Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Roberto zampari]

If it came down to only having one of them, I'd much rather have Snake's codecs. Palutena's guidance was kinda meh for me personally.

Snake's codecs, however, are all gold. Especially Luigi's.

Do you really dislike the Palutena's guidance? Explain why.

 

[Garteam]

I genuinely wonder how the general fanbase outside of this forum will react if neither Spring Man nor Rex ends up playable in the base roster.

My guess is it will be mostly surprise rather than disappointment, if 4chan's opinions are anything to go by. Rex and Springman are more characters who are expected rather than straight up hyped.

Then again, 4Chan also really wants Louie as a playable character, so they may not be the best example on general opinions.

 

[Deleted member]

Lyn likely didn't get in because she's far from being a top priority pick, especially in late 2015-early 2016 when characters would have been decided.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Well, the villains popular in Japan are already in. In the Melee poll, four of the five top votes were for "antagonists": Bowser, Dedede, Wario, and Ganondorf. And they like K. Rool. They're just less interested in Metroid overall. Fwiw they are (or were) more interested in F-Zero and Mother villains than us. They also care more about Magolor than we do.

How many remaining villains do we as westerners even clamour loudly for? K. Rool... and... Dark Samus? And these days it's mostly because of the echo.

Waluigi.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

The whole leaks thing

Here's another fun one

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/424801625

Spoiler: Supposive leak

Unique fighters

King k rool
Geno
Yuri lowell
Travis touchdown

Echos
Dark samus
Shadow
Hilda

Brawl style break the targe
Race to the finish
Adventure mode: you chose between the one from melee or the new one

I call it the cracker leak

Supposed leak.

 

[Garteam]

Do you really dislike the Palutena's guidance? Explain why.

I don't dislike Palutena's Guidance, but I definitely prefer the codecs. The codecs seem to focus more on the guest characters rather than the characters speaking, which is much more interesting (For example, the Pokemon Trainer Codec is mostly a discussion over the relationship between trainer and Pokemon, while Charizard's guidance is 1/3 a discussion about Charizard and 2/3 Pit, Palutena, and Viridi bickering over nothing). Likewise, the codecs take themselves more seriously, which makes them funnier to listen to.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

DaybreakHorizon any new interesting/lulzy/too good to be true leaks happen lately my dude?

 

[MSmariosonic]

I'd take Snake yelling "Falcon Puuuunch" over Pit being pessimistic about his wings any day

 

[Deleted member]

Likewise, the codecs take themselves more seriously, which makes them funnier to listen to.

That's where a lot of the charm in Metal Gear comes from. Everything is taken with the utmost seriousness, and then stuff like this happens:

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I don't dislike Palutena's Guidance, but I definitely prefer the codecs. The codecs seem to focus more on the guest characters rather than the characters speaking, which is much more interesting (For example, the Pokemon Trainer Codec is mostly a discussion over the relationship between trainer and Pokemon, while Charizard's guidance is 1/3 a discussion about Charizard and 2/3 Pit, Palutena, and Viridi bickering over nothing). Likewise, the codecs take themselves more seriously, which makes them funnier to listen to.

I'll agree with that. I'm not a fan of Kid Icarus's humor (or Kid Icarus in general) so the guidance was eye-rollingly cringy for everything. Meanwhile, the codecs were interesting and humorous to me even though I knew less that nothing about Metal Gear.

If I wanted a funny codec, give me Cranky Kong instead.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll agree with that. I'm not a fan of Kid Icarus's humor (or Kid Icarus in general) so the guidance was eye-rollingly cringy for everything. Meanwhile, the codecs were interesting and humorous to me even though I knew less that nothing about Metal Gear.

If I wanted a funny codec, give me Cranky Kong instead.

If we had a Cranky Kong codec type thing, Zelda's should just be this

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I don't know anything about how acting unions work, but both are union actors, and David Hayter is credited in Brawl as "David Hayter (Special Guest)." So they've been able to work around union rules before.

Steve Burton's contract must be a huge mess of legal issues

Yeah, there wasn't really a point to this it all and I prefer Japanese Cloud anyway,


Eggman is an important enough character that retiring him simply isn't an option, so he was recast.

I don’t really care what language Cloud speaks as long as I can make him suffer using Pit

Speaking of Pit, both he and Virid had their voice actor/actress (Anthony Del Rio and Hynden Walch) not be credited, while Magnus and Phosphora had to be recasted (Palutena would’ve kept the same voice as she did in Uprising, but her actress was busy)

 

[Metal Shop X]

While I love both Codec and Guidance, I admit that the coded were more interesting. I love KIU, but even the writting for some felt really meh at time. Which is weird since Uprising, imo, is quit good when to referencing other franchise, Metroid anyone?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I personally prefer the Palutena’s Guidances, but they barely edge out the Snake Codec Calls. Neither had a bad anything for me and must have a crossover together (Serious Snake and Joyful Pit not allowing one another to know each other’s secrets and ways to win the battle would be fun...only for Palutena or Viridi to spoil literally everything about Snake and Otacon not able to get anything on a Pit due to a goddess block, which is just as bad as a friendzone)

 

[Deleted member]

Codecs and Guidances are has-been.

We need Doc Louis's tips next.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Codecs and Guidances are has-been.

We need Doc Louis's tips next.

How about...all three together (also the Star Fox stuff, but they only talk to/about themselves)

 

[Roberto zampari]

I hope Sakurai includes new Starfox conversations...

The inclusion of Peppy Hare in Orbital Gate ruined everything.

 

[SquashiniKun]

Balancing all 60+ characters is very difficult and it takes a ton of work. Thats a big reason why there will probably be less newcomers than we are used to.

I'm calling it now, we're gonna get 1 more newcomer (Most likely Simon) & nothing else.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I love KI:U, but a couple of Palutena's Guidances were upsetting to me.

What do they mean Charizard can't fly? His run animation is litterally just him flying. Yeah it's purely aesthetic but actual flight is among Charizard's canonical abilities. Even his up special is called Fly.

Also they went a little too far throwing shade at Chrom - I don't blame his fans for feeling insulted at that, especially since Smash has never been above just making up recovery moves for character's in the past.

