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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Guybrush20X6

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150 days until E3 2018.

My 8 characters with those rules

-Inkling (duh)
-Spring Man (w/Springtron alt)
-Animal Crossing Character
-Dixie Kong
-BotW Link
-Xenoblade 2 protag
-New Pokemon
-New Fire Emblem protag
 

IronTed

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For me:

Inkling
Spring Man
Decidueye (unless we get gen 8 at that point, in which it would be a Pokemon from that gen)
Dixie Kong
New FE protagonist
Paper Mario
Isabella
Rex

Edit: Totally forgot about the no veteran rule. But I still feel Wolf will return. Ditto for Ice Climbers.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Quote 8 newcomers you think are among the most likely, no more no less, with a few rules:
- No veteran
- No third-party
- Only one per series
- New series are allowed
I'll try (in no specific order).
  1. Inkling (Splatoon)
  2. Spring Man (ARMS)
  3. Incineroar unless Gen 8 (Pokemon)
  4. Rex and Pyra/Mythra (Xenoblade) as a two/three-in-one character, thus techincally not breaking your "one per series" rule.
  5. Takamaru (Murasame Castle)
  6. Either Isabelle or Tom Nook (Animal Crossing)
  7. Chibi-Robo (Chibi-Robo)
  8. FE Switch protag if the game is released on time. If not, either Lyn due to popularity or Celica due to Echoes. (Fire Emblem)
 
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Mr. Game + Watch

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Make a list of all the necessary attacks a character needs to have in Smash (like jab, forward tilt, down tilt, etc) then start typing a description of what attack can be used in that position. Try to incorporate unique abilities of the character you're making a moveset for, but don't make the gimmick overly complicated. You don't have to put that much thought into attacks that aren't specials, I mean just look at how many f tilts are simple kicks, but try to make the attacks suit the personality of the character. If you're drawing a blank on a specific move, just let your mind simmer for a bit as you do something else until the inspiration takes hold.

- Isabelle
- Mimikyu
- Rex + Pyra
- Marshal
- Ashley
- Dixie
- Takamaru
- Inkling
Savvy Stylist was close to being on the list but I don't actually have that much confidence in her appearing.

It's not bad. I don't really care for most of them but it's a solid roster. One thing I will say is you're playing it too safe; there not really any 'out-there' characters.
Y'all need to give Isabelle some love though I stg
Thanks

For my top 8 prediction is Captain toad, king k krool, bandana dee, toon Zelda/tetra, decidueye, Ridley, kamek (Yoshi's island), and inklings
 

PsychoJosh

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To be clear, who I think is likely is completely separate from who I actually want in the game.

I think Inkling and an ARMS rep are extremely likely. I don't think Captain Toad or Bandana Dee have a snowball's chance in hell.

I also think we'll see a new NES/Famicom-era rep like Takamaru or Mach Rider.
 
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Opossum

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To be clear, who I think is likely is completely separate from who I actually want in the game.

I think Inkling and an ARMS rep are extremely likely. I don't think Captain Toad or Bandana Dee have a snowball's chance in hell.

I also think we'll see a new NES/Famicom-era rep like Takamaru or Mach Rider.
I can understand Bandanna Dee, but why not Captain Toad? He's made consistent appearances and had his own spin-off game. I'd say that at least counts for something.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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  1. Inkling
  2. Spring Man
  3. Rex (the new X2 character)
  4. Gen 8 Pokémon (or Decidueye if there aren’t any strong Gen 8 contenders)
  5. New FE lord of the month
  6. Rayman
  7. Waluigi
  8. Toss up between Takamaru or Mach Rider
Really this list could change and go in many different ways. Metroid Prime 4, possible new Pikmin, new Pokémon switch game, and other future games could heavily impact this. If Metroid Prime 4 gets a strong character outside of Samus, I would put it at 7.
 
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PsychoJosh

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I can understand Bandanna Dee, but why not Captain Toad? He's made consistent appearances and had his own spin-off game. I'd say that at least counts for something.
So what?

I can understand unique choices and trying to improvise movesets for characters with zero combat capabilities, but Captain Toad is REALLY pushing it. There isn't much there to work with for a moveset, plus there is the fact that he can't even jump, and he's a tertiary character who isn't really that popular outside of a small subset of the Mario fanbase. It's not worth it.
 
