Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, I'd like to see what they could do with Dr. Mario to test out a new moveset for Mario. The thing is, Mario has evolved without overhauling him to the point that you can barely feel who he is anymore. Using Dr. Mario, who already uses a move that doesn't 100% fit him(his spin, and he hasn't done anything simliar in the games, it's just better than the F.L.U.D.D., since that's a specific thing, not a generic move that Mario used in multiple games, and great for those who prefer Mario's old moveset).

Another idea is just make another Mario or a new Smash mechanic, akin to what Marvel VS Capcom done. An actual alternate moveset chosen could be fun. This is more like custom moves, mind you, and doesn't need a unique slot. Just press L or R to change between movesets. Respectively, I feel that just having different moves doesn't constitute a different slot in itself. It should at least be an established alternate form. Like how Dr. Mario is. You could even try to justify that for Wario, but he works better with the first idea(alternate moveset) and other than some of the abilities, Wario from Wario Land and Wario from WarioWare are not that different. The personalities are pretty much the same, and it's not like either is a spin-off of eachother. They're connected series. Dr. Mario is a spin-off puzzle series, not related at all to the regular Mario games. Or even the various other spin-offs.

That said, I'd be fine with Dr. Mario being an alternate moveset too if that could work out. But I think Mario having a 3rd moveset overall could be fun. Alternatively, you could have Paper Mario for two more movesets. One to overhaul regular Mario, being based upon his Mario & Luigi games, and the other being Paper Mario himself. The key thing is that they would share the same model overall, just one being flattened. Or at least enough that they feel like they could be "clones", in a sense.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Inb4 someone says "We need Cappy move for Mario because Odyssey's relevant".

Having such a thing would be too much work too.

Better than making Pauline playable because "Odyssey".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Inb4 someone says "We need Cappy move for Mario because Odyssey's relevant".

Having such a thing would be too much work too.

Better than making Pauline playable because "Odyssey".

Although making her a retro pick would be fine. As long as it has a fun moveset, maybe based around Donkey Kong Arcade~

Anyway, Cappy is kind of ridiculous to make work, but him having a costume and perhaps a taunt is not a bad idea. I don't think Cappy should be ignored, but a moveset overhaul is a lot of work for a gimmick that translates poorly for Smash. Heck, have Kirby's Mario Hat be Cappy instead. There's fun ways to make it show up outside of just a moveset overhaul~

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Before transforming characters got scrapped, I had the idea of ''costume Mario'' who would be separate from regular Mario and have three forms (cycled with down-b): Tanooki Mario who is best in the air, Hammer Mario who is best on the ground, and Frog Mario who is a balance.

That alternate movesets idea though is absolutely amazing

 

[EdwardSponge]

Although making her a retro pick would be fine. As long as it has a fun moveset, maybe based around Donkey Kong Arcade~

Neutral B - Stand still
Side B - Stand still and create a heart between you and opponent
Down B - Get kidnapped
Up B - Get mistaken for Peach.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Neutral B - Stand still
Side B - Stand still and create a heart between you and opponent
Down B - Get kidnapped
Up B - Get mistaken for Peach.

And her animations are based on only two single frames

 

[Luminario]

Neutral B - Stand still
Side B - Stand still and create a heart between you and opponent
Down B - Get kidnapped
Up B - Get mistaken for Peach.

Pauline doesn't deserve this slander. let her LIVE D:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Although Cranky Kong is technically the Arcade DK, he already has modern stuff to draw from and is fairly relevant on his own merits.

Pauline is mostly notable for her original role, and has a fun role in a later Mario game. My thoughts is various things like using the barrels, the hammer, the oil barrels and fire... heck, she could even use the girders that you stand on as weapons. The idea is to take her heritage as the original damsel in distress, but also what she could do with the items from the series. Problem is, I don't think this alone is enough. It feels too shoehorned with that only. It's easy to make a quick moveset, but it's hard to make it interesting. Being someone who has made countless movesets with simplicity, and no gimmick, I know from experience about this. The ones I made? Not really all that interesting, it just works balanced-wise at best. The most interesting ones I made were for two impossible characters, one of my own(White Air Knight), which had a few neat things, but it probably didn't flow well for balance, and Red-Eyes Black Dragon, who technically had a gimmick of applying any Item as some kind of transformation or weapon for him. Like a unique metal palette for the Metal Cap, Dragon Claws with unique gameplay for the Beam Sword, etc(this was during Brawl, so some items didn't exist, like the alternate various types of swords).