I enjoyed most of them, but those two will still always bug me.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I hope Sakurai includes new Starfox conversations...

The inclusion of Peppy Hare in Orbital Gate ruined everything.

Dunno what you mean. Slippy's ten times more annoying, especially with that voice.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Dunno what you mean. Slippy's ten times more annoying, especially with that voice.

I'm talking about that Peppy Hare isn't in Orbital Gate during the Aparoid Incident.
He's presumably dead along with General Pepper.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Yup, I've been thinking a long time now, with the fact that it's been a month and we didn't have any substancial new information... I'm pretty sure we get less than 5 newcomers (excluding echo) this time around. I'm probably betting around 2 more and that's it, and like 2 or 3 echo. DLC is always an option, but for the base game, Sakurai wasn't being pessimistic this time around, he had a lot of time to put a lot of people on Smash 4 besides saying to the contrary. He has 5 months here (of course i'm aware new characters are probably almost finalized, but still, if he had a lot we'd be hearing about them now)

Well, the villains popular in Japan are already in. In the Melee poll, four of the five top votes were for "antagonists": Bowser, Dedede, Wario, and Ganondorf. And they like K. Rool. They're just less interested in Metroid overall. Fwiw they are (or were) more interested in F-Zero and Mother villains than us. They also care more about Magolor than we do.

How many remaining villains do we as westerners even clamour loudly for? K. Rool... and... Dark Samus? And these days it's mostly because of the echo.

I'm still sitting over here, hoping that Captain Syrup's existence will be noticed someday.

Also, having Black Shadow, Medusa/Hades/Pandora, Sylux and Masked Man would be nice too.

I'm not really sure why we keep expecting substantial new info when we got 90% of the game upfront. At this point I'm only expecting 3 more newcomers to go with Nintendo Directs (Simon, Pre-Launch, & Post Launch) with Echoes being pointless to guess numbers on.



I do remember hearing Japan support Black Shadow as a character, though I think that had to do more with his VA.

You always must respect Norio "God" Wakamoto.

That said, I can see DLC being heavily substantial this time around.

Paul Eiding voiced Colonel Campbell in English and he’s still alive. Japan takes VO casting very seriously though, and in the case of a VO’s death, they either retire the character (like with Campbell when his Japanese VO died) or reuse clips ad infinitum (like Igor in Persona after 4). It’s not very often they recast, one exception being the Japanese VO of Mitsuru’s dad between vanilla Persona 3 and FES/Portable.

And as mentioned they always recast if the character is very important and recurring, like with Eggman.

Then there's Heihachi Mishima, with Namco going as far as making him younger when they recasted for him with Tessho Genda, after Daisuke Gouri's unfortunate passing.

Codecs and Guidances are has-been.

We need Doc Louis's tips next.

"Watch out for that tongue, son, he'll eat you faster than I eat these bars! By the way, what's Yoshi's favorite egg? Mine's chocolate!"

 

[Deleted member]

What do they mean Charizard can't fly? His run animation is litterally just him flying. Yeah it's purely aesthetic but actual flight is among Charizard's canonical abilities. Even his up special is called Fly.

"Those wings might be majestic to look at, but they don't help much in the flying or gliding department."

This seems like a reference to how gliding was removed, or how terrible Charizard's jumps, air mobility and recovery are.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I hope Sakurai includes new Starfox conversations...

The inclusion of Peppy Hare in Orbital Gate ruined everything.

I'd love to get some new Star Fox comms with voices more akin to Star Fox Zero. I just really hope they bring Krystal back where its appropriate, such as on Orbital Gate Assault. Granted, with everything being Star Fox Zero themed, Krystal may not return for the comms since she wasn't on the team yet. But at the same time, she's an Assist Trophy now, so surely she has a voice actress. Could go either way.

I'm talking about that Peppy Hare isn't in Orbital Gate during the Aparoid Incident.
He's presumably dead along with General Pepper.

Peppy was there for the Orbital Gate mission in Star Fox Assault, but he wasn't one of the pilots. General Pepper wasn't there, though, but he did survive the events on Corneria.

 

[SmashingXan2]

I'm calling it now, we're gonna get 1 more newcomer (Most likely Simon) & nothing else.

Highly doubt it

 

[Roberk]

Well then I'm sure you realize this but you're in the minority. It isn't fair that the FE fan base keeps on getting their wants met by Sakurai, but the much bigger fan bases of the other franchises can't even get a third character (DK

Do you honestly believe, that the FE fanbase actually likes the representation it gets in Smash?

Let's break it down.

Marth: A character that no one in the West could truly experience until 2008's Shadow Dragon. While the game has a neutral reception now, it was definitely on the weaker side of FE compared to the recent GBA games and Tellius games. Marth is admirable as a character, but overall he's pretty bland to many and the only nostalgia for him in the West comes from Smash/Melee.

Roy: For a long time considered the worst FE lord. Corrin set that bar pretty low but for a long time, Roy was the worst. His character really only comes out in deep supports (which are grindy as hell in the GBA games) so for the main story he's pretty dull. Casuals have this idea of Roy being a fiery hothead but in reality, he's a calculating tactician who keeps his head cool during everything. While admirable, it doesn't allow for him to better show that much emotion and he comes off as boring. Also, still Japan only, so no actual nostalgia for him aside from Smash/Melee.

Ike: One of the better reps, but that's only in hindsight. From the start, Ike was a relevancy character as Path of Radiance released in 2005 and Brawl started development in 2005. He has a unique moveset, but it grossly ignores even more unique things he could pull from like sword beams, axes, etc. Ike is stupid popular amongst casuals but that's mainly because of Brawl because the performance of his games is what set the franchise downhill to almost being canceled. (No marketing, releasing week of Super Mario Galaxy, etc.) People really appreciate the Tellius games now (see Path of Radiance's value on Ebay) but in the end, Ike was a relevancy character that had missed potential.

Robin: Now this is where the fun begins. Robin seems to have a pretty good rep in the Smash fanbase for being unique and from Awakening, but Robin is heavily contentious in the FE fanbase. He was the start of making overly self-insert avatar characters mainstream, and some see that as ruining some of the most important aspects of the franchise. (Story, characters, etc.) Another problem with Robin is shared with Lucina...

