Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ChocolatGelgato]

Something I noticed today while talking to my neice is that a lot of people playing this game won't actually know half the roster, if even that. The switch is the first nintendo console i think she owned past the 3ds, and mario and splatoon are the only nintendo series she has played really. It sorta put the roster into perspective that for many of us who have been playing since melee/64 we consider most of these characters famous, but in reality most of the most famous of characters have already been added, I think the point of bringing all of nintendo's biggest characters into one game has already been achieved.

Regardless, I'm trying to think of what characters not in smash would truly be considered on the lines of the most popular outside of smash. K Rool is the biggest request unfufilled by a good margin now, but outside of smash and hardcore nintendo fans? K rool is a nobody, he's been mia for years despite his loving following, with the DKC games prefering to use one shot villians instead. At this point, I think there are only 3 true characters that can reach that true "All-Star" popularity level outside of those already in, being recognised by people who dont play smash or only got a nintendo console recently:

-Sumo Pokemon: This is probably the most accepted one, pokemon is huge and each one brings a plethora of characters to base off of. Relevancy points too, This character will likely be the newest rep in the base roster, unless spring man or rex somehow manage to defy expectations and sneak in

-Waddle Dee: Yeah, Kirby is a merch empire in japan, unlike most merch based on popular media, kirby is actually aesthetically pleasing, having a kirby plush in the house actually looks kinda nice in the opposite way that a deadpool funko pop sucks all appeal and dignity out of your living quarters. The shops dedicated to kirby and the cafe that had constant hours long queues during it's short time are a testament to that. Regardless of what you think of waddle dee in smash (Imo it's pretty easy to make them work). Kirby has grown to be one of nintendo's bigger series, and waddle dees remain an icon of this.

-Captain Toad/Toads: Toads are very famous since the first SMB game, and Cpt Toad is one of the few with a unique face and name (outside of RPGs and Toadsworth and probably some other guy please dont list me all named toads thanks). And honestly, If peach had a different down b, i'd consider captain toad a lock, but with peach being the "SMB2 Character", I'm not so sure. while toad ain't impossible still, i do think he has some hurdles to cross that the sumomon and waddle dee don't have to.

A lot of **** i said, but the important thing I wanna say here is that in all honestly, if a character is relevant, popular and important, they're already in smash. So really, there's not really any point trying to stop people predicting characters like Geno, Skull Kid, Banjo in because frankly, at this point, the vast majority of characters left to pick, will be mostly there for the fanservice. Banjo has many problems preventing his inclusion, but not having a game for 10 years ain't one of them. Look at the big predictions every leak has, King K rool and Simon, when have we seen them in a new, relevant game? People still put all their fake leak chips into those 2 coming back for smash tho.

EDIT: I really should give Ashley an honourable mention, as she had some extra stuff in the badge arcade for her, and is in general a popular character in a once again relevant series, but even then i dont think shes close to Pokemon/Waddle Dee/Toad

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

The company can attempt to sue the employee, yes.
But I doubt they'd win the case.

Any time you are employed by a company, you must sign plenty of legal documents stating that you must not share confidential information with anyone outside the company and its partners. Both Nintendo and Spooky Graphic can very well sue if someone were to leak information in this way, and they would most definitely win the case.

That's why I never believe those "I quit my job so **** it" leaks.

EDIT: I am referring to a generic employment NDA, not a project NDA like he talks about in the leak.

 

[lordvaati]

At this point in time,with the possible exception of Lip there really is only one Retro Rep who would be also a surprise character

Spoiler

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Could Isaac be considered retro at this point, you guys think? Or is it still too soon?

 

[Will]

It literally doesn't matter what you personally think or whether or not you disagree, dude.

Sakurai literally said Duck Hunt was the game's "surprise character" in the project proposal for the game. Not Wii Fit Trainer.
Your point is factually dead in the water.

Don't get all serious about it now. I'm just having some fun.
I don't know if Wii Fit Trainer was even mentioned in the project proposal.

 

[Maxoxpower]

Regardless, I'm trying to think of what characters not in smash would truly be considered on the lines of the most popular outside of smash. K Rool is the biggest request unfufilled by a good margin now, but outside of smash and hardcore nintendo fans? K rool is a nobody, he's been mia for years despite his loving following, with the DKC games prefering to use one shot villians instead. At this point, I think there are only 3 true characters that can reach that true "All-Star" popularity level outside of those already in, being recognised by people who dont play smash or only got a nintendo console recently:

.

Smash bros is a game not only for young people who start playing nintendo game ( we got a lot of this in smash 4)
Smash can use more all star or old character that 30year old who grow up with NIntendo will adore!

