Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm honestly struggling to think of a better case in gaming of where a supporting character took over the franchise like Isabelle did.

It's sort of a hard thing to ignore no matter the pacifist nature of the franchise or her character.

#1: you all take sakurai's and others words way too literally.

self-explanatory. Yes, the Zelda thing is a nice excuse, but we don't have have a Ganondorf from Breath of the Wild and somewhere (correct me if I'm wrong) it's stated that the developers wanted to go with a character from each main zelda game

i think here's a better place to get started. Am definitely in agreement; I think she'll be coming back, either as playable or as an assist.

 

[Pyra]

Isabelle will be the new "post-Master/Crazy Hand" boss fight. Turns out, she's the one who made Master Core, and is also mass producing them.

It's easy cause she can just turn them into leaves and put them in her pocket.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Isabelle will be the new "post-Master/Crazy Hand" boss fight. Turns out, she's the one who made Master Core, and is also mass producing them.

It's easy cause she can just turn them into leaves and put them in her pocket.

Did she make the Core on accident or did Killager tell her to make it?

 

[Dragoncharystary]

If you want my honest opinion, unless your name is Ninten or Chrom, pleading or rooting for them to be an Echo is kind of desperate don't you think?

I'd put Octoling on this list as well.

I'm honestly struggling to think of a better case in gaming of where a supporting character took over the franchise like Isabelle did.

It's sort of a hard thing to ignore no matter the pacifist nature of the franchise or her character.

Best one I can come up with is Rabbids and Rayman.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

While it's true that most people would always qualify they wanted Dixie to be a semi-clone, the fact that her name has always been tossed around as potential clone material is what makes her the number one candidate for echo now. And while very few people were actively petitioning for Shadow as a clone, he's been the single most popular "alt costume" mod for years, and yes, Nintendo knows full well we mod these games, they keep track of those sites same as they keep track of these ones.

That's reaching too far for Dixie-fans to settle on for asking her to be a semi-clone - since there's a clear backlash already on her being an Echo.

Just because it'd be easy way to please the crowd, doesn't mean it's the best one to go with - nor Dixie-fans should be "grateful" for Sakurai about that, if that's all he'd make her to be. If he sees her as an afterthought, so will Dixie-fans, because they're essentially receiving Girl Diddy instead.

There's not a single echo/clone that couldn't have a completely unique moveset, that's really not the point. The question is not should Dixie be an echo (people who actually know me will know I'm vehemently a Dixie supporter over literally every other character out there), it's will she be one. And I don't see any of the arguments for why she shouldn't be one (arguments I agree with) as arguments for why she won't be.

It's all depending on how Sakurai sees Dixie as, anyway. But since she was considered to Brawl as Diddy's tag partner, it shows some hypothetical proof that she'd been looked on more depth than just being Nana to Diddy.

Along with this is the constant emphasis on her trophies talking about her ponytail centrally, showing that Smash-series isn't ignorant on her unique traits that distinguish her from Diddy at large. You could see this even in her Smash Tour Trophy-function, which allowed the player to gain an extra jump - referencing her special skill in Tropical Freeze. This kind of shows that Sakurai and his team aren't ignorant on Dixie sporting unique abilities.

The current assumption now is that Sakurai will be adding Dixie as an Echo due how Diddy might be having a tail-less jab compared to last game, and (strangely) well-received and easy way it has become in the fanbase, as well as having done already less accurate additions in the past before (Dorf + other Echoes).

Now the question is, will Sakurai go being completely ignorant on how he considered Dixie before because how Echoes seem so easy to implement, in exchange of their unique traits. At the moment, Dixie being considered to Brawl seems to bit of rally against that, along with how she's been portrayed through trophies up to this point.

This all before all the arguments indeed on why she shouldn't be an Echo, due how it'd go completely against her uniqueness up to this point, and probably taint it for good as so, because people will start thinking or even claiming she was "Girl Diddy" all along, much like what happened to other Echoes.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Topic: Are there any characters you are currently not predicting to be in the base roster, but are keeping an eye on the real possibility of it happening?

Agnes Oblige from Bravely Default.

