Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Guh-Huzzah!]

So, whats the dumbest thing that happened when you played a game.
On Minecraft, I got kicked from a server for Wearing a Wario Skin.
What's wrong with that? xD

 

[StarDustStorm]

Too new? Too NEW?!?

Do you realize that Roy's first debut in ANY video game is Melee? Therefore he shouldn't have been in that game because he's "too new"


Your argument isn't really helping with this case bruh. Octolings can make an exception if Sakurai allows it or move them to DLC

Like how Corrin was very new back in Sm4sh even if his game released after but he actually included him because of a possible unique moveset by the Fates developers?

 

[osby]

If a character can work as an alternate they can work as an echo.

Eh, I doubt you can make a clone of any fighter. Echoes have little differences but I imagine base character still needs to be somewhat basic.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Roy was added solely as game promotion.

...and? That's your argument?

Like how Corrin was very new back in Sm4sh even if his game released after but he actually included him because of a possible unique moveset by the Fates developers?

Pretty much yes. If Corrin can hit DLC, I don't see how Octolings can't

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So, whats the dumbest thing that happened when you played a game.
On Minecraft, I got kicked from a server for Wearing a Wario Skin.
What's wrong with that? xD

Got kicked from Team Fortress 2 for trying to play Team Fortress 2.

 

[Mutsukki]

I mean, you basically need to do the same with every palette swap already in the play testing
department right? the trophy point doesn't exactly work that well I feel because if they're an alt they'd get a trophy too

Palette swaps don't need balancing neither extensive testing, but I forgot that Alph had a trophy, you're right.

Hey, you just helped prove my point. By saying that those characters could, in theory still be alternate costumes shows that saying an Alternate Costume will work but an Echo won't is Hypocritical. The little bit of work as said by Sakurai is nothing compared to a full character. If he can do it and he feels like tha fans want it he'll do it. Echoes are very much glorified alternate costumes with just a few changes to animation which by the way takes barely any time at all when you have a complete bone structure to work off of. Saying Alph cant be an Echo but can be an Alternate is wrong because if Sakurai wanted to he could make Alph an echo. No big deal. If Sakurai thought that Lucina would work just as well as an alternate costume he could leave her that way. No big deal. If a character can work as an alternate they can work as an echo.

I don't think you're understanding my point. I never said they can't, I'm saying I'd personally feel like that would not be something I'd care about if they were anything other than an alt, because I feel they're barely unique comparing to Inklings, even less unique than all of the alts and echoes we currently have in the game. But sure, if Sakurai wants they absolutely can be in the game as an Echo, of course. The point I was making is that there's zero things hypocritical about feeling a character is more akin to an alt costume than a full fledged echo fighter, they still have different tiers of relevancy.

EDIT: If you truly want to catch me being hypocritical just wait till I support Ninten being in Smash as an Echo, even though right now, aside from the fact that it'd be neat to have all 3 Mother protagonists, I also don't see how he could be very different from Ness. But I totally want him.

 

[Pakky]

So, whats the dumbest thing that happened when you played a game.
On Minecraft, I got kicked from a server for Wearing a Wario Skin.
What's wrong with that? xD

Bayo didn't react to a combo in my fight with Rodin

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Palette swaps don't need balancing neither extensive testing, but I forgot that Alph had a trophy, you're right.



I don't think you're understanding my point. I never said they can't, I'm saying I'd personally feel like that would not be something I'd care about if they were anything other than an alt, because I feel they're barely unique comparing to Inklings, even less unique than all of the alts and echoes we currently have in the game. But sure, if Sakurai wants they absolutely can be in the game as an Echo, of course. The point I was making is that there's zero things hypocritical about feeling a character is more akin to an alt costume than a full fledged echo fighter, they still have different tiers of relevancy.

They still do as you need to test what happens if Character A uses Move H on Character B while Item 9 is on the screen while B is wearing palette 7 and stuff

 

[osby]

Palette swaps don't need balancing neither extensive testing, but I forgot that Alph had a trophy, you're right.



I don't think you're understanding my point. I never said they can't, I'm saying I'd personally feel like that would not be something I'd care about if they were anything other than an alt, because I feel they're barely unique comparing to Inklings, even less unique than all of the alts and echoes we currently have in the game. But sure, if Sakurai wants they absolutely can be in the game as an Echo, of course. The point I was making is that there's zero things hypocritical about feeling a character is more akin to an alt costume than a full fledged echo fighter, they still have different tiers of relevancy.