Although honestly, I'd like to see an item-related gimmick. Normally I'd say do that with Pichu, but he has a gimmick already, a poor one, but one nonetheless. Hmm... who could essentially change their shape/tactics with items as a fun gimmick... Daisy as a callback to Mario Land, and something that is actually related to her unique appearance in a platformer? Kind of feels too made-up, though.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Although Cranky Kong is technically the Arcade DK, he already has modern stuff to draw from and is fairly relevant on his own merits.

Pauline is mostly notable for his original role, and has a fun role in a later Mario game. My thoughts is various things like using the barrels, the hammer, the oil barrels and fire... heck, she could even use the girders that you stand on as weapons. The idea is to take her heritage as the original damsel in distress, but also what she could do with the items from the series. Problem is, I don't think this alone is enough. It feels too shoehorned with that only. It's easy to make a quick moveset, but it's hard to make it interesting. Being someone who has made countless movesets with simplicity, and no gimmick, I know from experience about this. The ones I made? Not really all that interesting, it just works balanced-wise at best. The most interesting ones I made were for two impossible characters, one of my own(White Air Knight), which had a few neat things, but it probably didn't flow well for balance, and Red-Eyes Black Dragon, who technically had a gimmick of applying any Item as some kind of transformation or weapon for him. Like a unique metal palette for the Metal Cap, Dragon Claws with unique gameplay for the Beam Sword, etc(this was during Brawl, so some items didn't exist, like the alternate various types of swords).

Although honestly, I'd like to see an item-related gimmick. Normally I'd say do that with Pichu, but he has a gimmick already, a poor one, but one nonetheless. Hmm... who could essentially change their shape/tactics with items as a fun gimmick... Daisy as a callback to Mario Land, and something that is actually related to her unique appearance in a platformer? Kind of feels too made-up, though.

You might want to change that in a bit.

 

[EdwardSponge]

You might want to change that in a bit.

I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to decipher what this cryptic and vague post is meant to mean.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to decipher what this cryptic and vague post is meant to mean.

Look for a bolded word in post 8849's quote

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to decipher what this cryptic and vague post is meant to mean.

Look at the quoted post and what bolded. Whoops on my part. Already fixed it, but that's a hilarious typo.

...Fitting considering I'm talking about her using some of classic DK's moves, so...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

People preach about canon but rarely seem to bring up the gameplay issues all these "correct moves" could bring.

I mean it's nice to pay tribute to canon, but liberties need to be taken or we get stupid unappealing stuff or or movesets that are bonkers in a bad way.

Things like Link having kicks is in no way dumb. It's natural and fits the design of his moveset while adding visual flair.

 

[Luminario]

Although Cranky Kong is technically the Arcade DK, he already has modern stuff to draw from and is fairly relevant on his own merits.

Pauline is mostly notable for her original role, and has a fun role in a later Mario game. My thoughts is various things like using the barrels, the hammer, the oil barrels and fire... heck, she could even use the girders that you stand on as weapons. The idea is to take her heritage as the original damsel in distress, but also what she could do with the items from the series. Problem is, I don't think this alone is enough. It feels too shoehorned with that only. It's easy to make a quick moveset, but it's hard to make it interesting.

I'm still rooting for Minis to be a part of Pauline's moveset. They're a main part of the Mario vs DK series which has also kept her relevant all these years, and she canonically knows what they're capable of when she staged her own kidnapping to test their abilities. The biggest problems with that though is that she's never actually used them herself and they're only associated with her because they all appear in the same game, so they only work if the devs really want her in Smash. She's still got the girders, girder lifts, fireballs and stuff to work with along with her purse, umbrella and hat so that's something.

