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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Murlough

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Wasn’t it a PR move to just really say “Stay Stuned”? I think we might get one reveal during the summer, since I can’t imagine cramming all the reveals into 2 month period (that would be pretty hype though).

I mean if we start getting reveals by Fall at the minimum then there’s not much point in being here until October or something.
Thats just a theory. It just sounds like a "I'm interpretting this the way I want to hear it" as opposed to actually reading what they said but who knows. Personally, I'm pretty sure they mean wait for Fall, at the least.
That song is not allowed to be remixed...it’s too precious to be messed with

I was also referring to Corrin only, said they due to the two genders the avatar has, and the only competition for them I could think of FE wise would be Alm and/or Celica

Because we can’t wait for more anything due to the hype Smash contains...let us go crazy
I'm not trying to stop anybody from doing anything.

I just don't understand why people are still half-expecting reveals any day now when they specifically said "closer to December." It baffles me.
 

Will

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Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.
*cracks knuckles*
*stretches arms*
*leans back*

T H I S
 

Godzillathewonderdog

Smash Master
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Another Zelda clone?

Half of Zelda’s roster are clones or stem from other characters (Toon Link, Young Link, Ganondorf).

But I do admit that Impa does make sense since she is Sheik’s teacher after all, (a lot more than some of the other choices, Dixie) but at this point I want Zelda to have another unique character.
Yeah, that's the only problem with the idea.

That's why we need Skull Kid, so we can have a unique newcomer to go along with her.

Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.
IMG_1855.PNG
I didn't think about it that way.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Well, yeah, but I was wondering how Ganondorf could get his f-smash to hit with the amount of start-up it seems to have. But I do agree that parrying will be more rewarding, albeit more risky without mastering.
iirc it depends on the move actually, a jab parry gives you less frames than a Smash attack parry tbh so that's probably it
 

MargnetMan23

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Topic: Are there any characters you are currently not predicting to be in the base roster, but are keeping an eye on the real possibility of it happening? Right now, I am being wary of these characters possibly happening:

-Heihachi (Tekken)
-Lloyd Irving (Tales of)
-Saber Artoria (Fate)
-Hyouma Kyouma (Steins;Gate)
-Ashley (WarioWare)
-Dark Samus (Metroid)
-Excitebiker (Excitebike)
-Frogger (Frogger)
-Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
-Jill (Resident Evil)
-Mini-Kangaroo Nintendo Toy Mascot
-Prince Sable (For the Frog the Bell Tolls)
-Ryu Hayabasa (Ninja Gaiden)

Half of these are from Japanese third-party franchises that I know are globally popular.
Man if we had a character originally from an eroge in a Smash game... well, that would be something.
 
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Roberk

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Yes, I'm fairly sure some leakers have claimed them as Shulk echoes.

Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.
Run to the hills, incoming "Isabelle is the last true Nintendo All-Star to be in Smash, she deserves to be in, Villager got in, she could have a unique moveset, etc." Not trying to knock Isabelle, but does everything need to be playable in Smash?
 
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D

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iirc it depends on the move actually, a jab parry gives you less frames than a Smash attack parry tbh so that's probably it
I recall this being said somewhere, but I don't remember where if it was said at all.
 

Pakky

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Yes, I'm fairly sure some leakers have claimed them as Shulk echoes.

Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.
I'm always in flux with this but you're right.

Echoes aren't bad when appropriate but I just don't know about Isabelle.
 

vaanrose

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In addition to Daisy being a popular character in general, back when Smash 4 was just about to come out and the first copies started showing up in the wild, people were disappointed to learn that Alph and the Koopalings were alts, but that Daisy wasn't. I was there, I remember when someone who had the game erroneously interpreted the question of if Peach had a Daisy alt to be if Peach still had her Daisy palette swap and told people she did. Fans were actively disappointed when it turned out Daisy didn't get the same treatment that Lucina, Dark Pit or Alph got. That's why she's the first echo announced, and that's why she could very well be the only new echo in the game.