The last game I believe was the best selling game at the time of it's release and it was published by Nintendo in the west. I was thinking maybe we might get two characters for each third party company (Namco: Pac-Man, Heihachi; Capcom: Mega Man, Ryu; Sega: Sonic, Bayonetta; Square Enix: Cloud, Agnes.)

But, I doubt we're gonna get characters based on that criteria, so I'm really leaning between her and Lloyd Irving, because he's been long requested and from a longstanding series, and he'd be easy to get the rights to since his company is developing the game.

But, I can imagine that Agnes has gotten A LOT of requests as well.

 

[KMDP]

I'm honestly struggling to think of a better case in gaming of where a supporting character took over the franchise like Isabelle did.

Best one I can come up with is Rabbids and Rayman.

Pikachu. Game Freak was trying to make Clefairy the mascot. We all know how that turned out.

 

[MainJPW]

Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.

That can't be the real reason as Zelda's don't fight anyway, they only ever arch and seal. BOTW Zelda has the power of sealing so she could've worked. Being a scholar also didn't stop BOTW Zelda from being in Hyrule Warriors.

 

[UltimateWario]

Agnes Oblige from Bravely Default.

Her Final Smash could be making you play the same match 5 times over, all while convinced that the other fighters who are obviously trying to kill her are her best friends that would never betray her.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Delphox is literally the worst designed starter I have ever seen. The model in XY was just.... atrocious as well. I love Pokemon (when it was good) and the starters. Imma keep it at that. Literally any other starter than that monstrosity pls. How did that Pokemon even get support?

 

[N3ON]

Final Round!

Spoiler: New guys

Enjoy! Thrilled people took a shine to them. Don't plan on making more of these right now, but maybe later on!

Spoiler: Backlog

 

[KMDP]

That can't be the real reason as Zelda's don't fight anyway, they arch and seal. BOTW Zelda has the power of sealing so she could've worked. Being a scholar also didn't stop BOTW Zelda from being in Hyrule Warriors.

BOTW Zelda is an alt costume in a game where almost all canon versions of each character are alt costumes or otherwise playable in some form. It's not really the same thing.

 

[Idon]

That can't be the real reason as Zelda's don't fight anyway, they only ever arch and seal. BOTW Zelda has the power of sealing so she could've worked. Being a scholar also didn't stop BOTW Zelda from being in Hyrule Warriors.

Because that one's just a costume and not a real character.
Granted, had BotW Zelda been in, she would probably have a unique guardian focused weapon.

My thoughts on the real reason is Zelda's animations kinda assume she's wearing a long flowing dress and they didn't want to reanimate her so they just used the ALttP design.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

That's reaching too far for Dixie-fans to settle on for asking her to be a semi-clone - since there's a clear backlash already on her being an Echo.

Just because it'd be easy way to please the crowd, doesn't mean it's the best one to go with - nor Dixie-fans should be "grateful" for Sakurai about that, if that's all he'd make her to be. If he sees her as an afterthought, so will Dixie-fans, because they're essentially receiving Girl Diddy instead.




It's all depending on how Sakurai sees Dixie as, anyway. But since she was considered to Brawl as Diddy's tag partner, it shows some hypothetical proof that she'd been looked on more depth than just being Nana to Diddy.

Along with this is the constant emphasis on her trophies talking about her ponytail centrally, showing that Smash-series isn't ignorant on her unique traits that distinguish her from Diddy at large. You could see this even in her Smash Tour Trophy-function, which allowed the player to gain an extra jump - referencing her special skill in Tropical Freeze. This kind of shows that Sakurai and his team aren't ignorant on Dixie sporting unique abilities.

The current assumption now is that Sakurai will be adding Dixie as an Echo due how Diddy might be having a tail-less jab compared to last game, and (strangely) well-received and easy way it has become in the fanbase, as well as having done already less accurate additions in the past before (Dorf + other Echoes).

Now the question is, will Sakurai go being completely ignorant on how he considered Dixie before because how Echoes seem so easy to implement, in exchange of their unique traits. At the moment, Dixie being considered to Brawl seems to bit of rally against that, along with how she's been portrayed through trophies up to this point.

This all before all the arguments indeed on why she shouldn't be an Echo, due how it'd go completely against her uniqueness up to this point, and probably taint it for good as so, because people will start thinking or even claiming she was "Girl Diddy" all along, much like what happened to other Echoes.

Just because a character has unique abilities, doesn't mean they won't be an echo. Dixie has a ponytail that would most likely be implemented in to her recovery and some special attacks, but that's her only unique character trait. She has a guitar for a Final Smash, but maybe they'll give that to Diddy and Dixie both since Diddy is gonna have his Final Smash changed.

The assumption that Dixie would be based on Diddy Kong is not only completely logical, it's just objective. Of course Sakurai would take assets from Diddy Kong just like Jigglypuff took from Kirby. Dixie is not interesting enough of a fighter for her to stand alone as a newcomer. Her similarities to Diddy are just inevitable.

Just because a character is made unique, doesn't mean they'd be interesting. That's a big factor here that people aren't taking into consideration.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

But, I doubt we're gonna get characters based on that criteria, so I'm really leaning between her and Lloyd Irving, because he's been long requested and from a longstanding series, and he'd be easy to get the rights to since his company is developing the game.

Lloyd is definitely a darkhorse character and I wouldn't be surprised if he did well in the ballot.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Lloyd is definitely a darkhorse character and I wouldn't be surprised if he did well in the ballot.

I know nothing of Lloyd or the Tales series and I've never played a Tekken game, but for some reason I really want Lloyd & Heihachi. They are just really cool characters.

 

[KMDP]

Just because a character has unique abilities, doesn't mean they won't be an echo. Dixie has a ponytail that would most likely be implemented in to her recovery and some special attacks, but that's her only unique character trait. She has a guitar for a Final Smash, but maybe they'll give that to Diddy and Dixie both since Diddy is gonna have his Final Smash changed.

The assumption that Dixie would be based on Diddy Kong is not only completely logical, it's just objective. Of course Sakurai would take assets from Diddy Kong just like Jigglypuff took from Kirby. Dixie is not interesting enough of a fighter for her to stand alone as a newcomer. Her similarities to Diddy are just inevitable.

Just because a character is made unique, doesn't mean they'd be interesting. That's a big factor here that people aren't taking into consideration.

What...? "Dixie is not interesting enough of a fighter"? Dixie would "Objectively" be the same as Diddy?

That sounds incredibly biased.

I'll say this again. In Donkey Kong Country 2 and 3, Dixie plays more like Smash Donkey Kong (A tornado spin, ground slam, and carrying objects overhead), but at Diddy's size. "Not being interesting" is an opinion, not objective fact.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

That can't be the real reason as Zelda's don't fight anyway, they only ever arch and seal. BOTW Zelda has the power of sealing so she could've worked. Being a scholar also didn't stop BOTW Zelda from being in Hyrule Warriors.

If that wasn’t the real reason why then BOTW Zelda would be in the game instead of ALBW Zelda

Because that one's just a costume and not a real character.
Granted, had BotW Zelda been in, she would probably have a unique guardian focused weapon.

My thoughts on the real reason is Zelda's animations kinda assume she's wearing a long flowing dress and they didn't want to reanimate her so they just used the ALttP design.

My thoughts are that Sakurai doesn’t want them to take pics fo BOTW Zelda and not embrace the pure perfection known as ALBW Zelda (that and he probably doesn’t want more English accents from those whom aren’t worthy of it)

 

[Radical Bones]

Final Round!

Spoiler: New guys

Enjoy! Thrilled people took a shine to them. Don't plan on making more of these right now, but maybe later on!

Spoiler: Backlog

These are awesome! Can I use them in my sig?

 

[Will]

News is going around that the illustrator for the Golden Sun series just passed.

****

 

[Thirdkoopa]

What...? "Dixie is not interesting enough of a fighter"? Dixie would "Objectively" be the same as Diddy?

That sounds incredibly biased.

I'll say this again. In Donkey Kong Country 2 and 3, Dixie plays more like Smash Donkey Kong (A tornado spin, ground slam, and carrying objects overhead), but at Diddy's size. "Not being interesting" is an opinion, not objective fact.

correct me if i'm wrong TheLastJinjo but I think what he meant when he said "she would objectively be based on Diddy" more reads to me as "Dixie's model wouldn't be built from the ground up, it would just be based on Diddy's model and then go from there" which, if that's what he means, that's sensible.

unless he's arguing that Dixie could only be an echo. If he's arguing the latter, I highly disagree.

 

[Opossum]

Not trying to knock Isabelle, but does everything need to be playable in Smash?

Just saying, this exact reasoning was used against Duck Hunt prior to Smash 4. It really doesn't work.

That and I will forever maintain that Isabelle is the most likely unannounced newcomer for this game, outside of Simon due to Vergeben.

 

[KMDP]

correct me if i'm wrong TheLastJinjo but I think what he meant when he said "she would objectively be based on Diddy" more reads to me as "Dixie's model wouldn't be built from the ground up, it would just be based on Diddy's model and then go from there" which, if that's what he means, that's sensible.

unless he's arguing that Dixie could only be an echo. If he's arguing the latter, I highly disagree.

If it's the former, then yes, that is sensible.

The way they worded it sounds like the latter though.

 

[UltimateWario]

News is going around that the illustrator for the Golden Sun series just passed.

****

Shame. Golden Sun was really influential for me as a young teen. It's basically the standard by which I judge all RPGs that aren't Pokemon.

Love the guy's art, too. Rest in peace.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

correct me if i'm wrong TheLastJinjo but I think what he meant when he said "she would objectively be based on Diddy" more reads to me as "Dixie's model wouldn't be built from the ground up, it would just be based on Diddy's model and then go from there" which, if that's what he means, that's sensible.

That's what I meant.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

On Dixie I'm just going to say that technically she could be an echo, yes, she shares Diddy's build and if they got rid of his tail attacks (I don't think they'd change an existing character for the sake of making an echo based on them anyway) then I suppose it would work. But doing so would require them to completely ignore Dixie's ponytail and the unique abilities it posses, the ponytail is her THING and not having her main weapon be used in smash would definitely be disrespectful to the character and her original appearances. It's not like Daisy or Lucina who have little to work with to the point that making a unique moveset for them is kind of a waste of time, they'd have to actively ignore her defining trait for the sake of making her a clone, sakurai wants to represent characters at least somewhat faithfully for the most part and making her a clone would go against that.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I wonder if they could just like... show like a random pixel from like a potential new fighter as like... a teaser. How wild would that be?

 

[ReeseBalaski]

For Dixie, it honestly depends on what it means to be an Echo Fighter. My interpretation of Echo Fighters is that in order to be one, you must have moves that look and function in a similar manner. Lucina and Dark Pit may have altered damage/knockback for some of their moves and the latter may have two altered special attacks, but in practice all of those things are effectively the same as the original characters.

The defining trait of Echo Fighters being separate this time around seems to be in terms of personality. Peach is serene and graceful whereas Daisy is hyper and spunky; Pit is heroic and flighty (teehee) whereas Dark Pit is cocky and brash; Marth is gentle and emotional whereas Lucina is stoic and composed. These traits are shown in different idle animations, taunts, and victory poses (among other things) Basically, a character is an echo fighter if their moves function effectively (not literally) the same way as the originals, but have their own defining characteristics to set them apart.

Dixie, however, has much more. She has moves that physically differentiate her from Diddy, allowing her to do things Diddy can't and vice versa. And since Sakurai likes to pull from a character's home games as much as possible (unless there's certain circumstances preventing him from doing so), Dixie most likely would use her hair, among other weapons in her arsenal. Trying to incorporate her hair while also making her an Echo Fighter is way too much work for characters that are effectively glorified alts. That would require tweaking the base character (Diddy) so much that she would effectively have different moves. She wouldn't be an echo anymore.

Really, it's the same reason why Dr. Mario isn't considered an Echo. Despite having a pretty similar (if not the exact same) skeleton as Mario, he has different overall statistics in every area, and has his own unique moves as well. This is probably the reason why characters like Pichu and Young Link aren't Echoes too. There's simply too much that's different for them to be put in that category. A category that I believe Dixie would fall into as well.

And in all honesty, the whole Echo Fighter thing is really annoying. Because we don't have concrete statements on how a character is considered an Echo, we get debates like this that have no right answer due to lack of information. Those first four paragraphs I just wrote are all just based on my assumptions on how Echoes work. I could be completely wrong for all I know. These are just my opinions on why Dixie can't be an Echo fighter.

Also, hello.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Tomorrow's preview:

Mei Ling: Honestly, I'm not sure who I'd pick out of the three... they're all adorable!

Next up:

 

[Radical Bones]

Fun fact from a Reddit comment:

Smash Blog Running tally:

19 out of 64 characters

2 out of 6 new items

5 out of 8 new Assist Trophies

4 out of 7 new Pokemon

1 out of 3 new stages (4 out of 84 total)

Bonus: out of the 30 franchises with playable characters, 7 have received remixes on the music page

 

[BlondeLombax]

Delphox is literally the worst designed starter I have ever seen. The model in XY was just.... atrocious as well. I love Pokemon (when it was good) and the starters. Imma keep it at that. Literally any other starter than that monstrosity pls. How did that Pokemon even get support?

Probably thanks to the fact that for once, it wasn't a fire/fighting type. I haven't played XY, though, so I have no say in the matter, really.

That can't be the real reason as Zelda's don't fight anyway, they only ever arch and seal. BOTW Zelda has the power of sealing so she could've worked. Being a scholar also didn't stop BOTW Zelda from being in Hyrule Warriors.

Well, uh... there's also this one, but... should we really consider taking her into consideration?

Spoiler: This is a serious question.

 

[KMDP]

News is going around that the illustrator for the Golden Sun series just passed.

****

Yeah, that happened a few days ago, I think he was retired, and had already retired before Dark Dawn came out.

Take my statement with a grain of salt, though, I'm not certain.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Just because a character has unique abilities, doesn't mean they won't be an echo. Dixie has a ponytail that would most likely be implemented in to her recovery and some special attacks, but that's her only unique character trait.

As an Echo, she wouldn't even receive any unique specials or recovery that'd allow her to use her ponytail. Otherwise she'd be elevated to "Melee Clone"-status that Pichu, Young Link and Dr.Mario are currently being like in Ultimate.

Right now her being an Echo would mean she'd use Bubble Gun Popgun and Rocketbarrel Boost, taking them from Diddy at large, while there'd be nothing new programmed for her as an attack, aside from a possibility of a different Final Smash compared to Diddy. That's how expendable her unique ability would become if she were turned to an Echo for Diddy.

Also, ninja'd by R ReeseBalaski , but they put it better and faster than I did, too busy reading replies updated here.

The assumption that Dixie would be based on Diddy Kong is not only completely logical, it's just objective. Of course Sakurai would take assets from Diddy Kong just like Jigglypuff took from Kirby. Dixie is not interesting enough of a fighter for her to stand alone as a newcomer. Her similarities to Diddy are just inevitable.

That's what I meant.

I never was against her being a semi-clone, or tried to deny her similar appearance to Diddy here, though. My point still is that making her be a glorified alternate costume for Diddy just because she's similar to Diddy in appearance and bodybuild, would not make any sense to what she's capable in canon, and wouldn't please her fans in general if she was received that way.

 

[MainJPW]

If that wasn’t the real reason why then BOTW Zelda would be in the game instead of ALBW Zelda

His reason was that she wasn't a fighter, but outside of being mind controlled in TP and through Sheik Zelda's themselves aren't fighters. BotW Zelda, like Shiek and Tetra, was more part of the action than other Zelda's and "being a researcher" didn't stop her from sealing away Ganon with the full triforce. What Idon said could be the reason why she wasn't chosen.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Anyone here had a chance to play the Comic-Con demo yet?

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

So, which Cut Character are y'all most excited for? Young Link for me.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So, which Cut Character are y'all most excited for? Young Link for me.

, hands down.

I literally screamed for joy and become a shaking excited mess when he showed up and the words “EVERYONE IS HERE!” appeared on screen.

 

[MainJPW]

So, which Cut Character are y'all most excited for? Young Link for me.

Probably Wolf.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

, hands down.

I literally screamed for joy and become a shaking excited mess when he showed up and the words “EVERYONE IS HERE!” appeared on screen.

Same tbh. I'm usually a very calm person. but Smash Bros. Ultimate had me screaming.
I'm embarrassed now xD

 

[Zinith]

So, which Cut Character are y'all most excited for? Young Link for me.

Eh, I don't know if I'm really that excited for any of them. Maybe Pokemon Trainer for the unique mechanic that won't get ****ed up this time and also because they're reptiles and I'm a sucker for them...