Lucina: Another Awakening rep. Up to Smash 4, there were 11 mainline games that weren't remakes, 13 games in total. Marth represents two games, Ike represents a game and a half (RIP Micaiah), and Roy represents 1 game. Robin was already representing Awakening, so that's about 5-6 completely unique games that could've been repped. Even if Lucina's slot could've only been an Echo: Celica from FE2 could've worked (sorry Opossum), Seliph from FE4 could've worked, Leif from FE5 could've worked, Eliwood from FE7 could've worked, and Eirika from FE8 could've worked. But no, while Lucina is technically a "Lord" she's ultimately a side character in Awakening (which was already repped) yet she was chosen over a lot of other options. (If anyone quotes me saying that Lucina is an Echo so she doesn't matter then only argue about 5 FE reps being too much.) This isn't even including Lucina's sword being shrunk in half to fit Marth's Falchion and her not canonically fighting like Chrom, so the character that is overrepping Awakening got misrepresented.

Corrin: Overall I bet the FE fanbase wishes Corrin wasn't an FE character. I don't need to go too much into it, but from Fate's story, characters, and how it is overly represented in everything FE after it, people really don't like Fates. Also, as the old saying goes: "Nobody hates FE more than FE fans". People hate Corrin on a surface level in the Smash fanbase but in-depth hate for Corrin goes around in the FE fanbase all the time.

Also, only one out of the 3 stages is from an actual location. From Awakening. No items. Lyn, the most popular FE character and one of the only highly popular characters who has genuine popularity (not just popular from Smash) is the only assist trophy.

Conclusion: All of the playable characters are either shoo-in first-protagonist Marth or convenient-relevancy-pick literally everyone else. The minuscule representation of potential is gross when it's a franchise that has axes, lances, bows, transforming stones, armors, pegasi, wyvern, horses, and multiple games to represent while the 3DS era takes up half the characters. Stages are a joke with the only stage that represents an actual location being on the 3DS and representing Awakening which got 2 playable characters. No items when there are vulneraries (healing pots), various stat power-ups which are rare for Smash items, etc. The only Assist Trophy for a series of hundreds of playable characters that "Assist" the protagonist on their quests is the most popular FE character who'd have a unique moveset for both FE and Smash.

I'm sorry, but don't hate the player, hate the game. The fanbase did nothing wrong and if it got what it would want and be satisfied with then the FE representation in Smash would be very different. Don't act like there are a bunch of people dancing around laughing as their somewhat niche little franchise seemingly destroys Smash Bros as a whole (at least that's what I can gather from how people react to it.)

(This isn't objective (nothing about this topic is) but it's what I can tell from the general fanbase and as a fan myself.)

Spoiler: Awakening Apology to avoid flame

To Awakening fans: In this, I might have hated on Awakening but that's not the case (I actually like the game), I'm just saying that while it was significant it's a majority of the only representation of FE in Smash while it has a ton of other things to pull from.

 

[ZephyrZ]

"Those wings might be majestic to look at, but they don't help much in the flying or gliding department."

This seems like a reference to how gliding was removed, or how terrible Charizard's jumps, air mobility and recovery are.

On the flip side his unique run animation came with the 8th fastest run speed in the game. Also, his recovery is amazing. Flare Blitz covers a massive distance, has armor, doesn't put him into free fall, and is extremely dangerous to gaurd against. Fly is armored as well - I've traded with a lot of Falcon dairs and won thanks to it.

 

[Deleted member]

On the flip side his unique run animation came with the 8th fastest run speed in the game. Also, his recovery is amazing. Flare Blitz covers a massive distance, has armor, doesn't put him into free fall, and is extremely dangerous to gaurd against. Fly is armored as well - I've traded with a lot of Falcon dairs and won thanks to it.

I forgot Flare Blitz existed lol. I recently played through Brawl and he doesn't have Flare Blitz there. I also had no clue that Fly had armor on it. I just don't play against Charizard enough, I guess. I'd still argue that his jumping is terrible though, especially in comparison to the other characters who have wings.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Do you honestly believe, that the FE fanbase actually likes the representation it gets in Smash?

Let's break it down.

Marth: A character that no one in the West could truly experience until 2008's Shadow Dragon. While the game has a neutral reception now, it was definitely on the weaker side of FE compared to the recent GBA games and Tellius games. Marth is admirable as a character, but overall he's pretty bland to many and the only nostalgia for him in the West comes from Smash/Melee.

Roy: For a long time considered the worst FE lord. Corrin set that bar pretty low but for a long time, Roy was the worst. His character really only comes out in deep supports (which are grindy as hell in the GBA games) so for the main story he's pretty dull. Casuals have this idea of Roy being a fiery hothead but in reality, he's a calculating tactician who keeps his head cool during everything. While admirable, it doesn't allow for him to better show that much emotion and he comes off as boring. Also, still Japan only, so no actual nostalgia for him aside from Smash/Melee.

Ike: One of the better reps, but that's only in hindsight. From the start, Ike was a relevancy character as Path of Radiance released in 2005 and Brawl started development in 2005. He has a unique moveset, but it grossly ignores even more unique things he could pull from like sword beams, axes, etc. Ike is stupid popular amongst casuals but that's mainly because of Brawl because the performance of his games is what set the franchise downhill to almost being canceled. (No marketing, releasing week of Super Mario Galaxy, etc.) People really appreciate the Tellius games now (see Path of Radiance's value on Ebay) but in the end, Ike was a relevancy character that had missed potential.

Robin: Now this is where the fun begins. Robin seems to have a pretty good rep in the Smash fanbase for being unique and from Awakening, but Robin is heavily contentious in the FE fanbase. He was the start of making overly self-insert avatar characters mainstream, and some see that as ruining some of the most important aspects of the franchise. (Story, characters, etc.) Another problem with Robin is shared with Lucina...