They have different personalities.
Some people count it as a bigger difference then say, two versions of Wario or Mario and Dr. Mario.

 

[Mutsukki]

They still do as you need to test what happens if Character A uses Move H on Character B while Item 9 is on the screen while B is wearing palette 7 and stuff

Yeah, but with an Echo that just doubles for both, since Octolings would also have their own palletes and also need to be put and balanced against the other 60+ characters.

 

[osby]

Yeah, but with an Echo that just doubles for both, since Octolings would also have their own palletes and also need to be put and balanced against the other 60+ characters.

You don't need to balance echoes with anyone other than their base fighter.

 

[Mutsukki]

Edit: Double post sorry.

They have different personalities.
Some people count it as a bigger difference then say, two versions of Wario or Mario and Dr. Mario.

They do, but it's very subtle differences. Which is fine for Splatoon, but I don't think I'd feel like that's enough for Smash.

You don't need to balance echoes with anyone other than their base fighter.

That is simply not true. How would that even work? They still exist within the whole game.

 

[Enchess]

They still do as you need to test what happens if Character A uses Move H on Character B while Item 9 is on the screen while B is wearing palette 7 and stuff

With 60+ characters, min 8 alts, 4 basic attacks, 4 specials, 3 smashes, and 5 aerials, that's already millions of tests before even considering grabs and items, which might push that to billions. They are not testing this way.

edit: Just to prevent any arguing here, I've worked on military software and they, despite having a reputation for much stricter testing requirements than pretty much any corporation, would never think to test like this. Assuming each test takes 5 min (seems low if anything), this method would take well over 300,000 man hours (again, not even considering items, stages, grabs) which assuming say 100 full-time testers would take over a year to fully test.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

I come back from my adventure of diving into cringe. I came out with a Co-Owner role on a fnaf Minecraft RP

help me

 

[Cutie Gwen]

With 60+ characters, min 8 alts, 4 basic attacks, 4 specials, 3 smashes, and 5 aerials, that's already millions of tests before even considering grabs and items, which might push that to billions. They are not testing this way.

I remember Sakurai saying that's how play testing went in 4

Yeah, but with an Echo that just doubles for both, since Octolings would also have their own palletes and also need to be put and balanced against the other 60+ characters.

If they have identical movesets and properties then no, they don't. 8 octoling palletes and 8 octoling alt costumes would require the same thing

 

[staindgrey]

So, whats the dumbest thing that happened when you played a game.
On Minecraft, I got kicked from a server for Wearing a Wario Skin.
What's wrong with that? xD

In Mass Effect 3's multiplayer mode, I got kicked from the group after soloing our final wave because I took too long doing it.

Yeah, you all died, I had to fend for myself, and I got us all a huge payday for it. Sorry.

 

[Mutsukki]

I remember Sakurai saying that's how play testing went in 4

If they have identical movesets and properties then no, they don't. 8 octoling palletes and 8 octoling alt costumes would require the same thing

That's not how testing works at all. You can't default Inkling balancing and testing to it's Echo just because "they're the same base". It's more work even if it's very similar. You HAVE to test it, there's no way around it, even more if Octoling have different properties, they gotta decide if these properties are adequate or not. There's way more work than you're thinking.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

In Mass Effect 3's multiplayer mode, I got kicked from the group after soloing our final wave because I took too long doing it.

Yeah, you all died, I had to fend for myself, and I got us all a huge payday for it. Sorry.

Another pretty dumb thing is that i was playing a game, And i gues the map didn't load properly, Because I fell straight into the abyss. Forver. My game bassically soft locked.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Don't know if this has been talked about before, but I've been interested in this myself, so I thought I'd ask. If Simon Belmont did get in Smash, which design do you think we'd see him in? What design would you prefer to see him in?

Top Left: Classic
Top Right: Chronicles
Bottom Left: Judgement
Bottom Right: Lords of Shadow

I think we'd see the Classic design, though I'd prefer his Chronicles design. Lords of Shadow would be alright, but Judgement just looks awful.