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D

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Here's a new thread to freshen up:

Quote 8 newcomers you think are among the most likely, no more no less, with a few rules:
- No veteran
- No third-party
- Only one per series
- New series are allowed

I start with:

- Paper Mario (Mario)
- Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
- Sylux (Metroid)
- Decidueye (Pokémon)
- Rex & Pyra duo (Xenoblade)
- Takamaru (Murasame Castle)
- Inkling (Splatoon)
- Spring Man (ARMS)

Also still looking for someone who's willing to rate my latest roster.
Something I can easily answer! Let's see, now...
  • Celica (Fire Emblem)
  • Inkling (Splatoon)
  • Spring Man (ARMS)
  • Ashley (Wario)
  • Impa (Legend of Zelda)
  • Sawk (ダゲキ, Dageki)* (Pokèmon)
  • Galacta Knight (Kirby)
  • Isabelle (しずえ, Shizue)* (Animal Crossing)

*Notice how I include Japanese names...I am not Japanese myself but those names sound better to me...

I would say Viridi or Toon Zelda but from learning so much by reading this thread for the umpteenth time, their chances are slim to none.

Sayonara :kirby:
 

Zem-raj

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  1. Inkling
  2. King K.Rool (or Dixie Kong)
  3. Spring Man (or Ribbon Girl)
  4. Ridley
  5. Isabelle
  6. Ashley (Wario Ware)
  7. Bandana Dee
  8. Decidueye (or a Pokémon that Game Freak / The Pokémon Company like to advertise)
In no particular order.
 
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Here's a new thread to freshen up:

Quote 8 newcomers you think are among the most likely, no more no less, with a few rules:
- No veteran
- No third-party
- Only one per series
- New series are allowed
Inkling
Rayman
Dixie Kong
Bandana Dee
New Pokemon character
New FE character
New Arms character
New Zenoblade character
 
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Opossum

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So what?

I can understand unique choices and trying to improvise movesets for characters with zero combat capabilities, but Captain Toad is REALLY pushing it. There isn't much there to work with for a moveset, plus there is the fact that he can't even jump, and he's a tertiary character who isn't really that popular outside of a small subset of the Mario fanbase. It's not worth it.
The guy has a pickaxe that can be used for a lot of his normals and his neutral or side special (based on Treasure Tracker's pickaxe charge power up). His headlamp might be used as a down special to blind and stun the foe for a moment, allowing him to strike without worry.

The Toads as a species have an established connection to mushrooms, so he could utilize certain mushroom based abilities by pulling one out of his backpack, including having some spring mushrooms appear beneath him to give him some short jumps (which, considering some of the unique effects on fighters like Bayonetta, isn't unheard of). He could also have a variation of Peach's turnip pluck, where his are more powerful over all, but are faceless and don't have special properties.

For uniqueness, he could be the smallest heavyweight on the roster, being weighed down by his backpack, but he can get lighter and more agile the more he uses moves that involve taking an item out of his backpack.

There are several different ways you can incorporate Captain Toad as a fighter. And he's a Toad, which people have been wanting for a long while. And I'd say even a tertiary Mario character has more casual appeal than even someone like Fox or Samus, honestly,
 

Luminario

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So what?

I can understand unique choices and trying to improvise movesets for characters with zero combat capabilities, but Captain Toad is REALLY pushing it. There isn't much there to work with for a moveset, plus there is the fact that he can't even jump, and he's a tertiary character who isn't really that popular outside of a small subset of the Mario fanbase. It's not worth it.
It's more along the lines that he's Captain Toad. Toads are a pretty noticable part of the Mario universe, and Cpt Toad can potentially bring to the table everything Toad can do too. He can just be more land-based, like Little Mac.

edit::4greninja:'d
 
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N3ON

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8. Rex and/or Pyra
7. BotW Champion
6. Chorus Dudes/other RH character
5. New FE
4. New Pokemon
3. Spring-Man
2. Isabelle
1. Inkling

A boring list, if you ask me.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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So what?

I can understand unique choices and trying to improvise movesets for characters with zero combat capabilities, but Captain Toad is REALLY pushing it. There isn't much there to work with for a moveset, plus there is the fact that he can't even jump, and he's a tertiary character who isn't really that popular outside of a small subset of the Mario fanbase. It's not worth it.
Maybe I’m echoing from Oppo said in his above post but I don’t think you really presented valid reasoning for Cap Toad to not be included. Link never jumped until BoTW. Neither did Captain Falcon, Olimar, DHD, Zelda, Ness, Lucas, etc. The fact he doesn’t jump in his game is little consequence of having him included.