Although honestly, I'd like to see an item-related gimmick. Normally I'd say do that with Pichu, but he has a gimmick already, a poor one, but one nonetheless. Hmm... who could essentially change their shape/tactics with items as a fun gimmick... Daisy as a callback to Mario Land, and something that is actually related to her unique appearance in a platformer? Kind of feels too made-up, though.

I don't think we'll really get an item-related gimmick where they change their playstyle depending on what they're holding, but I'd like to see an alchemist/apothecary type character that takes projectiles and items and creates potions and stuff out of them to throw with various effects, or creates items on the battlefield to use (nothing too OP like summoning a Home Run Bat, but more like summoning food or an empty capsule. Like, they'll shine in item battles, but they won't be useless on For Glory). If anyone could change depending on items though, it's Kirby swallowing them.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm still rooting for Minis to be a part of Pauline's moveset. They're a main part of the Mario vs DK series which has also kept her relevant all these years, and she canonically knows what they're capable of when she staged her own kidnapping to test their abilities. The biggest problems with that though is that she's never actually used them herself and they're only associated with her because they all appear in the same game, so they only work if the devs really want her in Smash. She's still got the girders, girder lifts, fireballs and stuff to work with along with her purse, umbrella and hat so that's something.

Well, Pauline using Minis isn't that farfetched...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm still rooting for Minis to be a part of Pauline's moveset. They're a main part of the Mario vs DK series which has also kept her relevant all these years, and she canonically knows what they're capable of when she staged her own kidnapping to test their abilities. The biggest problems with that though is that she's never actually used them herself and they're only associated with her because they all appear in the same game, so they only work if the devs really want her in Smash. She's still got the girders, girder lifts, fireballs and stuff to work with along with her purse, umbrella and hat so that's something.

How did I not think of the MInis? Moveset potential baby. Thank you~

I don't think we'll really get an item-related gimmick where they change their playstyle depending on what they're holding, but I'd like to see an alchemist/apothecary type character that takes projectiles and items and creates potions and stuff out of them to throw with various effects, or creates items on the battlefield to use (nothing too OP like summoning a Home Run Bat, but more like summoning food or an empty capsule. Like, they'll shine in item battles, but they won't be useless on For Glory). If anyone could change depending on items though, it's Kirby swallowing them.

True. I mean more not changing the playstyles so much as buffing their normal moves, akin to what I said already. Albeit, based upon the example I was referring to. In some cases, it's cooler looks, like Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon. In others, Dragon Claw, which is effectively the same thing as how the Beam Saber works, changes nothing but their actual physical looks for it. To be clear, I didn't mean change the playstyle, but make it look like a unique approach to using the item. Aesthetics can matter, mind you. Roy's fire moves don't matter at all, it's just neat. But yeah, true, it would be hard to balance that gimmick as well. I think I really described it poorly either. I didn't want a playstyle change, but to actually focus their character on making the items feel unique.

An alchemist sounds good too.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

An alchemist would be interesting but who, out of Nintendo's character library, can do that?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

An alchemist would be interesting but who, out of Nintendo's character library, can do that?

Screw Nintendo's library. Add Plague Knight as the alchemist

 

[Luminario]

Screw Nintendo's library. Add Plague Knight as the alchemist

Plague Knight actually was the inspiration for the gimmick when I was thinking about it.

The only Ninty character I can think of who could be an alchemist would be Ashley. We know she has a cauldron and the first time we meet her she asks us to drag ingredients into it. She even tried to catch Orbulon for her concoction, and that's all in her debut game. If the debuff thing doesn't work out for Ashley, she could easily be re-imagined as an alchemist.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Plague Knight actually was the inspiration for the gimmick when I was thinking about it.

The only Ninty character I can think of who could be an alchemist would be Ashley. We know she has a cauldron and the first time we meet her she asks us to drag ingredients into it. She even tried to catch Orbulon for her concoction, and that's all in her debut game. If the debuff thing doesn't work out for Ashley, she could easily be re-imagined as an alchemist.

