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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Ever since Brawl made the Super Mushroom increase a fighter's damage multiplier, it definitely made certain Final Smashes feel inferior. Bowser practically gets better results with a Super Mushroom than with a Smash Ball, and yet even when set to 1.7x-size, Bowser is still shorter than Giga Bowser.

Basically, Brawl, along with Smash 3DS / Wii U, has gone by the logic that bigger hits harder. And since Giga Bowser is unaffected by size changing items, you'd think that he'd pack a bigger punch than a Bowser who's set to 2.4x-size by the Lightning item.
 

Opossum

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Ever since Brawl made the Super Mushroom increase a fighter's damage multiplier, it definitely made certain Final Smashes feel inferior. Bowser practically gets better results with a Super Mushroom than with a Smash Ball, and yet even when set to 1.7x-size, Bowser is still shorter than Giga Bowser.

Basically, Brawl, along with Smash 3DS / Wii U, has gone by the logic that bigger hits harder. And since Giga Bowser is unaffected by size changing items, you'd think that he'd pack a bigger punch than a Bowser who's set to 2.4x-size by the Lightning item.
I feel like you bring up the Giga Bowser thing a lot.
 
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That part of Mario Party 4 was honestly a great gimmick too. Heck, wasn't that before they were introduced into the regular Mario games by name itself? Super Mushroom was beforehand.
Huh, I forgot "Mega Mushrooms" existed in Mario Party 4. So less than a decade, then. :p
 

PsychoJosh

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It's a myth because Sakurai never treated it like a rule or even a guideline. He treated it as a "bonus" to the situation. Having a Nintendo appearance doesn't make it easy for Sakurai to think they're deserving, it just helps get the companies to cooperate. He looks at a character for their own merits, not what systems they were on. Other companies are different, but it's not a requirement that Sakurai clearly cares about. He just knows that when you try to put an exclusive character from another company's system onto Smash itself, you're going to be battling a lot of licensing. He already had a lot of trouble getting stuff to license with FFVII content, barely getting two costumes, two songs, 1 stage, and 2 unique Cloud designs. With barely any references. It wasn't easy as is.
This just sounds like your personal interpretation of things more than anything.

So far all evidence points to the fact that it is an ironclad rule regardless of the exact reasoning behind it (the things you talk about, like "getting the companies to cooperate" or whatever are just reasons for the rule itself being in place, and don't really do anything to contradict it). No character has broken this rule. Until a character gets in that doesn't follow this rule, there is no reason to believe it isn't a rule. If and when we get a character in Smash that has never truly appeared on a Nintendo system, like Master Chief, Marcus Fenix, Kratos or Blinx the Time Sweeper, then and ONLY then I'll believe you. Until that day however, you are wrong.
 

Schnee117

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Reminder that Sakurai's stance is that he "Might have had misgivings" if Cloud had no appearances on a Nintendo system.

"Might" in this context would be:
"expressing a possibility based on an unfulfilled condition."

In regards to "It Might be somewhat of a courtesy" to have been on a Nintendo system the word "might" is as follows:
"used to express possibility or make a suggestion."

There's nothing concrete about requiring a Nintendo appearance.

 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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This just sounds like your personal interpretation of things more than anything.

So far all evidence points to the fact that it is an ironclad rule regardless of the exact reasoning behind it (the things you talk about, like "getting the companies to cooperate" or whatever are just reasons for the rule itself being in place, and don't really do anything to contradict it). No character has broken this rule. Until a character gets in that doesn't follow this rule, there is no reason to believe it isn't a rule. If and when we get a character in Smash that has never truly appeared on a Nintendo system, like Master Chief, Marcus Fenix, Kratos or Blinx the Time Sweeper, then and ONLY then I'll believe you. Until that day however, you are wrong.
That's not how evidence works in cases like this. To prove it's ironclad, you need to prove that Sakurai will never in any way possibly add someone like Master Chief. But that's kind of impossible as his statements prove completely otherwise.