Everybody looking at characters that makes sense for echoes now is going about it the wrong way. You need to go back and look at characters that people already wanted as clones/alts.

While it's true that most people would always qualify they wanted Dixie to be a semi-clone, the fact that her name has always been tossed around as potential clone material is what makes her the number one candidate for echo now. And while very few people were actively petitioning for Shadow as a clone, he's been the single most popular "alt costume" mod for years, and yes, Nintendo knows full well we mod these games, they keep track of those sites same as they keep track of these ones.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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I prefer costumes over echoes when it comes to DLC because you can make numerous amount of costumes that will take even less effort than a echo fighter. I just want to be able to play with different costumes; I care not for other aesthetics personally. Also judging from live reactions of Corrin reveal; I dare say echo fighters wouldn't receive a warm welcome either unless they're dirt cheap and comes with a brand new character.
 

Pakky

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Everybody looking at characters that makes sense for echoes now is going about it the wrong way. You need to go back and look at characters that people already wanted as clones/alts.

While it's true that most people would always qualify they wanted Dixie to be a semi-clone, the fact that her name has always been tossed around as potential clone material is what makes her the number one candidate for echo now. And while very few people were actively petitioning for Shadow as a clone, he's been the single most popular "alt costume" mod for years, and yes, Nintendo knows full well we mod these games, they keep track of those sites same as they keep track of these ones.
Dixie has a defining trait that Diddy does not.

Shadow's abilities shift and change but on the whole its believable and accurate fro him to have the same abilities has Sonic.
 
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Pyra

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I just don't understand why people are still half-expecting reveals any day now when they specifically said "closer to December." It baffles me.
It's more likely that that was saying "as we are approaching the release date we will let you know more" (i.e. any moment between now and then) than "literally we're making the window narrower, this is an announcement my dudes, y'all have a time frame now, hell yeah"
but yeah no way to know until it inevitably happens
 
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RandomAce

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Thats just a theory. It just sounds like a "I'm interpretting this the way I want to hear it" as opposed to actually reading what they said but who knows. Personally, I'm pretty sure they mean wait for Fall, at the least.

I'm not trying to stop anybody from doing anything.

I just don't understand why people are still half-expecting reveals any day now when they specifically said "closer to December." It baffles me.
I just read it again and all Bill Trinen says is, “We’ll be able to answer that when we get closer to December”.

It’s definitely a “stay tuned” PR move. Although I’m interested in what you think, how do you think the reveals will roll out with this game? I think it’s possible to expect at least 1 newcomer reveal in the summer to at least get the hype train rolling for these couple of months, 1 more reveal in September, and a ton for October and November where we can also get a Smash direct.

EDIT: Wrote the exact sentence Bill said.
 
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**Gilgamesh**

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That's exactly what I'm saying. Cloud has been our most "mind-blowing" character so far in terms of "he's not Nintendo", but even then FF has had a long history with Nintendo. Master Cheif would the true antithesis character, where Smash has grown so much it can add a character who's cross-promotion would seemingly hurt Nintendo as it's from a current competitor. That's the boundary that Smash has yet to cross, and I think Master Cheif would be the one.
Idk about that. Cloud basically sold the PlayStation along with the fact his game revolutioned the industry as well (also being exclusive to PlayStation). Sony then preceded to heavily dominate during the following PlayStation 2 generation. I'd say the fact Final Fantasy during it's golden days becoming exclusive to Sony definitely put a dent in Nintendo considering it was the universally best known RPG series at the time. That's why I find Cloud inclusion so bizarre. The fact FF VII put Sony in buisness which would then become a DIRECT competitor that easy bested them in the following generation after makes me appreciate Nintendo and Sakurai willing to put in characters that are very popular. FF VII remake is also not coming to the Switch unless its massively scaled down because it's rumored to be on the next gen PlayStation and Xbox consoles since it's in development hell right now.
 
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KMDP

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I just read it again and all Bill Trinen says is, “We’ll give more information when we get closer to December”.

It’s definitely a “stay tuned” PR move. Although I’m interested in what you think, how do you think the reveals will roll out with this game? I think it’s possible to expect at least 1 newcomer reveal in the summer to at least get the hype train rolling for these couple of months, 1 more reveal in September, and a ton during October and November.
I think it would be more clear if he had said "We'll give more information as we get closer to December", which implies that there'll be more reveals.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You guys can keep saying this like I don't already know it, but it changes nothing about my argument.
Honestly, the only thing that would require any real work is simply animating her hair. Otherwise, she works just fine as an echo, assuming Diddy doesn't have tail attacks. As that would obviously require way more animation changes to make the hair do those attacks than what a simple echo is. Though if it's one attack, it might still work fine?
 

ColietheGoalie

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I never heard of this anime
That's probably my favorite anime.

Yes, I'm fairly sure some leakers have claimed them as Shulk echoes.

Irrelevent, Sakurai didn't pick BOTW Zelda because she was a Scholar, not a Combatant, just like Isabelle.
The difference being that Zelda has a combat ready version already in game, so he chose not to go with the more peaceful new version. Isabelle is not in the game yet, but is highly popular. There's no other version of her to go with, so I think the pacifist rule could go out the window
 

Pokechu

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Didn't Diddy's tail attacks get removed?

Echo Dixie isn't what I want, nor what the poor girl should get, but it is completely possible.
 
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KMDP

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That's probably my favorite anime.


The difference being that Zelda has a combat ready version already in game, so he chose not to go with the more peaceful new version. Isabelle is not in the game yet, but is highly popular. There's no other version of her to go with, so I think the pacifist rule could go out the window
But Isabelle has been in the game, as an Assist Trophy, doing Support, like a (presumed) Pacifist would.
 

Dragoncharystary

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Topic: Are there any characters you are currently not predicting to be in the base roster, but are keeping an eye on the real possibility of it happening? Right now, I am being wary of these characters possibly happening:

-Heihachi (Tekken)
-Lloyd Irving (Tales of)
-Saber Artoria (Fate)
-Hyouma Kyouma (Steins;Gate)
-Ashley (WarioWare)
-Dark Samus (Metroid)
-Excitebiker (Excitebike)
-Frogger (Frogger)
-Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
-Jill (Resident Evil)
-Mini-Kangaroo Nintendo Toy Mascot
-Prince Sable (For the Frog the Bell Tolls)
-Ryu Hayabasa (Ninja Gaiden)
-Dillon (Dillon's Rolling Western)

Half of these are from Japanese third-party franchises that I know are globally popular.
Fixed!
 

KMDP

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Didn't Diddy's tail attacks get removed?

Echo Dixie isn't what I want, nor what the poor girl should get, but it is completely possible.
I think this is a misconception?

The move that supposedly replaced Diddy's tail attack (the Gentleman) was already in Smash 4.
 

Diddy Kong

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Am I the odd one out in preferring Twintelle for an ARMS rep? Her ARMS are her hair, and she still has human arms, so there’s a lot more uniqueness potential than most of the others, who are already unique in themselves
No. I like her design best as well. Far better than Spring Man's. So that's my first and utmost reason. Don't know anything about her abilities or anything.
 

RandomAce

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I went back to read more about the interview with Trinen and the interesting bit I noticed is a section when they talked about Ridley.

In the bit Trinen explains how Sakurai and his team as well as himself know that people have been “complaining” about characters that are “still out there” that haven’t debuted in Smash, and that he heard that Sakurai just muffles it out because he still chooses the characters he wanted to include.

Interesting, I think it means that the ballot could be used to present Sakurai of characters that fans have been asking for, but if Sakurai doesn’t think they’re unique to be included, then he won’t. He still has control over who he wants to join the fray. This also makes Geno likely because both parties seem to want him.

However, the fans now have a larger say and chance to push the characters they want in the fray. It’s possible the higher placed the character is, the more likley they’ll be considered, however, Sakurai does research on their uniqueness and potential and how they would fit among the cast.
 
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Green_Pikmin*

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Dixie has a defining trait that Diddy does not.

Shadow's abilities shift and change but on the whole its believable and accurate fro him to have the same abilities has Sonic.
I somewhat agree with this. As much as I wouldn’t want him to be an echo, he’s been popular for a while. He could pull off almost his whole moveset from Spindashes, Homing Attacks and even the spring but instead of the classic spring he could have the spring from Sonic Adventure 2. His Final could be his difference though doing something like Chaos Spear while as Super Shadow. (It could be like a Pit and Dark Pit type of deal). Though tbh I really could care less if he’s in or not.
 

Zippo

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I'm getting ready to play Smash soon, but holy crap I can hear Hall H's Dragon Ball panel from here. Give us that trailer, Toei.

I needddddd itttttttttttt
 
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KirbyWorshipper2465

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Topic: Are there any characters you are currently not predicting to be in the base roster, but are keeping an eye on the real possibility of it happening? Right now, I am being wary of these characters possibly happening:

-Heihachi (Tekken)
-Lloyd Irving (Tales of)
-Saber Artoria (Fate)
-Hyouma Kyouma (Steins;Gate)
-Ashley (WarioWare)
-Dark Samus (Metroid)
-Excitebiker (Excitebike)
-Frogger (Frogger)
-Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
-Jill (Resident Evil)
-Mini-Kangaroo Nintendo Toy Mascot
-Prince Sable (For the Frog the Bell Tolls)
-Ryu Hayabasa (Ninja Gaiden)

Half of these are from Japanese third-party franchises that I know are globally popular.
-Master Higgins from Adventure Island (since Bomberman is out of the running, he's the only remaining one to represent Hudson Soft that makes sense)
-Goemon from Ganbare Goemon (his series was HUGE in Japan, so you can bet that a lot of people there would bank on him getting in)
-Captain Toad from Captain Toad's Treasure Tracker and Super Mario
-Bubbles from Clu Clu Land (enough of an oddball that most wouldn't honestly see coming)
-Funky Kong from Donkey Kong Country
-Marx from Kirby
 

Will

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If you want my honest opinion, unless your name is Ninten or Chrom, pleading or rooting for them to be an Echo is kind of desperate don't you think? :rolleyes:
 

Thirdkoopa

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just got in, been reading here and there, but, to make my point on echo's,

#1: you all take sakurai's and others words way too literally.

self-explanatory. Yes, the Zelda thing is a nice excuse, but we don't have have a Ganondorf from Breath of the Wild and somewhere (correct me if I'm wrong) it's stated that the developers wanted to go with a character from each main zelda game

also... I'm with vaanrose vaanrose that it's entirely possible to see no new echo fighters beyond Daisy. I'm definitely not expecting them to hit double digits with echoes; that's for sure.

#2: echoes are likely going to be an after-thought

semi-clones/echoes/alt costumes are pretty much always a 'towards the latter half of development'. if anyone gets echo'd or anything else like that, it's probably b/c they weren't going to make the base roster with an 100% unborrowed moveset

#3: "___ would be wasted potential as an echo" is a non-argumnent

it's a nice emotion! it's a non-argument. As a Wolf and Lucas fan, I understand the feel - I get annoyed that those characters weren't as unique as they could have been. Unless we're talking something completely absurd (K. Rool as an Echo of Captain Falcon, which if someone mods that, please send it to me) it can probably work (at least, from a technical standpoint)

So, can you program Dixie to be an echo? Technically, yes. Same with a lot of the other characters that keep getting brought up? Yeah, probably.

