Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Let's say the new Smash comes with the Smash 4 roster plus five new characters.

You work in development and have the option to cut anyone from the Smash 4 roster. If you do, you get to add two new additional characters.

How many do you cut?

I'd cut Doc, Dark Pit and Lucina. No contest there.

Add K.Rool, Inkling, Rayman, Bomberman, Shovel Knight and a standard new Pokemon rep.

___________________

Next round of cuts, another tier if I'm lucky would be Roy, Lucas and Ganondorf.

Would add a reworked Ganondorf (more of a renovation if you will rather than an actual cut) new FE character, Snake, Ice Climbers, an Arms rep and Ridley(if it works!)

Simon Belmont, Xeno rep and Dixie Kong i'd try and fit in next.

 

[Cosmic77]

I did not see this, well I should pay attention more. I do not know who should get cut if I had to cut - that is a good question. Apologies about that post; I just want to say that no character should get cut in the thread.

It's cool. You're not the only one. It seems like lots of people didn't read that post and are wondering why R.O.B. is suddenly a popular character to cut.

The problem with cutting the Pokemon that we currently have on the roster is that all of them besides have remained relevant and are still relevant today (although time will tell how relevant stays) and she has the original 12 status to back her up.

She's also had various relevancy among spin-offs, and just returned in the anime too. Mewtwo and Jigglypuff pretty much had about the same relevancy overall among the various media, which is saying a lot. Greninja probably will stay due to extreme popularity. Mewtwo is the only one other than Jigglypuff that has proven to be lower priority.

did gain a surge in relevancy again around Gen 6 thanks to the Fairy re-typing, even though it didn't come across in gameplay. Losing Jiggs means we also lose the only cutesy feminine Pokemon on the roster. I have a feeling will probably stick around for another game or two before his chances are a bit more questionable, so at this point is once again the next likeliest to be cut unfortunately. Mewtwo just can't catch a break.

I think Mewtwo would've been a higher priority if he were included in Brawl. Sakurai probably bit off more than he could chew with Pokémon Trainer and Lucario. After those two started development, he must have realized that the Pokémon franchise had enough characters as is and could afford losing Mewtwo, who was fairly irrelevant at the time. Now, that's changed a little. Mewtwo has been used more heavily in promotions since then and is making more appearances in spin-offs like Pokken. Jigglypuff did return for the anime, but she hasn't really made regular appearances. At least not yet.

The likeliness of each one returning is debatable, but in terms of relevancy alone...

>>>>>

I have a challenge, what character would you want buffed and nerfed the most? You do not have to give an explanation, but it would be pretty nice.

I almost chose , but I have to go with . Zelda has been low / bottom tier in every game she has ever been in. Zelda is also too slow, so her moves should have less lag. Zelda should be a mid tier at least if she gets those buffs. The problem is nobody wants to player her even if she got those buffs because "there are much better characters around", but I hope others give Zelda a try.

The nerfing choice was hard. Maybe or, I do not know. It is just because those two have tools like Bayo's zero to death that seems hard but you can just SDI. Maybe nerf Rosalina's Luma a bit? I do not know.

Hit with the nerf hammer multiple times until he has a weakness that compensates for his Limit shtick. Seriously, why play when you can choose a character that's just as powerful, does better in the air, and has a better recovery?

Poor needs something good. Her new special didn't do her squat.

 

[Diddy Kong]

5 cuts?

Cloud, PacMan, Dr.Mario, Sheik, and most of all: MII! That alone should cut 3 characters in one.

If I'd had to cut more?

Jigglypuff, Corrin, Ganondorf, Dark Pit and Shulk. I would REALLY want to add Sonic here as well- but that's impossible and it would be somewhat embarrassing cause he's about the most requested character for Smash in its history

Jigglypuff and Ganondorf due to no lasting valluenof having them. Jigglypuff is extremely easy to create tho. So she's not too much of a bother. Same with Dark Pit actually.

Ganondorf is a awesome character in concept. Just the current version of him is bothersome and he's not all actually too relevant any more. His massive popularity in Zelda didn't gave him more staying power, he was shoehorned in Twilight Princess and it's his last appearance since ever. His Smash 4 and Brawl moveset are loosely based on this fight. I just rather cut him and make way for newer Zelda characters. Impa and a Champion like Daruk would be my choice. Midna and Wolf Link even would be better than current Ganondorf.

Shulk can make way for a new Xenoblade character. But he could also stay. Don't bother much with him, just don't think he's standing out much in the roster and his abilities could've been represented better.

Corrin was shoehorned as DLC. Doubt the character would've been considered at all.if not for the exact timing of Fates' release. Replace with whomever.

Also Smash should add in more 'temporary characters'. Characters not exactly meant to reapper in the next Smash. Makes all the rosters of new Smash games more exclusive. Also offers a ton of DLC options to further games.

This way, many of Pokemon's new starters, Fire Emblem one-offs, a Champion from BOTW, and other one hit wonders could make the roster without having pressure of them needing to stay relevant. Makes each Smash also far more of a generational thing.

Pichu is a good example of this. Pichu was there cause Pokemon Gold.and Silver was the last next hyped up thing. So was Ocarina of Time. So Young Link is also a good example in a way. But why stop there?

Edit: So the cuts cannot be Smash 4 newcomers?

Okay:

Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Sheik, Dr.Mario and *sigh* Roy.

Ganondorf and Sheik could stay if Hyrule Warriors gets looked at for inspiration. But I doubt it. They overwelcomed their stay honestly. Especially with such poor represention. Their popularity couldn't save their roles in Zelda, why in Smash? Their exclusion forces a newcomer or two in the Zelda cast.

Jigglypuff is just there... Doesn't really seem necessary anymore. Her popularity also waned.

Dr.Mario doesn't bring much new. Not as popular anympre cause he's not just Mario.with a better projectile. Predicted this from the start.

Roy I had the most problems with cause his Smash 4 moveset is well fitting. But he's still not relevant unfortunately and should be on the base roster once Fire Emblem Sealed Sword Echoes gets made.