Now I did very slight misinterpret what the statement meant about "as a courtesy". I am still right that it's not an ironclad rule, because it doesn't even remotely make sense that way. But it means that he has a higher chance of adding a character with an appearance. He takes the appearance into consideration. It does not determine everything, though. Which you seem to be under the impression. Despite him not once implying or suggesting it's the only thing that matters. Obviously, yes, to what we can see with the patterns, and all they legitimately could prove at best, a Nintendo-appeared character is more likely than one without an appearance. But that's as far as it goes.

If you want an ironclad rule, it's 3rd party characters must originate in a video game first. 1st and 2nd party characters can be considered iffy, as some appeared outside of a video game as promotional materials. Most likely, those are clear exceptions to the rule even then. Which makes a lot of sense anyway. Another one is they must at least have a video game appearance to be remotely possible. Also, the ballot implies game origin is way more important than anything else to be eligible.

You haven't even given proper evidence either. You gave a pattern of why it's hard to believe anyone without a Nintendo appearance has a chance. That's more than a reasonable stance to take, but it's just an opinion. His statements contradict the idea of it being a hard rule. In face, his statements show that he's iffy on the situation, with the best and most accurate statement being a "Maybe". It's kind of impossible to have a hard rule when the answer is pretty much Maybe anyway.

It's a hard fact that it's not in any way a hard rule. Being he literally talked about Cloud and said he wasn't sure if he would've added him. That already proves the fact that it isn't the sole determiner. If it was a hard rule, he would've said "No I would not have added him." The evidence and his statements very clear show it's just something he needs to look at as a possible point to their inclusion.

I could put it in many other ways, but overall, ironclad rules have absolutely zero room for alternate analysis or "maybes". It's a hard yes or no. That's what ironclad means. It's pretty blatant that it was not ever ironclad(now, that could change with another director, sure. But this is Sakurai, and he pretty clearly has not made it a hard rule either. Heck, most of his so-called hard rules are just guidelines, with barely any hard rules to begin with. That's not he thinks as a developer. He likes to keep an open mind. Here's a hard rule for you though that actually is true, and the reason is because he made it clear; A character cannot share a costume with another while having different moves. They need to be separated if they have even the remote difference). Paraphrasing, but that's exactly what it means and why even the remote difference required a separation. This is why Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, and Lucina will never be costumes as long as Sakurai is directing. He believes a character's moveset is what makes them a separate playable character, no matter how minute the difference. At best, they can share the same slot, but not the same "body". Mii Fighters are an example of this, being basically akin to how you could select Pokemon Trainer in Brawl.
 
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If you took that first sentence in isolation, you wouldn't even know if it was in reference to Mario or DK tbh. Because it applies to both.
This is especially true now considering how similar BotW and Odyssey are, I'd say.





Take away the Mario aesthetic and what you have is exploring a hub, jumping into different portals, requiring you to revisit the same levels dozens of times to collect hidden objects in different places to progress. Prior to 64, very little of that screamed Mario. If anything, Crash Bandicoot was more similar to past Mario games in concept.
Remove the Mario aesthetic and put a bear and bird instead over the game, and you have Banjo Kazooie. Lol. It's true that Crash was a more similar successor to the core mechanics of 2D platformers. In that vein, so were the Galaxy games and the 3D Land/World games.
 

UserKev

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Could a character take aspects from their appearances in games like Hyrule Warriors, FE Warriors, Pokken, etc. if they are added to Smash? Sure.

Is a character likely to be in Smash because of those games? Nope.
This is why I'm starting to dislike the Smash series, or at least how its managed. In Zelda's case, this should be a completely exception.

I seriously hope Hyrule Warriors becomes beneficial for Zelda in the long run. Get my dude Ghirahim in there. You'd actually give the characters some significance if you just put them in the freakin' game.
 

Opossum

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Honestly I just think "might have had misgivings" was just Sakurai trying to be tactful. To me it felt like he wanted to say "it'll never happen" but worded it more carefully.

