Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[RileyXY1]

Just because a game franchise isn't being updated doesn't mean it's necessarily dead...

This actually goes for Mother and F-Zero. Nintendo has shown that, no, franchises don't die. Remember Kid Icarus? Remember how people thought that it was just an NES one off like Ice Climbers and Star Tropics? Remember how in 2013 we got a lovingly crafted 3DS exclusive that revitalized the franchise in 3D and not only was it a good game but it established a new lore and personality for the series and made everybody fall in love with the franchise?

Loz18 has said that some characters are here to promote newer games coming out and I'm sure that we may see an F-Zero game or a Mother Spinoff/Remake in the future.

I don't think that we'll ever see another Earthbound game ever again. Itoi himself said that he was done with the series.

 

[drag0nscythe]

It's a bad comparison because the Mother series was finished ages ago.

Castlevania is an active franchise still.

There's nothing to compare to.

By series? It has been a few years since a real Castlevania game. Granted it seems to be getting momentum now given the Anime and renewed interest.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Frankly, it's not even that I think others will get in, but just the fact we could entertain the idea of it by speculating how other XB2 characters would work that interest me. Speculation isn't always about things that are going to be 100% in, it's fun to talk about character who could give something new & interesting to the roster, ya know?

Sorry that I don't have much Xenoblade to add but first off...

THANK YOU. Speculation isn't about things that we think are likely.

Second off, I much prefer crackpot theories instead of dismissive posts. I know there's certain characters that get me cranky (for logical reasons) but let me mention two examples of people that keep the thread's momentum for me

DaybreakHorizon is probably the most third-party supportive person I've seen and has mentioned some absolutely baffling characters to the average eye, but I don't think he's wrong. At first I thought "lol joker" but I've definitely opened my mind to a possibility of that as DLC.

Zinith with his love of the Yoshi franchise - it's no secret that Yoshi's basically got the shaft (even character and stage wise) and we don't even know why he was given his own icon, but I enjoy seeing ideas from him here and there.

like say what you will about those two (and others similar that didn't get a shout out, for that matter) but at least they bring a breath of fresh air

I've been thinking for a bit and I think I might have overthought the ballot's importance to the roster.

I think you're thinking about the Ballot here and not popularity as a whole. It's a lot to gauge in, but I think you're on the right track, personally.

 

[Idon]

I made a Goemon Support thread.

https://smashboards.com/threads/mys...ar-in-a-video-game-so-why-not-smash-u.457287/

Simon gives me hope. (For DLC atleast) or being an AT. or a trophy. Give us something Sakurai. please.

I always appreciate those that make support threads for unlikely characters. Reminds me that there are fans of every type of game out there.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I've been thinking for a bit and I think I might have overthought the ballot's importance to the roster.

Inklings were an inevitability regardless of the ballot as the latest and most popular Nintendo IP between game launches. I don't know which fits Inkling better as both fit really well.

Ridley and K. Rool are popular picks, which I think is how the ballot ideas became mainstream over the past few days. But we always get a few popular picks: Peach and Bowser, Dedede and Diddy Kong, Little Mac and Villager and now Ridley and K. Rool. Until we get a larger sample size, I don't know if this is totally different.

Simon wasn't a popular pick at all. The second Konami character was always expected to be Bomberman, and Simon didn't become popular until Vergeben started looking legit. What we've been experiencing is the hype-induced confirmation bias. I even recall many people in this thread the night before the direct saying to remember that Simon wasn't predicted until Vergeben. Richter is a unique situation as a third party echo, so I don't know if he was as last minute as the other clones have been. But he was even less popular than Simon.

Chrom was popular from what I can recall, and a lot of the Dark Samus popularity was "well if we can't get Ridley..." pre-E3 2018. We don't know if echoes are last minute additions like in Smash 4 and Melee (given the concept was titled, my theory is that they knew they were going to have more clones, gave them a brand and decided who was going to be one later). Clones don't tend to follow any sort of patterns with preference to popularity or relevancy.

