Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

I completely disagree.

I mean. . .personality is/was literally one of Sakurai's criteria for character choices.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

This is, of course, from 9 years ago. But I don't think he have any evidence that his opinion has changed that wouldn't be speculation.

( I know R.O.B is owned and originated by Nintendo )
You two have to consider this: does R.O.B have any personality? I mean he only cares about winning. That's it. ( )
Personally I think personality is not a priority when it comes to choosing a character, but is still some kind of mini factor. The only reason I could see personality being important is for a possible Subspace or something. Rob may of had slight personality during Subspace, but that is just it. I just think for a character to be in Smash it depends on where their games originate from and what gaming platform is on ( It does not have to be a Nintendo console ), and the directors of Smash Brothers' opinions on the character.

Mind you, it doesn't mean they have to be vibrant, just actually have a personality. Flat characters still have one. Ryu, for instance, is extremely flat with very little personality to begin with. He's in there. Mario and Link are hardly vibrant characters either(Toon Link is the first one to show any real personality in an official Nintendo game, while the rest only did so via spin-offs Comics/TV Shows/etc.)

So he's not looking for some big thing, just a little bit.

Ryu and Mega Man are in Smash though

Also, personality or lack thereof is an imaginary parameter for 3rd parties.

These three quotes are good examples on why personality is not a really big subject. These quotes prove my point.

 

[N3ON]

I completely disagree.

Go right ahead.

3rd parties, unlike most of the other characters, have had the luxury of Sakurai largely illuminating exactly why they were added. Never has personality been a reason provided, even despite several (but not all) third-parties having notable personalities. He's had many a chance.

Moreover, Sakurai has touched on stipulations in including third-parties and what he values when looking at potential guests. Demand, legacy, importance, pedigree, ties to development... these are recurring themes. Personality has yet to be touched on as any impetus to inclusion or exclusion. You're using it as your own qualification, just as you're looking at whether Doomslayer is "interesting" through your sole subjective lens.

Because otherwise, you really only have one contradictory point Sakurai made when referring to characters in general, which you've already repudiated yourself through defending Nintendo's avatar characters. Even in your initial post you qualified your deduction with "I think". And you're free to think it, but it's not actually based in precedent, statement, or tangible examples... so how much does it count for?

Personality matters in how to represent the character faithfully, sure, but in inclusion? We've had enough blank canvases and explicit ulterior reasons to believe personality only comes into play after a point.

I mean. . .personality is/was literally one of Sakurai's criteria for character choices.

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

This is, of course, from 9 years ago. But I don't think he have any evidence that his opinion has changed that wouldn't be speculation.

That's a non-qualifier considering how many Nintendo characters of questionable personality its applied to. He also said the character must present something only they can do, and yet we still wind up with three incredibly derivative clones. Easy additions or not, if they truly clashed with his principles, they would've been left as alts.

The only one that actually seems consistent is number three, which makes sense, as it's the only one that could actually break the game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's a non-qualifier considering how many Nintendo characters of questionable personality its applied to. He also said the character must present something only they can do, and yet we still wind up with three incredibly derivative clones. Easy additions or not, if they truly clashed with his principles, they would've been left as alts.

The only one that actually seems consistent is number three, which makes sense, as it's the only one that could actually break the game.

It's more they're guidelines, not hard rules. That's why many get broken in certain situations. Otherwise we couldn't have Bayonetta, who does not fit the "iconic" rule he made. Exceptions happen.

It doesn't mean he never looks for them, it just means they're not the be-end all. So yeah, someone with little personality can still get in if they interest Sakurai and his team. A character who isn't a clone, on the other hand, would clearly need something unique to them at this point. And that's fair. He wants to spice up the roster with various playstyles too. Hence his gimmick approach in Smash 4.

 

[PsychoJosh]

You two have to consider this: does R.O.B have any personality? I mean he only cares about winning. That's it. ( )

To which I say for the third time: R.O.B. belongs to Nintendo. Nintendo's proprietary franchises have more lenient guidelines.

Megaman and Ryu have personalities too, they're very subdued ones, but they're there nonetheless.

It's more they're guidelines, not hard rules. That's why many get broken in certain situations. Otherwise we couldn't have Bayonetta, who does not fit the "iconic" rule he made. Exceptions happen..

Bayonetta isn't iconic?

You're out of your mind if you think that, sorry. Bayonetta is widely recognized and easily distinguishable from all other game characters - where else have you seen a fashionable magic-wielding diva who fights with guns on her hands AND feet? She is very much an icon, and a supremely unique design, which is why she won the ballot. She endures worldwide popularity, and she wasn't at all an exception.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think by personality, it meant the character isn't just an emotionless void.

Doomguy and Dragonborn can easily be given stuff.

Especially Doomguy. He has canon actions and traits.

 

[Deleted member]

To which I say for the third time: R.O.B. belongs to Nintendo. Nintendo's proprietary franchises have more lenient guidelines.

That is not what I mean. I know Rob is from Nintendo. What I mean is he has literally no personality outside of Smash. He is programmed to complete something or win. Even Ryu and Mega Man have slightly more personality then R.O.B, and they have like almost none.

 

[PsychoJosh]

That is not what I mean. I know Rob is from Nintendo. What I mean is he has literally no personality outside of Smash. He is programmed to complete something or win.