That's the beauty of SMASH. We need both.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Whether that leak ends up true though - is none here feeling bad for Sakurai if that happens?

Sakurai's been trying to keep SSBU's information under deep wraps within the confinements of his dev team to the point general members in Nintendo don't even know what's happening. To see then many already find out about Gengar (or other legitimate leaks) is bound to sour him pretty harshly there if you think about it - as having someone like Gengar would have been amazing follow-up to how everyone in E3 reacted to Ultimate's full reveal, including some of the higherups in Nintendo.

Now ois gonna be pretty disappointing/unsurprising if this happens now to be true because to us, this shocking swerve of a surprise's pretty much ruined since we see it coming.

 

[Deleted member]

Any time you are employed by a company, you must sign plenty of legal documents stating that you must not share confidential information with anyone outside the company and its partners. Both Nintendo and Spooky Graphic can very well sue if someone were to leak information in this way, and they would most definitely win the case.

That's why I never believe those "I quit my job so **** it" leaks.

According to the leak itself, he never was asked to sign an agreement.

That legitimately can put an issue with any lawsuit.
Not saying one is impossible to happen or that the defense can't lose if one were to happen, but the outright lack of an agreement would make such a suit questionable.

 

[Will]

Could Isaac be considered retro at this point, you guys think? Or is it still too soon?

Gamecube isn't considered retro, so therefore neither would the GBA.
I wish there was an easier "official" method of describing what's retro. Maybe by game generation standpoint or by some type of year system.

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

Funny thing is, this sort of thing kinda means little for the leaks such as this bad boy:

View attachment 154092
Nintendo would have little control over information like this from an animation company that has done work on trailers...
Gengar is coming, bois.
I've been tryin' to get y'all ready for it. :V

Even without a "leak" like this, people are really sleeping on another Gen 1 Pokemon. I understand it's undesirable for some, but Gamefreak is pushing Gen 1 just as hard as they are Gen 7 right now, and I'm certain that, of all the Pokemon mentioned on the Smash Ballot, a Gen 1 Pokemon scored the highest.

 

[Will]

I'm certain that, of all the Pokemon mentioned on the Smash Ballot, a Gen 1 Pokemon scored the highest.

Unless it was the Pokemon Trainer I doubt it.

 

[Idon]

Whether that leak ends up true though - is none here feeling bad for Sakurai if that happens?

Sakurai's been trying to keep SSBU's information under deep wraps within the confinements of his dev team to the point general members in Nintendo don't even know what's happening. To see then many already find out about Gengar (or other legitimate leaks) is bound to sour him pretty harshly there if you think about it.

So if assuming Gengar is actually a thing, it would have been amazing follow-up to how everyone in E3 reacted to Ultimate's full reveal, including some of the higherups in Nintendo. It's gonna be pretty bumming if this happens now to be true because to us, this shocking swerve of a surprise's pretty much ruined as we see it coming.

Whether that leak ends up true though - is none here feeling bad for Sakurai if that happens?

Sakurai's been trying to keep SSBU's information under deep wraps within the confinements of his dev team to the point general members in Nintendo don't even know what's happening. To see then many already find out about Gengar (or other legitimate leaks) is bound to sour him pretty harshly there if you think about it.

So if assuming Gengar is actually a thing, it would have been amazing follow-up to how everyone in E3 reacted to Ultimate's full reveal, including some of the higherups in Nintendo. It's gonna be pretty bumming if this happens now to be true because to us, this shocking swerve of a surprise's pretty much ruined as we see it coming.

I'd feel bad if Sakurai didn't drive home in a slick red sports car.
Besides, leaks only affect those looking for them like us. Otherwise, we have 90% of the community still being surprised by everything.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sonic has interacted with every 3rd party character playable in Smash...except for Snake...damn you Snake

 

[Zerp]

If the employee's not under any NDA and is leaving the company anyway, what can they legally do if he spreads information that he was never under any contract to keep hidden?

Oh wait, he's not under contract? That's pretty crazy, but anyway if he isn't under a binding contract then there's I don't know what SpookyGraphic can do, but then again I don't know Japanese law lol. Although, I'd imagine Nintendo would at least try to set up special measures or something to ensure a lack of leaks, and I have a feeling leaking something Nintendo would forbid without their permission would probably be illegal, but yeah, I don't know what's going on here so don't take my word for anything on this lol.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: I am referring to a generic employment NDA, not a project NDA like he talks about in the leak.

In that case, a lawsuit is probable.

