also happen. Characters who were unpopular with the community got in Smash anyway because Sakurai saw potential for their moveset. Ice Climber was, at best, a mediocre NES title, and in spite of that the Ice Climbers were included in Melee, having a unique duo mechanic. The same could be said for Mr. Game & Watch, also in Melee, R.O.B. in Brawl, and Wii Fit Trainer in Smash 4. Heck, Jigglypuff could fit this category as well if the anime didn't play a big role in her inclusion.

If Rabbid Mario is considered, weather the popularity of Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle would outweigh the negative reception towards the Rabbids, plus the issue of Rayman, all depends on what Skaurai/the new director thinks of them at the time.

t;ldr Sometimes popularity outweighs moveset potential, and the inverse can happen. Both are very important to selecting a character in Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I never conceded that Steve is one of the most iconic characters in gaming. Your strawman there would be begging the question.

Hello Kitty has been in plenty of video games. Is your problem with that example that she didn't originate in a video game? Regardless, my point was that merchandise doesn't entail a character's popularity, e.g., Steve merchandise is basically Minecraft merchandise.

I made a mistake by not defining 'important' to start with, so there's been way too much equivocation. I'm not sure it would be worth clarifying at this point, though.

Hello Kitty isn't a video game character. Which means breaking literally one of the few rules we outright know of stated by the creator of Smash. If you genuinely feel this is a good argument, go to the corner and think about what you did

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hello Kitty has been in plenty of video games. Is your problem with that example that she didn't originate in a video game? Regardless, my point was that merchandise doesn't entail a character's popularity, e.g., Steve merchandise is basically Minecraft merchandise.

Is Steve has a ton of merchandise and keeps getting more, it's because he sells well since you generally don't make merchandise of things that wouldn't make a profit.

 

[Opossum]

I never conceded that Steve is one of the most iconic characters in gaming. Your strawman there would be begging the question.

Hello Kitty has been in plenty of video games. Is your problem with that example that she didn't originate in a video game? Regardless, my point was that merchandise doesn't entail a character's popularity, e.g., Steve merchandise is basically Minecraft merchandise.

I made a mistake by not defining 'important' to start with, so there's been way too much equivocation. I'm not sure it would be worth clarifying at this point, though.

The rules of supply and demand dictate that they shouldn't be selling something that won't sell well. If merchandise of Steve didn't sell well while other Minecraft merchandise did, they wouldn't make all the Steve stuff. But they do, so it shows that the character himself is popular enough on his own to warrant it.


Edit: Stoopid I swear...

 

[Deleted member]

Lol, someone else got Uninja'd.

 

[Deleted member]

I hear people saying Smash for Switch is going to be a Smash 4 port, and I would prefer a new sequel to be honest. A new sequel with some interesting gimmicks and other things is nice, not a direct Smash 4 port. Subspace Emissary would be nice, but that would take a long time. If Smash for Switch was Smash 5, hopefully they do not cut any characters from Smash 4 and add some more even.

Hello Kitty has more merchandise and way more personality than Steve. Hello Kitty for Smash!

I never conceded that Steve is one of the most iconic characters in gaming. Your strawman there would be begging the question.

Hello Kitty has been in plenty of video games. Is your problem with that example that she didn't originate in a video game? Regardless, my point was that merchandise doesn't entail a character's popularity, e.g., Steve merchandise is basically Minecraft merchandise.

I made a mistake by not defining 'important' to start with, so there's been way too much equivocation. I'm not sure it would be worth clarifying at this point, though.

( gif by A Distant Demon )
Stop. Please.

 

[Lukingordex]

Actually, it doesn't as Final Fantasy 1 isn't all that important to gaming as a whole. After all, Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior came out first

FF1 did save Square from being bankrupt according to Wikipedia though. I think that's kinda important

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Edit: Stoopid I swear...

The way you said it was better, to be fair

 

[PsychoJosh]

"I want evidence that one of the most iconic characters in gaming is important"

Steve is literally NOT either of those things.