If we ever get someone who's never been on a Nintendo console, I'll change my mind. Until then though, I'll take it as a hard no on characters who don't fit that criterion.
 

Diddy Kong

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Have you ever tried Donkey Kong Jungle Beat?

I always wanted to purchase the re-release for the Wii but I never got around to it.

Hopefully, I find it one day.
Yeah I played the original when it was released on the GameCube, Bongo Controllers and all. Eventually sold it, because of the pure disrespect it was towards the DKC franchise. Also, it's not a 3D platformer, more a reinvented Donkey Kong Country, with a combo system. The gameplay was fun, but it shoud've paid more homage to Donkey Kong Country.

Donkey Kong Jungle Beat had Animal Buddies, but not the original ones, they had helper monkeys, no Diddy Kong or whoever Kong and no Kremlings... which was WAY more shocking than nowadays. Instead they had weird enemies that look more home in the Kid Icarus franchise like this:



This might also be the reason why Nintendo EAD doesn't make Donkey Kong games themselves anymore. Though I do wish they tried again. A DKC-inspired Jungle Beat is much better than no Donkey Kong. And am pretty sure they wouldn't make the same mistakes as with Jungle Beat, as DKC Returns by Retro did many times better and they are well aware of it.
 

FalKoopa

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Honestly I just think "might have had misgivings" was just Sakurai trying to be tactful. To me it felt like he wanted to say "it'll never happen" but worded it more carefully.

If we ever get someone who's never been on a Nintendo console, I'll change my mind. Until then though, I'll take it as a hard no on characters who don't fit that criterion.
I'd advise against taking his current stance as unchanging for future games.

A lot of speculation of Smash 4 was based on what Sakurai said during Brawl and those weren't even ambiguous. And look how that turned out.
 
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I'd advise against taking his current stance as unchanging for future games.

A lot of speculation of Smash 4 was based on what Sakurai said during Brawl and those weren't even ambiguous. And look how that turned out.
So is it reasonable to expect Ridley to be in the next game?
 

Opossum

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I'd advise against taking his current stance as unchanging for future games.

A lot of speculation of Smash 4 was based on what Sakurai said during Brawl and those weren't even ambiguous. And look how that turned out.
And like I said, when the day comes that we get a character that didn't appear on a Nintendo system, I'll change my view. Until then though I'll still just see it as corporate doublespeak haha.

It's just one of those things I don't see Sakurai changing his mind about.
 

N3ON

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I agree that it’s entirely plausible Sakurai was merely being tactful, but I think the more pertinent question is who the hell would we even get who’s never been on a Nintendo system before?
 
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This is why I'm starting to dislike the Smash series, or at least how its managed. In Zelda's case, this should be a completely exception.

I seriously hope Hyrule Warriors becomes beneficial for Zelda in the long run. Get my dude Ghirahim in there. You'd actually give the characters some significance if you just put them in the freakin' game.
......even if Hyrule Warriors was influential on a newcomer addition, that wouldn't help Ghirahim in the long run. There would be serious competition, including characters like Lana and Cia who debuted in the game.
 

Blue_Sword_Edge

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As for the whole "must have Nintendo appearance" as a requirement or a fan rule thing, I think I am very lax about it when I abide by it. I do so regardless of which scenario this concept falls under. But, I admit it's not the perfect mindset about it.
 
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I agree that it’s entirely plausible Sakurai was merely being tactful, but I think the more pertinent question is who the hell would we even get who’s never been on a Nintendo system before?
Tracer? Overwatch is huge.
 

Diddy Kong

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......even if Hyrule Warriors was influential on a newcomer addition, that wouldn't help Ghirahim in the long run. There would be serious competition, including characters like Lana and Cia who debuted in the game.
Those characters who in all actuality have ZERO chance of ever re-appearing?? Yeah, those are the exact picks for the "Hyrule Warriors rep". There was a reason support for characters as Impa, Midna, Young Link and certain moveset changes for Ganondorf exploded after Hyrule Warriors was released. It's cause those characters are actually popular. I would say out of all the characters there, that the pick would likely be between Impa and Midna (as a new character anyway). They where already heavily popular before Hyrule Warriors was around.
 