5 Smash 4 newcomer cuts are much easier tho: Cloud, PacMan, Mii Fighters, even Wii Fit Trainer can leave the building.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Mewtwo would've been a higher priority if he were included in Brawl. Sakurai probably bit off more than he could chew with Pokémon Trainer and Lucario. After those two started development, he must have realized that the Pokémon franchise had enough characters as is and could afford losing Mewtwo, who was fairly irrelevant at the time. Now, that's changed a little. Mewtwo has been used more heavily in promotions since then and is making more appearances in spin-offs like Pokken. Jigglypuff did return for the anime, but she hasn't really made regular appearances. At least not yet.

Nope. Mewtwo would've still been lower priority than Jigglypuff overall. Being in Brawl wouldn't have changed a thing. Mewtwo was planned for Smash 64 and got beat out by Jigglypuff due to ease of creation. Brawl more or less proved this to be the same factor. And 4. The Balloon Pokemon overall is considered higher priority in Smash before Mewtwo. The only way that'll change if Gamefreak says so. But they blatantly have not.

The likeliness of each one returning is debatable, but in terms of relevancy alone...

>>>>>

Relevancy alone won't really apply to the Pokemon options alone. There's more to it than that. It's mostly for newcomers, not for veterans. It's going to easily be Pikachu > Charizard/Lucario > Greninja/Jigglypuff > Mewtwo. The thing is, we don't know if Greninja will be considered a blatant return. That puts it in the same area as Jigglypuff, who barely makes it each time(besides 64) in general, always being near last in the data, which is what that conclusion is come to. Mewtwo was never considered high priority, but when it comes to DLC, it's clear it is. But for main game, not even close.

This could change, but that's the most realistic likeliness at the moment.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Jigglypuff just gets added each time cause she's ridiculously easy to include. She's in many ways much like a semi-clone addition, just slightly more unique.

Mewtwo was probably unlucky with Brawl cause of his floating mechanic. And a disfunctional moveset in Melee, which was translated to his debut in Smash 4. He was terrible. But now, he's Top Tier. DLC gave them options to rework the character from non functional to highly effective.

Just by sheer popularity, Mewtwo would probably enjoy inclusion over even the likes of Charizard and Lucario. I said in my last post that Sonic was number one requested character. Secondly, it would definitely be Mewtwo. Especially around Smash 4. He was more requested than Mega Man, Ridley and K.Rool. Should say something. Just look at how much attention he's gotten from the patches.

Mewtwo is staying. Without Jigglypuff, basically every important, well known and insanely popular Pokemon is on the roster. Can't see them change much of it, only add to it.

 

[RandomAce]

The only character that bugs me the most is Jigglypuff. She's only added because she is part of the original 12, and it shows. She doesn't feel like she belongs in the Smash 4 roster anymore, not to mention that she is by far considered the worst character in the game and clearly isn't cared by the developers anymore due to the lack of patches even made for her. Her moves are also very lazy and is mostly composed of a of slaps not to mention that she was only added in the first place because she reuses most of Kirby's assets. I'd cut her out in an instant.

 

[NintenRob]

I feel people don't give Jigglypuff enough credit.

Yeah she barely made it in Brawl, Smash Wii U she received a more expressive design and more accurate to her source material. She may not received much moveset attention but she got plenty of love in the other part.

Also original 12

 

[RandomAce]

I feel people don't give Jigglypuff enough credit.

Also original 12

That is my point. She is added just because she is a part of the original 12. Not to mention that was only added in smash 64 just because she was similar to kirby.

 

[Deleted member]

and more accurate to her source material.

So accurate that it's literally just a port of the X/Y model with some graphical tweaks.

 

[Deleted member]

So accurate that it's literally just a port of the X/Y model with some graphical tweaks.

Pretty much. I think it is going to stay almost exactly the same as Gen 7 has the same sprite style as Gen 6. I doubt Puff will change unless a new Pokemon game comes out before Smash for Switch.

 

[Luminario]

Y'all better leave my girl Jiggs alone. When will any of your faves have a move as iconic and out of touch with canon as Rest? She's a beloved character and pretty unique too.

Jigglypuff just gets added each time cause she's ridiculously easy to include. She's in many ways much like a semi-clone addition, just slightly more unique.

Mewtwo was probably unlucky with Brawl cause of his floating mechanic. And a disfunctional moveset in Melee, which was translated to his debut in Smash 4. He was terrible. But now, he's Top Tier. DLC gave them options to rework the character from non functional to highly effective.

Just by sheer popularity, Mewtwo would probably enjoy inclusion over even the likes of Charizard and Lucario. I said in my last post that Sonic was number one requested character. Secondly, it would definitely be Mewtwo. Especially around Smash 4. He was more requested than Mega Man, Ridley and K.Rool. Should say something. Just look at how much attention he's gotten from the patches.

Mewtwo is staying. Without Jigglypuff, basically every important, well known and insanely popular Pokemon is on the roster. Can't see them change much of it, only add to it.

You give Mewtwo too much credit. He missed 2 base rosters, he's pretty low priority here.

Anyway, I'm somewhat hopeful that next time they actually give Jiggs a Fairy move. It's understandable that they didn't add in Disarming Voice or Dazzling Gleam in Smash 4, but now those moves have been around for quite some time and shown in various situations in games and in the anime, so the next person adding Jiggs into the game must have some idea of how to implement the attacks.

 

[NintenRob]

Still, people say she was late development in Smash Wii U but I see no proof of this.

And being an easy to make unique character is a reason to stay.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I don't even like Jigglypuff that much, but some of you are so blinded by your hate for her that you ignore any kind of logic when it comes to her returning, and the roster. The salt is strong in some of you.

Jigglypuff is unique.

Jigglypuff is easy to implement.

Jigglypuff is one of the "Original 12".

The only people who don't want Jigglypuff to return in Smash are people who still believe the misconception that with her removal a roster slot will open up the chance for another challenger to enter the fray. People who do not know how to play as her. Lastly, we have those salty individuals who can't beat a skilled Jigglypuff player. The audacity that a cute, pink, girly, fairy Pokémon can defeat Ganondorf, Meta Knight, or some other edgy/ "top tier" challenger eats some of you alive.

