Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PsychoIncarnate]

Eh, I agree with you on Dedede but at this point Bandanna Dee has overtaken Meta Knight as the third most prominent character in the series. And that's coming from someone who prefers Meta Knight to Bandanna Dee.

There hasn't been a Waddle Dee mode in any of the Kirby games.

There has been a Meta Knight mode in a number of them.

Kirby Star Allies technically has a Waddle Dee mode. But it's also got a Bugzzy mode

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Sure but we have a lot more veterans with no cuts.

This time development also isn't being sunk into making another version of the game for a drastically weaker system or into a huge story mode, while they additionally have the ability to reuse about any asset they want from Smash Wii U and have the same experienced development team as last time (it's a main reason why Sakurai decided to bring everyone back as a top priority, as these circumstances made it a lot easier to bring back all the Smash 4 veterans). 12 unique newcomers is a higher end prediction I think, but it isn't some outrageous amount deserving to be chided and can very well still fit in with Sakurai's vague "I hope you weren't expecting too many newcomers" statement (as it's still less newcomers than what Brawl and Smash 4 got).

 

[TheLastJinjo]

My bad, why would we need a fat kremlin with a crown and 2D Mario?

Because King K. Rool is a completely original character that debuted in a major role. The only one of these two that has a connection to another character is Mario and we've already seen multiple interpretations of the same character.

In other words, neither of these characters are copy-pastes of generic enemies, albeit with different clothing or weaponry.

You're just digging a hole here.

 

[MainJPW]

I like the idea of having a generic toad who simply pulls things from any and all incarnations of toads including captain toad. This sidesteps the no jumping issue and also allows Toad to have a more flexible moveset, though I have no idea what that would be.

Even though I adore Toadette to bits and had Toad as my go to for years in Mario Kart and other spinoffs, I'm not really in a rush to see him join the fray in Smash, maybe because he's just so dang good at his supporting roles.

I always thought he should've been in a long time ago. Why? Toad would destroy; he's depicted as being faster than the Bros. in 3D World and stronger as well by having the fastest lifting speed in Bros. 2. Look at Peach and Daisy's counter, no matter who raises their hand at those dainty princesses someone will be sent flying at the end of it.

That deserves a playable slot, come on.

Also you're going to be hard pressed to find an incarnation of Toad that looks cuter than his look in Mario Party 2.

Please look at my son

Yeah, he looks good.

 

[osby]

Aha--No. That's King Dedede and Meta Knight.


No, it's really not. Comparing generic enemies to Pokemon is not a fair comparison in the slightest.

Jokes on you, Pokémon are generic enemies and Bandana Dee isn't.

 

[Opossum]

I was just... just having fun, playing along...

ITS TOO REAL NOW

IM GOING HOME

;_;

Still in a better spot than Steampunk Captain America at least.

 

[osby]

Because King K. Rool is a completely original character that debuted in a major role. The only one of these two that has a connection to another character is Mario and we've already seen multiple interpretations of the same character.

In other words, neither of these characters are copy-pastes of generic enemies, albeit with different clothing or weaponry.

You're just digging a hole here.

I'm saying you can make generic argument for a lot of characters if you omit everything that makes them unique.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Still in a better spot than Steampunk Captain America at least.

Mr. President...

I don't feel so good....

 

[TheLastJinjo]

No, it's Waddle Dee.

DDD and MK are leads in the games, but in sheer marketing Waddle Dee is #2.

Taking a few photos of a store where Kirby and Waddle Dee are next to each other does not support your claim. You literally chose a video showcasing Waddle Dees specifically.

Explain. Pikachu is a generic Pikachu. Charizard is a generic Charizard.

I already explained the difference. They are Pokemon.

 

[Zerp]

There hasn't been a Waddle Dee mode in any of the Kirby games.

There has been a Meta Knight mode in a number of them.

Kirby Star Allies technically has a Waddle Dee mode. But it's also got a Bugzzy mode

Spoiler

And Meta Knight's been player 2 in the main game by himself and without Dedede/Bandana Dee also being playable when?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I voted for Steampunk Lincoln in the Smash Polls

Spoiler

And Meta Knight's been player 2 in the main game by himself and without Dedede/Bandana Dee also being playable when?