I guess under this lens, I don't find the picks in the GAF leak totally out there. We have the usual few popular picks (now including Isaac, Shadow and Isabelle), and the usual few 'out there' Sakurai picks (Prince Sable stands out like a sore thumb).

Or if that's wrong, maybe we can still get Elma or Gen 7 Pokemon.

The ballot may not be the be-all-end-all, but every unique newcomer character we got so far has been big in terms of popularity with even bonus characters l (Daisy, Chrom and Dark Samus) being in because of popularity. Popularity is definitely a major theme among newcomers. At any rate, to keep the hype train going, I'd expect the likes of K. Rool and Simon to be followed up with someone like, say, Skull Kid or Isabelle.

 

[MainJPW]

Re: Shadow's possible trailer theme; I would prefer not to have Throw It All Away. It's a severely edgy song and doesn't fit his awesomeness anymore. Even I Am (All Of Me) feels way less edgy. And that's saying a lot. Like, some songs in Shadow are edgy, like Almost Dead, but the rest just show how he's an anti-hero, not really true hero or true dark. All Hail Shadow doesn't like a pure hero either. A darker hero. This is his main style, and I love it~

Wasn't even aware of it sounding particularly edgy, I just like the experimental industrial music influences in Shadow's SA2 music style.

It's beat-based electronica and with a bit of industrial, as an example here's KMFDM (industrial rock, some electro-industrial, sometimes industrial metal):

And here's Celldweller which sounds more similar to The Supernatural for Final Chase (also experimental - plays with electronica and industrial rock):

The eerie sounding synth in Throw it All Away, starting at 1:10:

I think gives off a very mysterious and sort of a cosmic vibe, which I think fits Shadow very well given he was this unknown guy with the power to manipulate Chaos and came from outer space essentially.

Spoiler: SA2 Shadow Ending Screen

By far I think this style fits Shadow the most but you know, that's not to say I dislike All Hail Shadow but I'm not a big fan of his music in STH.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Just because a game franchise isn't being updated doesn't mean it's necessarily dead...

This actually goes for Mother and F-Zero. Nintendo has shown that, no, franchises don't die. Remember Kid Icarus? Remember how people thought that it was just an NES one off like Ice Climbers and Star Tropics? Remember how in 2013 we got a lovingly crafted 3DS exclusive that revitalized the franchise in 3D and not only was it a good game but it established a new lore and personality for the series and made everybody fall in love with the franchise?

Loz18 has said that some characters are here to promote newer games coming out and I'm sure that we may see an F-Zero game or a Mother Spinoff/Remake in the future.

Dead, updated... same thing for me. If a franchise hasn't had a game in 15 years and counting, and already has a character in smash, I don't think there's a need to put another character from that series that isn't a clone. Like I said, I'm all for new f zero characters, but they'd need a new game to justify that for me. Same with Earthbound. Like you said, theyd need the Kid Icarus treatment.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I don't think that we'll ever see another Earthbound game ever again. Itoi himself said that he was done with the series.

I think Itoi also said any other dev within Nintendo could take up the mantle if they wanted?

Although, it probably wouldn’t be the same without the Itoi Touch(TM)

 

[Mc.Rad]

I don't think that we'll ever see another Earthbound game ever again. Itoi himself said that he was done with the series.

It doesn't mean that there won't be Spinoffs. They could literally make Spinoff franchises all day. Heck, even the spinoffs could be more popular than the main games like in Persona's case.

Second off, I much prefer crackpot theories instead of dismissive posts. I know there's certain characters that get me cranky (for logical reasons) but let me mention two examples of people that keep the thread's momentum for me

DaybreakHorizon is probably the most third-party supportive person I've seen and has mentioned some absolutely baffling characters to the average eye, but I don't think he's wrong. At first I thought "lol joker" but I've definitely opened my mind to a possibility of that as DLC.

Zinith with his love of the Yoshi franchise - it's no secret that Yoshi's basically got the shaft (even character and stage wise) and we don't even know why he was given his own icon, but I enjoy seeing ideas from him here and there

Dang, I guess this means I'm not doing my job well enough...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

By series? It has been a few years since a real Castlevania game. Granted it seems to be getting momentum now given the Anime and renewed interest.