My personal pick would be his Chronicles design, but Classic is most likely to happen. If he gets in, though, maybe he could get Chronicles as an alt.

 

[Billybae10K]

You might want to add context to that post. I recall there being a rule on these boards that you can't just post pictures/vids with no context.

Mod edit: Don't respond to obvious spam.

 

[Enchess]

That's not how testing works at all. You can't default Inkling balancing and testing to it's Echo just because "they're the same base". It's more work even if it's very similar. You HAVE to test it, there's no way around it, even more if Octoling have different properties, they gotta decide if these properties are adequate or not. There's way more work than you're thinking.

The assumption that full-testing doesn't need to be done for echoes is valid though. You need to fully test the Octolings functionality, but you don't need to balance it against the entire cast if the tweaks are all minor. You can fairly safely assume that if they are balanced amongst a small subset of the roster they should be fairly balanced amongst the entire roster as long as the character they are based on is.

 

[Blargg888]

That's what she means by glorified. Echoes are hardly different than alternate costumes but are considered as their own characters. Saying they'd fit as an Alternate Costume but not as an Echo is Hypocritical.

The given reason for DP and Lucina being clones like they are was a combination of "Enough differences between alternate characters" and "Spare Dev Time".

It is because they had differences that they became separate characters in the first place.

As of yet, we have no knowledge of whether this logic carries over for Ultimate's Echoes, but if it does, then saying that a character would fit as one but not the other isn't hypocritical at all.

Saying Alph cant be an Echo but can be an Alternate is wrong because if Sakurai wanted to he could make Alph an echo. No big deal.

Thing is, this logic can't apply to at least one of the existing Echoes, that being Dark Pit. Dark Pit was made a clone because he can't use the TST, which means him being an Alt actually was considered to be "wrong".

Lucina's a bit different, but it still makes sense, even in the context of her games of origin themselves.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's not how testing works at all. You can't default Inkling balancing and testing to it's Echo just because "they're the same base". It's more work even if it's very similar. You HAVE to test it, there's no way around it, even more if Octoling have different properties, they gotta decide if these properties are adequate or not. There's way more work than you're thinking.

Tell that to the Sakurai interview, not me

 

[Enchess]

Tell that to the Sakurai interview, not me

You should give the Sakurai interview. Exhaustive testing is pretty much unheard of nowadays and it's literally taught to you in freshman level college computer classes as something you should not do on a project of notable size.

 

[Deleted member]

Octolings, huh....?

I suppose they could be added as easy Echos....I just don't understand why I should think they would be added at this point in time.
Yeah, last minute clone additions after the initial planned roster was complete has happened before, but Octolings are quite the stretch to me for many reasons.

 

[Mutsukki]

The assumption that full-testing doesn't need to be done for echoes is valid though. You need to fully test the Octolings functionality, but you don't need to balance it against the entire cast if the tweaks are all minor. You can fairly safely assume that if they are balanced amongst a small subset of the roster they should be fairly balanced amongst the entire roster as long as the character they are based on is.

I think it's important to think about the process of what gets tweaked or doesn't. I have my doubts that they looked at the Lucina alt and just thought "Hey, Marth without a tipper" without properly testing if it was any good, viable or even fun. Of course it's way easier to balance than non-Echoes, but there's more work involved than just the idea of removing the tipper and it is substantially more work than an alt-costume.

Tell that to the Sakurai interview, not me

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/16/finatesting-vol-459/

Is this it? It doesn't really say anything about what I was talking

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You should give the Sakurai interview. Exhaustive testing is pretty much unheard of nowadays and it's literally taught to you in freshman level college computer classes as something you should not do on a project of notable size.

I'd love to but the Source Gaming website seems to be down on my end, and I'm certain that's where I read it

 

[TMNTSSB4]

What are you talking about? That's how Wario usually looks like

If he was only wearing shirts then you’d be right

 

[Blargg888]

So anyway, what series would you guys like to hear music from next?

I'm personally hoping for a new Pokemon, Xenoblade, or Fire Emblem remix myself.

 

[Staarih]

That's not how testing works at all. You can't default Inkling balancing and testing to it's Echo just because "they're the same base". It's more work even if it's very similar. You HAVE to test it, there's no way around it, even more if Octoling have different properties, they gotta decide if these properties are adequate or not. There's way more work than you're thinking.