That's not a real kirby game.

 

[N3ON]

Still in a better spot than Steampunk Captain America at least.

Well, yup.

Though I guess when it comes to Steam Rogers, the silver lining is there's few expectations to dash. It's like when wanted Banjo from 2002-2014. Unfortunately now Phil Spencer has gone and given me a sliver of hope, the jackass.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm saying you can make generic argument for a lot of characters if you omit everything that makes them unique.

The difference here is that Waddle Dee has very little that makes him unique. I'm not saying it's not enough to qualify him, but I had to explain to you why your analogy didn't work and why others concerns were well placed.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Is it just me, or has it been a very long for the daily update on the official smash website?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Jokes on you, Pokémon are generic enemies and Bandana Dee isn't.

Jokes on you, Super Smash Bros has already decided that it doesn't see Pokemon as generic enemies.

 

[Opossum]

Well, yup.

Though I guess when it comes to Steam Rogers, the silver lining is there's few expectations to dash. It's like when wanted Banjo from 2002-2014. Unfortunately now Phil Spencer has gone and given me a sliver of hope, the *******.

I wish you luck with getting British Yogi Bear.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Well, yup.

Though I guess when it comes to Steam Rogers, the silver lining is there's few expectations to dash. It's like when wanted Banjo from 2002-2014. Unfortunately now Phil Spencer has gone and given me a sliver of hope, the *******.

I think the Geno thread had the same reaction when Sakurai actually talked good about the character.

Smash 4 was a depressing period after the rejection of Brawl

 

[osby]

Jokes on you, Super Smash Bros has already decided that it doesn't see Pokemon as generic enemies.

Jokes on you, it decided the same with R.O.B., proving it's not unique to Pokémon.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Jokes on you, it decided the same with R.O.B., proving it's not unique to Pokémon.

"Last of his kind"

 

[Zerp]

That's not a real kirby game.

Oh but it is a real Kirby game, in fact, it's canon, unlike say, the Meta Knight sub games in Planet Robobot or Kirby's Nightmare in Dreamland.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

There hasn't been a Waddle Dee mode in any of the Kirby games.

There has been a Meta Knight mode in a number of them.

Kirby Star Allies technically has a Waddle Dee mode. But it's also got a Bugzzy mode

Meta Knight had a mode exclusive to him in one game (Robobot). Bandanna Dee had a game exclusive to him and Kirby (Rainbow Curse) in which Meta Knight and Dedede were only ever mentioned.

Bandanna Dee was at least in the background throughout Triple Deluxe, Meta Knight was nowhere to be found in that game.

And in that game where Meta Knight had his own mode, Bandanna Dee was at least in the game as well.

I'm not counting anything prior to Return to Dreamland because I said in my original post that Bandanna Dee has overtaken Meta Knight since he became a mainstay in the franchise. Meta is still an important character but he hasn't been quite as relevant as he was in past games.

 

[Opossum]

Jokes on you, Super Smash Bros has already decided that it doesn't see Pokemon as generic enemies.

Cryogonal, Chandelure, Petilil, and Koffing would like a word with you. Two words, actually, and those words are Smash Run.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Jokes on you, Super Smash Bros has already decided that it doesn't see Pokemon as generic enemies.

Except it does. Pokeballs, Smash Run, Saffron City(64 Stage).

It goes both ways. Pokemon has tons of generic enemies and has defined characters as playable.

Actually the same thing as how the Kirby games are. Except it also has a tiny few generics playable here and there(including a regular Waddle Dee in Kirby 64, not to be confused with the actual character, Bandanna Dee).

 

[Makai Wars]

Taking a few photos of a store where Kirby and Waddle Dee are next to each other does not support your claim. You literally chose a video showcasing Waddle Dees specifically.

Your staunch denial of the very obvious fact that Waddle Dee is extremely promenint in Kirby marketing does not erase the fact that Waddle Dee is a huge name in the Kirby Franchise. When Goomba stars showing up next to Mario in promotional material then your hat gooba arugment will hold some water.