#4: many mentioned 'echo characters' can really go either way

there's characters like chrom that, if included, would absolutely be echo fighters, but for Dixie it could go either way.
could I see her so late in development that they go with her as a semi-clone? Yes.
could I see her so late in development that they go with her as an echo fighter? Yes.
do I see her as a 'later in development' character? Yes.
what do I see her more as? If included in the game, probably a semi-clone/borrowing some move properties, but not enough to be considered an Echo. Probably.
is this same argument basically repeating itself in circles? Yes.

tl;dr: From a technical standpoint, it's possible. I can see the arguments either way, but remember: Other characters that aren't Echo Fighters but still borrow a lot don't cost much time. I assure you Pichu costed them less than most of the characters on the roster. Whatever they do w/ possible Echo Fighters characters is beyond us.
 
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TMNTSSB4

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If Corrin wasn't in 4 they would be competing with the entire pool of viable characters for a newcomer slot, not just FE characters unless Sakurai decided to dedicate a slot specifically to a new FE character.
With the relevancy of Corrin and the development timeline of Ultimate (also having to talk to every company that has a series represented, including ones for Mario and Fire Emblem), they’d be in a high tier chance
I just don't understand why people are still half-expecting reveals any day now when they specifically said "closer to December." It baffles me.
Does help that lots of people don’t trust Sakurai due to his trolling ways (which is understandable)
 

vaanrose

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There's not a single echo/clone that couldn't have a completely unique moveset, that's really not the point. The question is not should Dixie be an echo (people who actually know me will know I'm vehemently a Dixie supporter over literally every other character out there), it's will she be one. And I don't see any of the arguments for why she shouldn't be one (arguments I agree with) as arguments for why she won't be.
 

Omega Tyrant

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Well, yeah, but I was wondering how Ganondorf could get his f-smash to hit with the amount of start-up it seems to have. But I do agree that parrying will be more rewarding, albeit more risky without mastering.
Either Ganon f-smash isn't as slow as people made it out to be, Zelda's d-smash has more ending lag, parrying leaves the opponent stuck in freeze frames, or some combination of those factors.
 

ColietheGoalie

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But Isabelle has been in the game, as an Assist Trophy, doing Support, like a (presumed) Pacifist would.
Yes, but she's exploded in popularity, and is more the face of Animal Crossing than the Villager. If the demand for her as a popular character to become a fighter is great enough, I don't see the assistant status mattering.
 

KMDP

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There's not a single echo/clone that couldn't have a completely unique moveset, that's really not the point. The question is not should Dixie be an echo (people who actually know me will know I'm vehemently a Dixie supporter over literally every other character out there), it's will she be one. And I don't see any of the arguments for why she shouldn't be one (arguments I agree with) as arguments for why she won't be.
Honestly, there are not really any arguments saying Dixie won't be an Echo that hold any water.

There are many, many arguments for why she shouldn't be one.
 

Thirdkoopa

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There's not a single echo/clone that couldn't have a completely unique moveset, that's really not the point. The question is not should Dixie be an echo (people who actually know me will know I'm vehemently a Dixie supporter over literally every other character out there), it's will she be one. And I don't see any of the arguments for why she shouldn't be one (arguments I agree with) as arguments for why she won't be.
I get where you're coming from, but I haven't seen anything groundbreaking on either side yet. There's arguments for why she won't be, but none of these arguments (to me) have solidified enough to give an 100% answer - When I speculate, I'm first looking at "Is it possible from a technical standpoint". Dixie does have enough of a model for her to completely use Diddy's, if they were to go that route, but someone here mentioned Dixie using her hair for attacks instead. That was pretty compelling to me.

But, if we reverse engineer this discussion, we might have more answers: Let's say Dixie's a full semi-clone. What moves would she borrow? How would they be altered? I think once we see answers to these (without people trying to make every single move of hers unique for the sake of it), echo or not, we'll have 1. An idea of how Dixie's moveset will look in the grand scheme of things (assuming she's even in the game) 2. Less of a discussion that repeats itself.
 

Tree Gelbman

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I'm honestly struggling to think of a better case in gaming of where a supporting character took over the franchise like Isabelle did.

It's sort of a hard thing to ignore no matter the pacifist nature of the franchise or her character.
 
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