People said the same thing about Villager in regards to movesets. Even Ryu and Little Mac had resistance due to a fighting-based move set not translating right into Smash. If someone can give Cap Toad a moveset, it’s the people working on smash. And there are some good movesets for the guy floating around the internet.

In terms of popularity, he’s one of the more notable contenders for a Mario franchise spot and technically is next in line. Popularity is important but look at characters like Wii fit Trainer, Rosalina, Greninja, and DHD - they had very little support and popularity merit before they were announced.

I’m not a Cap Toad supporter by any means but I think your argument doesn’t hold up well. Smash 4 changed the entire argument that a character has to have figuring potential, popularity, and iconic merit in order to be included. Your argument would of been logical Pre Smash 4 but post-smash 4 speculation is an entirely different ball game in my opinion.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Maybe I’m echoing from Oppo said in his above post but I don’t think you really presented valid reasoning for Cap Toad to not be included. Link never jumped until BoTW. Neither did Captain Falcon. People said the same thing about Villager in regards to movesets. Even Ryu and Little Mac had resistance due to a fighting-based move set not translating right into Smash. If someone can give Cap Toad a moveset, it’s the people working on smash. And there are some good movesets for the guy floating around the internet. In terms of popularity, he’s one of the more notable contenders for a Mario franchise spot and technically is next in line. Popularity is important but look at characters like Wii fit Trainer, Rosalina, Greninja, and DHD - they had very little support and popularity merit before they were announced.

I’m not a Cap Toad supporter by any means but I think your argument doesn’t hold up well. Smash 4 changed the entire argument that a character has to have figuring potential, popularity, and iconic merit in order to be included. Your argument would of been logical Pre Smash 4 but post-smash 4 speculation is an entirely different ball game in my opinion.
...Uh, while I agree with your key point, Link did jump in Zelda II and via the Roc's Feather/Roc's Cape in later games(and technically could jump off cliffs into a jumping animation in OOT as well as some older Zelda games).
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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...Uh, while I agree with your key point, Link did jump in Zelda II and via the Roc's Feather/Roc's Cape in later games(and technically could jump off cliffs into a jumping animation in OOT as well as some older Zelda games).
Yet it wasn’t a major factor within gameplay. Jumping didn’t become a major gameplay function until BoTW. Anyways, I failed to remember that he was able to jump in that game though. Jumping wasn’t something that was attributed to Link being Link.

Side thought. Didn’t Toad jump in SMBII. Cap Toad is technically a Toad so couldn’t he jump then?
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yet it wasn’t a major factor within gameplay. Jumping didn’t become a major gameplay function until BoTW. I failed to remember that he was able to jump in that game though.

Side thought. Didn’t Toad jump in SMBII. Cap Toad is technically a Toad so couldn’t he jump then?
It's simply Captain Toad's backpack weighing him down, if I remember right.

Nothing suggests he lacks a literal ability to jump, from again, what I remember. Just a gameplay-specific thing, or story reasons?

Although to be fair, the "cliff-jumping" thing has been around since ALTTP. It's very common. Zelda 1 nor 2 had it. It's prevalent in the 3D games in place of a regular jump option.
 
D

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So what?

I can understand unique choices and trying to improvise movesets for characters with zero combat capabilities, but Captain Toad is REALLY pushing it. There isn't much there to work with for a moveset, plus there is the fact that he can't even jump, and he's a tertiary character who isn't really that popular outside of a small subset of the Mario fanbase. It's not worth it.
I would actually like Captain Toad. People have been requesting for Toad since Brawl times, so Captain Toad would be a great addition. He also has a lot of utility and creative options on his move-set, which I like. The "don't jump" excuse is lame in my opinion, and The Stoopid Unikorn The Stoopid Unikorn said why.
Neither can Olimar/Alph and that didn't stop them.
Captain Toad for Smash for Switch :p.
 

