Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Chocobo is a mascot for the FF series as a whole which has (or had) a strong presence on Nintendo consoles, regardless of what game the costume was based off.

And like I said before there was so little FF content added in other than the two tracks and Midgar. Once we get the port or a new game we're definitely going to see more FF related stuff like trophies and music from other FF games.

FF's logo in Smash Bros is the series initials as opposed to the Meteor FF7 is noted for. And really it would be stupid to not incorporate other FF tracks/content in the game given the rich history FF has.

They had no time or money to regardless. All the FF content is copyrighted explicitly to VII. There's no way around it. It's just VII additions for FF content. Chocobo's Hat(not a full costume) is blatantly based upon a spin-off, but still is treated as VII in copyright. There is zero generic FF content in the game officially. Of course, yes, if Cloud had released as a base character, having non-VII content is extremely likely. But that's not how it happened.

Geno is the only actual non VII content from Square-Enix. When the copyright backs it up, the designs don't show any generic FF content, at some point, one just has to admit they intended to represent that game with the DLC. The evidence is pretty clearly there. There's nothing to suggest at all they were trying to shove in generic FF stuff. Sure, part of it that is that it's way easier to have one copyright to license, but that's also a hard fact too. The reasoning behind it isn't really all that relevant. What matters is the actual content, and the context it's used in.

Anyway, I'm just annoyed at the crappy song options. I didn't expect anything non-VII, and my favorite music is from VIII, but come on.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

And like I said before there was so little FF content added in other than the two tracks and Midgar. Once we get the port or a new game we're definitely going to see more FF related stuff like trophies and music from other FF games.

FF's logo in Smash Bros is the series initials as opposed to the Meteor FF7 is noted for. And really it would be stupid to not incorporate other FF tracks/content in the game given the rich history FF has.

That's if we get Cloud back or at least a Final Fantasy character in the base roster.

Yeah, Final Fantasy has a crap ton of music and other content and not just from FF7.

OMG I don't care if it's Cloud or Moogle (plz) or whoever, if Clash on the Big Bridge is in the game FF is perfectly represented.

I wouldn't say it is perfect, but it would be awesome to have that track in, regardless of my obvious FF5 bias. Clash on the Big Bridge is one of the many popular tracks of Final Fantasy.

Anyway, I'm just annoyed as the crappy song options. I didn't expect anything non-VII, and my favorite music is from VIII, but come on.

I agree with you on the music choice we do have in regards to Cloud's appearance. I find it very lacking. I think FFVIII's soundtrack is pretty good, indeed.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

This is Square we are talking about, it's clear that they've cut corners with the content.

Though the same can be said for many Ken and Ryu theme remixes/versions out of Capcom as opposed to other Street Fighter themes.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

For me, the third-party characters I want to see the most in Smash would be:
1: Doomguy/Doom Slayer
2: Rayman
3: Phoenix Wright.
4: A Persona/Shin Megami Tensei character, so Jack Frost, Yu Narukami or Joker (P5)

With how supportive Bethesda have been towards Nintendo with the Switch, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to get a deal to bring one of their characters to Smash. You could go for the Dovahkiin/Dragonborn for a fantasy and magic weapons character, but that could overlap with other characters in that niche like Robin or Corrin. O

Doomguy on the other hand has a long-running legacy with the First Person Shooter genre, and could fill the archetype of a weapons based heavyweight like Snake. Use various weapons throughout the DOOM games such as the shotgun, chainsaw, pistol, rocket launcher, and the BFG-9000 as a Final Smash.

Rayman's also a good candidate for a 3rd-party character - his lack of limbs lends to plenty of creativity to play with from across the Rayman games to come up with a Smash-friendly Movelist. Not to mention he's got the benefit of appearing in Smash Wii U as a trophy, thanks to Legends being published by Nintendo in Japan. He's got a good shot, but he's probably got competition from the Rabbids or Assassins of Ubisoft, but Rayman has the longer legacy than either.