Except she's not an alchemist, she's a witch.

 

[Luminario]

Except she's not an alchemist, she's a witch.

I know, a witch with a cauldron who "brews the meanest potions" according to her theme. It's not exactly ideal, she's just the only Ninty character I could think of who was capable of using such a gimmick.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No matter what's the discussion right now. I want to say that the veteran franchises since Smash 64 which franchises in gaming have been deemend as legendary and revolutionary both; the wonderful first party owned gaming franchises everyone knows of if they know Nintendo; Donkey Kong Country and The Legend of Zelda, deserve at least one newcomer and maybe more if there's room.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

No matter what's the discussion right now. I want to say that the those veteran franchises since Smash 64 which franchises in gaming have been deemend as legendary and revolutionary both; the wonderful first party owned gaming franchises everyone knows of if they know Nintendo; Donkey Kong Country and The Legend of Zelda, deserve at least one newcomer and maybe more if there's room.

I don't really think it's a matter of "deserve" anymore. Aside from Donkey Kong, I feel like all the original 10 franchises are well rounded and we'll represented. Donkey Kong is really the only one that 'deserves' another fighter. Zelda I feel is in a really good spot. No need for a new Character.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I don't really think it's a matter of "deserve" anymore. Aside from Donkey Kong, I feel like all the original 10 franchises are well rounded and we'll represented. Donkey Kong is really the only one that 'deserves' another fighter. Zelda I feel is in a really good spot. No need for a new Character.

I have never disagreed with a statement this much in my life, before. Zelda representations is dog****, every character is a variation of the same three characters which is more than dumb for Nintendo's second biggest franchise.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I think people should have came to an agreement that we'll never get a Zelda newcomer. There were many opportunities in past games, but it seems they are tailored towards "The Triforce Trio" as of now. Sure there was Toon Link, but it was clear he was meant to be a Young Link replacement.

It could happen, but it just might not happen.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I have never disagreed with a statement in my life, before. Zelda representations is dog****, every character is a variation of the same three characters which is more than dumb for Nintendo's second biggest franchise.

True, but when every other possible character is either a one-off, like Midna or Ghirahim, or inconsistent between games, like Impa, the franchise is kind of in a weird situation.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Got a question for y'all. Do you guys think that more characters = more important franchise?

I think it's bull**** but a lot of people feel that way.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Got a question for y'all. Do you guys think that more characters = more important franchise?

I think it's bull**** but a lot of people feel that way.

Stole the words right out of my... fingers, I guess, since it's a forum site and all...

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of Zelda representation, I really don't think any character outside the Triforce trio has really made a big enough splash to even be considered for the playable roster at this point. And barring last-minute clone scenarios, I don't think we're getting someone like BotW Link.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Got a question for y'all. Do you guys think that more characters = more important franchise?

Nope

First, representation doesn't begin and end with characters. Stages, items, trophies, and more exist.

Second, some series are just more convenient for content in smash. EX Metroid does not have a lot of characters prime (heh) for smash, but is undeniably important.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Got a question for y'all. Do you guys think that more characters = more important franchise?

I think it's bull**** but a lot of people feel that way.

Zebei kind of hit the nail on the head.

Some characters can work as well fighters, others wouldn't really work.

Lke Mallo from Pushmo? Yeah, he's Assist Trophy material.

 

[Deleted member]

Got a question for y'all. Do you guys think that more characters = more important franchise?

I think it's bull**** but a lot of people feel that way.

No. Personally, I believe characters should get in based on their own merits and what they can bring to the table, not because of how many other characters from the same franchise are currently on the roster.