Lucina: Another Awakening rep. Up to Smash 4, there were 11 mainline games that weren't remakes, 13 games in total. Marth represents two games, Ike represents a game and a half (RIP Micaiah), and Roy represents 1 game. Robin was already representing Awakening, so that's about 5-6 completely unique games that could've been repped. Even if Lucina's slot could've only been an Echo: Celica from FE2 could've worked (sorry Opossum), Seliph from FE4 could've worked, Leif from FE5 could've worked, Eliwood from FE7 could've worked, and Eirika from FE8 could've worked. But no, while Lucina is technically a "Lord" she's ultimately a side character in Awakening (which was already repped) yet she was chosen over a lot of other options. (If anyone quotes me saying that Lucina is an Echo so she doesn't matter then only argue about 5 FE reps being too much.) This isn't even including Lucina's sword being shrunk in half to fit Marth's Falchion and her not canonically fighting like Chrom, so the character that is overrepping Awakening got misrepresented.

Corrin: Overall I bet the FE fanbase wishes Corrin wasn't an FE character. I don't need to go too much into it, but from Fate's story, characters, and how it is overly represented in everything FE after it, people really don't like Fates. Also, as the old saying goes: "Nobody hates FE more than FE fans". People hate Corrin on a surface level in the Smash fanbase but in-depth hate for Corrin goes around in the FE fanbase all the time.

Also, only one out of the 3 stages is from an actual location. From Awakening. No items. Lyn, the most popular FE character and one of the only highly popular characters who has genuine popularity (not just popular from Smash) is the only assist trophy.

Conclusion: All of the playable characters are either shoo-in first-protagonist Marth or convenient-relevancy-pick literally everyone else. The minuscule representation of potential is gross when it's a franchise that has axes, lances, bows, transforming stones, armors, pegasi, wyvern, horses, and multiple games to represent while the 3DS era takes up half the characters. Stages are a joke with the only stage that represents an actual location being on the 3DS and representing Awakening which got 2 playable characters. No items when there are vulneraries (healing pots), various stat power-ups which are rare for Smash items, etc. The only Assist Trophy for a series of hundreds of playable characters that "Assist" the protagonist on their quests is the most popular FE character who'd have a unique moveset for both FE and Smash.

I'm sorry, but don't hate the player, hate the game. The fanbase did nothing wrong and if it got what it would want and be satisfied with then the FE representation in Smash would be very different. Don't act like there are a bunch of people dancing around laughing as their somewhat niche little franchise seemingly destroys Smash Bros as a whole (at least that's what I can gather from how people react to it.)

(This isn't objective (nothing about this topic is) but it's what I can tell from the general fanbase and as a fan myself.)

Spoiler: Awakening Apology to avoid flame

To Awakening fans: In this, I might have hated on Awakening but that's not the case (I actually like the game), I'm just saying that while it was significant it's a majority of the only representation of FE in Smash while it has a ton of other things to pull from.

Slight correction, Robin wasn't the first avatar in FE, that title belongs to Kris, who is quite literally "Did you know Marth had this super cool friend he could always rely on that he loves more than his wife and is simply perfect? Did you know that they're *gasp* YOU?"

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'm talking about that Peppy Hare isn't in Orbital Gate during the Aparoid Incident.
He's presumably dead along with General Pepper.

Smash isn't canon

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I hope Sakurai includes new Starfox conversations...

The inclusion of Peppy Hare in Orbital Gate ruined everything.

That’s probably only gonna happen if there’s a new Star Fox stage (every other stage that has the Star Fox characters talk on have yet to be messed with...other than taking stuff out of course)

 

[Deleted member]

Smash isn't canon

It is for R.O.B.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Do you honestly believe, that the FE fanbase actually likes the representation it gets in Smash?

Let's break it down.

Marth: A character that no one in the West could truly experience until 2008's Shadow Dragon. While the game has a neutral reception now, it was definitely on the weaker side of FE compared to the recent GBA games and Tellius games. Marth is admirable as a character, but overall he's pretty bland to many and the only nostalgia for him in the West comes from Smash/Melee.

Roy: For a long time considered the worst FE lord. Corrin set that bar pretty low but for a long time, Roy was the worst. His character really only comes out in deep supports (which are grindy as hell in the GBA games) so for the main story he's pretty dull. Casuals have this idea of Roy being a fiery hothead but in reality, he's a calculating tactician who keeps his head cool during everything. While admirable, it doesn't allow for him to better show that much emotion and he comes off as boring. Also, still Japan only, so no actual nostalgia for him aside from Smash/Melee.

Ike: One of the better reps, but that's only in hindsight. From the start, Ike was a relevancy character as Path of Radiance released in 2005 and Brawl started development in 2005. He has a unique moveset, but it grossly ignores even more unique things he could pull from like sword beams, axes, etc. Ike is stupid popular amongst casuals but that's mainly because of Brawl because the performance of his games is what set the franchise downhill to almost being canceled. (No marketing, releasing week of Super Mario Galaxy, etc.) People really appreciate the Tellius games now (see Path of Radiance's value on Ebay) but in the end, Ike was a relevancy character that had missed potential.

Robin: Now this is where the fun begins. Robin seems to have a pretty good rep in the Smash fanbase for being unique and from Awakening, but Robin is heavily contentious in the FE fanbase. He was the start of making overly self-insert avatar characters mainstream, and some see that as ruining some of the most important aspects of the franchise. (Story, characters, etc.) Another problem with Robin is shared with Lucina...

Lucina: Another Awakening rep. Up to Smash 4, there were 11 mainline games that weren't remakes, 13 games in total. Marth represents two games, Ike represents a game and a half (RIP Micaiah), and Roy represents 1 game. Robin was already representing Awakening, so that's about 5-6 completely unique games that could've been repped. Even if Lucina's slot could've only been an Echo: Celica from FE2 could've worked (sorry Opossum), Seliph from FE4 could've worked, Leif from FE5 could've worked, Eliwood from FE7 could've worked, and Eirika from FE8 could've worked. But no, while Lucina is technically a "Lord" she's ultimately a side character in Awakening (which was already repped) yet she was chosen over a lot of other options. (If anyone quotes me saying that Lucina is an Echo so she doesn't matter then only argue about 5 FE reps being too much.) This isn't even including Lucina's sword being shrunk in half to fit Marth's Falchion and her not canonically fighting like Chrom, so the character that is overrepping Awakening got misrepresented.

Corrin: Overall I bet the FE fanbase wishes Corrin wasn't an FE character. I don't need to go too much into it, but from Fate's story, characters, and how it is overly represented in everything FE after it, people really don't like Fates. Also, as the old saying goes: "Nobody hates FE more than FE fans". People hate Corrin on a surface level in the Smash fanbase but in-depth hate for Corrin goes around in the FE fanbase all the time.

Also, only one out of the 3 stages is from an actual location. From Awakening. No items. Lyn, the most popular FE character and one of the only highly popular characters who has genuine popularity (not just popular from Smash) is the only assist trophy.

Conclusion: All of the playable characters are either shoo-in first-protagonist Marth or convenient-relevancy-pick literally everyone else. The minuscule representation of potential is gross when it's a franchise that has axes, lances, bows, transforming stones, armors, pegasi, wyvern, horses, and multiple games to represent while the 3DS era takes up half the characters. Stages are a joke with the only stage that represents an actual location being on the 3DS and representing Awakening which got 2 playable characters. No items when there are vulneraries (healing pots), various stat power-ups which are rare for Smash items, etc. The only Assist Trophy for a series of hundreds of playable characters that "Assist" the protagonist on their quests is the most popular FE character who'd have a unique moveset for both FE and Smash.

I'm sorry, but don't hate the player, hate the game. The fanbase did nothing wrong and if it got what it would want and be satisfied with then the FE representation in Smash would be very different. Don't act like there are a bunch of people dancing around laughing as their somewhat niche little franchise seemingly destroys Smash Bros as a whole (at least that's what I can gather from how people react to it.)

(This isn't objective (nothing about this topic is) but it's what I can tell from the general fanbase and as a fan myself.)

Spoiler: Awakening Apology to avoid flame

To Awakening fans: In this, I might have hated on Awakening but that's not the case (I actually like the game), I'm just saying that while it was significant it's a majority of the only representation of FE in Smash while it has a ton of other things to pull from.

I think if the FE fanbase isn't satisfied with the representation the series has in Smash they're being a big unappreciative. I get that there are characters they'd like more for variety and representation's sake, but I don't think it's Corrin vs Hector, Lucina vs Eirika, etc, rather it's the characters we got or no one. I myself can be a bit frustrated with the effect that relevancy can have, but there has to be an acceptance that FE wouldn't have gotten irrelevant characters instead of the ones who were included with cross promotion in mind, even Pokémon finds itself in a similar situation where it can't and won't just pick and choose stars of old generations despite the untapped potential.

FE could honestly just have had Marth (the original), Ike (the fan favorite) and Robin (the revival) and it'd be fine, but it's gotten Roy, Lucina and Corrin on top of that, I think it's worth appreciating that it's gotten that much when it's not exactly the global phenomenon that other series with around the same number of characters are.

 

[vaanrose]

Given 's more than mixed reception and Sakurai saying himself there's too much FE characters, no, I wouldn't be that confident if I were you.

Besides, assuming by its name, Three Houses might be another entry divided in different versions, like 's game, thus it's gonna be redundant staple-wise.

I also suspect people here to really overestimate FE Heroes's influence on the character choices.

I normally don't bother quoting posts that are this old, but since you yourself quoted an old post and are missing one super obvious fact...

Three Houses is on the Switch. It's the first console Fire Emblem in over a decade. You're kidding yourself if you think it's not going to be the best selling entry in the franchise yet. I promise you, people are going to be actively asking for a character from it, something Fates and Corrin never had going for them.

My opinion has jack to do with "patterns," I'm basically the only person on this site who doesn't think we're getting a new Pokemon on the base roster. And I don't even like or play Fire Emblem, and I have little desire to play Three Houses.

It's a surefire hit from a popular franchise that Sakurai himself enjoys that will release at the perfect time to capitalize on with cross-game advertising DLC that people will actually want by the time it comes out.

 

[Roberk]

Slight correction, Robin wasn't the first avatar in FE, that title belongs to Kris, who is quite literally "Did you know Marth had this super cool friend he could always rely on that he loves more than his wife and is simply perfect? Did you know that they're *gasp* YOU?"

Technically it was Mark from FE7, but I mentioned that Robin made it mainstream. Mark, while the first, did nothing. Just the player's way to "see" the game world. Kris, while also before Robin, was only in FE12 which was Japan only. While Kris "started" the trend of an avatar impacting the quality of the story and its characters, Robin made it mainstream with Awakening. The notion (within the fanbase) of avatar characters being a detriment to the games starts mainly with Robin. Whether that's right or wrong is another topic, but within the fanbase itself most fingers would go to Robin due to Awakening's impact and being in a story made for an avatar character (while Kris was just an addition to the preexisting Mystery of the Emblem).

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Do you honestly believe, that the FE fanbase actually likes the representation it gets in Smash?

Let's break it down.

Marth: A character that no one in the West could truly experience until 2008's Shadow Dragon. While the game has a neutral reception now, it was definitely on the weaker side of FE compared to the recent GBA games and Tellius games. Marth is admirable as a character, but overall he's pretty bland to many and the only nostalgia for him in the West comes from Smash/Melee.

Roy: For a long time considered the worst FE lord. Corrin set that bar pretty low but for a long time, Roy was the worst. His character really only comes out in deep supports (which are grindy as hell in the GBA games) so for the main story he's pretty dull. Casuals have this idea of Roy being a fiery hothead but in reality, he's a calculating tactician who keeps his head cool during everything. While admirable, it doesn't allow for him to better show that much emotion and he comes off as boring. Also, still Japan only, so no actual nostalgia for him aside from Smash/Melee.

Ike: One of the better reps, but that's only in hindsight. From the start, Ike was a relevancy character as Path of Radiance released in 2005 and Brawl started development in 2005. He has a unique moveset, but it grossly ignores even more unique things he could pull from like sword beams, axes, etc. Ike is stupid popular amongst casuals but that's mainly because of Brawl because the performance of his games is what set the franchise downhill to almost being canceled. (No marketing, releasing week of Super Mario Galaxy, etc.) People really appreciate the Tellius games now (see Path of Radiance's value on Ebay) but in the end, Ike was a relevancy character that had missed potential.