Her 15 minutes of fame in the Pokémon series is up. There is no denying that.

However, she was once very important, and very popular. Especially, around the time of her inclusion.

What is Smash, but a game that is to make us Nintendo fans feel nostalgia.

If Jigglypuff is ever removed, I will be speechless. What will leave me even more speechless, is when she appears as DLC, and those of you who detest the meer reading of her name, will rage.

Beacuse the only reason Jigglypuff will ever be removed is due to time constraints, and that's because she is so easy to implement, that the development team waits to start developing her, becasue it would take little to no effort.

A semi-clone that is the farthest thing from a semi-clone we have.

Jigglypuff deserves her spot. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere. You're all just a bunch of crybabies.

God, I would love if she returns, and gets slighty reworked to have some Fairy Type moves, because that would just make her more unique, and you'd all RAGEEEE.

 

[RandomAce]

That is just my opinion. I don't think that removing her would open up another slot, I just think that at this point she kind of muddy ups the roster since her fame is long gone now. The fact that she was part of the original 12 to begin with is just an excuse the team uses to why she is in in the first place, and the team doesn't seem to care due to the lack of changes she gets.

Personally, I don't like her and the development team doesn't seem to show much intrest in her either.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I don't even like Jigglypuff that much, but some of you are so blinded by your hate for her that you ignore any kind of logic when it comes to her returning, and the roster. The salt is strong in some of you.

Jigglypuff is unique.

Jigglypuff is easy to implement.

Jigglypuff is one of the "Original 12".

The only people who don't want Jigglypuff to return in Smash are people who still believe the misconception that with her removal a roster slot will open up the chance for another challenger to enter the fray. People who do not know how to play as her. Lastly, we have those salty individuals who can't beat a skilled Jigglypuff player. The audacity that a cute, pink, girly, fairy Pokémon can defeat Ganondorf, Meta Knight, or some other edgy/ "top tier" challenger eats some of you alive.

Her 15 minutes of fame in the Pokémon series is up. There is no denying that.

However, she was once very important, and very popular. Especially, around the time of her inclusion.

What is Smash, but a game that is to make us Nintendo fans feel nostalgia.

If Jigglypuff is ever removed, I will be speechless. What will leave me even more speechless, is when she appears as DLC, and those of you who detest the meer reading of her name, will rage.

Beacuse the only reason Jigglypuff will ever be removed is due to time constraints, and that's because she is so easy to implement, that the development team waits to start developing her, becasue it would take little to no effort.

A semi-clone that is the farthest thing from a semi-clone we have.

Jigglypuff deserves her spot. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere. You're all just a bunch of crybabies.

God, I would love if she returns, and gets slighty reworked to have some Fairy Type moves, because that would just make her more unique, and you'd all RAGEEEE.

Y'know I don't really care about Jigglypuff one way or the other but man, I love this post.

 

[Opossum]

That is just my opinion. I don't think that removing her would open up another slot, I just think that at this point she kind of muddy ups the roster since her fame is long gone now. The fact that she was part of the original 12 to begin with is just an excuse the team uses to why she is in in the first place, and the team doesn't seem to care due to the lack of changes she gets.

Personally, I don't like her and the development team doesn't seem to show much intrest in her either.

I mean, I like Jigglypuff, but man, some people can't handle other people's opinions. Sorry some folks are being so harsh. :/

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

That is just my opinion. I don't think that removing her would open up another slot, I just think that at this point she kind of muddy ups the roster since her fame is long gone now. The fact that she was part of the original 12 to begin with is just an excuse the team uses to why she is in in the first place, and the team doesn't seem to care due to the lack of changes she gets.

Personally, I don't like her and the development team doesn't seem to show much intrest in her either.

How does she muddy up the roster? The most unique "semi-clone" we have, and her fame being dead has no merit. On the accusation we should also remove Mr. Game & Watch, Ness, Lucas, Captain Falcon, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Rosalina & Luma, and Wii Fit Trainer. Basically anyone whose "15 minutes" is up. It's illogical, and her removal is based in nothing but personal bias. She represents the time when Pokémon was blossoming into the powerhouse franchise it is today.

Y'know I don't really care about Jigglypuff one way or the other but man, I love this post.

The "Saltside" of the Smash Community is just so full of anger. Anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the Saltside.

 

[N3ON]

I don't even like Jigglypuff that much, but some of you are so blinded by your hate for her that you ignore any kind of logic when it comes to her returning, and the roster. The salt is strong in some of you.

Jigglypuff is unique.

Jigglypuff is easy to implement.

Jigglypuff is one of the "Original 12".

I don't deny any of this, it's all true. And I don't not want her to return... I certainly don't hate the character, but I'm truly apathetic. And I think many are. They recognize her posterity in the series and expect she'll appear in future iterations.

But the points you listed exemplify why many people are if not ambivalent, indifferent. They points might be all true, but none actually speak to the character. You can't say she's particularly popular in the series of origin. You can't say she's important. You can't say she was overly demanded for Smash at any given point. I'd argue her moveset doesn't really endear her to many players, but that is a matter of contention. The point is, there are merits as to why she'll return, which she will... but they mostly revolve around feasibility and legacy... not the actual character. Which is why people don't really care.

The only people who don't want Jigglypuff to return in Smash are people who still believe the misconception that with her removal a roster slot will open up the chance for another challenger to enter the fray.

Depends how Sakurai spends the time and resources gained from her removal, frankly. She's not a clone.

People who do not know how to play as her. Lastly, we have those salty individuals who can't beat a skilled Jigglypuff player. The audacity that a cute, pink, girly, fairy Pokémon can defeat Ganondorf, Meta Knight, or some other edgy/ "top tier" challenger eats some of you alive.

I feel competitive viability is lower on the list of reasons the populace at large cares about a character, considering the vast majority don't play at that level. I know people who use Jigglypuff in my Smash circles.

 

[A Distant Demon]

The salt is strong in some of you.

Lastly, we have those salty individuals who can't beat a skilled Jigglypuff player.

I don and those of you who detest the meer reading of her name, will rage.