And that's why it's not a dead series. It's still getting stuff. And no, the Pachinko game is a real Castlevania game. Just a spin-off.

Dead series don't get even spin-off games. Or Manga. Or anything else like that. Those are full-out works created to continue the franchise. F-Zero is completely dead(not finished, just dead), though that could change at some point.

Also, Pac-Man isn't a dead series either, unlike what others are saying. It got new games, a cartoon(despite the quality of it) and is an active franchise. It doesn't get a lot of new games/works/etc. like some series do.

Wasn't even aware of it sounding particularly edgy, I just like the experimental industrial music influences in Shadow's SA2 music style.

It's beat-based electronica and with a bit of industrial, as an example here's KMFDM (industrial rock, some electro-industrial, sometimes industrial metal):

And here's Celldweller which sounds more similar to The Supernatural for Final Chase (also experimental - plays with electronica and industrial rock):

The eerie sounding synth in Throw it All Away, starting at 1:10:

I think gives off a very mysterious and sort of a cosmic vibe, which I think fits Shadow very well given he was this unknown guy with the power to manipulate Chaos and came from outer space essentially.

Spoiler: SA2 Shadow Ending Screen

By far I think this style fits Shadow the most but you know, that's not to say I dislike All Hail Shadow but I'm not a big fan of his music in STH.

The lyrics are edgy as hell. Like, this was always the point of his character. He's meant to be an edgy person. It's the cool factor that made him popular as is. Of course, Shadow's own game exaggerated it quite a bit, though ironically his songs didn't at times(especially the two main ones).

 

[SonicMario]

Tails really can't work given he is shorter than Sonic by a notable amount, has shorter legs, can't use spikes for up throw because he has no quills. not to mention Shadow, even in Sonic games, has always been a clone/echo of Sonic already in games like SA2 and Heroes, so him being an echo for Sonic works far far far more, and would more appropriate for his character than any other echo seen thus far.

I understand, that's kinda why I still feel Shadow is more likely.

But now that we know Echoes can have a few more differences then we thought they could. It's not as impossible as I thought before. I was on the anti-echo Tails side before that last direct because I assumed Echoes would have to be Dark Pit and Lucina styled. Now, even if Tails keeps the Spring allow his flight animation to mimic something like Peach's float to make it work much like how the popular thought should Shadow get in now is Shadow gets something like Mewtwo's teleport.

It's also why I said it would be an upset. It's not as likely as an outcome, but it's a possibility that would pull a rug under the current speculation. (Mii costumes is also kind of a reason I think this has some ground. Tails got a Mii costume, Shadow didn't despite other Assists also getting costumes. Shadow would even arguably make more sense as a Gunner since he actually used guns in his game yet Tails got the nod and with a random cartoon laser gun rather then say his arm cannon from Sonic Battle. And half of our newcomers thus far were Mii Costumes in Smash 4. Shadow and Knuckles getting upgraded in some way while Tails is left in the dust with just the cameo and mii costume again might be strange, though I guess it leaves open the possibility of Tails being DLC even if Shadow does get in. Which I'd be more then happy with.)

I am not saying Tails getting in over Shadow as Sonic's echo is more likely. Just a possibility should things take a different direction then what people currently expect.

 

[Idon]

It doesn't mean that there won't be Spinoffs. They could literally make Spinoff franchises all day. Heck, even the spinoffs could be more popular than the main games like in Persona's case.


Dang, I guess this means I'm not doing my job well enough...

Yeah, just like Persona's case...

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I imagine every character was planned from the beginning. The roster is like, the first thing Sakurai makes.

He says he always adds in echo characters last second so I kind of figure they're adding in echoes as they go. So, I don't think they were necessarily planned.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Well by your logic, Castlevania is also a dead series but we still got Simon — AND Richter!

Also, Punch Out hasn’t had a game since the 2009 Wii release, and we got Little Mac as playable in 4.