The real kicker is that Dee placed #2 in the poll we were JUST talking about, oh but no one cares about hat goomba right?

I already explained the difference. They are Pokemon.

You haven't explained anything. Your original argument was that Dee is a bad roster pick because he a generic member of a race of Waddle Dees, and I said that this also applies to Pokemon because each Pokemon in Smash barring Mewtwo is a generic member of their race as well. Then you said "that doesn't count, they're Pokemon" and never explained how that doesn't count. Being part of a race is a bad thing right? Then we should cut Yoshi too since in his games you actually switch off between several different Yoshi.

I'm not even a huge supporter of Waddle Dee, but trying to pretend he's not a serious contender for a Smash fighter is just laughable. You don't have to like him, but don't try to deny that he's important to Kirby.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Meta Knight had a mode exclusive to him in one game (Robobot). Bandanna Dee had a game exclusive to him and Kirby (Rainbow Curse) in which Meta Knight and Dedede were only ever mentioned.

Bandanna Dee was at least in the background throughout Triple Deluxe, Meta Knight was nowhere to be found in that game.

And in that game where Meta Knight had his own mode, Bandanna Dee was at least in the game as well.

I'm not counting anything prior to Return to Dreamland because I said in my original post that Bandanna Dee has overtaken Meta Knight since he bcame a mainstay in the franchise. Meta is still an important character but he hasn't been quite as relevant as he was in past games.

Nightmare in Dreamland also has a Meta Knight mode

And Kirby Superstar has Ultra Meta Nightmare Ultra

 

[Will]

I'll wager my avatar for a month. You?

My dude you lost me at "avatar".

 

[Zerp]

Nightmare in Dreamland also has a Meta Knight mode

And Kirby Superstar has Ultra Meta Nightmare Ultra

Both of those games were before Return to Dreamland though, he said Bandana Dee became more important than Meta Knight after that game came out.

 

[CodeBlue_]

I'm dying waiting for the update so here's another game while we pray for the new track to tide us over for the week.

Pick your favorite newcomers you want based on their color (main or secondary color)! My list:
Red - Ashley / Celica
Blue - Bandana Dee
Green - Linkle
Yellow - Zeraora / Mythra
Purple - Hilda (LBW)
Orange - Goku Infernape
White - Amaterasu / 2B
Black - Shadow
Brown - Sora Just Monika
Pink - Yarn Kirby / Lip

 

[N3ON]

I wish you luck with getting British Yogi Bear.

Euhhhh now I don't know if I want him as much. xP

I think the Geno thread had the same reaction when Sakurai actually talked good about the character.

Smash 4 was a depressing period after the rejection of Brawl

The costume and the statement were a reassuring one-two punch for his future, I can imagine.

My dude you lost me at "avatar".

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Edit: I guess he did

I don't care about some "I only count after" statement

Meta Nightmare has appeared 3 times, including a recent game.

 

[RandomAce]

I’m going to be honest with you,

Bandanna Dee looks pretty plain compared to some of the other Kirby characters.

Basically when Bandanna Dee was first created and used, it was literally just a Waddle Dee with a Bandanna as a Joke boss.

They later gave Bandanna Dee a spear and a playable character in Return to Dream Land because they needed a 4th playable character. However, after that Bandanna Dee wasn’t given a major role until Kirby’s Rainbow Curse? from the Wii U because they needed another playable character, and there can even be 3 of him playable at once. Before and even after that, Bandana Dee consisted of appearing as cameos or just as an assisting NPC.

By the time Kirby Star Allies came upon, Bandana Dee was already popular and had enough plot significance to be friends with Lirby that he is now considered to be part of the main Kirby gang.

To be honest I’m overall neutral on this, but back in 2015-2016 Bandana Dee was practically everywhere in terms of appearances, from playable character to just an NPC. Luckily for Bandana Dee, he was popular enough to be part of the main crew by the time Star Allies was in development.

Aside from that at least he has a spear, which at least makes him stand out.