Strider_Bond00J

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Here's a new thread to freshen up:

Quote 8 newcomers you think are among the most likely, no more no less, with a few rules:
- No veteran
- No third-party
- Only one per series
- New series are allowed

I start with:

- Paper Mario (Mario)
- Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong)
- Sylux (Metroid)
- Decidueye (Pokémon)
- Rex & Pyra duo (Xenoblade)
- Takamaru (Murasame Castle)
- Inkling (Splatoon)
- Spring Man (ARMS)

Also still looking for someone who's willing to rate my latest roster.
So 8 first-party newcomers you say? Alright, I'm game:
1: Inkling (Splatoon)
2: Rex and/or Pyra (Xenoblade Chronicles 2)
3: Spring-Man (ARMS)
4: Dixie Kong (Donkey Kong Country)
5: A Breath of the Wild character - likely to be one of the Champions.
6: A new Fire Emblem Character (Either the protagonist of the next Fire Emblem game, Alm or Celica from Shadows of Valentia or upgrading Lyn to playable)
7: A Pokémon from Sun and Moon
8: Sylux (Metroid - Depending on what role it; if it has one at all - will play in Metroid Prime 4)

If I were to add two personal choices as extras, I'd say Isaac from Golden Sun and Takamaru from The Mysterious Murasame Castle.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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It's simply Captain Toad's backpack weighing him down, if I remember right.

Nothing suggests he lacks a literal ability to jump, from again, what I remember. Just a gameplay-specific thing, or story reasons?

Although to be fair, the "cliff-jumping" thing has been around since ALTTP. It's very common. Zelda 1 nor 2 had it. It's prevalent in the 3D games in place of a regular jump option.
Perhaps that could work into a moveset idea. He can backpack items, projectiles, and other objects like Villager but can’t used later. Instead, it weighs him down thus increasing launch resistance and falling speed but reducing his jump and sped ability. Further more, back-pack based attacks are also increased in damage. Toad can throw the objects away which are destroyed which then lightens his load.
 

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Just give Captain Toad special jump animations if it's that important

First jump, a spring appears from under the ground to boost him the air

Second jump, a little parachute can appear out his backpack to give him a small boost

Third jump can involve a rope or cannon.



Also Bandana Dee doesn't have much reason not to be in Smash at this point.
 

Opossum

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Just give Captain Toad special jump animations if it's that important

First jump, a spring appears from under the ground to boost him the air

Second jump, a little parachute can appear out his backpack to give him a small boost

Third jump can involve a rope or cannon.



Also Bandana Dee doesn't have much reason not to be in Smash at this point.
Honestly part of me kind of believes the Sakurai bias stuff with Dee. The fact that the only new Kirby stages in Smash 4 were from older Kirby games, to the point that Sakurai went with a stage for Woolly World over Epic Yarn despite the former being several years off, kind of says a lot.

Literally the only major post-Sakurai Kirby content we had was Kirby's Ultra Sword Final Smash, but even that's incredibly minor. Bandanna Dee didn't even get a trophy.

Like, I give ballot conspirators all sorts of grief, but this is honestly something I can at least see as plausible, considering the Kirby series is Sakurai's baby. And that's from someone who'd love to see Bandanna Dee. :/
 

Blackwolf666

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You're enititled to your opinion of course, and your stance is understandable but, think about it what is the one real reason you buy a new Smash? It's still basically the same game as the last just with added new characters and modes. So, really, you're buying the same exact game everytime anyways. Just with more modes and/or characters. Most people, MOST, don't buy the game for the mechanics.

And you can't really make the statement that the gameplay will be different because more likely than not the feel of the next new game will be VERY similar to 4 considering how, generally, well received it was in that department. So, what I'm asking is, what's the REAL difference between a new game and an updated port? The novelty of it being built from the ground up?
First, just want to say sorry for the late reply. Sleep, work and the such got in my way.

Personally, I enjoy the experience of playing a new smash. I suppose the reason I want a new game is the same reason I'd want a new game in any fighting game series.

Now here's a text brick with things besides more modes and characters.

That feeling of freshness once you start the game for the first time, a new look and feel, stopping for a moment to appreciate the graphical advancements that were made, the feeling that your on the next generation, discovering all the changes in moves and how to properly utilize them, finding a new toy within the new moves to play with, the small changes in certain characters that make you want to pick them up even if you had no interest in them on the previous installment, new game play mechanics to toy around with, those little touches that take elements from other Nintendo games, that change of pace from the last smash game, etc.

I'm the type of player that likes experimenting with several different characters and them having new elements to their attacks is very appealing to me. However if a larger number of new characters were added in place of that it'd give me something else that I can see myself dig into. At the moment that is the only thing I can think of that'd make me jump on board with a smash DX.
 