You're all just a bunch of crybabies.

because that would just make her more unique, and you'd all RAGEEEE.

The "Saltside" of the Smash Community is just so full of anger. Anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the Saltside.

Y'know, when someone talks about everyone else having a different opinion means that they are just salty, raging crybabies (love the 1st grade ayground insults)it becomes reallllly hard to believe you are arguing in good faith.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I mean, I like Jigglypuff, but man, some people can't handle other people's opinions. Sorry some folks are being so harsh. :/

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I just don't see the point in removing a unique character simply because she isn't a well liked as others. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, but I am a Smash Purist, and I will always have issue with unwarranted hatred of an existing character. Especially, if said character is unique, and one of the Original 12.

I'm sorry if you feel offended.

I don't deny any of this, it's all true. And I don't not want her to return... I certainly don't hate the character, but I'm truly apathetic. And I think many are. They recognize her posterity in the series and expect she'll appear in future iterations.

But the points you listed exemplify why many people are if not ambivalent, indifferent. They points might be all true, but none actually speak to the character. You can't say she's particularly popular in the series of origin. You can't say she's important. You can't say she was overly demanded for Smash at any given point. I'd argue her moveset doesn't really endear her to many players, but that is a matter of contention. The point is, there are merits as to why she'll return, which she will... but they mostly revolve around feasibility and legacy... not the actual character. Which is why people don't really care.


Depends how Sakurai spends the time and resources gained from her removal, frankly. She's not a clone.


I feel competitive viability is lower on the list of reasons the populace at large cares about a character, considering the vast majority don't play at that level. I know people who use Jigglypuff in my Smash circles.

She's isn't popular anymore. She had her time in the spotlight when the series was beginning, and to say the representatives for the Pokémon series aren't somewhat based around their presence in the anime and movie are harebrained. Mewtwo and Lucario talk for God's sake. Charizard's attitude can be attributed to the Charizard that Ash had. The anime and movies may not have a major role to play in inclusion, but it place a part to some extent.

Jigglypuff was added to Smash back in 1999. The Pokémon series was at a peak. Both the games and anime. Her inclusion was justified, and easy to do. Jigglypuff is there for the one's of us who grew up during Pokémon's rise. She is demanded by those of us who main her. Those of us who grew up watching Pokémon, and understanding why she is there, and those of us who never want to see any of the Original 12 be cut because we also grew up playing this game that has become a powerhouse franchise for Nintendo in it's own right.

She isn't popular anymore in her origin franchise.. At this point she is basically a retro rep for Pokémon. I am well aware of that.

I don't particular care for her, but her inclusion is justified. The reasons you've listed above could be applied to many characters on the roster now, as well as one's that get demanded by the masses.

Hatred for her just seems unjust in my eyes.

 

[Zerp]

Anybody know if there's an way to pull up merchandise sales per individual pokemon? That would be a nice way to get hard data on Jigglypuff's popularity in comparison to other Pokemon and may shed some additional light on why she's in Smash Bros. in the first place.

I have a challenge, what character would you want buffed and nerfed the most? You do not have to give an explanation, but it would be pretty nice.

I almost chose , but I have to go with . Zelda has been low / bottom tier in every game she has ever been in. Zelda is also too slow, so her moves should have less lag. Zelda should be a mid tier at least if she gets those buffs. The problem is nobody wants to player her even if she got those buffs because "there are much better characters around", but I hope others give Zelda a try.

The nerfing choice was hard. Maybe or, I do not know. It is just because those two have tools like Bayo's zero to death that seems hard but you can just SDI. Maybe nerf Rosalina's Luma a bit? I do not know.

That's a pretty difficult question since there's a lot I'd like to change with Smash 4's balance, but I'm going to have to go with for buffs and for nerfs. I don't think Cloud's the strongest character in Smash 4 but I do think he invalidates the most characters and his impact upon the doubles meta really cannot be understated, he's the one who I feel deserves the nerf hammer the most. Likewise, Jigglypuff's not who I think is the absolute weakest character in Smash 4, but she got zero buffs throughout this game's patches unlike Ganon's and Zelda's several and unlike Dedede she was bottom tier in Brawl so I'm going with her since she got the absolute worst treatment overall imo.

Jigglypuff just gets added each time cause she's ridiculously easy to include. She's in many ways much like a semi-clone addition, just slightly more unique.

May I ask what makes Jigglypuff so easy to implement? It's true that some of her moves were taken from Kirby in 64, however, at this point in time there's next to no similarities what so ever between the two characters, they were already some of the least similar semi-clones in Smash's history during 64 but even by the time of Melee they've pretty much become completely separate, I don't see what makes her any easier to add back than the other veterans.

Anyway, since we're all talking about Jigglypuff, I think the main reasons she's still in are because of the veterancy status that everyone's always championing, but also because the character's a lot more iconic than people give her credit for being, it's true she isn't as important as the other Smash-mon and while I don't have any hard data that'd allow me to prove this, I have an aching suspicion she's a lot more well-known among the non-gamer crowd than most people would think simply because Gen 1 era Pokemon had an absurd level of popularity surrounding it and her presence in the anime probably made her a lot more iconic than what'd you assume of most non-legendary, non-starter pokemon. Also, this isn't directly related to how iconic she is, but I'd like to point out that she's catchable in more mainline Pokemon games than Pikachu is, PIKACHU! That probably counts for something.

Also,

I don't even like Jigglypuff that much, but some of you are so blinded by your hate for her that you ignore any kind of logic when it comes to her returning, and the roster. The salt is strong in some of you.

Jigglypuff is unique.

Jigglypuff is easy to implement.

Jigglypuff is one of the "Original 12".

The only people who don't want Jigglypuff to return in Smash are people who still believe the misconception that with her removal a roster slot will open up the chance for another challenger to enter the fray. People who do not know how to play as her. Lastly, we have those salty individuals who can't beat a skilled Jigglypuff player. The audacity that a cute, pink, girly, fairy Pokémon can defeat Ganondorf, Meta Knight, or some other edgy/ "top tier" challenger eats some of you alive.