For example, as a Zelda fan I realize there aren't many potential newcomers left from that series, and I don't mind that a series with more potential like Fire Emblem has more characters despite being a smaller franchise.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing about the Zelda series is that it has all the major characters playable or heavily part of the moveset in some way. While regular Ganon isn't technically there, Beast Ganon is still a Ganon form and has a role in gameplay. It's not just a Trophy or a Song. It's not as sweet as a playable Ganon, but it's still there, something that means the 6 most important Zelda characters have. Ganon, Ganondorf, Link, Child Link, Zelda, and Sheik. Sheik is definitely a case of circumstance, but the fact she is Zelda still makes her more important than many others.

Related, if there was a reboot, the only "additional" form that is needed at best is Pig Ganon because it's actually in more than one game and the original boss. Zelda, Link, and Ganondorf round out the rest. Both Links represent the full series well, of course, they'd have to modify him to use the Hookshot again at least if they wanted to be more about each Zelda game. The Clawshot is far less used in games, and thus, the less important of the two versions of the Item. Respectively, Toon Link using the Hookshot helps, as a notable thing about Young Link is Sakurai somewhat viewed him as the Link from the first game, and one could argue that the earlier overhead games star Young Link too. Which makes the Hookshot being on a younger Link all the more notable for fully representing the series.

That said, Zelda feels like one of the better represented series. The most important 6 are in gameplay. It has tons of assist trophies, trophies, music, stages, and stickers(well, in one game). The characters feel like their personalities and what you'd expect them to act like. Albeit, the only one that is kind of odd is Sheik due to having no real role in how she fought before Smash. Ganondorf was a very brutal character outside of his magic and sword, so he's actually more fitting in comparison. I do agree he lacks some magic, but beyond that, he feels justtttt right.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai somewhat viewed him as the Link from the first game

I'm pretty sure that was only in the localized Trophy description from Melee, which also displays Zelda I as Young Link's first appearance, whereas the Japanese version lists Ocarina of Time as his first appearance if I remember correctly.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm pretty sure that was only in the localized Trophy description from Melee, which also displays Zelda I as Young Link's first appearance, whereas the Japanese version lists Ocarina of Time as his first appearance if I remember correctly.

I thought there was some other statement about it?

Also, it's unknown why it only applied to the localized version. This isn't the same thing as like Perfect Dark and licensing stuff.

That said, isn't Link also listed as being from Zelda 1 too? I mean, they're both representations of regular Link as is. So it makes a bit of sense. Toon Link is a lot different, and actually a more specific version of the character(in the same way as Goron Link would be). Hence only listing the Wind Waker related games at best.

 

[Deleted member]

I thought there was some other statement about it?

Also, it's unknown why it only applied to the localized version. This isn't the same thing as like Perfect Dark and licensing stuff.

That said, isn't Link also listed as being from Zelda 1 too? I mean, they're both representations of regular Link as is. So it makes a bit of sense. Toon Link is a lot different, and actually a more specific version of the character(in the same way as Goron Link would be). Hence only listing the Wind Waker related games at best.

Yeah, Zelda I is listed as Link's first appearance in all versions. Same with Zelda.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, Zelda I is listed as Link's first appearance in all versions. Same with Zelda.

Yeah, made little sense to list Young Link's as OOT, when he's pretty much no different from Link. Link looks chibi-like almost in the first game, and the actual artwork depicts him as younger than OOT's design, so it seems logical. Could be a case of "we didn't think the trophy's bit through enough and realized it later". Hard to say why. Sakurai did talk about how a Child Link is important too, so maybe he simply realized it during localization? How long was Melee's releases between Japan and the US?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, made little sense to list Young Link's as OOT, when he's pretty much no different from Link. Link looks chibi-like almost in the first game, and the actual artwork depicts him as younger than OOT's design, so it seems logical. Could be a case of "we didn't think the trophy's bit through enough and realized it later". Hard to say why. Sakurai did talk about how a Child Link is important too, so maybe he simply realized it during localization? How long was Melee's releases between Japan and the US?

Melee was released in November 21 in Japan and December 3 in North America, so less than a month apart.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Melee was released in November 21 in Japan and December 3 in North America, so less than a month apart.

Less than two weeks, even.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Why are we suddenly discussing Melee's release date? I wasn't paying attention