 

[Deleted member]

This is Square we are talking about, it's clear that they've cut corners with the content.

Though the same can be said for many Ken and Ryu theme remixes/versions out of Capcom as opposed to other Street Fighter themes.

It's also worth noting that the only third party DLC character that had more than two songs and more than one trophy beyond the character themself happened to be the ballot winner.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's also worth noting that the only third party DLC character that had more than two songs and more than one trophy beyond the character themself happened to be the ballot winner.

Likewise, Sega owns Bayonetta. Square-Enix has no content till DLC, and MegaMan and Ryu are owned by two different branches of Capcom(USA and Co. LTD).

It's easy to see why only one got a ton of content. It was easier to strike a deal with Sega overall. I mean, they already had content, after all. Sega has been super friendly with Nintendo too, so that was a huge factor. It may also be part of what made Bayonetta a super feasible option over others.

 

[Deleted member]

Two characters I think people are sleeping on is Daisy and Shadow. Two characters I don't necessarily support but I can see getting in due to their mainstream popularity. More so Daisy who can make it in as a semi-clone.

Daisy's pretty much a lost cause like Toad and Waluigi (sadly) at this point.
I agree that people are sleeping on Shadow, however.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Daisy's pretty much a lost cause like Toad and Waluigi (sadly) at this point.
I agree that people are sleeping on Shadow, however.

Honestly, Waluigi would need an appearance that gives him something really unique first. Popularity isn't the issue. One can argue that Toad or Paper Mario are more important and should get in, of course. One idea I do like is a sports moveset, but only because his whole point was a sports partner. It fits his concept pretty well.

Daisy, yeah, she still doesn't have much beyond Peach 2.0 in her only real story appearance. She clearly changed a lot and is notable in her own right, but... what does she have right now that is unique? As for Toad, similar issues, although I can't remember what Sakurai said on him. I know he dismissed him, but I forgot why.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Daisy is not some I've ever been a fan of, personally.

Shadow isn't too likely either. I mean, why include a FF6 character who isn't Terra?

 

[Deleted member]

If there is anyone from the Mario series I can see being added in as a semi-clone, it's Dry Bowser, given the surprising recurring appearances he's had.
With the theme being that he is a fossil of the old Bowser style that Smash 4 ditched (and Giga Bowser still retains, so it's not COMPLETELY gone).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, Dry Bowser would work out better as an alternate palette swap for Bowser.

 

[Luminario]

Daisy is a garbage character she'll never get in, which is amazing.

fite me

Daisy can still pretty easily get in as a quick Peach semi-clone. She's pretty popular as a spin-off character too. Give her a Superball for B, baseball bat reflector for side B, flower bud trap for down B, whatever ya want for up B, and reuse Peach's assets like the tennis racket or the crown whack in a different way and voila~ easy semi-clone.

On the topic of 3rd Party newcomers I've recently been hoping for Moogle as a second FF rep. Cloud's fine to come back too but lets be honest his representation of FF feels rather limited compared to other 3rd parties like Ryu and Bayo. I feel like Moogle can show off things like spells and summons and stuff that really make Final Fantasy what it is.

If there is anyone from the Mario series I can see being added in as a semi-clone, it's Dry Bowser, given the surprising recurring appearances he's had.
With the theme being that he is a fossil of the old Bowser style that Smash 4 ditched (and Giga Bowser still retains, so it's not COMPLETELY gone).

I've often seen Dry Bowser as a better received Baby Rosalina. He's a quick and easy clone for the spin-offs to buff up the roster. I would like to see the skeleton shenanigans he could get up to though.

 

[Bowserlick]

Toad is popular.

I think he has a shot. Super Mario 2 moveset mixed with a Mariokart theme.

 

[Ura]

They had no time or money to regardless. All the FF content is copyrighted explicitly to VII. There's no way around it. It's just VII additions for FF content. Chocobo's Hat(not a full costume) is blatantly based upon a spin-off, but still is treated as VII in copyright. There is zero generic FF content in the game officially. Of course, yes, if Cloud had released as a base character, having non-VII content is extremely likely. But that's not how it happened.