When it came to Lucina and Dark Pit, Sakurai only balanced them relative to their clone to make them roughly equal, it appears, not the whole roster if I’m getting this right. Not sure if the same applies to Daisy and the here speculated Octoling, but maybe so. Anyway, testing/balancing an Echo is still little compared to a unique fighter, I presume.

 

[Enchess]

I think it's important to think about the process of what gets tweaked or doesn't. I have my doubts that they looked at the Lucina alt and just thought "Hey, Marth without a tipper" without properly testing if it was any good, viable or even fun. Of course it's way easier to balance than non-Echoes, but there's more work involved than just the idea of removing the tipper and it is substantially more work than an alt-costume.

Yes, but they probably only needed to test out all her moves on a few characters and balance her against 1 or 2. You're right that this is substantially more work than an alt-costume, but it's still not a lot in the grand scheme of things.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/07/16/finatesting-vol-459/

Is this it? It doesn't really say anything about what I was talking

Wow, that says the literal opposite of how it was being presented hahah. He says certain bugs only occur with very specific combinations then immediately points out that testing in that fashion "would be an impossible task that would take mankind tens or even hundreds of years".

 

[Deleted member]

So anyway, what series would you guys like to hear music from next?

I'm personally hoping for a new Pokemon, Xenoblade, or Fire Emblem remix myself.

Pokemon. Xenoblade, or Final Fantasy. FF probably won't happen though.

 

[Mutsukki]

When it came to Lucina and Dark Pit, Sakurai only balanced them relative to their clone to make them roughly equal, it appears, not the whole roster if I’m getting this right. Not sure if the same applies to Daisy and the here speculated Octoling, but maybe so. Anyway, testing/balancing an Echo is still little compared to a unique fighter, I presume.

Huh! Gotta eat crow then, I was completely wrong. Thanks for that! The more I know the less I make a fool out of myself.

 

[SquashiniKun]

So anyway, what series would you guys like to hear music from next?

I'm personally hoping for a new Pokemon, Xenoblade, or Fire Emblem remix myself.

Earthbound & Rhythm Heaven

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes, but they probably only needed to test out all her moves on a few characters and balance her against 1 or 2. You're right that this is substantially more work than an alt-costume, but it's still not a lot in the grand scheme of things.


Wow, that says the literal opposite of how it was being presented hahah. He says certain bugs only occur with very specific combinations then immediately points out that testing in that fashion "would be an impossible task that would take mankind tens or even hundreds of years".

Aaaah, then I misremembered, my bad

 

[RandomAce]

Here’s a thought.

If adding echoes still means that the team will spent a lot of time to balance them, then maybe no.

I mean everyone here says that we most likely will get DLC, but the DLC characters have to be tested against all the other characters, not to mention newcomers. Which is one of the main reasons why there aren’t going to be a lot of newcomers.

So we might not get any due to that workload. Plus it seems Sakurai is fine with the amount of content in the base as is, so I don’t why Sakurai would have to add more paid newcomers down the line on top of an already packed game, with newcomers as well.

 

[osby]

So anyway, what series would you guys like to hear music from next?

I'm personally hoping for a new Pokemon, Xenoblade, or Fire Emblem remix myself.

New Sonic and Bayonetta music and remixes are always welcomed.

 

[Enchess]

So anyway, what series would you guys like to hear music from next?

I'm personally hoping for a new Pokemon, Xenoblade, or Fire Emblem remix myself.

Pushmo. I have no idea what song I'd even want. I just don't want that series to be forgotten.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't believe I forgot about this character. I know that Rex & Pyra were my number one choice for Smash Ultimate, but in terms of "almost unrealistic" expectations that could be above number one, if we could get Travis Touchdown from No More Heroes, that'd be utterly fantastic. We got Bayonetta, let's get our otaku assassin.

And hey, it'll be the one way Hatsune Miku can get in the game. /s

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Got kicked from Team Fortress 2 for trying to play Team Fortress 2.

You tried to push the payload on Hightower didn’t you?


Speaking of unconventional game modes, how about some new modes for smash? Maybe a king of the hill mode, where you get points by staying in the desired locations the longest. Or perhaps a capture the flag mode where the winner is determined by who held a certain item the longest. What game mode ideas would y’all want for smash?