....but at the same time, the supposed leaker could have easily overlooked that considering they thought themselves to be in the clear.

And we know for a fact people tend to do things without thinking of every possible ramification if they simply believe there are none.

 

[Idon]

Could Isaac be considered retro at this point, you guys think? Or is it still too soon?

Nah, the "retro" status hasn't even gone to the 1990's yet. It's hardly retro if it came out around Melee.

 

[Arcanir]

I think the better question we should be asking is why Nintendo wouldn't put the company and all its employees under NDA in the first place. I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but it's pretty clear that Sakurai and Nintendo as a whole are trying their best to keep things under wraps and have been taking steps to ensure that it stays that way. So with that said, allowing a company that does their character trailers, who would definitely be in a position to know who's coming next in that case since they are specific in their nature, off the hook while others are kept under strict guard would be questionable at best, absolutely dense on their part at worst.

The only way I can see that guy being legit is if he wasn't given the contract, but the company was, but even in that case I'd think the company themselves would be strict on their employees since they'd be the ones getting hit by the wrath of Nintendo if their employees decided to leak at their expense.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If the employee's not under any NDA and is leaving the company anyway, what can they legally do if he spreads information that he was never under any contract to keep hidden?

They can blacklist him. Information spreads within any industry, and if you leak information, even if you're technically not under an NDA, that shows that you're untrustworthy and therefore a risk to any project. Spooky Graphics is on mr. leakerman's resume, so potential employers call them up to ask about him. Spooky Graphics lets other companies know about how much of a risk this guy is and, not surprisingly, now mr. leakerman can't get any jobs.

Have fun working at McDonalds.

 

[Will]

Nah, the "retro" status hasn't even gone to the 1990's yet. It's hardly retro if it came out around Melee.

I think Sakurai's idea of retro is NES era, which isn't necessarily wrong. But a lot of the general public who know a thing or two about their vidya will probably pin retro around SNES/N64. Again there's no real official label, but since we have the NES and SNES classic I think the SNES can warrant a retro by normal standards I guess?

 

[MagnesD3]

There was this post on the Smash Reddit that I thought was cool so here it is.

Can your most wanted character pass the "Sakurai" Test?

You must answer each question with detailed answers and not with simple yes or no responses. I have included Sakurai’s quotes to justify my questions. I am also limiting my questions based on what quotes that I can find from Sakurai that way i'm not projecting anything I believe should be asked for the character.



For any third party characters

1. How iconic is your character within its own company? Would you say it is the #1 most iconic character that they have made? Is your character the protagonist of its own series? Explain.

2. Are both Parties (Companies) open to letting the character be in Smash? Has the creator of the character stated openly that they would allow the use of their IP?

3. Can your Character Dance? Meaning: What is unique about your character? Does your character potentially offer a fighting style that is unique to the roster?

Here's the original post: https://old.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/90zqq0/can_your_most_wanted_character_pass_the_sakurai/

1. Banjo-Kazooie is the most Iconic character at rare and is the protagonist of his own series

2. Yes they absolutely are based on Phil Spencer and Rare, the ball is in Nintendo's court

3. Between BK's various egg, feather and duo technique's the duo have a ton of variety, uniqueness and overall stuff to work with

Bonus:

They have huge history with Nintendo since they were born on a nintendo console. The pair were meant for inclusion in Melee and had a ton of support during the smash 4 DLC polling days. Also nintendo and microsoft have been buddy buddy as of late with Minecraft.

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

Unless it was the Pokemon Trainer I doubt it.

The only one I could see beating a Gen 1 Pokemon is Sceptile, as it's the only Pokemon that had any organized backing at the time of the Smash ballot. Past that, if someone wanted to vote for a Pokemon on the ballot, they would almost certainly pick their favorite Pokemon. And, like it or not, Generation 1 holds the most nostalgia in peoples hearts.

 

[lordvaati]

Could Isaac be considered retro at this point, you guys think? Or is it still too soon?

Retro=20+ years
so like N64/GBC era and earlier.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I'd feel bad if Sakurai didn't drive home in a slick red sports car.
Besides, leaks only affect those looking for them like us. Otherwise, we have 90% of the community still being surprised by everything.

Except Youtube and rest of the internet exists to spread the hell out of these things, since all these Smash/Nintendo-fans + Tubers as hungry for this info as we are around here. So this is gonna spread like wildfire.

Can only hope this is a fake leak spread that's Nintendo's doing to keep their quality control going.

 

[Will]

Also nintendo and microsoft have been buddy buddy as of late with Minecraft.