I’m just saying

Didn't castlevania have a game in like 2013 though? and currently has a successful show, it's hardly dead.

And having a game in 2009 when smash 4 was planned in 2012 really doesn't make it dead at all

Can we have Fiora from the DLC as a playable character?

Elma with a fiora echo please based sakurai

 

[drag0nscythe]

And that's why it's not a dead series. It's still getting stuff. And no, the Pachinko game is a real Castlevania game. Just a spin-off.

Dead series don't get even spin-off games. Or Manga. Or anything else like that. Those are full-out works created to continue the franchise. F-Zero is completely dead(not finished, just dead), though that could change at some point.

Also, Pac-Man isn't a dead series either, unlike what others are saying. It got new games, a cartoon(despite the quality of it) and is an active franchise. It doesn't get a lot of new games/works/etc. like some series do.


The lyrics are edgy as hell. Like, this was always the point of his character. He's meant to be an edgy person. It's the cool factor that made him popular as is. Of course, Shadow's own game exaggerated it quite a bit, though ironically his songs didn't at times(especially the two main ones).

Hey Goemon's last game was in 2011. And he made a cameo in Super Bomberman R, he is not dead baby. Just on life support.

 

[MainJPW]

The lyrics are edgy as hell. Like, this was always the point of his character. He's meant to be an edgy person. It's the cool factor that made him popular as is. Of course, Shadow's own game exaggerated it quite a bit, though ironically his songs didn't at times(especially the two main ones).

Oh, you're talking about the lyrics? I was talking about the genre of music used for him in SA2. I just like the way his music sounds in that game.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Ok so yeah maybe my comparison was a bit off

But in the end, it’s all on Sakurai to make those decisions. Some people may not agree, but that’s just how it is.

Also, as someone mentioned, spinoffs are also a thing

 

[Pyra]

Watch them announce a new F-Zero and Mother 4 in the next direct because you all are getting heated about dead franchises
Please don't **** on Goemon...

 

[Mc.Rad]

Dead series don't get even spin-off games. Or Manga. Or anything else like that. Those are full-out works created to continue the franchise. F-Zero is completely dead(not finished, just dead), though that could change at some point..

The funny thing is that Mother and F-Zero still get their game's re-released and inclusions in Smash Bros... I just think that there's still a following for the franchise since all it needs is good advertising and promotional material, because F-Zero GX didn't really have any of that at all...

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

i saw sable prince on many smash 4 leaks too, he's been on people's minds for a while as a possible character. He's not some stunning secret revelation that only he knows about.

In general I think Final Fantasy is in much too of of a awkward spot for me to expect seeing anything more from it. (I imagine if they had a FF assist they would have been shown at the direct) And Galacta Knight is too unlikely for me to warrant giving that list the time of day.

The focus on characters seems to lie in the brawl era, as i've said before, and oddly enough porky minch was genuinely popular back then as a request along with masked man. I dont expect Mother characters that aren't echos, but honestly I consider both of them to be characters not to write off completely.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

It doesn't mean that there won't be Spinoffs. They could literally make Spinoff franchises all day. Heck, even the spinoffs could be more popular than the main games like in Persona's case.


Dang, I guess this means I'm not doing my job well enough...

tbf, I only just associated you with an avatar today, and "Vulture from Super Mario 64" is definitely on a list of "lulziest ideas I've heard" LOL. Please keep at that one!

ALSO on that subject, who the heck did the Spheal post? I need to find out. They did such a good job with it that now I love Spheal lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hey Goemon's last game was in 2011. And he made a cameo in Super Bomberman R, he is not dead baby. Just on life support.

I never said anything about Goemon?

Regardless, people need to really stop acting like Dead and Finished are remotely similar. One is intended to end with that game. The other simply couldn't get more games/etc. because things didn't work out.

Oh, you're talking about the lyrics? I was talking about the genre of music used for him in SA2. I just like the way his music sounds in that game.