EdwardSponge

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I agree that it’s entirely plausible Sakurai was merely being tactful, but I think the more pertinent question is who the hell would we even get who’s never been on a Nintendo system before?
Always thought Earthworm Jim would be pretty groovy for Smash bros.

Edit: I'm being a Moron, Earthworm Jim HAS been on a Nintendo Console.
 
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The Stoopid Unikorn

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Those characters who in all actuality have ZERO chance of ever re-appearing?? Yeah, those are the exact picks for the "Hyrule Warriors rep". There was a reason support for characters as Impa, Midna, Young Link and certain moveset changes for Ganondorf exploded after Hyrule Warriors was released. It's cause those characters are actually popular. I would say out of all the characters there, that the pick would likely be between Impa and Midna (as a new character anyway). They where already heavily popular before Hyrule Warriors was around.
That's not a fair comparison.

Cia and Lana originated in that game while the others already had years of fandom backing them up.
 
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Those characters who in all actuality have ZERO chance of ever re-appearing?? Yeah, those are the exact picks for the "Hyrule Warriors rep". There was a reason support for characters as Impa, Midna, Young Link and certain moveset changes for Ganondorf exploded after Hyrule Warriors was released. It's cause those characters are actually popular. I would say out of all the characters there, that the pick would likely be between Impa and Midna (as a new character anyway). They where already heavily popular before Hyrule Warriors was around.
>Characters who literally debuted in Hyrule Warriors and were integral to the story.
>Wouldn't be picked to specifically be a "Hyrule Warriors rep".

 

Diddy Kong

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>Characters who literally debuted in Hyrule Warriors and were integral to the story.
>Wouldn't be picked to specifically be a "Hyrule Warriors rep".

Impa was also intergral to the story in many ways, especially early game.

Fact remains, they are third party created and won't ever reappear in another game.

You know this.
 

Luminario

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Impa was also intergral to the story in many ways, especially early game.

Fact remains, they are third party created and won't ever reappear in another game.

You know this.
We have no idea if they'll reappear or not. Lana and Cia can easily be written into a sequel.
I know you really really want Impa, but she's not gonna be from Hyrule Warriors. The specific 'Hyrule Warriors' rep is going to be Lana or Linkle, and they're both incredibly unlikely.
 

Diddy Kong

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We have no idea if they'll reappear or not. Lana and Cia can easily be written into a sequel.
I know you really really want Impa, but she's not gonna be from Hyrule Warriors. The specific 'Hyrule Warriors' rep is going to be Lana or Linkle, and they're both incredibly unlikely.
What about actual ZELDA character from Hyrule Warriors? Wasn't that the point of the whole damn game? :rolleyes:
 

Luminario

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What about actual ZELDA character from Hyrule Warriors? Wasn't that the point of the whole damn game? :rolleyes:
The whole point of a Warriors spin-off is to play as multiple fan favourite characters while being a one man army. Impa isn't going to be a Hyrule Warriors rep because she doesn't come from Hyrule Warriors, that role would go to Lana or Linkle. They're unlikely to take the Impa from a 3rd party Warriors spin-off over her already established ninja concept from multiple mainline games.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Just remember that anyone debuting in Hyrule Warriors is still a Zelda character. It's a Zelda game through and through. It's also a Warriors game too. You can be more than one series, after all. Mario & Sonic games are clearly not one or the other. It's even in the title alone. I don't mind having spin-off only characters, as long as they can be fun and interesting, and still feel like they're the person from the games in some way, as in personality, moveset, costumes, etc.

Lana and Cia are non-canon Zelda characters. Same with Linkle. And Wizro. Etc. Mind you, I'm not against the idea of making HW canon, but I doubt it'd happen, not just because it's not a straight production from a 1st or 2nd party either. It's because the story and character options, who are part of the story is very weird to work with. It also means that if were canon, people would heavily start expecting Linkle in the regular games, and if Aonuma isn't willing to even let Zelda be the protagonist as is(he barely considered it, but mostly wrote it off as "What would Link do?"), it wouldn't change much just because another potential option is there either. It'd be neat if a lot of this changed, though. Linkle would be a great way to have a "female Link" as playable, without actually changing his gender or changing the gameplay. They've done it at least once in the BS Zelda games, which, although not canon whatsoever and just remakes, was a pretty solid concept as it only made it easier for more players to get into.
 

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As far as Hyrule Warriors goes I'd just want to see Shiek and Ganondorf's redesigns take influence from that game and use it in smash switch.
 

PsychoJosh

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I agree that it’s entirely plausible Sakurai was merely being tactful, but I think the more pertinent question is who the hell would we even get who’s never been on a Nintendo system before?
Master Chief would be pretty cool. It'd also be great to see a Team Fortress 2 character like the Heavy.

Ratchet & Clank would be great too.

Always thought Earthworm Jim would be pretty groovy for Smash bros.

Edit: I'm being a Moron, Earthworm Jim HAS been on a Nintendo Console.
Yes he has. And I'd argue that EWJ2 on SNES is still the best version of that game.

By the way, if you support Jim for Smash, consider posting in my support thread for him and giving me feedback on the thread. I tried to work hard on it to make it interesting.
 
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UserKev

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......even if Hyrule Warriors was influential on a newcomer addition, that wouldn't help Ghirahim in the long run. There would be serious competition, including characters like Lana and Cia who debuted in the game.
But still, Ghirahim would be better off in that scenario because right now, he has no chance at all with this
series complicated rules. Ghirahim might as well ascend pass assist trophy status at this point because he can bring something unique.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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But still, Ghirahim would be better off in that scenario because right now, he has no chance at all with this
series complicated rules. Ghirahim might as well ascend pass assist trophy status at this point because he can bring something unique.
The point is that Hyrule Warriors wouldn't really be a reason why. That has its own bigger characters. Ghirahim getting in means the developers need to see a good reason to add him. That includes having a new appearance in a regular Zelda game(which is very unlikely, bar a SS remake, and that's pretty early to do so) and finding a unique moveset.

HW is more likely to give inspiration for a few moves, or that they're interested in the OC's available. Ghirahim's cool, but his chances aren't too high because he's ultimately not the main villain of his game(although he's the driving antagonist of the plot that said and very important, no questioning that), and Sakurai seems keen on having only variations of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf at best. I'd say Wolf Link & Midna as a duo might be the closest chance we have to someone else besides literally the triforce trio(although this is still kind of Link too) just due to the fact it's part of the triforce trio in a sense. Keep in mind we've had 3 different named Links, two different named Zeldas, 1 Ganondorf, and the implications via coding that they were going to make two more Zelda forms, direct clones of Zelda and Sheik.
 

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I'd advise against taking his current stance as unchanging for future games.

A lot of speculation of Smash 4 was based on what Sakurai said during Brawl and those weren't even ambiguous. And look how that turned out.
To be fair, a lot of that came from people being way off the mark and looking at the wrong things.

Remember how many people assumed Toon Link would be gone from Smash 4's roster, or be "replaced" by a newer Link? Turned out he stuck around, because unlike what they thought, he wasn't ever meant to just be lip service to a recent-at-the-time Zelda game. But since it felt like Toon Link was meant to be a flavor of the month, the idea stuck despite evidence that Brawl's roster wasn't chosen that way.

Remember how a decent handful of people expected Mewtwo to "take his slot back" from Lucario? That entire line of thought turned out to be wrong, but it was because Lucario never "replaced" Mewtwo in the first place--he was planned for Brawl, fell short of the final roster, and we had known that for a long time. But since their neutral specials are similar, the idea stuck despite all the concrete evidence that it wasn't true.

It's one of several problems in the Smash community: people tend to stick to whatever they already think is true instead of trying to actually understand the design team's thought processes and what they might be looking for.
 
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