Her 15 minutes of fame in the Pokémon series is up. There is no denying that.

However, she was once very important, and very popular. Especially, around the time of her inclusion.

What is Smash, but a game that is to make us Nintendo fans feel nostalgia.

If Jigglypuff is ever removed, I will be speechless. What will leave me even more speechless, is when she appears as DLC, and those of you who detest the meer reading of her name, will rage.

Beacuse the only reason Jigglypuff will ever be removed is due to time constraints, and that's because she is so easy to implement, that the development team waits to start developing her, becasue it would take little to no effort.

A semi-clone that is the farthest thing from a semi-clone we have.

Jigglypuff deserves her spot. Jigglypuff isn't going anywhere. You're all just a bunch of crybabies.

God, I would love if she returns, and gets slighty reworked to have some Fairy Type moves, because that would just make her more unique, and you'd all RAGEEEE.

I appreciate that you're arguing in favor of Jigglypuff and I agree with several of our points, but could you please refrain from insulting everybody who doesn't see eye-to-eye by calling them cry-babies and the like? It's rude and it only makes our side look worse.

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

I don't even like Jigglypuff that much, but some of you are so blinded by your hate for her that you ignore any kind of logic when it comes to her returning, and the roster. The salt is strong in some of you.

You're all just a bunch of crybabies.

God, I would love if she returns, and gets slighty reworked to have some Fairy Type moves, because that would just make her more unique, and you'd all RAGEEEE.

Relax, it was a hypothetical scenario put to people by a poster. She was just in peoples lists, with a couple of other characters. I do agree she does have more going for her compared to others. There are at least 4 other characters who I'd rather see cut then Jiggs.

Also, salt/salty is such a piss weak term to use. It's such a cop out when said in most instances when people put forward valid criticisms only to get the "ya salty m8" line. You can say something negative without being *shudders* salty.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Y'know, when someone talks about everyone else having a different opinion means that they are just salty, raging crybabies (love the 1st grade ayground insults)it becomes reallllly hard to believe you are arguing in good faith.

I apologize. Honestly, I do. You're right. I could have handled a lot better. Forgive me. I am just passionate about keeping unique characters on the roster, and especially those of the Original 12. It just wouldn't feel like Smash without her.

Anybody know if there's an way to pull up merchandise sales per individual pokemon? That would be a nice way to get hard data on Jigglypuff's popularity in comparison to other Pokemon and may shed some additional light on why she's in Smash Bros. in the first place.
That's a pretty difficult question since there's a lot I'd like to change with Smash 4's balance, but I'm going to have to go with for buffs and for nerfs. I don't think Cloud's the strongest character in Smash 4 but I do think he invalidates the most characters and his impact upon the doubles meta really cannot be understated, he's the one who I feel deserves the nerf hammer the most. Likewise, Jigglypuff's not who I think is the absolute weakest character in Smash 4, but she got zero buffs throughout this game's patches unlike Ganon's and Zelda's several and unlike Dedede she was bottom tier in Brawl so I'm going with her since she got the absolute worst treatment overall imo.

May I ask what makes Jigglypuff so easy to implement? It's true that some of her moves were taken from Kirby in 64, however, at this point in time there's next to no similarities what so ever between the two characters, they were already some of the least similar semi-clones in Smash's history during 64 but even by the time of Melee they've pretty much become completely separate, I don't see what makes her any easier to add back than the other veterans.

Anyway, since we're all talking about Jigglypuff, I think the main reasons she's still in are because of the veterancy status that everyone's always championing, but also because the character's a lot more iconic than people give her credit for being, it's true she isn't as important as the other Smash-mon and while I don't have any hard data that'd allow me to prove this, I have an aching suspicion she's a lot more well-known among the non-gamer crowd than most people would think simply because Gen 1 era Pokemon had an absurd level of popularity surrounding it and her presence in the anime probably made her a lot more iconic than what'd you assume of most non-legendary, non-starter pokemon. Also, this isn't directly related to how iconic she is, but I'd like to point out that she's catchable in more mainline Pokemon games than Pikachu is, PIKACHU! That probably counts for something.

Also,

I appreciate that you're arguing in favor of Jigglypuff and I agree with several of our points, but could you please refrain from insulting everybody who doesn't see eye-to-eye by calling them cry-babies and the like? It's rude and it only makes our side look worse.

I apologize to anyone I may have offended within my defense of Jigglypuff. It was very rude, and could have been handled a lot better.

 

[Opossum]

Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I just don't see the point in removing a unique character simply because she isn't a well liked as others. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, but I am a Smash Purist, and I will always have issue with unwarranted hatred of an existing character. Especially, if said character is unique, and one of the Original 12.

I'm sorry if you feel offended.



She's isn't popular anymore. She had her time in the spotlight when the series was beginning, and to say the representatives for the Pokémon series aren't somewhat based around their presence in the anime and movie are harebrained. Mewtwo and Lucario talk for God's sake. Charizard's attitude can be attributed to the Charizard that Ash had. The anime and movies may not have a major role to play in inclusion, but it place a part to some extent.

Jigglypuff was added to Smash back in 1999. The Pokémon series was at a peak. Both the games and anime. Her inclusion was justified, and easy to do. Jigglypuff is there for the one's of us who grew up during Pokémon's rise. She is demanded by those of us who main her. Those of us who grew up watching Pokémon, and understanding why she is there, and those of us who never want to see any of the Original 12 be cut because we also grew up playing this game that has become a powerhouse franchise for Nintendo in it's own right.

She isn't popular anymore in her origin franchise.. At this point she is basically a retro rep for Pokémon. I am well aware of that.

I don't particular care for her, but her inclusion is justified. The reasons you've listed above could be applied to many characters on the roster now, as well as one's that get demanded by the masses.

Hatred for her just seems unjust in my eyes.

The issue is that you're equating indifference with hatred. Things aren't always black and white. You can't only love or hate something; there's a middle ground.

The thing is, you're giving reasons why Jigglypuff is likely to stay. Likelihood doesn't impact people's opinions on the character itself. I don't think Jigglypuff would ever be cut (barring a full on reboot) but if she was? I wouldn't lose any sleep. I don't enjoy playing her current iteration and she was never among my favorite Pokémon to begin with. But I don't hate her.