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plus there is the fact that he can't even jump,
If we counted the amount of characters who gained an ability to function in Smash Bros...

Well... it'd be half the roster.
 
D

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I see a lot of people saying that a Smash port is more likely than ever. Personally, I think it's the opposite. Although ports are great for quickly pumping out some "new" games and getting easy cash, they hurt the sales of future games. Take Mario Kart for example. If Nintendo were to release a new Mario Kart this upcoming Fall, do you think it would sell just as well if they didn't release MK8D as one of the first Switch games? Probably not; the game would likely have sold much more. Now I'm not saying MK8D was a bad decision, because it wasn't. Clearly Nintendo didn't have many games planned for the first few months of the Switch, so a port of a popular game like Mario Kart would hold everyone over until new games arrived (Same thing can be applied to Tropical Freeze and Hyrule Warriors while we wait for Pokemon and Metroid Prime 4.) Unfortunately, this port puts the future of the Mario Kart series in an awkward position. If another MK game is released too close to the port, sales will be effected. If it gets released too close to the end of the Switch's lifespan, the interest in the console won't be as strong. Seeing how the Switch is about to turn a year old and we still don't even know if a new MK game is in the works, imagine what would happen if Nintendo were to release a Smash port somewhere in between July 2018 and December 2018. Unless they don't have any plans for making Smash Switch, it would seem like a poor decision at this point.
Mario Kart's situation is different from Smash because a port got released near the beginning of the console's lifecycle and there is still four or five years left before the next console hits. The sub-franchise typically gets two console entries per generation and as of 2001, we have never gone over three years for another installment. This will be the first time since Mario Kart: Super Circuit that it took more than three years to get a full installment but this is because, as you said, we got an enhanced port on the Switch. Also remember that during the 7th generations, some of the best selling games came during the last year or so before the PS4 and Xbox One arrived. Grand Theft Auto V immediately comes to mind which is one of the top-10 best selling games ever. There will be a Mario Kart 9 because enough time will lapse for a new installment and it's not also as tied to previous directors as Sakurai is to Smash.

I've had an inkling for a long while that we're not going to see a new Smash game with the Switch and with Tropical Freeze - which needed one - and Hyrule Warrior - which didn't - I think I might be right. 2014 and later ports are still possible to port over in the future and we have to remember that the Wii U bombed. With the Switch's outstanding success, that means there are millions of potential Smash fans who have never gotten the chance to play at least the Wii U version of the game, which has the best multiplayer component of the two version. The amount of people who are going to buy a Smash Switch port is larger than what people think, definitely more than five million people will get a Smash 4 Deluxe with sixty-four characters with no cuts, more stages, contents from both 3DS & Wii U, and the potential to tie it in with a hypothetically revamped online server. They can advertise it as a new game without the work of a new one. Most importantly, Sakurai wants a break from this franchise and he's going to make a new game before he comes back (if that) and he doesn't have Iwata to push him into making a new game when he doesn't feel like it. Nintendo just wanted Melee with online back with the Wii and who's to say all they want isn't just an expansion of Smash 3DS & Wii U, a game that's already fixed up?

I predict that we're just getting a "Smash 4 Deluxe" port this gen with an announcement by E3 and the next Smash game will be on the next console by a new director with Sakurai consulting him.
 
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PsychoJosh

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The guy has a pickaxe that can be used for a lot of his normals and his neutral or side special (based on Treasure Tracker's pickaxe charge power up). His headlamp might be used as a down special to blind and stun the foe for a moment, allowing him to strike without worry.

The Toads as a species have an established connection to mushrooms, so he could utilize certain mushroom based abilities by pulling one out of his backpack, including having some spring mushrooms appear beneath him to give him some short jumps (which, considering some of the unique effects on fighters like Bayonetta, isn't unheard of). He could also have a variation of Peach's turnip pluck, where his are more powerful over all, but are faceless and don't have special properties.

For uniqueness, he could be the smallest heavyweight on the roster, being weighed down by his backpack, but he can get lighter and more agile the more he uses moves that involve taking an item out of his backpack.

There are several different ways you can incorporate Captain Toad as a fighter. And he's a Toad, which people have been wanting for a long while. And I'd say even a tertiary Mario character has more casual appeal than even someone like Fox or Samus, honestly,
That all sounds incredibly boring and simplistic. And the pickaxe is literally just the hammer item.

I really don't see him as anything more than Assist Trophy material.