I don't know man, sounds like a lot of Steve to me.

The only one I could see beating a Gen 1 Pokemon is Sceptile, as it's the only Pokemon that had any organized backing at the time of the Smash ballot. Past that, if someone wanted to vote for a Pokemon on the ballot, they would almost certainly pick their favorite Pokemon. And, like it or not, Generation 1 holds the most nostalgia in peoples hearts.

Can you give any examples?
I don't consider that popular.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't know man, sounds like a lot of Steve to me.


Can you give any examples?
I don't consider that popular.

Steve would be horrible ("ew"), the only way id be ok with that sin is if BK was apart of the deal. Otherwise Id rather have nothing from them.

 

[Will]

Can only hope this is a fake leak spread that's Nintendo's doing to keep their quality control going.

Toby is definitely going to earn that Employee of the Month award now.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

In that case, a lawsuit is probable.

....but at the same time, the supposed leaker could have easily overlooked that considering they thought themselves to be in the clear.

And we know for a fact people tend to do things without thinking of every possible ramification if they simply believe there are none.

I mean, I guess. But that would have to go with the idea that this guy never wants to be employed by anyone in the industry again, lol. NDA or not, it's a prick move to leak something like that. You'd be surprised at how much of a small world the gaming industry is-- I'm sure anyone who does something like this on purpose would immediately become black listed from a slew of gaming companies and affiliates.

But I digress, if it's real, then he's an idiot and in deep ****. But it's probably just a fake leaker who didn't think about all of the angles.

 

[Icedragonadam]

Wait hold on, what's this about Gengar?

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

Toby is definitely going to earn that Employee of the Month award now.

Ding ding. Thank you sir. Said Toby

 

[Zerp]

I don't consider that popular.

He is though, here, have a look.

Spoiler: Big image

United States:

Worldwide:

Worldwide Past 5 years:

Even when the ballot was happening he was getting more searches than Sceptile and he overall manages to outperform Jigglypuff as well.

 

[SirCamp]

So I sort of asked this question in the Captain Syrup character support thread, but nobody is really interacting with that particular thread sadly, so I figure I'd ask it here as well. But as far as first party characters go, what is it that really separates the super popular requests from those that are relatively ignored?

I asked this in the Captain Syrup thread specifically because I find that she is an interesting case. If you compare her to King K Rool for example, they are quite similar in what they have going for them with the exception of K. Rool's very obvious massive popularity (on the internet).

But if you think about it both characters are older, classic characters that aren't particularly relevant now. But they are recurring villains in their series. They were each in a similar number of games (4 for K Rool, 3 for Syrup). And those series are not particularly obscure series either, and in fact both can be tied to Mario. Both have a fair amount to work with in terms of design for Smash Bros. Captain Syrup actually has the benefit of being relevant more recently having been in Wario Land Shake It on the Wii. Not really relevant, but still more so than K Rool, as far as I'm aware anyway. And to the extent that you care about this, she is also a potential female character.

Despite those similarities though, King K. Rool is massively popular to the point where he is the most expected character, while Captain Syrup apparently JUST got her own support thread as of like a week ago. The difference is incredibly stark, and I don't really understand why?

I do get that there is a lot of intangibility in terms of what makes a character compelling and thus popular. So I don't really expect her to have the same, or even similar amount of support. I mean perhaps her character just doesn't connect with as many people. But that just doesn't seem to account for just how vast the difference in popularity seems to be.

Was Wario Land in general just that much less popular than the DKC games? Or do you think the online support in communities like these is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy? It seems to me, that a fair amount of K Rool support (and before you say anything I do support K. Rool myself) sort of begets itself. Which is to say that after a certain point people start to support characters they deem to be popular almost as a matter of course, simply because the environment on these boards makes them appear to be such an obvious choice. The support snowballs and sort of distorts people's perception of what is likely I think. I imagine a large number of people also learned about and support K Rool through these boards, but obviously the same can't really be said for Syrup given that people just don't talk about her, either because they don't care, or just don't think she's likely (again despite many similarities with one of the most expected characters). I wonder if things would look different if Syrup had a small dedicated group of fanboys pushing for support for her as long as K Rool has. Would people now think of her as a shoo-in in a similar way?

Anyway, just sort of makes me think about what other characters we might be writing off as a community.

 

[TheDukeofDorks]

Can you give any examples?
I don't consider that popular.