Geno is the only actual non VII content from Square-Enix. When the copyright backs it up, the designs don't show any generic FF content, at some point, one just has to admit they intended to represent that game with the DLC. The evidence is pretty clearly there. There's nothing to suggest at all they were trying to shove in generic FF stuff. Sure, part of it that is that it's way easier to have one copyright to license, but that's also a hard fact too. The reasoning behind it isn't really all that relevant. What matters is the actual content, and the context it's used in.

Anyway, I'm just annoyed at the crappy song options. I didn't expect anything non-VII, and my favorite music is from VIII, but come on.

It's copyrighted because that's the game it pertains to no? Otherwise I don't see why Chocobo being a Mii Costume isn't a representation of the FF series as a whole. The Zelda cast in Smash is mostly TP based design wise but they still encompass the entire Zelda series. Same thing goes for the Chocobo.

Daisy's pretty much a lost cause like Toad and Waluigi (sadly) at this point.
I agree that people are sleeping on Shadow, however.

I disagree. She has a pretty huge support base in Japan which is crucial in getting in to the game and is featured prominently in recent games (mostly spinoffs but whatever). I feel she can sneak in next time round as a semi-clone of Peach to complement whatever new Mario character gets in the next Smash Bros. Sort of like a situation but obviously she wouldn't be as clone-ish as DP.

Ideally I wouldn't like Shadow in Smash because I hate the idea of multiple characters from a third party franchise being in the game but it is what it is (if it happened). He's a character with a huge silent support base I feel.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's copyrighted because that's the game it pertains to no? Otherwise I don't see why Chocobo being a Mii Costume isn't a representation of the FF series as a whole. The Zelda cast in Smash is mostly TP based design wise but they still encompass the entire Zelda series. Same thing goes for the Chocobo.

That's a terrible analogy. All of them started with the original design in their first appearances and updated designs. Link was basically not just OOT, but took design cues all the way up to that game. Young Link too. Zelda as well. They didn't just get updated to TP forever. Their designs also have cues from more than one game. They were never intended to represent one game as a whole, or one sub-series.

Your analogy is severely flawed because you're ignoring the fact that it isn't some random Chocobo among the races. It's an extremely specific character being used as a Hat. From their own specific set of games. The only one remotely comparable is Toon Link, who isn't really meant to represent the series as a whole. His whole design is based around WW, PH, and ST as the core games, but also moves from a few others. The only actual move that isn't from a Toon-related game(Toon games include Minish Cap and the Four Swords series) is the Upthrust, and that's a holdover from being a clone of Link. Final Smash is original, not from any game, so that doesn't much matter.

But to keep it short as I can, please provide straight evidence of how it can even remotely represent FF as a whole. Something it does. I mean, it's a hat... of a unique character that just happens to have the same name as the generic race. And saying the specific character doesn't count is like saying Yoshi, and every Pokemon weren't based upon extremely specific characters entirely. It does make any logical sense.

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree. She has a pretty huge support base in Japan which is crucial in getting in to the game and is featured prominently in recent games (mostly spinoffs but whatever). I feel she can sneak in next time round as a semi-clone of Peach to complement whatever new Mario character gets in the next Smash Bros. Sort of like a situation but obviously she wouldn't be as clone-ish as DP.

Ideally I wouldn't like Shadow in Smash because I hate the idea of multiple characters from a third party franchise being in the game but it is what it is (if it happened). He's a character with a huge silent support base I feel.

The ONLY game to note about Daisy is Super Mario Run's update.
Other than that (which isn't much, honestly), she's just as "prominent" as she and Waluigi have been in the past. Not at all.

It's not going to be enough to warrant consideration.
Especially when the idea is that she'd be added as a clone. If Smash 4 is anything to go buy, we're done with pre-planned clones. The only reason we got Lucina and Dark Pit (as well as Dr. Mario's return) was because they were initially planned as costumes and made the jump later in development.