Robin: Now this is where the fun begins. Robin seems to have a pretty good rep in the Smash fanbase for being unique and from Awakening, but Robin is heavily contentious in the FE fanbase. He was the start of making overly self-insert avatar characters mainstream, and some see that as ruining some of the most important aspects of the franchise. (Story, characters, etc.) Another problem with Robin is shared with Lucina...

Lucina: Another Awakening rep. Up to Smash 4, there were 11 mainline games that weren't remakes, 13 games in total. Marth represents two games, Ike represents a game and a half (RIP Micaiah), and Roy represents 1 game. Robin was already representing Awakening, so that's about 5-6 completely unique games that could've been repped. Even if Lucina's slot could've only been an Echo: Celica from FE2 could've worked (sorry Opossum), Seliph from FE4 could've worked, Leif from FE5 could've worked, Eliwood from FE7 could've worked, and Eirika from FE8 could've worked. But no, while Lucina is technically a "Lord" she's ultimately a side character in Awakening (which was already repped) yet she was chosen over a lot of other options. (If anyone quotes me saying that Lucina is an Echo so she doesn't matter then only argue about 5 FE reps being too much.) This isn't even including Lucina's sword being shrunk in half to fit Marth's Falchion and her not canonically fighting like Chrom, so the character that is overrepping Awakening got misrepresented.

Corrin: Overall I bet the FE fanbase wishes Corrin wasn't an FE character. I don't need to go too much into it, but from Fate's story, characters, and how it is overly represented in everything FE after it, people really don't like Fates. Also, as the old saying goes: "Nobody hates FE more than FE fans". People hate Corrin on a surface level in the Smash fanbase but in-depth hate for Corrin goes around in the FE fanbase all the time.

Also, only one out of the 3 stages is from an actual location. From Awakening. No items. Lyn, the most popular FE character and one of the only highly popular characters who has genuine popularity (not just popular from Smash) is the only assist trophy.

Conclusion: All of the playable characters are either shoo-in first-protagonist Marth or convenient-relevancy-pick literally everyone else. The minuscule representation of potential is gross when it's a franchise that has axes, lances, bows, transforming stones, armors, pegasi, wyvern, horses, and multiple games to represent while the 3DS era takes up half the characters. Stages are a joke with the only stage that represents an actual location being on the 3DS and representing Awakening which got 2 playable characters. No items when there are vulneraries (healing pots), various stat power-ups which are rare for Smash items, etc. The only Assist Trophy for a series of hundreds of playable characters that "Assist" the protagonist on their quests is the most popular FE character who'd have a unique moveset for both FE and Smash.

I'm sorry, but don't hate the player, hate the game. The fanbase did nothing wrong and if it got what it would want and be satisfied with then the FE representation in Smash would be very different. Don't act like there are a bunch of people dancing around laughing as their somewhat niche little franchise seemingly destroys Smash Bros as a whole (at least that's what I can gather from how people react to it.)

(This isn't objective (nothing about this topic is) but it's what I can tell from the general fanbase and as a fan myself.)

Spoiler: Awakening Apology to avoid flame

To Awakening fans: In this, I might have hated on Awakening but that's not the case (I actually like the game), I'm just saying that while it was significant it's a majority of the only representation of FE in Smash while it has a ton of other things to pull from.

Okay, let me see if I got this right; the overall representation for FE in Smash Bros. is so dreadful that the FE fanbase would just as much prefer if it didn't have much at all?

I can see how they feel about that. For other, much smaller in scope series, it's pretty simple to get who you ask for, you got your Ashleys, K. Rools, Toads and so forth, since the main and secondary casts of those are relatively compact and very memorable. However, with FE, the casts are immense, even the Famicom/Advance/Battalion Wars series has smaller ones, you wouldn't even know where to begin, so Nintendo takes the safest route and just have Sakurai include the singular main characters for promotion. That also happen to mostly just use swords, and not even representing the rest of the weapon tree. The stages don't even give off the impression that you eventually fight off freakin' dragons. Any chances of having anyone other than the main characters are always dashed, even after the franchise got saved by Awakening. Let's not get started on what most pre-FE7 games get, either.

The fanbase in Smash that gets the worst treatment is the one most observers don't realise it's even having bad luck.

 

[Opossum]

Slight correction, Robin wasn't the first avatar in FE, that title belongs to Kris, who is quite literally "Did you know Marth had this super cool friend he could always rely on that he loves more than his wife and is simply perfect? Did you know that they're *gasp* YOU?"

We...don't talk about Kris.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay sorry to bring this back up. I was away for a while but I can't just let this slide. I'll go through each point one by one.

With Pokemon Trainer, all three characters are tied to each other. If Charizard dies, that mean Squirtle will have one less stock. But at the end of the day, it is still the Pokemon that are the playable characters and it is why Pokemon Trainer has three numbers instead of one.

Pokemon Trainer is still the key factor among them regardless. This is why you have to go through Classic Mode 3 times to get each trophy. Only Pokemon Trainer will always get a trophy, but you'll get one per Pokemon based upon your final character when you beat Master Hand(and sometimes Crazy Hand). It's still clear who the focus overall is. Pokemon Trainer is the actual main character here. The other 3 are literally the moveset. That's the mechanic in the first place. It works just like the actual Pokemon games. It's the Pokemon that does the moves, but the Trainer that properly controls them.

But you don't control the Pikmin. You fling them at your enemies and smack people with them. They are more like tools than anything. The only one you directly control is Olimar.

The moveset is entirely focused around what the Pikmin are, though. That's the reason it exists. Solimar is not a "normal" thing and simply possible due to the fact that the moveset's mechanics allow it, as it matches with the regular game.

Even in his own game the story focuses around Olimar or Alph and his team. Not the Pikmin. The first game opens up on Olimar and the objective revolves around Olimar. If the Pikmin were the stars, the game would be told from their perspective as this weird spaceman guy lands on their planet.

Yet the game is called Pikmin. Saying they aren't the main stars is a little silly. Olimar is the main protagonist. They're Co-Stars. Not unlike the Smash moveset itself.

You act like all Olimar does in Smash is stand around and summon Pikmin while the player attacks people as the Pikmin. No! You control Olimar, and you jump, dodge, shield and attack as Olimar. You are Olimar! You're Pikmin are your weapons. And you can even attack without them.

And as of Smash 4, it's impossible to play without the Pikmin thanks to the Up B. They're still the focus and the actual mechanic of the moveset. Olimar would not even exist as a playable character without the Pikmin being the focus of how it works. The point is you're supposed to use the Pikmin to fight, not jab attacks without him. That's the intended method. Again, due to how the moveset works, Solimar became possible. It's a consequence of the moveset mechanic(a Captain commanding the important Pikmin to fight), not some focus. And Solimar was removed, again, as of Smash 4. You also are attacking just as much with the Pikmin as you were with Olimar. To pretend they're not the focus of the moveset despite being the clear point of the moveset in itself(never mind being integral to the mechanic alone) is just looking at it... in the way it was clearly not intended. Also, for the record, you can't do all of Olimar's moveset without the Pikmin. Many Smash Attacks, aerials, and even his Up B are impossible without them(in two different ways in Smash. You can't do his Up B in Brawl without them because there's no Pikmin to use as a Tether. In 4, you can't do it without them because Up B is a Winged Pikmin). Also, considering the fact that his special moves directly revolve around the Pikmin, well...

Besides that, they aren't tools anyway. They're living beings and they emphasize this in Smash alone. To drive it home further, all of Olimar's renders include the Pikmin. As in his Smash renders. You know, the character portrait, etc? Even the amiibo have the Pikmin in. Even moreso, Pikmin have their own amiibo, yet Olimar clearly does not have a unique one without the Pikmin. It's so blatant they're a key part of the moveset that it's useless to deny this fact.

https://www.smashbros.com/wii/en_us/characters/pikmin.html In fact, this is his character page. Or should I say, their character page. In fact, the character in Brawl is called "Pikmin & Olimar". This is a Smash 4 oddity that he's somehow not key to the Pikmin, and it's a translation thing only. It's very clear the Pikmin are key to it.

The Legend of Zelda has "Zelda" in the title therefor Link is not the main character.

Zelda co-stars with Link anyway. As does Ganon. They're all main characters. There can be more than one. Being the playable character isn't the same thing as being the main character itself, which is the focus of the story. In this case, the focus is clearly on Link, but still also on Zelda and Ganon. In fact, the main characters are almost always variations of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, or characters that have similarities to their roles(I.E. Vaati and Marin. Or Skull Kid. Etc.)

Who care about how things work in their home games? Smash certainly doesn't. Dr. Mario is literally Mario in a doctors outfit. In Melee he heavier and slower but more powerful than Mario. Is there an home game reason for it? When you play Dr. Mario on the NES does it explain that Dr. Mario is in fact stronger thanregular Mario? No of course not. He was just an easy addition for the sake of an easy addition. And these echos are easy additions for the sake of padding out the roster. Nothing more nothing less. I can't believe you think home game accuracy matters in Smash. SMASH of all games! They could just make Alph a lighter and faster Olimar and people would just accept it just like they accepted Dr. Mario being a slower stronger Mario for no good reason.

Except the part where Dr. Mario was a last second clone and the only key difference was something unique to him, Megavitamins. In addition, he also unique music to add and was very very easy to implement. Besides that, unlike Olimar, Dr. Mario was focused far more on the Doc itself than simply the Megavitamins(his only unique point). The Viruses are the Co-Stars in it, but also don't show up beyond small cameos. Which makes sense, cause he's a clone. And the fact Pikmin & Olimar are based upon how they play in the home games. So yes, it does matter.

I'll once again point out Dr. Mario but also mention Dark Pit who plays exactly like Pit in his games. Finally I'll bring up how all the Koopalings are costumes even though it makes no sense for them to be. Seriously, I'm sorry, but your arguments are really bad given the nature of the Smash series.

Dark Pit has unique abilities as an option(Alph didn't), including the Dark Pit staff, and the inability to use the Three Sacred Treasures, the main reason he was cited by Sakurai himself to actually be separated. Because he couldn't do that move. Alph can do everything Olimar can do without any issues(I do agree using the same ship is silly, though). The only real difference is what the Pikmin, who again, are canonically a huge focus of the game(to deny this is ridiculous) itself as well as Olimar's story, can do. Now that the Pikmin have to be used in Smash no matter what(which is logical, since that was the point of the moveset in the first place), the only real way to separate the two is to have new Pikmin to focus on. This is the most logical way to do it because it'll bring something to the table. Besides that, it's clear Sakurai is trying to not add a huge amount of newcomers. Even with Echoes, at least the characters are severely popular and easy to do, but also are notable enough on their own merits and have some points to consider. Daisy got in because she, like Waluigi were severely popular picks, but also because she was easy to make. Daisy also is the 100% focus of her character. She doesn't co-star with specific characters as a focus of her own game(of which at best, that's literally one game, which she Co-Stars with Mario... who is already playable). Overall, other Echoes aren't just different characters with potential different abilities, they were also easy to make at the same time while bringing something different to some degree. Dark Pit has a new Final Smash. Daisy has new aesthetics. Lucina has no tipper, which while it doesn't change much, does make a difference. What does Alph have that really separates him from every other Captain in the first place? What key and unique ability does he have even in his home series that should justify it? Beyond the Pikmin, who again, and always have and will be, the focus of the moveset, he's got nada. No reason to do so. Literally one Pikmin exists and it requires a lot to make it feel unique(because it's not a simple model change but actually a fairly different model) but still work. At this point, if they really wanted the Rock Pikmin in, it could've just been an alt for the Purple Pikmin alone, but only under Alph's costumes. Of course, that's harder to implement, hence they don't exist in the moveset. So they kept him an alt because he's identical to Olimar entirely in his own game(bar having a slightly different size, but the proportions are the same)... just like the other Captains. This is the same reason why Pokemon Trainer has alts that not just reference other Trainers(besides that, PT does not have a specific name, being intentionally generic), but also now a female alt. He's a bit different from Olimar/Alph in that he's not directly playable, but still is key to the moveset's overall mechanic(Pokemon Change being the key mechanic, of course). Pikmin and the Captain are both key parts of the moveset. It's just that the Pikmin overall get the bigger focus due to how the moveset was designed. Besides the fact they always shared the actual slot name(FYI, it's still Pikmin & Olimar on the Smash 4 Japanese and Smash Ultimate Japanese website. There's a reason for that). Speaking of that... https://www.smashbros.com/wiiu-3ds/us/characters/pikmin.html Look at the url name for even the US website. It's kind of obvious how important they are. Sakurai makes it verrrrrry clear. It's only Smash Ultimate's that ignores these key urls and just says a number, but that's due to the new organizational design. Nothing else.