People were saying who they'd cut if given the reigns. It's only natural to expect that characters they feel indifferent toward wouldn't be a high priority to keep, especially over those they actually do like. If given the reigns and I had to make cuts, I'd cut Sheik, Doctor Mario, and Zero Suit Samus, no questions asked. I don't hate them, but personally I don't enjoy having characters take up two spaces on the roster at once. And yet I'd keep Toon Link, since he's enough of his own individual to warrant it. Hypocritical? Yeah, from a certain viewpoint. Does it matter? Not at all, because it's a hypothetical that'd realistically never happen. Different people just want to see different things in Smash.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash for Switch needs a mode where you can make custom characters with different character moves ( Like a custom character with Captain Falcon's Neutral B and Pac - Man's Down B or anything else ). That would actually be fun to make, but it should never be in For Glory and not taken seriously. It should be in Special Smash or something.

I apologize. Honestly, I do. You're right. I could have handled a lot better. Forgive me. I am just passionate about keeping unique characters on the roster, and especially those of the Original 12. It just wouldn't feel like Smash without her.



I apologize to anyone I may have offended within my defense of Jigglypuff. It was very rude, and could have been handled a lot better.

It is all right. Think before you post, a message that everyone needs to get .

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

The issue is that you're equating indifference to hatred. Things aren't always black and white. You can't only love or hate something; there's a middle ground.

The thing is, you're giving reasons why Jigglypuff is likely to stay. Likelihood doesn't impact people's opinions on the character itself. I don't think Jigglypuff would ever be cut (barring a full on reboot) but if she did? I wouldn't lose any sleep. I don't enjoy playing her current iteration and she was never among my favorite Pokémon to begin with. But I don't hate her.

People were saying who they'd cut if given the reigns. It's only natural to expect that characters they feel indifferent toward wouldn't be high priority to keep, especially over those they actually do like. If given the reigns and had to make cuts I'd cut Sheik, Doctor Mario, and Zero Suit Samus, no questions asked. I don't hate them, but personally I don't enjoy having characters take up two spaces on the roster at once. And yet I'd keep Toon Link, since he's enough of his own individual to warrant it. Hypocritical? Yeah, from a certain viewpoint. Does it matter? Not at all, because it's a hypothetical that'd realistically never happen. Different people just want to see different things in Smash.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

You're absolutely right. I've apologized. I let my passion get the better of me. That being said, yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I meerly meant to voice my opinion on the matter, but did it harshly.

 

[N3ON]

She's isn't popular anymore. She had her time in the spotlight when the series was beginning, and to say the representatives for the Pokémon series aren't somewhat based around their presence in the anime and movie are harebrained. Mewtwo and Lucario talk for God's sake. Charizard's attitude can be attributed to the Charizard that Ash had. The anime and movies may not have a major role to play in inclusion, but it place a part to some extent.

Jigglypuff was added to Smash back in 1999. The Pokémon series was at a peak. Both the games and anime. Her inclusion was justified, and easy to do. Jigglypuff is there for the one's of us who grew up during Pokémon's rise. She is demanded by those of us who main her. Those of us who grew up watching Pokémon, and understanding why she is there, and those of us who never want to see any of the Original 12 be cut because we also grew up playing this game that has become a powerhouse franchise for Nintendo in it's own right.

She isn't popular anymore in her origin franchise.. At this point she is basically a retro rep for Pokémon. I am well aware of that.

I don't particular care for her, but her inclusion is justified. The reasons you've listed above could be applied to many characters on the roster now, as well as one's that get demanded by the masses.

Hatred for her just seems unjust in my eyes.

And why should maybe top 10 popularity in one region twenty years ago be revered now? I understand why she was included, it was due to her prevalence and ease of inclusion, and I've never argued she should be removed, but indifference towards the fate of a character whose personal merit and popularity evaporated decades ago neither shocks nor perturbs me.

Though really, hatred for her is quite uncommon. I don't hate her. I simply don't care. You're just conflating any sort of dissenting opinion with outright hatred for some reason.

The reasons you've listed above could be applied to many characters on the roster now, as well as one's that get demanded by the masses.

Not any that don't face a similar contingent of apathy regarding their removal.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

And why should maybe top 10 popularity in one region twenty years ago be revered now? I understand why she was included, it was due to her prevalence and ease of inclusion, and I've never argued she should be removed, but indifference towards the fate of a character whose personal merit and popularity evaporated decades ago neither shocks nor perturbs me.

Though really, hatred for her is quite uncommon. I don't hate her. I simply don't care. You're just conflating any sort of dissenting opinion with outright hatred for some reason.


Not any that don't face a similar contingent of apathy regarding their removal.

I lashed out, and read into the opposing comments too far. Again, I am sorry.

My words were poorly chosen, and unnecessarily sharp.

It was the voicing of an opposing opinion that was rashly stated.

I stand for Jigglypuff's inclusion, and for those of you that don't, your opinions are valid. I just don't agree.

 

[PsychoJosh]

What if in the next Smash game, characters had certain favorite foods and eating them gave them some extra benefit, like speeding them up or giving them extra strength in addition to healing them more?

They could have story reasons for liking their favorite food too.

Samus/ZSS: Fruit - Speed Up Fruit is her favorite food, because it tastes delicious and she can't eat it out in space. It spoils during her long travels and she can only eat non-perishables in her ship.

Wario: Garlic - Strength Up Wario eats plenty of garlic to stay strong, and it's a known favorite food of his in the games.

Dedede/Kirby: Sweets - Hit Resistance Up You know they love to munch on cake and candy.

Earthworm Jim: Chip Butty - +100% armor Adds a "stamina buffer" that slowly drains to 0, which protects him from deadly blows for a period until the armor runs out. I know Jim's not in the game but I added him here anyways because the Chip Butty powerup in EWJ2 made me think of this idea.

 

[N3ON]

I lashed out, and read into the opposing comments too far. Again, I am sorry.

My words were poorly chosen, and unnecessarily sharp.