As for Shadow, he's got a lot more than just a support base in comparison.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Toad is popular.

I think he has a shot. Super Mario 2 moveset mixed with a Mariokart theme.

I have to say, Toad doesn't really work anymore now that we have a Toad who is different from the rest of the species. If they add in a regular Toad I'd be bummed out that Captain Toad got neglected

Likewise, Sega owns Bayonetta.

Two things, 1: Bayonetta 2 is co-owned by Nintendo
2: considering the love and detail she had put into her, I do think her being the ballot winner means they went the extra mile for fanservice

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have to say, Toad doesn't really work anymore now that we have a Toad who is different from the rest of the species. If they add in a regular Toad I'd be bummed out that Captain Toad got neglected

The Toad is Super Mario Bros. 2 USA is not the generic race either. He's the original hero people have played as in Mario Kart, Mario Party, and various Mario games. New Super Mario Bros. had 2 unrelated Toads. Captain Toad is yet another person. They wouldn't be adding in a "regular" Toad, but the original hero people played as. I do agree that the main issue is he isn't separated from the race at this point. The design is barely unique as the race is full of slightly different colored shirts and spots on their heads, etc. And then there's the Toads in Paper Mario, like Spicy T. Etc.

Two things, 1: Bayonetta 2 is co-owned by Nintendo
2: considering the love and detail she had put into her, I do think her being the ballot winner means they went the extra mile for fanservice

Sega also being cooperative helped immensely too. Nintendo co-owning her obviously as well. It's not a coincidence. I forgot Nintendo co-owned her. She feels more like she's 2nd party almost. XD

 

[N3ON]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth
Your entire argument surmises that because characters can, allegedly, be included without a Nintendo appearance, relevance to Nintendo is virtually meaningless. I dare say you might be the only one who believes that. Saying an appearance isn't necessary isn't the same as saying an appearance doesn't matter. For some strange reason, you seem to be conflating them. A character not needing an appearance (which is only the assumption we're operating under btw) doesn't preclude those that have made noteworthy appearances having a leg up.

I could go into all the benefits between developers fostered with collaboration and support, or I could demonstrate how publisher support tends to lead to fan support, or I could cite precedent of how all the current characters and/or series are relevant in some way to Nintendo, but I'll just leave this here.

I might have had misgivings if Cloud had never appeared on a Nintendo console in any form, though.

So really, I think you're speaking out of turn. Precedent, affirmation, and -frankly imo- logic seem to indicate that relevance to Nintendo is one factor that can't be outright ignored. For all we actually know, a character may indeed have to appear on Nintendo. Sakurai's statement possibly indicates thusly. But, for argument's sake, even if they don't require a Nintendo appearance, it's more than obvious why a close relation to Nintendo is only a boon to a character's odds.

 

[EdwardSponge]

Has anyone ever thought of an honest to god moveset for Daisy that wasn't Waluigis spin-off amalgamation?
I get that people want her as a Peach clone but I don't think Peach's move would fit. At all.
Mainly because Daisy has basically accomplished absolutely nothing in her entire life. The Daisy boat just seems like one that sunk before it even set sail.
I probably never will understand Daisy supporters, but I respect them for their undying dedication. Rock on Daisy fans, never give up the dream

The Toad is Super Mario Bros. 2 USA is not the generic race either. He's the original hero people have played as in Mario Kart, Mario Party, and various Mario games. New Super Mario Bros. had 2 unrelated Toads. Captain Toad is yet another person. They wouldn't be adding in a "regular" Toad, but the original hero people played as. I do agree that the main issue is he isn't separated from the race at this point. The design is barely unique as the race is full of slightly different colored shirts and spots on their heads, etc. And then there's the Toads in Paper Mario, like Spicy T. Etc.


Sega also being cooperative helped immensely too. Nintendo co-owning her obviously as well. It's not a coincidence. I forgot Nintendo co-owned her. She feels more like she's 2nd party almost. XD

I dont remember a blue toad being playable in Kart or Party...