The Koopalings are costumes because it would be impossible to make 8 unique movesets in that given time. The actual moveset is the Koopa Clown Car itself. The Koopalings work fine as costumes simply because they all have shared the exact same role as Bowser Jr., being Bowser's children and pretty much were bosses for Mario and Co. to battle. In fact, the only reason they are alts is because they were easy to make work due to the Koopa Clown Car being the moveset, so throwing them in took little work. It's in fact the same way Pikmin & Captain(which is a pretty accurate name) are done. Besides that, the alts are more or less deemed unimportant and just treated as extras anyway. That's why very few of them got amiibo.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I hope Sakurai includes new Starfox conversations...

The inclusion of Peppy Hare in Orbital Gate ruined everything.

I still remember how terrible the voice acting was for the Orbital Gate Assault conversations. But I guess Nintendo couldn't get the Brawl voice actors to voice the Star Fox team again.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm calling it now, we're gonna get 1 more newcomer (Most likely Simon) & nothing else.

That's... pretty low. I mean, I'm lowballing here too, and while I wouldn't be surprised by that, they need system seller characters. That said, my guesstimate is still at 3-10 (depends on how many lol echo's)

also, I know people are getting worried because no new information, but they blew a ton of loads at once at E3. There isn't really too much more of the game to reveal, probably (though, they are building off of Smash 4, people have to keep that in mind) and they have another few months to go. Us Kirby fans had it way worse with waiting for Wave 2 information - we were practically strung for 3-4 months.

so, august or september we'll probably get a direct. We have to have a direct before the end of September anyways because of Nintendo's online service. Feel free to save this post and quote me if I'm dead wrong.

(btw, nice pop'n'music avatar)

Well, the villains popular in Japan are already in. In the Melee poll, four of the five top votes were for "antagonists": Bowser, Dedede, Wario, and Ganondorf. And they like K. Rool. They're just less interested in Metroid overall. Fwiw they are (or were) more interested in F-Zero and Mother villains than us. They also care more about Magolor than we do.

How many remaining villains do we as westerners even clamour loudly for? K. Rool... and... Dark Samus? And these days it's mostly because of the echo.

(honestly one of the things I missed from Smash 4 spec are your posts, so it's nice to see you around)

Morally grey characters or pure villains? If we're talking the latter, the board's been mostly wiped clean, but the latter? I could think of a few more choices

Of the morally grey/villains we have,
-Bowser
-Ganondorf
-Mewtwo
-Meta Knight
-Dark Pit
-Wario
-King Dedede
-Wolf
-Bowser Jr.
-Ridley
-Duck Hunt

Which definitely doesn't outshine the number of protagonists (probably above 30, at least) and is only close to the number of Third-Parties (7) but hey, 10 is pretty good.

Ones that are actually feasible, (I'm also counting 'easy to program' on this list - spoilered b/c length)

Spoiler

-King K. Rool (DK)
-Just about anything from Zelda/Toon Ganondorf (Zelda - I know Zelda constantly goes for different characters, but hitting one more nail here wouldn't hurt)
-Dark Samus (Metroid)
-Boshi (Yoshi, Zinith will probs enjoy this) - I just put this here because I see this as an easy-to-add Echo, but there's other Yoshi villains you could go with too. Either way, probably not.
-Marx (Kirby)
-Magolor (Kirby)
-Daroach (Kirby - More of a good guy than most of these mentions but still some morally grey)
-Dark Meta Knight Or Another Meta Knight Variation (Kirby - lol echo. okay, yeah, there's a lot of Kirby here)
-Another member of team Star Wolf (For the record: I more just put this here because of popularity and b/c you could literally just steal moves; I don't even think it's a good idea)
-Masked Man (Mother - At least an easy to program idea + had traction)
-Gigue (Mother - Mewtwo echo; not that I think it'll happen lol)
-Black Shadow (F-Zero)
-Louie (Pikmin - easy echo or alt costume)
-Various Kid Icarus villains (If we want to just go for any - easily echoable)
-DJ Octavio or the Octolings (prolly just the octolings if any - lol easy DLC echo.)
-Felix in some way as an alt or so of Isaac (LOL THAT RELIES ON ISAAC ACTUALLY BEING IN ((( )
-Shadow (Sonic has been around more than every other third-party...)
-Alucard (simon belmont echo i guess? Though Simon hasn't even been confirmed

Before hitting third-parties and my lulzy golden sun addition, that's about 15. If we remove the lol echoes, that cuts it to about half (and no way are we getting an absurd amount of Kirby newcomers). I probably forgot one.

Out of these, I think we'll see three at most and it'll probably be the most probable choices (Louie (alt costume - I was already shocked last time by that exclusion), K. Rool, Dark Samus) - That would make, in the grand scheme of things, the roster about 1/6th of that nice morally grey hit. Given the other elements that Smash has to cover (The RPG new characters, new franchises, other hype third-parties, other supporting characters, etc), I don't think there's a lack of villains. Honestly, I think the whole lack of villains thing was cleaned up in Brawl, and Smash 4 in general lacked adding supporting characters (as I constantly go on about)

tl;dr: I agree, but I also think there's a few choices people forget; mostly due to echoes. It depends if we're talking villains or morally grey though - Nintendo doesn't really have too much of the former that would be justifiable (Meta Knight and King D3 are basically good guys now, Wario doesn't really do jack asides from Steal, Bowser still goes karting with Mario and teams up with him in the RPG's) - If we're talking morally grey supporting characters, I'm all about that and I think there's a few choices left before completely scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Spoiler

This whole post was honestly just a big excuse for me to nerd out about Nintendo.