Also, please compare Bandana Dee to Captain Toad, they the both most comparable comparison, being generic characters turned into unique characters.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Nightmare in Dreamland also has a Meta Knight mode

And Kirby Superstar has Ultra Meta Nightmare Ultra

Did you not read the last sentence of my post? Of course Meta Knight used to be a more prominent character than Bandanna Dee when he only ever appeared as a competitor in a minigame from Kirby Super Star. My argument is that Bandanna Dee has overtaken Meta Knight since Dee became a mainstay in the franchise. Bringing Meta Knight modes in from those past games have nothing to do with my argument.

Edit: Nevermind, Zero Soul cleared it up.

 

[Zerp]

Where was that said? Nothing I replied to said "after" at all

He said "I'm not counting anything prior to Return to Dreamland because I said in my original post that Bandanna Dee has overtaken Meta Knight since he bcame a mainstay in the franchise. Meta is still an important character but he hasn't been quite as relevant as he was in past games."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Because King K. Rool is a completely original character that debuted in a major role. The only one of these two that has a connection to another character is Mario and we've already seen multiple interpretations of the same character.

In other words, neither of these characters are copy-pastes of generic enemies, albeit with different clothing or weaponry.

You're just digging a hole here.

K.Rool is just Klung or whatever the fat one is called but with an eye infection and a crown. K.Rool confirmed generic enemy guys

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Have your spin offs. Bandana dee didn't even get an amiibo.

Just regular Waddle Dee

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Toad was a specific character in various games too. Captain Toad is another specific character who is the same race. The generic Toad race was active before the main Toad was, of course. It's just there was no real name difference between the main Toad and the generic species. So... again, just like Pokemon anyway. Same difference, really. So it's not really all that comparable to the Waddle Dee/Bandanna Dee situation since Toad, the Toad Race, and Captain Toad are different people to begin with. In addition, a specific Waddle Dee donned the costume when he became more prominent. Again, a complete difference here.

Bandanna Dee overall became his own unique character(whereas the Waddle Dee race are quite separated as is). Speaking of, is the Waddle Dee in Kirby 64's actual main game the same person who became Bandanna Dee? Or is that one unrelated?

 

[RandomAce]

K.Rool is just Klung or whatever the fat one is called but with an eye infection and a crown. K.Rool confirmed generic enemy guys

That’s... not a good analogy to make.

No offense, but King K. Rool has a more distinct design compared to the Kremlings than Bandana Dee is to Waddle Dee.

I’m not on anyone’s side but TheLastJinjo is right with this particular bit.

 

[Opossum]

I'm dying waiting for the update so here's another game while we pray for the new track to tide us over for the week.

Pick your favorite newcomers you want based on their color (main or secondary color)! My list:
Red - Ashley
Blue - Bandana Dee
Green - Linkle
Yellow - Zeraora
Purple - Hilda (LBW)
Orange - Goku Infernape
White - Amaterasu or 2B
Black - Shadow
Brown - Sora Just Monika
Pink - Lightning (FFXIII), Poison (Street Fighter) or Susie (Kirby) [really reached for these]

Red - Henry Fleming
Orange - Crash
Yellow - Ribombee (RIP Starfy)
Green - Decidueye
Blue - Chrom
Purple - Chandelure (RIP Waluigi)
Pink - UHHHHHHHHH...Mae or a shiny Qwilfish I guess?
Brown - Muddy Mole
White - Celica
Black - Chorus Kids (really pushing the definition of secondary color lol)

 

[Zerp]

Bandanna Dee overall became his own unique character(whereas the Waddle Dee race are quite separated as is). Speaking of, is the Waddle Dee in Kirby 64's actual main game the same person who became Bandanna Dee? Or is that one unrelated?

We don't know, it's never been addressed, he might be, he might not be.
I think he is but thats baseless, who knows, we might get to see in the Kirby 64 levels Star Allies is bringing though lol

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Speaking of, is the Waddle Dee in Kirby 64's actual main game the same person who became Bandanna Dee? Or is that one unrelated?

I've always wondered that myself. Someone should really ask the Kirby developers that next time they're doing a Q&A.