It was the voicing of an opposing opinion that was rashly stated.

I stand for Jigglypuff's inclusion, and for those of you that don't, your opinions are valid. I just don't agree.

No worries, I hadn’t refreshed for a while when I posted so I missed your response.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

No worries, I hadn’t refreshed for a while when I posted so I missed your response.

No problem. Truce?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What if in the next Smash game, characters had certain favorite foods and eating them gave them some extra benefit, like speeding them up or giving them extra strength in addition to healing them more?

They could have story reasons for liking their favorite food too.

Samus/ZSS: Fruit - Speed Up Fruit is her favorite food, because it tastes delicious and she can't eat it out in space. It spoils during her long travels and she can only eat non-perishables in her ship.

Wario: Garlic - Strength Up Wario eats plenty of garlic to stay strong, and it's a known favorite food of his in the games.

Dedede/Kirby: Sweets - Hit Resistance Up You know they love to munch on cake and candy.

Earthworm Jim: Chip Butty - +100% armor Adds a "stamina buffer" that slowly drains to 0, which protects him from deadly blows for a period until the armor runs out. I know Jim's not in the game but I added him here anyways because the Chip Butty powerup in EWJ2 made me think of this idea.

That feels needlessly complicated, especially as Kirby and Dedede are gluttons who'd eat about anything and Kirby's canonical favourite foods are Maxim Tomatoes or watermelons, depending on if you count the anime

 

[PsychoJosh]

That feels needlessly complicated, especially as Kirby and Dedede are gluttons who'd eat about anything and Kirby's canonical favourite foods are Maxim Tomatoes or watermelons, depending on if you count the anime

It's not complicated at all. The idea was also in Rampage World Tour which was as simple a game as they come.

 

[Krysco]

The post that got the discussion on cutting started specifically did a blanket protection where the newcomers for Sm4sh were off limits. No such treatment was given for the original 12 or Melee or Brawl newcomers. With the rules provided by the poster, someone could've chosen to cut Mario, Luigi, Link, Pikachu and Kirby. There was also the more recent post where you cut one character and add 2 more and I only skimmed that one since the only character I want back is Wolf. Don't really have strong feelings for any potential newcomer.

Do I think Puff will get cut? Probably not. Even if she does, I can see her being free DLC like with what happened with Splatoon. Do I think if Puff got cut that we'd get a new, original character? Not really. It's possible but in my post about the 5 I'd cut, I only said they could put that time elsewhere. Maybe do more bug testing or play more matches with the cast they have at any given time to do more balancing or even just graphical touch ups on the characters or stages. Do I hate Puff? No. Kinda hard to hate a character that's so bad. I guess I could start to if I started playing some in Melee but it's rare to find a Melee Puff player plus I'm a scrub at that game anyways so I'd likely chalk it up to my own inexperience, plus she's not Bayo or Cloud~ As I said before, I don't care at all for her being a part of the original 12. Heck, Ness is too and apparently the dev team for Melee had plans to replace him with Lucas. I recall reading that somewhere. I would have no problem with Puff coming back if the dev team actually showed any sign of caring about her aside from graphical touch ups. Buff the Puff, give her more iconic moves, record new sound clips for her, do something that shows they're not just adding her to the game out of 'muh eriginal twehlve' obligation. I don't even care about her popularity. This is the same series where Japanese exclusive Marth, Corrin (for a time), Roy and Lucas get to come in. The same series where we get an NES peripheral as a character and the likes of and .

As for the 'favourite food' thing, I feel like if equipment comes back, they'd just apply it to that. I wanna say they already did that actually.

 

[Deleted member]

Ohayō gozaimasu. It's your girl Grandma Shizuka, back with an over-the-top idea. This will probably be my last post here since I've already given input on character cuts/additions, new modes, stages, and what have you.

There should be a duel mode. I've been playing Mario Party 3 a lot this month which gave me the idea. This mode is for the casual players so competitively-minded players need not bother with this mode.

Here are the rules: Defeat your opponent with the help of your Assist Trophies. Unlike Smash Tour, you can choose your own character instead of a Mii walking around collecting characters that you may not do so good with. By the way, your chosen character is in their trophy form like in Classic Mode. Each of you begin with 500 G, and you'll need this to pay your assistants every turn. To have your assistant attack on the main board, you have to pass your opponent or stop on the same space as them. The attack will not occur if you have no Assist Trophy in front of you.

Both players have 150 HP (but you can set this to 250 HP or 300 HP as well). At the start of the game, you both get two assist trophies: one in front and one behind you. Players begin on opposite ends of the boards and move around the board by hitting a spinning die showing 1-8.

Now, let me explain the spaces. There aren't many types, so this will be short.

• Basic Space - Stop on this space to claim that space, and if your opponent stops on it, you'll steal 100 G from them.
• Battle Space - It has the Smash logo on it. Stop here to initiate a match against your opponent. The types of matches you may be in are the same as in Smash Tour.
• Happening Space - Stop here to spin a roulette wheel. Possible happenings include but not limited to regaining health, doubling/tripling/halving your gold, or returning to your start space.

Meet your possible assistants:

• Ashley - 25 ATK/20 HP/75 G- When she's defeated she counterattacks for the same amount of damage before disappearing
• Chain Chomp - 20 ATK/50 HP/200 G - attacks the opponent and any of his partners all at once
• Dark Samus - 30 ATK/30 HP/75 G
• Dillon - 15 ATK/50 HP/30 G
• Elec Man - 25 ATK/25 HP/50 G
• Ghirahim - 35 ATK/40 HP/100 G
• Hammer Bro - 20 ATK/30 HP/25 G
• Isabelle - 10 ATK/15 HP/25 G - has a 35% chance of giving the player Food, a Maxim Tomato, or Heart Container
• Jeff - 45 ATK/45 HP/100 G - his bottle rockets target the opponent's partner furthest from him
• Kat & Ana - 20 ATK/30 HP/75 G - Has a 50% chance of attacking twice
• Knuckle Joe - 25 ATK/25 HP/25 G
• Lakitu & Spinies - 30 ATK/100 HP/150 G - Has a 45% chance of releasing a Spiny; if attack fails, no damage taken
• Lyn - 30 ATK/30 HP/50 G
• Magnus - 50 ATK/50 HP/125 G - can sometimes find anywhere from 50-100 G
• Metroid - 15 ATK/25 HP/100 G - floats over the opponents partner and attacks directly but it disappears immediately afterwards
• Mother Brain - 35 ATK/100 HP/150 G
• Phosphora - 20 HP/50 HP/50 G - can sometimes give the player an extra die but it shows only 1-3
• Saki Amamiya - 30 ATK/50 HP/50 G
• Samurai Goroh - 35 ATK/50 HP/100 G
• Starman - 20 ATK/25 HP/75 G
• Takamaru - 40 ATK/30 HP/50 G
• Waluigi - 25 ATK/25 HP/50 G