Yes, but the argument is about third party characters needing to be iconic and having personalities. Nintendo has free reign over their own properties and can put in anyone they like from their own franchises. Not the case with third parties.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, but the argument is about third party characters needing to be iconic and having personalities. Nintendo has free reign over their own properties and can put in anyone they like from their own franchises. Not the case with third parties.

I was just bringing up how personality overall in any Smash character is not a major thing for a character to get in.

Does anyone have an interesting third party character move set for me to see? I would like to look at the creative move sets made by users here or somewhere else.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I was just bringing up how personality overall in any Smash character is not a major thing for a character to get in.

It is a major thing to consider if it's a third party. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[N3ON]

Bayonetta isn't iconic?

You're out of your mind if you think that, sorry. Bayonetta is widely recognized and easily distinguishable from all other game characters - where else have you seen a fashionable magic-wielding diva who fights with guns on her hands AND feet? She is very much an icon, and a supremely unique design, which is why she won the ballot. She endures worldwide popularity, and she wasn't at all an exception.

You think we would've gotten Bayo without the ballot?

You think we would've gotten Bayo if her game was multiplat?

You think we would've gotten Bayo if her history was devoid of Nintendo influence?

If she was truly a gaming icon, there'd be the distinct plausibility.

None of the other existing third parties (or for that matter even the popular candidates) have had a crutch as large as Nintendo funding, owning, and promoting a title in your series for them to start being seriously considered.

Sure her design is recognizable, but no, when your bar rests around the likes of Sonic, Snake, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, and Cloud, she's not an icon. There is a huge precipice between them and her tier.

Yes, but the argument is about third party characters needing to be iconic and having personalities. Nintendo has free reign over their own properties and can put in anyone they like from their own franchises. Not the case with third parties.

But that line in the sand is literally just something you made up. If you want to work off Sakurai's statements, that would include Nintendo characters. But even that has been broken before.

It's more they're guidelines, not hard rules.

lol I wrote the same thing in my post but then got rid of it.

No, the points aren't worthless, but if you don't adhere to them (especially #1&2) it's not like you're sol.

 

[PsychoJosh]

You think we would've gotten Bayo without the ballot?

You think we would've gotten Bayo if her game was multiplat?

You think we would've gotten Bayo if her history was devoid of Nintendo influence?

If she was truly a gaming icon, there'd be the distinct plausibility.

None of the other existing third parties (or for that matter even the popular candidates) have had a crutch as large as Nintendo funding, owning, and promoting a title in your series for them to start being seriously considered.

Sure her design is recognizable, but no, when your bar rests around the likes of Sonic, Snake, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu, and Cloud, she's not an icon. There is a huge precipice between them and her tier.

Except, Bayonetta's first game WAS multiplat, in fact a Nintendo system was the only one her first game DIDN'T appear on for a time.

Nintendo came in and claimed the sequel for Wii U because they were in desperate need of more M-rated titles. That fact alone contradicts your whole point about them not regarding her and her franchise as iconic and notable, otherwise they wouldn't even have considered it.

There is also the fact that there were other top 5 ballot choices in North America that never had a chance because they weren't "realizable", which helped push her to the top. It helped that they had a history with her, but I'm sure she was already in the back of their minds for Smash inclusion.

But that line in the sand is literally just something you made up. If you want to work off Sakurai's statements, that would include Nintendo characters. But even that has been broken before.

I never said it wasn't my own interpretation of things. But I am truly convinced that this is how they see it as well.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Bayonetta isn't iconic?

You're out of your mind if you think that, sorry. Bayonetta is widely recognized and easily distinguishable from all other game characters - where else have you seen a fashionable magic-wielding diva who fights with guns on her hands AND feet? She is very much an icon, and a supremely unique design, which is why she won the ballot. She endures worldwide popularity, and she wasn't at all an exception.

In what way are you referring to her being iconic? Because Bayonetta is not a household name. You could say how great Bayonetta is to the majority of the gaming community and they would say 'who?'. She no where near reaches Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, or Pac-Man in recognition she easily falls behind Cloud, Ryu, and Snake as well. Hell, Dante, her predecessor is FAR more popular than she is.

That's not to undermine her design or her games, which are bloody incredible, or even her appearance in Smash. The reason she was chosen wasn't because of her icon status. She didn't dramatically change games nor did she ignite and become the face of a genre. She was chosen because of circumstance. Popularity wasn't the only role that played in the ballot obviously. Sakurai looked for a character who would be most beneficial all the way around from gameplay, to marketing, to promotability, to ease of aquiring, and yes popularity. It wasn't an accident that Bayonetta 2 got a standalone rerelease within the same time frame. Bayonetta is incredibly popular within the Nintendo fanbase now, which is why the next one being absent from a Nintendo console sounds unfeesable at this point. But Nintendo is not the only console maker out there and back in 2015-16 their fanbase was probably more niche than it has ever been meaning that the popularity of Bayonetta was easy to see when there were major sites giving Game of the Year to a niche, Nintendo-Exclusive, action title.

Bayonetta isn't quite iconic but she is certainly popular within the Nintendo niche. That's for damn sure.

 

[NintenRob]

With a recent announcement, I want to share a list of Smash franchises that have and haven't had a new game since the release of Smash Wii U.

Mario: Mario always has new games, Most notable is Mario Odyssey.
Zelda: Breath of the Wild is most notable, but there is also Triforce heroes. Hyrule Warriors also released just before Smash Wii U but didn't get any content.
Pokemon: ORAS, SM, USUM and Switch game
Kirby: Planet Robobot and Star Allies. Also a bunch of smaller games.
Metroid: Samus Returns and Metroid Prime 4. Prime 4 especially garnered a lot of hype
Star Fox: a revival of sorts with Star Fox 0, created by Miyamoto
Yoshi: technically Yoshi's Woolly World, but more importantly is Yoshi on Switch
Fire Emblem: Fire Emblem Echoes, Heroes, Warriors and an upcoming Switch game
Pikmin: Hey Pikmin came out for 3DS and Pikmin 4 is in the works..... Probably
Sonic: Sonic got Mania and Forces this year. Mania was well received by all
Animal Crossing: Animal Crossing had Happy Home design on 3DS and recently got a game on the mobile
Xenoblade Chronicles: X on Wii U and recently 2 on Switch.
Mega Man: Mega Man 11 was just announced for all systems. And all past Mega Man and Mega Man X games are coming to Switch
Pac-Man: Pac-Man ghostly adventure 2 released between the two Smash games. And 2016 had Pac-Man 256. He's also had a bunch of other mobile exclusive stuff
Street Fighter: Street Fighter 5 released last year on PlayStation 4. And Ultra Street Fighter 2 on Switch
Final Fantasy: Final Fantasy 15 was last year. Final Fantasy 7 (the only one Smash cares about) still has its remake in the works
Metal Gear: phantom pain was after Smash Wii U right? Not that it matters much.

Now Smash franchises that don't have anything

Donkey Kong: the biggest franchise on this list, despite that Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong still have remained relevant in the Mario spinoffs and Mario Odyssey having a level pay homage to the franchise (most notably the arcade game).Tropical Freeze also released really close to Smash Wii U
F-Zero: sigh
Earthbound: Franchise is finished with its story, although Earthbound beginnings was released worldwide for the first time in 2015
Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Robot, Duck Hunt: All Retro franchises, expected not to have new games
Kid Icarus: before uprising, it was also a retro franchise. It's future is unknown
Wario: Last game was Game & Wario, but he has stayed relevant in Mario games.
Wii Fit: um. Wii brand is over now. Not sure where this leaves Wii Fit Trainer
Punch Out: like Kid Icarus, was a retro franchise until it returned with the Wii game.
Bayonetta: unless you count that joke 8-bit game, but there has been little teases.

New games 16 (17 if you count Metal Gear)

No games 8 (12 if you count retro franchises)


Those 16 is why I want a new game instead of a port.

 

[N3ON]

Except, Bayonetta's first game WAS multiplat, in fact a Nintendo system was the only one her first game DIDN'T appear on for a time.

...right... and during that tenure, no one was clamouring for her to be included in Smash.

But you didn't answer any of my questions. Do you think if she had maintained a multiplat release (even if that had extended to Nintendo platforms), with no influence from Nintendo (and therefore without the bridge their support built) she would've been included in Smash? Because I don't. Yet all the other included third-parties would and have been able to.

Nintendo came in and claimed the sequel for Wii U because they were in desperate need of more M-rated titles. That fact alone contradicts your whole point about them not regarding her and her franchise as iconic and notable, otherwise they wouldn't even have considered it.

They also claimed Devil's Third. I suppose Ivan is iconic as well. Either that or the metric for seeing potential success isn't the same as believing a series to be iconic.

I think it's more telling the rest of the industry was content to let Bayonetta fall by the wayside, including her own publisher.

There is also the fact that there were other top 5 ballot choices in North America that never had a chance because they weren't "realizable", which helped push her to the top. It helped that they had a history with her, but I'm sure she was already in the back of their minds for Smash inclusion.

This is just presumption we've absolutely no proof of, so it doesn't really function to bolster your argument...

But yeah, true enough, if one of the other, more popular characters had proven realizable, we wouldn't have gotten Bayo... though I'm not sure that helps your case for her pedigree.

I never said it wasn't my own interpretation of things. But I am truly convinced that this is how they see it as well.

Then why hasn't Sakurai mentioned it even once when explaining why any given third-party was included? Or in statements about third-parties generally.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I’m just curious how Smash 4 will affect how people’s perception on Smash 5 content. I’m sure you would of been labeled a heretic if you mentioned that we would see Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta in playable form back in late 2013. Likewise, various alternate outfits and such would be just labeled “wishful thinking”. And having so many FE and Mario newcomers would be “overdoing in” in regards to speculation rosters.

It’s really interesting to see where Smash is taken in the nextbreiteration and I’m excited to see what conventions it smashes. Will we see even more 3rd Party characters? Alternate costumes for all characters? Maybe even Ridley will get his shot once and for all.

Anyways, with that aside, it’s really fun to go back to the ol’ Smash Bros. Website and to go through it again. Even now the screenshots look great.

 

[Ghirahilda]

Our next 3rd party character will be Classic Sonic!

Jokes asides, I would love Tails to show up

 

[Deleted member]

Then explain how Sakurai put Corrin in Sm4sh.

ftfy

But in all seriousness, like Uni said, Robin has as much personality as every other Fire Emblem character, with the only difference being that they're customizable.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

N3ON said this already, but it's REALLY important. Bayonetta 2 only happened because Nintendo came in. Sega didn't care about the brand so Platinum had to elsewhere for funding. Microsoft said they weren't interested and Sony said the same thing. Nintendo had to get over there and say "Hey, we're interested and want this" despite not being asked. Would an iconic character need such a miracle in order to get a new game, that being the only other game she currently has under her belt? Smash boosted Bayonetta's popularity too, to the point people complained that Bayonetta 2 wasn't anywhere to be found in stores.

 

[Holychicken]

Wouldn't be too much of a shock to see a Tekken rep like Jin/Kaz/Heihachi. Although I'd rather see Yoshimitsu because of his moveset and cartoonish personality, but i think most (if not all) of his skins would be considered to look too scary for the game without a reskin.

If I had to put my money on some new characters I'd say Dixie, Tails, Sylux, Heihachi, and Dovahkiin for my wild card.

 

[UserKev]

This is wishful thinking but, I'd probably choose Spyro. Only if its a call back to Year of The Dragon, Spyro 3 though. Spike's Arena would be a great stage and also Spike himself would be a killer hazard, or boss.

 

[Deleted member]

I’m just curious how Smash 4 will affect how people’s perception on Smash 5 content. I’m sure you would of been labeled a heretic if you mentioned that we would see Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta in playable form back in late 2013. Likewise, various alternate outfits and such would be just labeled “wishful thinking”. And having so many FE and Mario newcomers would be “overdoing in” in regards to speculation rosters.

It’s really interesting to see where Smash is taken in the nextbreiteration and I’m excited to see what conventions it smashes. Will we see even more 3rd Party characters? Alternate costumes for all characters? Maybe even Ridley will get his shot once and for all.

Anyways, with that aside, it’s really fun to go back to the ol’ Smash Bros. Website and to go through it again. Even now the screenshots look great.

Accurate post. It is amazing how far Smash Brothers Wii U went and it has been more than three years now. Now Mario, Sonic, Pac - Man, Cloud, Bayonetta, Ryu, Megaman, and Link can all duel it out now. I hope we get more third party characters in the future - and we need a new Sonic character ( Tails or Knuckles ) and a new Pokemon character ( I am hoping for Marshadow ). It would be cool if the total character count in Smash Five would exceed sixty.But the three things that would be really good for me is if Smash Brothers Five was on Steam ( Though I doubt that - Nintendo likes to keep their games only on their console. ), They have a feature where you can set the style either Melee or that style ( though that would take a really long time to make I am estimating ), and they have an online Ranking system. Also the screenshots are perfect on the Smash Brothers website.

 

[Deleted member]

@Zebei so how exactly do we start discussing rosters here?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

we need a new Sonic character ( Tails or Knuckles )

That will only happen if both Sega and Sakurai agree on it. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen. That's how third parties work.

a new Pokemon character ( I am hoping for Marshadow )

A Pokemon character will definitely happen. But I don't think it's gonna be Marshadow. Not with competition like Lycanroc, Decidueye and Incineroar.
Phew, wrote the fire starter's name right this time.

It would be cool if the total character count in Smash Five would exceed sixty.

It would be cool for us, the players, but for the dev team, it would be hell. It would mean balancing everyone and having a decent amount of newcomers to counteract the cuts (because there will likely be cuts). Not to mention balancing everything. They did a great job with 4 for the most part, but there's still stuff that isn't quite as balanced, like Bayo, Cloud and, for the sucky end of the spectrum, Jigglypuff.

I'd be happy with a smaller cast if it meant a greater balance and more rest for the dev. If they can pull off a larger cast, that'd be fine too. Basically, I don't mind either way.

if Smash Brothers Five was on Steam ( Though I doubt that - Nintendo likes to keep their games only on their console. )

Asking for Smash on Steam (or any Nintendo franchise on any console that isn't theirs) is basically like asking for a Whopper at McDonald's. It's never going to happen because it would mean selling out to a business rival. It's not a matter of "Nintendo likes doing that", it's Business 101.

And before you bring Minecraft as an example, it's a very exceptional case, as it was already on a Sony console before Microsoft bought Mojang. Nintendo likely got it because it was already on every modern console but the Wii U and 3DS (Switch didn't exist at the time), so Microsoft probably just said "**** it" and let them have Minecraft on their consoles.

They have a feature where you can set the style either Melee or that style ( though that would take a really long time to make I am estimating )

That won't happen. Not because they don't like Melee, but because it would mean changing the entire game.

They'd have to alter a ton of data for a ton of characters, making it hell to properly do right. Especially with how many characters could end up in it.

The result would be an unbalanced mess, which would technically help make it similar to Melee (come at me, Melee fans ), but utimately, it's way too much effort just for what would basically be a switch.

and they have an online Ranking system

That... I actually don't know. Could go either way.

Would be way better than this "Global Smash Power" stuff for sure though.

Also the screenshots are perfect on the Smash Brothers website.

Even Luigi's nose?

 

[Deleted member]

That will only happen if both Sega and Sakurai agree on it. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen. That's how third parties work.


A Pokemon character will definitely happen. But I don't think it's gonna be Marshadow. Not with competition like Lycanroc, Decidueye and Incineroar.
Phew, wrote the fire starter's name right this time.


It would be cool for us, the players, but for the dev team, it would be hell. It would mean balancing everyone and having a decent amount of newcomers to counteract the cuts (because there will likely be cuts). Not to mention balancing everything. They did a great job with 4 for the most part, but there's still stuff that isn't quite as balanced, like Bayo, Cloud and, for the sucky end of the spectrum, Jigglypuff.

I'd be happy with a smaller cast if it meant a greater balance and more rest for the dev. If they can pull off a larger cast, that'd be fine too. Basically, I don't mind either way.


Asking for Smash on Steam (or any Nintendo franchise on any console that isn't theirs) is basically like asking for a Whopper at McDonald's. It's never going to happen because it would mean selling out to a business rival. It's not a matter of "Nintendo likes doing that", it's Business 101.

And before you bring Minecraft as an example, it's a very exceptional case, as it was already on a Sony console before Microsoft bought Mojang. Nintendo likely got it because it was already on every modern console but the Wii U and 3DS (Switch didn't exist at the time), so Microsoft probably just said "**** it" and let them have Minecraft on their consoles.


That won't happen. Not because they don't like Melee, but because it would mean changing the entire game.

They'd have to alter a ton of data for a ton of characters, making it hell to properly do right. Especially with how many characters could end up in it.

The result would be an unbalanced mess, which would technically help make it similar to Melee (come at me, Melee fans ), but utimately, it's way too much effort just for what would basically be a switch.


That... I actually don't know. Could go either way.

Would be way better than this "Global Smash Power" stuff for sure though.


Even Luigi's nose?

...and here I thought Manly was the party pooper of this thread...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

...and here I thought Manly was the party pooper of this thread...

In all fairness, I don't make posts like that very often.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That will only happen if both Sega and Sakurai agree on it. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen. That's how third parties work.

And Nintendo. Remember, all companies need to want them. Sakurai, the 3rd party, and Nintendo, as it's still their game and system.

 

[Zerp]

It would be cool for us, the players, but for the dev team, it would be hell. It would mean balancing everyone and having a decent amount of newcomers to counteract the cuts (because there will likely be cuts). Not to mention balancing everything. They did a great job with 4 for the most part, but there's still stuff that isn't quite as balanced, like Bayo, Cloud and, for the sucky end of the spectrum, Jigglypuff.

I'd be happy with a smaller cast if it meant a greater balance and more rest for the dev. If they can pull off a larger cast, that'd be fine too. Basically, I don't mind either way.

It wouldn't necessarily mean that though, it's possible Smash 4's balance team just kind of sucks (I mean, they nerfed Dedede during the patches on multiple occasions). If they were really good at it you wouldn't see an massive divide between the results of an fan game and a official one in favor of the fan game, Project M's balancing is superior looking at results, tiers still exist like they'll always do but there is far more diversity in the results. What does that tell us? I think it's not that the roster's too big to balance properly, it's more like Nintendo's team can't balance things well, a team with far less resources outdid them, imagine if PM's team was official and had more resources, they'd be able to handle even bigger rosters, right? If Smash's team was like them and actually got good at balancing, there shouldn't be any big problems.

Spoiler: Smash 4 Weighted Results vs Project M Weighted Results

Source: https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...ter-diversity-between-the-5-main-smash-games/
Smash 4's results are from patch 1.1.6 and 1.1.7, Project M is all-time.

Bottom 5 in Smash 4:

• Jigglypuff (5 points.)
• Zelda (5 points.)
• Ganondorf (4 points.)
• Dr. Mario (3.5 points.)
• Mii Brawler (2.5 points.)

(This is ignoring Bowser Jr., Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner who all didn't even score a single point)
Top 3 in Smash 4:

• Diddy Kong (1104 points)
• Cloud (905.5)
• Bayonetta (859)

Bottom 5 in Project M:

• Pikachu (61.5 points)
• Charizard (58 points)
• Kirby (34 points)
• Yoshi (30.5 points)
• Olimar (4.5 points)

Top 3 in Project M:

• Fox (328 points)
• Diddy Kong (311.5)
• Wario (281.5)

It's not flawless, you can still see a big difference between the bottom tiers and top tiers in both games, but Project M's difference is significantly smaller, with the only character that has truly failed to gain results being Olimar, who isn't actually considered the worst PM character (That title is agreed by most to go to either Kirby or Bowser, the last of which isn't even in the bottom 5 results!).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

It wouldn't necessarily mean that though, it's possible Smash 4's balance team just kind of sucks (I mean, they nerfed Dedede during the patches on multiple occasions). If they were really good at it you wouldn't see an massive divide between the results of an fan game and a official one in favor of the fan game, Project M's balancing is superior looking at results, tiers still exist like they'll always do but there is far more diversity in the results. What does that tell us? I think it's not that the roster's too big to balance properly, it's more like Nintendo's team can't balance things well, a team with far less resources outdid them, imagine if PM's team was official and had more resources, they'd be able to handle even bigger rosters, right? If Smash's team was like them and actually got good at balancing, there shouldn't be any big problems.

Spoiler: Smash 4 Weighted Results vs Project M Weighted Results

Source: https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...ter-diversity-between-the-5-main-smash-games/
Smash 4's results are from patch 1.1.6 and 1.1.7, Project M is all-time.

Bottom 5 in Smash 4:

• Jigglypuff (5 points.)
• Zelda (5 points.)
• Ganondorf (4 points.)
• Dr. Mario (3.5 points.)
• Mii Brawler (2.5 points.)

(This is ignoring Bowser Jr., Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner who all didn't even score a single point)
Top 3 in Smash 4:

• Diddy Kong (1104 points)
• Cloud (905.5)
• Bayonetta (859)

Bottom 5 in Project M:

• Pikachu (61.5 points)
• Charizard (58 points)
• Kirby (34 points)
• Yoshi (30.5 points)
• Olimar (4.5 points)

Top 3 in Project M:

• Fox (328 points)
• Diddy Kong (311.5)
• Wario (281.5)

It's not flawless, you can still see a big difference between the bottom tiers and top tiers in both games, but Project M's difference is significantly smaller, with the only character that has truly failed to gain results being Olimar, who isn't actually considered the worst PM character (That title is agreed by most to go to either Kirby or Bowser, the last of which isn't even in the bottom 5 results!).

Yeah except Project M only had to balance their game around the competitive ruleset whereas Sakurai didn't cater his game to the small portion of the fanbase that specifically plays no items 1v1s.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

Is it bold for me to make the prediction that a Bethesda character will be in the next Smash?

I'm hearing that Bethesda is rather pleased with how their games are selling on the system. In particular Skyrim... *cough* and are planning on supporting it into the foreseeable future with multiplatform and maybe even exclusive titles.

I really really hope it's not the Dragonborn but hell, if he's interesting then I'm down. But B.J Blazcowicz or The Doom Slayer are better choices in my opinion. I think one of those 3 is rather likely.

And maybe even a Ubisoft character as well... Please no Rabbids. Please Rayman.

You are indeed bold for considering it, but, Bethesda and Id Software's resurgence on Nintendo platforms makes this a good opportunity for the sister companies if they want a character in Smash.

The Id Software characters B.J Blazkowicz and the Doom Marine/Doom Slayer are characters I really want to see. Those two are from history making games on DOS era PCs.

Spoiler: Doom 2's secret levels

Plus, two levels from Wolfenstein 3D were put into Doom 2, classic Doom's sequel, alongside of tracks from Wolfenstein 3D and the Spear of Destiny prequel as secret levels. So in fact, both series could come in via the Doom Marine/Doom Slayer.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It wouldn't necessarily mean that though, it's possible Smash 4's balance team just kind of sucks (I mean, they nerfed Dedede during the patches on multiple occasions). If they were really good at it you wouldn't see an massive divide between the results of an fan game and a official one in favor of the fan game, Project M's balancing is superior looking at results, tiers still exist like they'll always do but there is far more diversity in the results. What does that tell us? I think it's not that the roster's too big to balance properly, it's more like Nintendo's team can't balance things well, a team with far less resources outdid them, imagine if PM's team was official and had more resources, they'd be able to handle even bigger rosters, right? If Smash's team was like them and actually got good at balancing, there shouldn't be any big problems.

Spoiler: Smash 4 Weighted Results vs Project M Weighted Results

Source: https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...ter-diversity-between-the-5-main-smash-games/
Smash 4's results are from patch 1.1.6 and 1.1.7, Project M is all-time.

Bottom 5 in Smash 4:

• Jigglypuff (5 points.)
• Zelda (5 points.)
• Ganondorf (4 points.)
• Dr. Mario (3.5 points.)
• Mii Brawler (2.5 points.)

(This is ignoring Bowser Jr., Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner who all didn't even score a single point)
Top 3 in Smash 4:

• Diddy Kong (1104 points)
• Cloud (905.5)
• Bayonetta (859)

Bottom 5 in Project M:

• Pikachu (61.5 points)
• Charizard (58 points)
• Kirby (34 points)
• Yoshi (30.5 points)
• Olimar (4.5 points)

Top 3 in Project M:

• Fox (328 points)
• Diddy Kong (311.5)
• Wario (281.5)

It's not flawless, you can still see a big difference between the bottom tiers and top tiers in both games, but Project M's difference is significantly smaller, with the only character that has truly failed to gain results being Olimar, who isn't actually considered the worst PM character (That title is agreed by most to go to either Kirby or Bowser, the last of which isn't even in the bottom 5 results!).

Yeah, but the Smash team has these things called deadlines and they need to be respected. PM's team, on the other hand, had all the time in the world to make a nicely balanced game.

And besides, Smash's team may not be as good as PM at balancing, but there are some clear improvements. I mean, look at Brawl and Melee and tell me whether or not they're more balanced than Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member]

Thank you for replying to me! I really appreciate it!

That will only happen if both Sega and Sakurai agree on it. Otherwise, it's not gonna happen. That's how third parties work.

Really? I thought Nintendo and Sega were allies now, you must be right though.

A Pokemon character will definitely happen. But I don't think it's gonna be Marshadow. Not with competition like Lycanroc, Decidueye and Incineroar.
Phew, wrote the fire starter's name right this time.

I know that Incineroar, Decidueye and Lycanroc are more likely to make it than Marshadow. But I personally prefer Marshadow over those three popular pokemon. I said in my earlier post that Marshadow is not likely to make it in as a fighter.

It would be cool for us, the players, but for the dev team, it would be hell. It would mean balancing everyone and having a decent amount of newcomers to counteract the cuts (because there will likely be cuts). Not to mention balancing everything. They did a great job with 4 for the most part, but there's still stuff that isn't quite as balanced, like Bayo, Cloud and, for the sucky end of the spectrum, Jigglypuff.