Maybe I’m echoing from Oppo said in his above post but I don’t think you really presented valid reasoning for Cap Toad to not be included. Link never jumped until BoTW. Neither did Captain Falcon, Olimar, DHD, Zelda, Ness, Lucas, etc. The fact he doesn’t jump in his game is little consequence of having him included.

People said the same thing about Villager in regards to movesets. Even Ryu and Little Mac had resistance due to a fighting-based move set not translating right into Smash. If someone can give Cap Toad a moveset, it’s the people working on smash. And there are some good movesets for the guy floating around the internet.

In terms of popularity, he’s one of the more notable contenders for a Mario franchise spot and technically is next in line. Popularity is important but look at characters like Wii fit Trainer, Rosalina, Greninja, and DHD - they had very little support and popularity merit before they were announced.

I’m not a Cap Toad supporter by any means but I think your argument doesn’t hold up well. Smash 4 changed the entire argument that a character has to have figuring potential, popularity, and iconic merit in order to be included. Your argument would of been logical Pre Smash 4 but post-smash 4 speculation is an entirely different ball game in my opinion.
I don't think you're getting my point, which is that movesets have to be exciting and work well in a fighting context. They can't merely "function", they have to give a reason for people to want to play the character outside of merely pandering to his source material. Little Mac is obviously popular in the west because he's a boxer and the closest thing to a raw fighting shonen protagonist in the game. Where did you hear that Ryu and Mac had resistance because "a fighting game moveset wouldn't work in Smash"? I've never seen ANY such resistance to them being in Smash, and it honestly sounds like you completely made this up just to have a talking point. A fighting moveset doesn't translate well to a game where characters fight each other, but a moveset based on a character who can't even jump in his original game does? I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard.

Also, it's not merely the fact that Captain Toad can't jump, but it's that they go out of their way to point out that he can't jump. They designed his inability to jump as a specific character/gameplay trait of his - something intrinsically tied to the character, as one of his "abilities". None of those other characters you mentioned ever had such a restriction. No one said they can't jump, it's just that jumping wasn't really a big part of their games, so they never really did it. And your comment isn't entirely accurate either - Link did utilize jumping in Link's Awakening and Link to the Past, and DHD also naturally jumped into the bushes at the start of a round. You have to understand there's a stark difference between merely not utilizing the ability to jump, and actually being totally unable to jump as a planned, designed part of your character. I get that they could just toss this aspect of him out the window and make him able to jump regardless, but if even his ability to jump has to be debated upon, I just don't see why people think he's interesting or has any potential as a newcomer. He looks and sounds completely boring.

Finally where did you get the idea that Rosalina had very little support? She is EXTREMELY popular and a natural addition to the Mario side of the roster. DHD was a great NES-era pick for fanservice sake, and Greninja was a shoe-in because in addition to being a mainstay of the anime, everyone knew that gen 6 had to be represented in some way by a starter evolution. This is also why I think the next Smash game is guaranteed to have Decidueye or Incineroar. The only one I kind of agree with you on is Wii Fit Trainer as she was both poorly supported and poorly received, but still, that's one out of four.
 
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Dragoncharystary

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Honestly part of me kind of believes the Sakurai bias stuff with Dee. The fact that the only new Kirby stages in Smash 4 were from older Kirby games, to the point that Sakurai went with a stage for Woolly World over Epic Yarn despite the former being several years off, kind of says a lot.

Literally the only major post-Sakurai Kirby content we had was Kirby's Ultra Sword Final Smash, but even that's incredibly minor. Bandanna Dee didn't even get a trophy.

Like, I give ballot conspirators all sorts of grief, but this is honestly something I can at least see as plausible, considering the Kirby series is Sakurai's baby. And that's from someone who'd love to see Bandanna Dee. :/
I definitely agree with you there man. I would love to see Bandanna Dee in Smash as well and he's clearly the next in line and most obvious choice for a kirby newcomer but I think it's honestly more likely we'd get a kirby newcomer from an older game like that painter girl from the crystal shards (forgot her name). Though Bandanna Dee did debut in Kirby Super Star in an incredibly minor role so I guess there's that.
 
D

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Decidueye (or a Pokémon that Game Freak / The Pokémon Company like to advertise)
At the risk of sounding like I'm "attacking" Decidueye again, I have one question.
Literally aside from Pokken, where are Game Freak/TPC advertising it?

This is a legitimate question.

If we counted the amount of characters who gained an ability to function in Smash Bros...

Well... it'd be half the roster.
Devil's Advocate: None of those abilities go against defining traits of the characters in question nor are they abilities that the characters are literally incapable of doing in the home series.
 
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D

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Honestly part of me kind of believes the Sakurai bias stuff with Dee. The fact that the only new Kirby stages in Smash 4 were from older Kirby games, to the point that Sakurai went with a stage for Woolly World over Epic Yarn despite the former being several years off, kind of says a lot.

Literally the only major post-Sakurai Kirby content we had was Kirby's Ultra Sword Final Smash, but even that's incredibly minor. Bandanna Dee didn't even get a trophy.

Like, I give ballot conspirators all sorts of grief, but this is honestly something I can at least see as plausible, considering the Kirby series is Sakurai's baby. And that's from someone who'd love to see Bandanna Dee. :/
I 100% agree with this. There are so many creative Kirby stage options, it honestly bothers me why there are not any ones.
I mean look at all of the depth, color and creativity are in these Kirby games! I took random images of Kirby places and put them here.
Bandanna Dee would be my top Kirby character pick, and tons of fans want him. Sakurai is the creator of Kirby, so why is he not here? :(.
 
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The way I see it, Smash isn't canon and frequently stops caring for it for when the need arises.

And the whole point of "captain toad can't jump" is basically a just a story explanation. Captain toad levels with jumps would be stupid easy.

Cancel out a mechanic explanation for why he can't jump with a mechanic explanation of why he needs to be able to jump (packed light for instance).



Wouldn't be the first made up thing in smash for a mechanic explanation
:061:
 

NintenRob

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Honestly part of me kind of believes the Sakurai bias stuff with Dee. The fact that the only new Kirby stages in Smash 4 were from older Kirby games, to the point that Sakurai went with a stage for Woolly World over Epic Yarn despite the former being several years off, kind of says a lot.

Literally the only major post-Sakurai Kirby content we had was Kirby's Ultra Sword Final Smash, but even that's incredibly minor. Bandanna Dee didn't even get a trophy.

Like, I give ballot conspirators all sorts of grief, but this is honestly something I can at least see as plausible, considering the Kirby series is Sakurai's baby. And that's from someone who'd love to see Bandanna Dee. :/
I think you and I see the epic yarn stage as different meanings

To me, it shows he's willing to use content post his era. It's just that Woolly World got announced and he usually prefers to use more recent stuff. Plus it gave Yoshi a more unique stage, something Kirby doesn't struggle with.

I think Great Cave offensive was just something the epic yarn stage could easily translate into, I think Samurai said great cave was originally the epic yarn stage, not woolly World. Could be wrong there.

Plus Bandana has more to his name now and is more established as the 4th wheel.
 

Louie G.

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Hey all, it's been a while. Nice to see speculation is starting up again, I've missed this.
Don't really have much to say about it honestly, my expectation is Inkling and Spring Man at the moment and other than that I'm open to pretty much anything. Smash 4 surprised me time and time again so I'm ready for the same to happen next time around. Always fun to throw in my two cents though!

Captain Toad would be a very welcome addition , I don't think the no jumping argument is very valid, I feel that the point can easily be made by having Captain Toad's aerial mobility be less than ideal. Maybe some really strong aerials with heavy ending lag, rewarding if you can hit them but you're probably better off staying grounded.
 

N3ON

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That all sounds incredibly boring and simplistic. And the pickaxe is literally just the hammer item.

I really don't see him as anything more than Assist Trophy material.
It's a good thing Sakurai's creative prowess exceeds that of many fans then. This wouldn't be the first "I think they'd be boring" argument Sakurai has rebuked.

I don't think you're getting my point, which is that movesets have to be exciting and work well in a fighting context. They can't merely "function", they have to give a reason for people to want to play the character outside of merely pandering to his source material.
As with all claims about a character lacking originality, a quick and open-minded search for fan movesets would likely dispel such notions.

Little Mac is obviously popular in the west because he's a boxer and the closest thing to a raw fighting shonen protagonist in the game.
Little Mac was mostly popular because Punch-Out is popular. Little Mac is himself a purposely vanilla character in concept. But of course, to each their own.

Where did you hear that Ryu and Mac had resistance because "a fighting game moveset wouldn't work in Smash"? I've never seen ANY such resistance to them being in Smash, and it honestly sounds like you completely made this up just to have a talking point.
Shoulda paid attention to prior to their inclusions, it was very much a thing.