These guys attack the same way as before but some have added abilities. Each assistant has their own attack, stamina, and salary. If you don't have enough gold your partner(s) will leave you. To get more gold, you'll have to win one-on-one matches against your opponent. Winning these battles earns 500 G. Do your best in the mini-matches! If you find yourself without an assistant, return to your start space. Here, you'll gain 500 G and get another assistant trophy to place in front or behind you.

In order to increase the pacing of the game, both of you move at the same time. Also, you can choose the length of the game ranging from 10-50 turns (in five turn intervals, mind you). The player with the most stamina after the set number of turns wins. Should both of you have the same amount of stamina, then the amount of gold you both carry will be the tie-breaker. After the game ends, the gold collected can then be used to buy trophies and play other modes.

Good Lord, this has been a long post, hasn't it? I, a woman who has gone to church since the mid-1960s, exalt and commend those who read it. I love y'all; nothing you can do about it. Back to counting Bob-ombs I go...

Sayonara

 

[Mythra]

It's not complicated at all. The idea was also in Rampage World Tour which was as simple a game as they come.

It complicates when you have a +50 character roster; as you need to specify a food and a reasoning behind why they like said food, considering some characters doesn't need to eat , are pretty mysterious , have kinda blank personalities on purpose or lack a sense of taste .

Also you need a way to implement it without conflicting with the current item table (for example, it would be unfair if the Maxim Tomato gives a bonus effect to Kirby, so another food is needed for him) and workaround for characters that use food that probably is their favorite on their movesets .
The special food having individual slots would saturate the table, so a single ON/OFF button for all the fav foods is a way to go if the favorite food is apart from the generic one we have now.

Now:
Certain fav foods will only appear when the character who likes it is on the field?
Characters can share the same favorite food? (For example Mario and Luigi liking Spaghetti) If that's the case, the spawn rate of said food will be increased to keep up with the amount of those characters on the field? (If Mario and Luigi are playing the rate doubles, if 2 Marios and a Luigi play the rate triples, etc.)
What happens if character eats the preferred food of other character?
If a fighter eats their liked food and then eats it again before the effect previous one expires, the boosts stack or renew?
The favorite food replace the generic ones that we have now?

Said questions can be answered and a favorite food system is entirely possible, but coming up with specific food with specific boosts for every single character would be tedious, specially when the generic items we have now give specific boosts work well anyway.

 

[Aurane]

Jigglypuff being cut is just one of those things where you expect it every time, but it never happens. In my opinion though? Its not an impossibility. Jigglypuff's flawless appearance per game doesn't mean she's immune, and honestly, if cutting her gave way for better compensation (thatsnothowitworks), I wouldn't miss her.

Hell I wouldn't miss 'puff period. I never liked her anyways.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just mention a few things about Jigglypuff that make it unique when compared to everyone else.

• Jigglypuff has among the slowest ground mobility of any standard fighter. In the Pokemon games, its base speed is very poor (20), which makes sense.
• Jigglypuff has one of the best air speed statistics of any standard fighter.
• Jigglypuff has the lowest weight value of any fighter. This was not the case in Melee, however, as Pichu was lighter.
• Jigglypuff falls the slowest of any fighter. In fact, it's the only fighter with a falling speed value that goes below 1.
• Jigglypuff is the only fighter with an up special that has always been useless for recovery purposes.

Sure, Jigglypuff may be considered a joke character now, but a fighting title typically isn't complete without that one fighter who's just in over his/her head; Dragon Ball Z has Hercule, while Street Fighter has Dan Hibiki. And being part of the original 12 helps Jigglypuff stick around as well.

 

[Cosmic77]

Man, I didn't know people could get so passionate over Jigglypuff.

Let me get something out of the way - Jigglypuff will never get cut. I was convinced of that once I saw that she returned in Smash 4 without any of her moves being updated to acknowledege the recent addition of Fairy types. Clearly being a part of the original 12 means a lot to Sakurai. Add that onto the fact that she's fairly easy to program and completely unique, and you'll see that's she's (probably) going nowhere.

HOWEVER, I will admit that I think Mewtwo is much more deserving of being on the roster than Puff. Mewtwo has all of the relevancy and popularity that she lacks, and even when Jigglypuff became slightly more relevant in Gen VI, Mewtwo was given two Mega Evolutions and returned in the anime with another movie starring him. Unfortunately, even with all this popularity, he still lacks the title that Jigglypuff holds. If it came down to a decision, Mewtwo would easily be cut over Puff, just for the sake of keeping the original 12. I don't necessarily think it's right to cut someone as iconic as Mewtwo, but I can't deny that he would be a lower priority than the others (save for Greninja).

Sorry if my response about Mewtwo/Jigglypuff's relevancy caused all this. Had I known this would happen, I probably would've chose my words better.

What if in the next Smash game, characters had certain favorite foods and eating them gave them some extra benefit, like speeding them up or giving them extra strength in addition to healing them more?

I'll admit, that does sound a little complicated. Still, if it gives people a chance to learn about the reference for Lucario's affinity for chocolate, I'm all in.

 

[UserKev]

...Did you even read my post? Literally the first sentence in the part about R.O.B. explains why I don't think he'll ever be cut from a Smash game.

Even if I misread it or not, Its a general reminder R.O.B isn't going anywhere.