 

[Himura Kenshin]

Daisy or the game ****ing sucks.

 

[EdwardSponge]

Daisy or the game ****ing sucks.

Smash 4 was unplayable for me for months because they removed Wolf, and K Rool wasn't included.
Literally unplayable.
Still salty to this day.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Has anyone ever thought of an honest to god moveset for Daisy that wasn't Waluigis spin-off amalgamation?
I get that people want her as a Peach clone but I don't think Peach's move would fit. At all.
Mainly because Daisy has basically accomplished absolutely nothing in her entire life. The Daisy boat just seems like one that sunk before it even set sail.
I probably never will understand Daisy supporters, but I respect them for their undying dedication. Rock on Daisy fans, never give up the dream

I dont remember a blue toad being playable in Kart or Party...

I don't see why a sports amalgation would be "Waluigi's"

 

[Deleted member]

Daisy over Waluigi would make me extremely salty.

Shadow is my least favorite out of the 4 most likely Sonic newcomers (Him, Tails, Eg, & Knuckles), and the only one I'm actually opposed to.

 

[EdwardSponge]

I don't see why a sports amalgation would be "Waluigi's"

Waluigi already has a foot in the door due to his assist trophy for being the spin off character. Having Daisy have a spin-off moveset when Waluigi is already more popular and established in smash is just redundant.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

I'm gonna sound simultaneously crazy and moronic by saying this but...
Now that Cloud is in Smash just for having his series sometimes be on a Nintendo console, I ironically want Master Chief because Halo had a DS game that one time.
Not expecting it, just want it.

I don't think people realize, most associate Cloud with FF7 which was for PS1 and was pretty big back then. Most of the other games he showed up later in were just cameo roles even if they were on Nintendo consoles. Heck, Cloud didn't even appear in an original Nintendo game before that even though the first FF game was for NES.

Banjo & Kazooie is full out 3rd party when it comes to Nintendo. It's outright owned by Microsoft. Was 2nd party back when Rare was part of Nintendo though

How come Nuts'n Bolts was an Xbox exclusive then? They have'nt even made a new game for a Nintendo handheld system since Banjo-Pilot.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Smash 4 was unplayable for me for months because they removed Wolf, and K Rool wasn't included.
Literally unplayable.
Still salty to this day.

Same here, K. Rool or no buy.

 

[EdwardSponge]

Same here, K. Rool or no buy.

Careful Dad, double posting is a dangerous thing round'ere.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Careful Dad, double posting is a dangerous thing round'ere.

I know son but I don't care anymore since I'm using my cell phone to type and can't highlight and copy the text on the other post before this. If the boss wants to give me a warning, let them.

 

[EdwardSponge]

Same here, K. Rool or no buy.

To be honest I would still buy the game just to complain and whine to people online about how I have been swindled and K Rool deserves justice. I'de probably try and convirt as many people as possible to vote for K Rool if there ever was a 2nd ballot, not that it matters as the ballot was rigged and life is meaningless.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How come Nuts'n Bolts was an Xbox exclusive then? They have'nt even made a new game for a Nintendo handheld system since Banjo-Pilot.

Because Banjo was owned by Microsoft before that game started development. This should have been self explanatory tbh

 

[Deleted member]

My most wanted 3rd Party character is more FF music.

But seriously, the ones I want are ones that are either "depends on a bunch of stuff"(Shovel Knight), "one game, one port, a remake and nothing else"(Crono) or "you mean mario odyssey or ever oasis?"(anything from Etrian Odyssey)

Also, late replies becayse Smashboards has something against alerts

It's a bummer that a lot of characters in smash have outdated or even unworthy movesets.
But at the same time, a lot of people would be upset if it was changed.

If I was Sakurai I would just give Ganondorf a new moveset, and give the old moveset to BloodFalcon so that old Ganondorf mains can still play their character, and repeat process for other trash movesets.