Yeah, Adventure 2 has tons of great music, though the lyrics are questionable at times. Wild Canyon is a nuff said right there... but yeah, I was referring to Lyrics, as they straight out are a representative of the character if it's their main theme song. Genre of music won't matter in that regard.

 

[Idon]

He says he always adds in echo characters last second so I kind of figure they're adding in echoes as they go. So, I don't think they were necessarily planned.

I'd believe you except Dark Samus has far more effort than any other echo fighter.

She has a different idle, walking, running, air, dodge animations on top of the usual intros and victories. On top of that special unique one-of-a-kind effects were made for all her attacks that aren't simply a blue-reskin of Samus's attacks. That's far more effort and resource put in than even most semi-clones. Practically the only things alike from original Samus are the statistical important effects of her moves.

No, Dark Samus had to have been planned as an echo for a very long time.
And honestly, that's kind of disappointing because I really wanted her to be like Falco.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Didn't castlevania have a game in like 2013 though? and currently has a successful show, it's hardly dead.

And having a game in 2009 when smash 4 was planned in 2012 really doesn't make it dead at all


Elma with a fiora echo please based sakurai

Lots of CastleVania fans want to forget Lords of Shadow, dunno why and I haven't played them outside Mirror of Fate, which was pretty fun and my first CV game lol. There's also the pachinko machines and a mobile game iirc

 

[Pyra]

I hope we get another Konami AT: A pachislot machine

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The funny thing is that Mother and F-Zero still get their game's re-released and inclusions in Smash Bros... I just think that there's still a following for the franchise since all it needs is good advertising and promotional material, because F-Zero GX didn't really have any of that at all...

Re-releases aren't a revival/new game in the series(even a spin-off game in a different genre is a true continuation).

But yeah, it's clear that the series are still relevant for a lot due to these factors. And I'm good with that~

 

[Will]

It ain't a Konami franchise if it doesn't have pachinko or mobile gacha with it.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I never said anything about Goemon?

Regardless, people need to really stop acting like Dead and Finished are remotely similar. One is intended to end with that game. The other simply couldn't get more games/etc. because things didn't work out.


Yeah, Adventure 2 has tons of great music, though the lyrics are questionable at times. Wild Canyon is a nuff said right there... but yeah, I was referring to Lyrics, as they straight out are a representative of the character if it's their main theme song. Genre of music won't matter in that regard.

I know that. Thinking in context of the diacussion. Wonder if cheap mobile games count as a dead franchise? Breath of fire got one. And it sucked!

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I never said anything about Goemon?

Regardless, people need to really stop acting like Dead and Finished are remotely similar. One is intended to end with that game. The other simply couldn't get more games/etc. because things didn't work out.


Yeah, Adventure 2 has tons of great music, though the lyrics are questionable at times. Wild Canyon is a nuff said right there... but yeah, I was referring to Lyrics, as they straight out are a representative of the character if it's their main theme song. Genre of music won't matter in that regard.

I wanna place some emphasis on this right here with regard to F-Zero at least. Wasn’t Nintendo considering outsourcing to another studio to work on a new F-Zero game in 2013, but it fell through?

Anyone got the article with that information? I seem to have lost it

 

[Mc.Rad]

Regardless, people need to really stop acting like Dead and Finished are remotely similar. One is intended to end with that game. The other simply couldn't get more games/etc. because things didn't work out.

I just don't think that Dead Franchises are really a thing unless there's definite proof that they're dead...
Like Zone of the Enders was considered to be super dead for a long time after the horrible handling of the HD versions and now ZOE2 is getting a 4k remaster on the Playstation 4 with VR support.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

So, I was looking over old Sakurai interviews for speculation's sake, and I took a look at the entire Sakurai x Normura interview, and I found an interesting tidbits:

Actually, to provide some background, Super Mario 64 was the impetus for the creation of Kingdom Hearts, so being able to draw Mario made me very happy...If we were to work together, I think I’d leave most everything up to Mr. Sakurai. By the way, do you know what you’re working on after Smash ends?

This has been something I've had in mind for a while, but I believe that Sora is going to be one of, if not the first DLC character. He's one of the few characters who could generate a mass amount of hype both in and out of the community.