A fighting moveset doesn't translate well to a game where characters fight each other, but a moveset based on a character who can't even jump in his original game does? I'm sorry but that's the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard.
You're only negating your own points here by proving past arguments about lacking character potential ending up being worthless.

Also, it's not merely the fact that Captain Toad can't jump, but it's that they go out of their way to point out that he can't jump. They designed his inability to jump as a specific character/gameplay trait of his - something intrinsically tied to the character, as one of his "abilities". None of those other characters you mentioned ever had such a restriction. No one said they can't jump, it's just that jumping wasn't really a big part of their games, so they never really did it. And your comment isn't entirely accurate either - Link did utilize jumping in Link's Awakening and Link to the Past, and DHD also naturally jumped into the bushes at the start of a round. You have to understand there's a stark difference between merely not utilizing the ability to jump, and actually being totally unable to jump as a planned, designed part of your character. I get that they could just toss this aspect of him out the window and make him able to jump regardless, but if even his ability to jump has to be debated upon, I just don't see why people think he's interesting or has any potential as a newcomer. He looks and sounds completely boring.
Sonic can't swim.

Finally where did you get the idea that Rosalina had very little support? She is EXTREMELY popular and a natural addition to the Mario side of the roster. DHD was a great NES-era pick for fanservice sake, and Greninja was a shoe-in because in addition to being a mainstay of the anime, everyone knew that gen 6 had to be represented in some way by a starter evolution. This is also why I think the next Smash game is guaranteed to have Decidueye or Incineroar. The only one I kind of agree with you on is Wii Fit Trainer as she was both poorly supported and poorly received, but still, that's one out of four.
Come off it. Rosalina's popularity, while existent, was inferior to that of Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Toad, and Waluigi. Go to past polls and check. Even her primary supporter on here in those days, Mario & Sonic Guy, didn't anticipate her.

And Greninja being a shoo-in is most magnificent piece of revisionist history I might've ever heard. People didn't even think we'd get a solo starter Pokemon before his joint reveal with Charizard.
 
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Louie G.

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Nice to see some things haven't changed.

Also it is HILARIOUS to me that people think Greninja was a shoo-in. Could not be further from the truth, we were all shocked and didn't really think any Gen 6 Pokemon stood above as a particularly notable possibility. Should be interesting hearing what people have to say about Smash 4's additions having lived through the whole process, feels odd knowing I'm a veteran now.
 

N3ON

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Nice to see some things haven't changed.

Also it is HILARIOUS to me that people think Greninja was a shoo-in. Could not be further from the truth, we were all shocked and didn't really think any Gen 6 Pokemon stood above as a particularly notable possibility. Should be interesting hearing what people have to say about Smash 4's additions having lived through the whole process, feels odd knowing I'm a veteran now.
At this rate I will be here arguing about trivialities until my fingers fall off. xD

Nice to see you back though, Louie. :)
 
D

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Can we just have Waluigi as a "Mario Tennis" character using his Aces outfit as the default costume instead?



.....please....? ;_;
 
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NintenRob

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It's a good thing Sakurai's creative prowess exceeds that of many fans then. This wouldn't be the first "I think they'd be boring" argument Sakurai has rebuked.


As with all claims about a character lacking originality, a quick and open-minded search for fan movesets would likely dispel such notions.


Little Mac was mostly popular because Punch-Out is popular. Little Mac is himself a purposely vanilla character in concept. But of course, to each their own.


Shoulda paid attention to prior to their inclusions, it was very much a thing.


You're only negating your own points here by proving past arguments about lacking character potential ending up being worthless.


Sonic can't swim.


Come off it. Rosalina's popularity, while existent, was inferior to that of Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, Toad, and Waluigi. Go to past polls and check. Even her primary supporter on here in those days, Mario & Sonic Guy, didn't anticipate her.

And Greninja being a shoo-in is most magnificent piece of revisionist history I might've ever heard. People didn't even think we'd get a solo starter Pokemon before his joint reveal with Charizard.
Rosalina may not have been anticipated for Smash. But she was always very popular. And her Smash popularity BLEW UP when she was shown for 3D world.

I agree about Greninja though, while he was one of my most wanted, I only really expected him with a Kalos Trainer. In my experience, most people only really included the Brawl4 Pokemon characters and Mewtwo on their rosters.
 
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