I'd be happy with a smaller cast if it meant a greater balance and more rest for the dev. If they can pull off a larger cast, that'd be fine too. Basically, I don't mind either way.

How kind of you to put your thoughts for the development team. Developing video games like Smash or any other game is a lot harder than it looks. I will not be upset if they do not even add any characters at all.

Asking for Smash on Steam (or any Nintendo franchise on any console that isn't theirs) is basically like asking for a Whopper at McDonald's. It's never going to happen because it would mean selling out to a business rival. It's not a matter of "Nintendo likes doing that", it's Business 101.

And before you bring Minecraft as an example, it's a very exceptional case, as it was already on a Sony console before Microsoft bought Mojang. Nintendo likely got it because it was already on every modern console but the Wii U and 3DS (Switch didn't exist at the time), so Microsoft probably just said "**** it" and let them have Minecraft on their consoles.

Yes, that is what came into my mind. I doubt any Nintendo game will go on Steam, because they make games and consoles at the same time and much more consistently than Xbox and PS4 ( PS4 and Xbox just "hold" games, but I think they make games much more rarely than Nintendo does. ). Though it would be a dream for all Smash games to go on Steam, but it seems impossible and I understand why Nintendo would not want to do that even if Steam credited Nintendo's logo and gave them most of the money. It would make fans buy less consoles than before. Good point, I should do my research more.

That won't happen. Not because they don't like Melee, but because it would mean changing the entire game.

They'd have to alter a ton of data for a ton of characters, making it hell to properly do right. Especially with how many characters could end up in it.

The result would be an unbalanced mess, which would technically help make it similar to Melee (come at me, Melee fans ), but utimately, it's way too much effort just for what would basically be a switch.

Now that I think about it, you are right. Can they just copy the Melee stuff onto the game and alter the hit boxes or something ( Take this quote with a grain of salt, I might be wrong. ). Anyways, I think you are right about that because that is going to take a lot of time for sure. I already know Melee is unbalanced. You have a good point. I just hope the developers do not make the game too floaty and slow like Brawl. I hope the developers make it fair for the casuals and the competitive players instead of casuals getting their way like Brawl as well. You also make a valid point about a game with a competitive mode and casual mode on the Switch.

That... I actually don't know. Could go either way.

Would be way better than this "Global Smash Power" stuff for sure though.

A For Glory raking system would be great. It would be beneficial for the not as skilled players who play For Glory and the competitive For Glory players who want a good fight. Though I could hear a lot of people whining and being hurt about their ranks going down. Ah well, they need to learn. A ranking system on For Glory would definitely be better than this "Global Smash Power" stuff. Care to go more in depth about this going either way? Do you mean that it could be beneficial for skilled players and not good for players who want to be the best?

Even Luigi's nose?

Luigi's nose is fabulous.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Really? I thought Nintendo and Sega were allies now, you must be right though.

Just because they're not rivals anymore doesn't mean they'll say yes to everything. Like, if one of my friends suggests something I don't agree with, I'm not gonna say yes just because he's my friend.

Luigi's nose is fabulous.

Well... you're not wrong.

 

[Zerp]

Yeah except Project M only had to balance their game around the competitive ruleset whereas Sakurai didn't cater his game to the small portion of the fanbase that specifically plays no items 1v1s.

I don't think I understand your argument, does Project M's casual play or doubles play suffer more than Smash 4's does as a result of it's balance or something?

Yeah, but the Smash team has these things called deadlines and they need to be respected. PM's team, on the other hand, had all the time in the world to make a nicely balanced game.

Fair point, but please do keep in mind that the PM devs weren't full-time developers, they weren't being paid and they had other stuff in their lives to do, it kind of evens out.

And besides, Smash's team may not be as good as balancing, but there are some clear improvements. I mean, look at Brawl and Melee and tell me whether or not they're more balanced than Smash 4.

Unpopular opinion time: The team hasn't really improved, Smash 4 IS more balanced than the other official titles, but I feel like it's only because it had patches and the others weren't able to receive them consistently (Melee had an couple for each release). Looking at PP Diddy, PP Sheik (also, what's up with how long it took them to properly nerf her?), PP Cloud and PP Bayonetta, it really does feel like the team never quite thought too hard about accidentally over-tuning an character, any of those could have gotten really out of hand had they not gotten patched and had their metas develop further.

Still though, I am grateful that Smash 4 got patches and isn't Brawl levels of unbalanced.

Luigi's nose is fabulous.

Spoiler: Best picture of the day

There was once an time where Sakurai's picture of the day was about Luigi's nose. What other character has an nose so fabulous to get an day dedicated to it?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Fair point, but please do keep in mind that the PM devs weren't full-time developers, they weren't being paid and they had other stuff in their lives to do, it kind of evens out.

Not really because again, there are no deadlines. If anything, it made it infinitely less stressful for the PM team since they didn't need to have a character properly tuned for X date; they could go at their own pace all the time.

Yes, they weren't paid. Yes, they weren't working full-time on it. But they still had much more freedom than the Smash devs.

 

[Luminario]

Not really because again, there are no deadlines. If anything, it made it infinitely less stressful for the PM team since they didn't need to have a character properly tuned for X date; they could go at their own pace all the time.

Yes, they weren't paid. Yes, they weren't working full-time on it. But they still had much more freedom than the Smash devs.

You'd think after months and months of patches done by professionals they'd have gotten it right if deadlines were an issue. Frankly put, they either didn't listen to the feedback, or they specifically weren't allowed to mess with the characters too much. I'm betting on the second reason seeing as how the Smash team did modify a few things that casual fans wouldn't notice that much, like a specific Diddy combo or WFT's Header endlag or the time Zelda's Phantom regenerates. The 3rd Party DLC characters were also clearly designed to be powerful too, likely to incentivize and reward purchase, which only adds to the theory that the balancing was flawed by design.

 

[Krysco]

Yeah, the balancing wasn't the greatest. Pay-to-win dlc, though really, that only applied to Cloud and Bayo (you could argue Mewtwo is like that now but not only is he on the lower end of top tier, he was also much worse upon his release), certain lower end characters getting nerfed (Link's jab, D3, Mac) or in the case of Puff, not getting buffed at all. With Puff specifically, this isn't the most popular opinion but if they aren't gonna even try to make her better, I'd honestly rather her just not be in the game. I get that she's meant to be a joke character but I'd still prefer if they actually gave the slightest attempt at making her better or just take her out and use that time to focus on other aspects of the game.

As for the 'not just balancing for 1v1' bit, it's still 1v1 but FG is a much different beast compared to competitive matches. 5 minutes compared to 6, only having FD to fight on and lag making things more difficult. I'm pretty sure FG is the reason we have to thank for D3 getting nerfed despite already being one of the worst characters in the game.

I at least appreciate the attempt the dev team did towards balancing the game, I'm just not a fan of Cloud and Bayo's initial release or their overly large focus on taking away things rather than adding. Most buffs were making good tools better rather than making bad tools good.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sometimes you just can't have a fighting game without someone being the joke character. But even then, some adjustments that the software updates made were unjustified.

 

[Zerp]

I found something somewhat related to the current topic.
“During development of Super Smash Bros. and Super Smash Bros. Melee, I balanced the game personally. For the third game, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, we monitored a team of four people, looking at their records against each other, for example, and adjusted from there. This time, we’re monitoring a team of 12 people…”- Masahiro Sakurai, http://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/09/sakurai-on-balance/
"Generally speaking, the most important resource for balancing is the report we receive from the playtesting team. While the playtesters don’t ever appear in the spotlight, I’m confident they’re skilled enough to perform quite well in a tournament.

In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments." https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/11/the-act-of-balancing-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-480/

Anyone know what the average number of people on an balancing team for a game of Smash's caliber should be on average? I sure don't, but 12 seems awful small, especially if they're just altering things "based on their records against eachother", and looking at just some For Glory Data/Internet comments " instead of monitoring tournaments and their results, perhaps somebody in the office got a little too good for his sake at Dedede.

You'd think after months and months of patches done by professionals they'd have gotten it right if deadlines were an issue. Frankly put, they either didn't listen to the feedback, or they specifically weren't allowed to mess with the characters too much. I'm betting on the second reason seeing as how the Smash team did modify a few things that casual fans wouldn't notice that much, like a specific Diddy combo or WFT's Header endlag or the time Zelda's Phantom regenerates. The 3rd Party DLC characters were also clearly designed to be powerful too, likely to incentivize and reward purchase, which only adds to the theory that the balancing was flawed by design.

I almost think you're right, but if the balancing was flawed by design, wouldn't it be an massive mistake that Jigglypuff wasn't the worst originally and only became the worst after they realized they really messed up like ten different characters by making them worse than her? There's no way they're THAT incompetent right? I'm going with the assumption that they're just incompetent at balancing, partially because of logic, and partially because I admittedly don't want to believe in the dev team stooping to such low practices. However, I will point out that Mr. Sakurai has stated that e'd oversee changes made and would veto anything he disagreed with so it's possible that


Turns out you're right.
"Of course, I don’t approve all of their proposals right away. There’s no point in making the game more balanced if it decreases the fun factor. To give an extreme example, I could make all the characters perform similarly to Mario and achieve perfect balance. However, that probably wouldn’t be very fun at all." -Masahiro Sakurai, https://sourcegaming.info/2015/06/11/the-act-of-balancing-sakurai-famitsu-column-vol-480/

I hate everything.

Sometimes you just can't have a fighting game without someone being the joke character. But even then, some adjustments that the software updates made were unjustified.

Having an joke character is fine, but they could have at least done the courtesy of making the character an lethal joke character that can fight on par with the rest of the cast given that hey, these are all beloved characters who do have fans, or alternatively, if they HAVE to make somebody weak as an joke, why not just use Sandbag instead given that he's an original character designed specifically for Smash?

 

[Deleted member]

If Smash Five for the switch came out, will the developer find a way to make game cube controllers allowed? What are your thoughts?

 

[Zerp]

If Smash Five for the switch came out, will the developer find a way to make game cube controllers allowed? What are your thoughts?

They probably will, remember that Switch patch that "unintentionally" made the GC Controller adapter work and just magically had all the buttons conveniently mapped and working? I'm like 90% sure they accidentally released that and then pretended it wasn't intentional because it wasn't mean't to be revealed yet, not sure if it's for Smash (probably for an upcoming Gamceube VC, I believe Mr. Miyamoto stated something about wanting all Nintendo games to eventually be playable on the Switch) but if that works then there's no way they wouldn't t least give us an option to use the GC Controller when or if Smash comes around.