I haven't been talking about Gengar specifically, just a Gen 1 Pokemon in general. I don't know which one it would be, but I could see one happening. Gamefreak has been focusing on bringing old fans of the series back into the fold in recent years (Pokemon Go, Let's Go Eevee/Pikachu, Alolan Forms, Rainbow Rocket, etc.), and Gen 1 Pokemon are by far the most popular. It's entirely possible that they continue that trend into Smash Brothers.

Interesting enough, Source Gaming did run a poll on how much people wanted potential newcomers. It's by no means official data, but it's the biggest sample size we've got.
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/10/08/sgpollingresults1/
Of ALL potential Pokemon, Sceptile is first, obviously, as that was the one Pokemon that the core fanbase wanted (Completing the grass trio and whatnot). But once it gets down to personal preferences, once people start looking at Pokemon in general, guess who scored the highest?
(EDIT: #52 overall specifically, for the curious)

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I had a wild dream that Sakurai announced this would be his step down from Smash for real at the end of DLC and that his final DLC character was actually called ''President" and you could choose between various past and president Nintendo presidents from Nintendo Japan/America, etc.

They had a moveset based on using various gadgets and things from Nintendo's history like controllers, Hanafuda cards, consoles, amiibo, etc to fight.

I woke up thinking it was such a strange, but actually cool idea that would be my only way I'd like REAL people in Smash Brothers considering how the Presidents and the various things they were using in my dream ARE a huge part of Nintendo history.

 

[Rosalinatehplumber]

Gengar got in Pokken Tournment because of popularity. That was around 2015 when the ballot was opened so....

 

[Idon]

I had a wild dream that Sakurai announced this would be his step down from Smash for real at the end of DLC and that his final DLC character was actually called ''President" and you could choose between various past and president Nintendo presidents from Nintendo Japan/America, etc.

They had a moveset based on using various gadgets and things from Nintendo's history like controllers, Hanafuda cards, consoles, amiibo, etc to fight.

I woke up thinking it was such a strange, but actually cool idea that would be my only way I'd like REAL people in Smash Brothers considering how the Presidents and the various things they were using in my dream ARE a huge part of Nintendo history.

I dunno how I would feel about attacking old Japanese men in a Smash game...

 

[Will]

He is though, here, have a look.

Spoiler: Big image

United States:View attachment 154100Worldwide: View attachment 154101Worldwide Past 5 years:View attachment 154102Even when the ballot was happening he was getting more searches than Sceptile and he overall manages to outperform Jigglypuff as well.

I'm still skeptical.
But jeez what happened with jigglypuff in late 2016

EDIT: Skeptical as in being included in Smash.

 

[KMDP]

Man, I woke up to 92 alerts today.

Not really that good with guessing, but as people have mentioned before, July is thr sun, august is pirates, september...? October is demons, and november is helicopters. I think...


You’ve got some nice reveals there.

Ok, for mine...not much time left in July, and I think that one of DaybreakHorizon ’s fake leaks had this first one as a reveal anyway, so here goes...
...this is a lot harder than I’d expected...
July: Dovahkiin and Simon Belmont
Aug: Spring Man and K. Rool
Sept: Azura and Urbosa
Oct: Decidueye and Ashley
Nov: Tails and Amaterasu

What do Geno and Shadow have in common?

Geno and Shadow's connection was "Born in Space". Yes, it's super esoteric, but I had to have a hard one in there.
Dixie and Tails were actually "Platformer Sequel Partner Characters", but "Helicopters" works too.

As for Captain America's reveals...
Dovakiin and Simon - Monster Killers
Spring Man and K. Rool - ...I... don't know. XD
Azura and Urbosa - ...Dance battlers?
Decidueye and Ashley - Shy characters?
Tails and Amaterasu - Canines

You! Yes you. You sir, are a genius

Flattery will get you everywhere.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I dunno how I would feel about attacking old Japanese men in a Smash game...

If you chose Reggie your body would be ready for it though.

And technically don't you already attack elderly Japanese men considering how old certain characters like Marth are?

The thing that MIGHT be weird for me is attacking the presidents who have passed away though.

 

[KingIceSonic]

K Rool was expected but I'm actually surprised with Gengar and it honestly makes sense.

That sounds like something Sakurai would do. It would also be cool to have a pokemon that is not just a starter

 

[Zerp]

I'm still skeptical.
But jeez what happened with jigglypuff in late 2016

EDIT: Skeptical as in being included in Smash.

Pokemon Go is what happened to Jigglypuff and Gengar, but yeah, this doesn't mean that much for Smash, I'm just trying to show it's possible for there to be a silent majority of Gengar fans voting in the ballot over Sceptile, since outside of the online Smash fanbase the character is clearly more popular and well known overall than Sceptile.