Sakurai also acknowledged John Carmack in the same interview, which leads me to believe that Doom Guy is an actual possibility, and we might be sleeping on him.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

WallyPalmer SHOUT OUTS AGAIN for the Spheal echo idea. It's so crazy and not happening probably ever, but, it's made me try to come up with a legit Echo that could actually work well.

I hope we get another Konami AT: A pachislot machine

It ain't a Konami franchise if it doesn't have pachinko or mobile gacha with it.

the pachinko machine from super mario sunshine is our last stage

you all can go home now

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Lots of CastleVania fans want to forget Lords of Shadow, dunno why and I haven't played them outside Mirror of Fate, which was pretty fun and my first CV game lol. There's also the pachinko machines and a mobile game iirc

From what I've heard those games aren't actually bad, they just don't play anything like Castlevania so people I guess tend to ignore them

 

[Pyra]

the pachinko machine from super mario sunshine is our last stage

you all can go home now

Super Mario Sunshine was my favorite Konami game tbh

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I just don't think that Dead Franchises are really a thing unless there's definite proof that they're dead...
Like Zone of the Enders was considered to be super dead for a long time after the horrible handling of the HD versions and now ZOE2 is getting a 4k remaster on the Playstation 4 with VR support.

Dead simply means the franchise has no official new content for a very very long time. But also died due to things like lack of interest or other circumstances. Finished means it wasn't supposed to ever get more stuff. Hence, Mother is finished, F-Zero is dead.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Meanwhile I'd just take a Stranger Things video game in the form an Earthbound style RPG.

But to keep it on subject? I don't see Ninten as an echo.

I also am reluctant to think they'd give Falcon an echo even if he is Mr. Smash Brothers.

 

[Nazyrus]

Ok so yeah maybe my comparison was a bit off

But in the end, it’s all on Sakurai to make those decisions. Some people may not agree, but that’s just how it is.

Also, as someone mentioned, spinoffs are also a thing

and remakes!

 

[Zinith]

Sorry that I don't have much Xenoblade to add but first off...

THANK YOU. Speculation isn't about things that we think are likely.

Second off, I much prefer crackpot theories instead of dismissive posts. I know there's certain characters that get me cranky (for logical reasons) but let me mention two examples of people that keep the thread's momentum for me

DaybreakHorizon is probably the most third-party supportive person I've seen and has mentioned some absolutely baffling characters to the average eye, but I don't think he's wrong. At first I thought "lol joker" but I've definitely opened my mind to a possibility of that as DLC.

Zinith with his love of the Yoshi franchise - it's no secret that Yoshi's basically got the shaft (even character and stage wise) and we don't even know why he was given his own icon, but I enjoy seeing ideas from him here and there.

like say what you will about those two (and others similar that didn't get a shout out, for that matter) but at least they bring a breath of fresh air


I think you're thinking about the Ballot here and not popularity as a whole. It's a lot to gauge in, but I think you're on the right track, personally.

"Passion pays off" I always say

 

[Thirdkoopa]

So, I was looking over old Sakurai interviews for speculation's sake, and I took a look at the entire Sakurai x Normura interview, and I found an interesting tidbits:

This has been something I've had in mind for a while, but I believe that Sora is going to be one of, if not the first DLC character. He's one of the few characters who could generate a mass amount of hype both in and out of the community.

Sakurai also acknowledged John Carmack in the same interview, which leads me to believe that Doom Guy is an actual possibility, and we might be sleeping on him.

Oo I'd like a link.

That said, don't get your hopes up too high obviously (honestly third-parties, or anything not legally owned by Nintendo, is hard to gauge any true idea on), and Disney owns the rights to Sora, which working w/ Square-Enix is already proving tedious. While I don't believe we were shown the final music roster, I do have my reservations when seeing two Final Fantasy songs only thus far, and neither of them being remixes either.

 

[BlueMagician]

I hope we get another Konami AT: A pachislot machine

Sega and Namco would have to put in one as well.