God****ingdamnit I got one more cent.
$45,65 is the total so far.

It's 2017 and people think we really should take away movesets from characters and slap them on someone else.
As a Ganon main, I'd be really pissed if they took away his moveset and gave it to another character

Make Ridley a boss. If you defeat him on a certain difficulty setting, you discover a glass tube container with a smaller "fighter" sized Ridley. Break the glass, while avoiding/ defeating the weaponized defense system and you unlock fighter Ridley.

Seriously, why do people think there needs to be an excuse for why a character is playable? Smash is not canon to anything except Kirby, if Ridley was playable, he'd just be there without a "oh it's a mini-clone of him" or some made up BS

Now you're both just repeating the same points.

When conversations loop, it's time to break the cycle.


So, with the next week being the week of 3rd parties, how are y'all feeling about 3rd party prospects? Multiple 3rd party devs including Square Enix and Namco-Bandai have pledged their support for the Switch and there are big games like Skyrim and DOOM appearing in a few days.

Thoughts for Smash?

Personally, I wouldn't mind Slime from DQ, I don't care about the seroes at all but I think it'd be a neat fighter.

Also, anything from Atlus, anything.
I'll never get EO but at least I can hope for them to bring one track from the series like End of Raging Winds.
I'd like a SMT character more than a Persona one(I mean, I really don't want to have to blame Persona Q for another mistake) considering how SMT is more tied to Nintendo consoles but hey, we got Cloud so **** my logic

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Because Banjo was owned by Microsoft before that game started development. This should have been self explanatory tbh

No, you don't say?

 

[EdwardSponge]

My most wanted 3rd Party character is more FF music.

But seriously, the ones I want are ones that are either "depends on a bunch of stuff"(Shovel Knight), "one game, one port, a remake and nothing else"(Crono) or "you mean mario odyssey or ever oasis?"(anything from Etrian Odyssey)

Also, late replies becayse Smashboards has something against alerts

God****ingdamnit I got one more cent.
$45,65 is the total so far.

It's 2017 and people think we really should take away movesets from characters and slap them on someone else.
As a Ganon main, I'd be really pissed if they took away his moveset and gave it to another character

Seriously, why do people think there needs to be an excuse for why a character is playable? Smash is not canon to anything except Kirby, if Ridley was playable, he'd just be there without a "oh it's a mini-clone of him" or some made up BS

Personally, I wouldn't mind Slime from DQ, I don't care about the seroes at all but I think it'd be a neat fighter.

Also, anything from Atlus, anything.
I'll never get EO but at least I can hope for them to bring one track from the series like End of Raging Winds.
I'd like a SMT character more than a Persona one(I mean, I really don't want to have to blame Persona Q for another mistake) considering how SMT is more tied to Nintendo consoles but hey, we got Cloud so **** my logic

It's 2017 and people are still using custom colours. Your point?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No, you don't say?

You literally asked why that was the case. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer

Anyway, Pheonix Wright would be the most hype third party for me. He's goofy as **** in Mahvel and people are upset he got cut in Infinite so him in Smash would be neat

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah. And Bowser's one of, if not THE most iconic video game villain of all time. Ridley's a popular character, sure, but he probably doesn't even scratch the top 50 of most iconic video game villains

You're not faithful to yourself, that's no good.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

You literally asked why that was the case. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer

Anyway, Pheonix Wright would be the most hype third party for me. He's goofy as **** in Mahvel and people are upset he got cut in Infinite so him in Smash would be neat

That still really is'nt an answer though. Of course I know MS owned the Banjo-Kazooie IP before that game went into development, that doesn't explain why it didn't appear on other consoles. Usually when I think of 3rd party I think of games that are for Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You're not faithful to yourself, that's no good.

I'm trying to be realistic despite how Ridley is my most wanted

That still really is'nt an answer though. Of course I know MS owned the Banjo-Kazooie IP before that game went into development, that doesn't explain why it didn't appear on other consoles. Usually when I think of 3rd party I think of games that are for Xbox, