Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Speaking of which, assuming replaced just because of their neutral B always sounded stupid to me.

The only thing their neutral Bs have in common is they can still do continual damage once fully charged, and that's it.

 

[Curious Villager]

I just kind of thought about this, It's probably not much of a big deal from a gameplay perspective but would be neat for an immersion type of perspective, but how about having the characters actually make eye contact with each other this time around? At least whenever their close by to each other, like in games such as Mario Kart and Zelda. I think it would add a bit more in terms of character interaction if they where to actually face each other during battle rather than just staring ahead into an endless void, which is especially noticeable when you have large characters facing smaller ones...

I suppose it might not work as well whenever there are more than two characters fighting, but in that case, they can make it so that they look primarily at whoever is the closest in front of them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But still, Ghirahim would be better off in that scenario because right now, he has no chance at all with this
series complicated rules. Ghirahim might as well ascend pass assist trophy status at this point because he can bring something unique.

I want to play a game.
Take this sentence and replace it with any other assist trophy, see how many it applies to.

 

[Krysco]

Speaking of Assist Tropies, I have a rather obscure want and that's to gave Galacta Knight as an Assist Trophy. I'm a fan of the skin MK got based on him and I like his trophy but I'd love for him to join in on the action and barring some Dark Pit/Lucina/Doc-esque scenario, there's no way he'll ever become playable. Plus he lacks a cape to have MK's down special and he has both hands full so grabbing and holding items would be awkward. Oh and he lacks a voice. But I think he'd be perfect to have as an Assist Trophy, flying around, stabbing players and shooting projectiles at them. Maybe make it so he blocks and nullifies projectiles with his shield.

 

[Deleted member]

Edit: nevermind

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Speaking of which, assuming replaced just because of their neutral B always sounded stupid to me.

The only thing their neutral Bs have in common is they can still do continual damage once fully charged, and that's it.

That isn't in common in Smash 4 itself. Mewtwo's Shadow Ball doesn't having charging damage. They have the shape of the energy ball in common... and I can't remember if their battle stances are similar now? Also, let's be fair, a lot of their ideal design is both tons of energy attacks. You can see similar design cues beyond their single similar move.

But yeah, that was a really bad assumption, and made little sense to begin with.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What can be baffling is how whenever Kirby copies Lucario, his Aura Sphere only deals its normal damage; it's impossible to make it stronger, due to Kirby's lack of aura mechanics.

 

[Krysco]

Unless I'm mistaken, Lucario and Mewtwo are the only characters who maintain a charging stance after their chargeable move reaches its max. Cloud, DK- kay, scratch that, there's Link and the smaller Links who can hold their arrows. Lucario and Mewtwo are the only ones who stay in a charging stance after it reaches max AND can still hold said charge rather than being forced to let it go. Sheik had that feature back in Melee. Doesn't look like any other character can do that. Not Mario or PAC-MAN or R.O.B. or Robin or Samus or Brawl Sheik onwards or WFT or Squirtle in Brawl. Edit: Kirby is of course an exception only if he has Mewtwo or Lucario's power

 

[FalKoopa]

To be fair, a lot of that came from people being way off the mark and looking at the wrong things.

Remember how many people assumed Toon Link would be gone from Smash 4's roster, or be "replaced" by a newer Link? Turned out he stuck around, because unlike what they thought, he wasn't ever meant to just be lip service to a recent-at-the-time Zelda game. But since it felt like Toon Link was meant to be a flavor of the month, the idea stuck despite evidence that Brawl's roster wasn't chosen that way.

Remember how a decent handful of people expected Mewtwo to "take his slot back" from Lucario? That entire line of thought turned out to be wrong, but it was because Lucario never "replaced" Mewtwo in the first place--he was planned for Brawl, fell short of the final roster, and we had known that for a long time. But since their neutral specials are similar, the idea stuck despite all the concrete evidence that it wasn't true.

It's one of several problems in the Smash community: people tend to stick to whatever they already think is true instead of trying to actually understand the design team's thought processes and what they might be looking for.

Don't remind me, haha. I was convinced that he would be removed because *literally* everyone seemed to think so. Sheesh.

Although I was particularly referring to cases where Sakurai officially changed his tune, like Villager.

Also, I remember some of the stuff that were taken as gospel during Smash 4 speculation, especially "Relevancy doesn't matter", because it seems it very much did for Smash 4.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Don't remind me, haha. I was convinced that he would be removed because *literally* everyone seemed to think so. Sheesh.

Although I was particularly referring to cases where Sakurai officially changed his tune, like villager.

Also, I remember some of the stuff that were taken as gospel during Smash 4 speculation, especially "Relevancy doesn't matter", because it seems it very much did for Smash 4.

It also helps that Sakurai outright admitted that relevancy plays a role at times. And most of that also relates to how easy it is to use the latest designs when you're developing Smash during the development periods of other games. Hence, it's hard to return Wolf when he doesn't have the same popularity as Falco, and his only game coming out was delayed severely. Hence, it's easy to see why he wasn't DLC either. Not as a strict promotion of the game so much as the only time he'd be relevant for DLC.

That's why he's such an interesting director. He doesn't take a hard stance, but a soft stance and is willing to adapt to new information/change his mind. Like, there's only a few things he is pretty blatant about. He wants the characters to originate in video games(for the most part, as they're barely two exceptions on a technical level. R.O.B. was just as much of a toy as part of a game. And Lucario actually debuted in the movie first).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

for the most part, as they're barely two exceptions on a technical level. R.O.B. was just as much of a toy as part of a game. And Lucario actually debuted in the movie first

There was also Roy, who technically appeared in Melee before his own game was released, and the Miis, who debuted as avatars (yes, they're in some games, but they're still basically avatars)

As for R.O.B., I feel like he can be seen as an exception because he's a peripheral that also appeared in some games (notably some cameos in several games and playable in Mario Kart DS).

But then again, maybe the "must originate from a video game" rule is only applied for third-parties?

 

[Bowserlick]

Is their anyway to get a third Roy into Smash? The Roy Trifecta needs to be completed.

Am I now part of a Roy bandwagon?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Unless I'm mistaken, Lucario and Mewtwo are the only characters who maintain a charging stance after their chargeable move reaches its max. Cloud, DK- kay, scratch that, there's Link and the smaller Links who can hold their arrows. Lucario and Mewtwo are the only ones who stay in a charging stance after it reaches max AND can still hold said charge rather than being forced to let it go. Sheik had that feature back in Melee. Doesn't look like any other character can do that. Not Mario or PAC-MAN or R.O.B. or Robin or Samus or Brawl Sheik onwards or WFT or Squirtle in Brawl. Edit: Kirby is of course an exception only if he has Mewtwo or Lucario's power

King Dedede can also hold a full charge for his Jet Hammer, but he does take damage if he holds the full charge for too long.

 

[Krysco]

King Dedede can also hold a full charge for his Jet Hammer, but he does take damage if he holds the full charge for too long.

Ah, true. Would be in a similar category to Link then since he can't save the charge for later. For that matter, Kirby gets the exact same thing regardless of copy ability thanks to his side b.

 

[Bowserlick]

I think King DeDeDe should move faster when he is charging his Jet Hammer.

 

[Deleted member]

But then again, maybe the "must originate from a video game" rule is only applied for third-parties?

Technically, there isn't a "rule" about characters needing to originate from a video game. That's merely a logical interpretation of what was actually said.

All that's been literally said is that "The participation of manga characters is not possible." back in Brawl, with Sakurai reaffirming this when mentioning how he gets requests for characters like Goku or SpongeBob in an interview during the DLC period of Smash 4, stating that they were "impossible".

As for why that is, Sakurai's reasoning for excluding James Bond in Melee could possibly explain it.
One of the reasons he listed was that since Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was based on a movie, getting the rights for James Bond would be a problem.
So the main issue is that characters that are originally from other forms of media have much more legal hurdles to jump through than your standard guest, making them "impossible" for Smash.

So it's not a hard rule, but the odds of there being a non-video game character that is relatively easy to get the rights for AND is one that both Nintendo and the company the character's rights belong to wants to have in Smash (and said company is willing to let Sakurai or whoever to take creative liberties) AND carries gaming history (which means more than just "has a game(s)") are so low that we shouldn't expect it to ever happen.

The best bet IMO if one were to happen would be the Ninja Turtles, especially if the holders of the IP were willing to let them be in Injustice 2.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Again, like the "must have appeared on a Nintendo console" rule, this is all just arguing semantics, and trying to offer up alternative explanations for Sakurai being vague.

I do think the "must have originated from a video game" rule is likewise a hard rule. Not merely because of copyright reasons, but because it's understood that Smash is first and foremost supposed to be a celebration of video games. Characters and stages are carefully considered, and gameplay from their respective series is frequently considered to be re-contextualized in Smash wherever possible, like the summons in the Midgar stage. Having characters in Smash that originate from other forms of media would completely undermine this aspect of it. So it's not just about the legal considerations alone, although that by itself is enough of a deterrent to keep non-video game characters out. It's also about the image that Smash has constructed for itself by being a tribute to games.

There's also the point that allowing non-game characters would cheapen the game by making companies see it just a vehicle for advertising, and development of the game would end up being a bidding war between companies for who gets to advertise their newest movie/show/product with Smash. It'd be awful to see DLC of Avengers or DC Comics characters forced into Smash every time a new movie comes out.

I think Sakurai just understands that allowing non-game characters into Smash would be opening pandora's box. Just don't do it.

 

[L0rd Mace]

Really hoping that Min Min will make it if there is a smash 5.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Really hoping that Min Min will make it if there is a smash 5.

Not gonna happen.

The game itself makes it pretty clear that if any ARMS character makes it in Smash, it's gonna be Spring Man.

I mean...

• He was one of the first characters revealed
• He gets a lot of focus in the boxart, even if said focus has him get punched in the face by Ribbon Girl
• He has both an evil version (Springtron) and a semi-clone (Max Brass)

He's basically the Ryu of ARMS.

 

[PsychoJosh]

If an ARMS character gets in it's most likely just going to be a template character with different variations, like Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings.

I'm thinking it'll be Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Min Min/Ninjara/Kid Cobra, mainly because those five seem like they would share an animation rig easier. I don't think Twintelle or Master Mummy would be selectable in this template since they would require different animations due to their body types.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

If an ARMS character gets in it's most likely just going to be a template character with different variations, like Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings.

I'm thinking it'll Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Ninjara/Kid Cobra, mainly because those four seem like they would share an animation rig easier.

I doubt this would happen.

Junior and the Koopalings at least had the Clown Car to justify them being the same character in Smash without ruining their character. Olimar and Alph also worked because the bulk of the moveset were the Pikmins, not them.

The ARMS characters don't have that at all and would likely end up in a Lucina/Dark Pit scenario because the little unique things each of them have would be enough to justify each being their own character.

 

[Kirbeh]

I could see Springtron being a skin for Spring Man at least, but otherwise I think we'd just get Spring Man on his own with Ribbon as a likely candidate for a semi/clone if development time allows for it.

 

[Luminario]

oooh the ARMS discussion again?

Sure, Spring Man's the logical choice, but that's in the situation of choosing the character simply because he's the 'main guy' and it doesn't matter who gets in, they'll all be unique. If they also consider popularity along with potential though, there's at least 4 characters that clearly outshine Spring Man in both.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Technically, there isn't a "rule" about characters needing to originate from a video game. That's merely a logical interpretation of what was actually said.

The closest thing we had was the Ballot's own rules, but that's kind of it. And true. I mean, you can stretch it a bit to some genre, mostly because Manga is adapted into Anime, and Comics and Cartoons are equivalents to Manga and Anime. Sakurai did laugh at Spongebob as an idea, so that makes it likely he just meant animation stuff too. The closest we probably ever would get is either a character who is made for a game but promoted in a movie again(like Lucario) or possibly live action, but I honestly doubt the latter, as it's hard to license and the games are supposed to be unrealistic to a degree.

There was also Roy, who technically appeared in Melee before his own game was released, and the Miis, who debuted as avatars (yes, they're in some games, but they're still basically avatars)

As for R.O.B., I feel like he can be seen as an exception because he's a peripheral that also appeared in some games (notably some cameos in several games and playable in Mario Kart DS).

But then again, maybe the "must originate from a video game" rule is only applied for third-parties?

The video game thing was actually made for 3rd parties. As I said above, the ballot may suggest that it applies all around. But it's not nearly that clear. Miis are a good example, but they were also turned into a Smash original like Giga Bowser so it isn't just the regular ones. Although in this particular context, the purpose of them is obviously in a video game first. And appearing solely on the system with avatars you create would count technically as a game overall. Built-in game where you can create your own characters, to improve other games.

R.O.B.'s appearance in games other than his own don't make him an exception. That's cause he was meant for video games and debuted as both. The toy and games were released at the same time. He's not really that different from Lucario, bar the fact there was no time between game and toy debut. Lucario had a difference in his movie debut and his game debut. Doesn't change much of anything since the bigger point being made isn't just the origins, but what they were designed for as well. Lucario wasn't designed just to be some anime-only character(like most of the humans), but a regular Pokemon with easy ideas to promote, including a movie to help sell him as a huge reason to get the Diamond/Pearl games.

Roy's an interesting point; he did debut in a game first. Which is Melee. He didn't debut in something other than a game as is. The reason he's not a technical exception is the only point was "debuting in a game first". He's more like an oddball of that particular statement. Doesn't contradict it or really help it.

The James Bond point showed that Sakurai was considering 3rd party non-game characters at some point. Probably not anymore. But as Golden said, the issues were pretty big. Not the sole fact he wasn't in a game first, but much more than that. Realistic actors, licensing issues, making his moveset work in a family-friendly fighting game(Melee wasn't as hardcore as Brawl, and still much more cartoony), and possibly more he didn't speak on.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think King DeDeDe should move faster when he is charging his Jet Hammer.

There has to be restrictions that keep that attack from being too overpowered though.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

So it's not a hard rule, but the odds of there being a non-video game character that is relatively easy to get the rights for AND is one that both Nintendo and the company the character's rights belong to wants to have in Smash (and said company is willing to let Sakurai or whoever to take creative liberties) AND carries gaming history (which means more than just "has a game(s)") are so low that we shouldn't expect it to ever happen.

The James Bond point showed that Sakurai was considering 3rd party non-game characters at some point. Probably not anymore. But as Golden said, the issues were pretty big. Not the sole fact he wasn't in a game first, but much more than that. Realistic actors, licensing issues, making his moveset work in a family-friendly fighting game(Melee wasn't as hardcore as Brawl, and still much more cartoony), and possibly more he didn't speak on.

I imagine the licensing costs for James Bond would be at an all time high. Props to whoever gets the song reference.

The game itself makes it pretty clear that if any ARMS character makes it in Smash, it's gonna be Spring Man.

As for characters from ARMS, I don't know who could get in for sure. What I do know is ARMS has a fair shot getting a character in Super Smash Bros. since it is one of the noticeable Nintendo titles for the Switch.

 

[Aurane]

The only ARMS character we need is Helix. No need for Springs and Ribbons- Flubber covers all grounds and is a cherished character of ARMS no matter what the faulty fanbase thinks.

 

[N3ON]

... Noctis?

I really wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Even if FFXV does show up on the Switch.
Edit: Though fwiw I feel Noctis probably will make a Nintendo appearance at some point in some capacity. Most FF characters have.

Tracer? Overwatch is huge.

Of all the responses I'd agree this is the most possible, but still, given she's a character that's never been on a Nintendo system with minor demand for a Smash inclusion from a single-game series that's also never been on a Nintendo system, from a western dev that has had a very limited history with Nintendo, I just don't see the motivation being there for Nintendo. I suppose if Blizzard reached out that'd be another thing, but tbh I don't see that happening either.

Obv none of those factors by themselves is damning but cumulatively I don't think it paints an overly plausible situation.

Master Chief would be pretty cool. It'd also be great to see a Team Fortress 2 character like the Heavy.

Ratchet & Clank would be great too.

I feel like this is conflating who would actually get included with who would just be cool. Unless that's the point.

If that's the case I'd really like to see 2B.

 

[1999]

Please more square enix characters

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please more square enix characters

Any ones in particular of interest to you?

On another mod, I have been modded for this section~

 

[1999]

Any ones in particular of interest to you?

On another mod, I have been modded for this section~

Sora from Kingdom Hearts would be pretty dope, him already having been on an nintendo console would help his chances. Chrono too, that would be god like of nintendo to do. Possibly some old FF characters from the NES & SNES FF games, I'm sure people would love that.

 

[N3ON]

To be fair, a lot of that came from people being way off the mark and looking at the wrong things.

Remember how many people assumed Toon Link would be gone from Smash 4's roster, or be "replaced" by a newer Link? Turned out he stuck around, because unlike what they thought, he wasn't ever meant to just be lip service to a recent-at-the-time Zelda game. But since it felt like Toon Link was meant to be a flavor of the month, the idea stuck despite evidence that Brawl's roster wasn't chosen that way.

Remember how a decent handful of people expected Mewtwo to "take his slot back" from Lucario? That entire line of thought turned out to be wrong, but it was because Lucario never "replaced" Mewtwo in the first place--he was planned for Brawl, fell short of the final roster, and we had known that for a long time. But since their neutral specials are similar, the idea stuck despite all the concrete evidence that it wasn't true.

It's one of several problems in the Smash community: people tend to stick to whatever they already think is true instead of trying to actually understand the design team's thought processes and what they might be looking for.

That's quite easy to say in retrospect, and while I agree some stuff did seem fallacious from the get-go, like the notion that Lucario replaced Mewtwo, trends and mentality don't always become clear until after the fact. There are a plethora of characters that were added (or cut) to the roster that prior to all this, even the most rational and knowledgeable speculators would've dismissed. Or at least not anticipated to any serious degree.

For instance, people were not entirely sold on Toon Link returning because a) I don't believe the "child Link is a necessity" comment was a thing at the time, b) because he was a low priority addition to Brawl (which really does undercut how much of a "necessity" the second Link really is - seems like only in Smash 4 was child Link actually a priority) and c) there was precedent of the last-minute Link clone not making it back. Looking back, sure it seems like a no-brainer now, but given what we were working with then... I believe many (but certainly not all) of the ideologies of the time were understandable.

People are going to make totally rational errors in predicting the roster going forward as well. Right now people will argue for pretty much any character on the roster sticking around, but obviously they're not all going to. Including the unique ones.

If an ARMS character gets in it's most likely just going to be a template character with different variations, like Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings.

I'm thinking it'll be Spring Man/Ribbon Girl/Min Min/Ninjara/Kid Cobra, mainly because those five seem like they would share an animation rig easier. I don't think Twintelle or Master Mummy would be selectable in this template since they would require different animations due to their body types.

I dunno why people seem so enamoured with this idea. It's really selling all the characters short cramming them into a single slot. Just because they all have extending arms doesn't mean that's the extent of their uniqueness.

It's like getting Ryu, Ken, Akuma, Sakura, Dan, etc. all under the same slot. Or like Marth, Ike, Roy, Eliwood, Chrom, Lucina, Sigurd, Seliph, Leaf etc.

I get Ribbon Girl or something as an alt, but I don't get the rush in filling the spot with as many characters as possible, it's not a Koopaling deal where they come in a set of seven. Just have patience and more ARMS characters could be added in the future...

Please more square enix characters

I agree.

I also get the feeling SE is a bit more austere in lending out their characters, with a budget that reflects that. Especially when it's not largely for promotional purposes.

 

[1999]

I also get the feeling SE is a bit more austere in lending out their characters, with a budget that reflects that. Especially when it's not largely for promotional purposes.

Exactly, I feel like it would be fanservice at this point for them to do it .

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sora from Kingdom Hearts would be pretty dope, him already having been on an nintendo console would help his chances. Chrono too, that would be god like of nintendo to do. Possibly some old FF characters from the NES & SNES FF games, I'm sure people would love that.

Sounds cool~

My opinion on ARMS alts is entirely a "only if you can decently fit them in without ruining them." Even if it was just a Wii Fit Trainer or Robin scenario with two forms and different colors per each, that seems fine. But blatantly some couldn't pull this off. Ribbon Girl and Spring Man share a reasonable body shape, so it could be possible. I do agree that it would work a bit better if there were 8 fighters with a similar enough build that could be turned into one mega moveset incorporating their gimmicks into something. I don't think anything beyond a Spring Man/Ribbon Girl alt scenario would happen, if that, though.

 

[N3ON]

Exactly, I feel like it would be fanservice at this point for them to do it .

Well most of Smash is fan service, probably most of all the third-parties, but SE is still gonna want that money.

I'd love to see more SE characters though. Neku? Crono? 2B? One that actually has a chance? Sign me up!

 

[A Distant Demon]

If you ask me, SE has an insane amount of characters that would fit in smash.

Probably has something to do with the fact they are Japanese, but Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Dragon Quest, Bravely Default, Chrono Trigger all have characters that would fit smash like a glove.

Hell, even the recent Nier Automata would probably fit too.


I just want Sora or Edea Lee in smash, man

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This isn't even getting into some of the more Western oriented SE series like Hitman or Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft would be a pretty big deal.

 

[N3ON]

This isn't even getting into some of the more Western oriented SE series like Hitman or Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft would be a pretty big deal.

I heard SE no longer holds the rights to Hitman. I think the dev bought itself out of Square's ownership along with its IPs.

That said, IPs like Tomb Raider and Deus Ex are still with Square, and rather noteworthy.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Since we are circlejerking the same arguements anyway... I'll just post whatever.

Golden Sun was and still is an amazing gaming franchise that's shamefully neglected, this hurts Isaac's chances considerably. I wish Camelot would do other stuff than making the same Mario Tennis game over and over again with slightly updated graphics. They also wanted to make a sequel to DK64. Why aren't these guys funded more?

King K.Rool is my favorite semi-realistic pipe dream. Yes I said it. I don't have much faith in him, unless he really outrightely won the ballot, meaning being at least Top 3 to 5 in every area which voted. Which I think is unlikely. He can only be saved by a new Donkey Kong game featuring him as final boss, and it has to fit in the timeframe when Smash is in development and still considering adding characters.

The Zelda roster is still extremely lame and had the priorities all wrong by only adressing Zelda and Sheik's split up in Smash 4, in which Sheik got far more attention even. Terrible choice, and I really hope to see this changed one day. If Zelda cannot get a newcomer at this point, a lot is lost for excisting franchises not named Mario, Pokemon or Fire Emblem. At least revamp what is needed. Zelda is a popular Nintendo franchise and Nintendo should show it. There was a huge batch of newcomers in Melee, but they neglected the franchise afterwards. Hyrule Warriors shows what they need to do with the franchise, hope they take directions from it. Also add Impa because it makes sense.

I really don't feel much for new retro additions outside of Takamaru or Balloon Fighter. They alone seem iconic enough and would make a fun addition. Excite Biker too maybe, out of iconic status, but I do not want him or anything.

Dixie Kong is a must-have in this new roster otherwise it'd be a damn fraud. I would skip another Smash game for her exclusion, even if I would play Diddy at least 10 times more than any other character anyway.

There's a lack of heavy weight fighters and I do not see them changing this ever and it's upsetting. The best choice yet is K.Rool, but I guess a ARMS fighter could be more on the heavy side as well (around ROB or Wario weight).

I don't want too many new 3rd party characters or something not videogame related. Smash 4 has the biggest gaming icons already in with the 3rd parties, they don't NEED to expand on it.

 

[Staarih]

For ARMS characters, I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like the one who is most popular, or most used, or has most wins or whatnot changes all the time. Spring Man feels like a solid choice overall, being the face of the series, and it's not like he has no potential - he has, well, spring arms, the major point of ARMS. Ribbon Girl is pretty much the female equivalent of him, so I'll take her as an alt, but beyond that, the other characters are too distinctive to be shoved into one, same slot.

I really should get back into ARMS again, Misango looks pretty cool and I've totally missed out on Lola Pop as well...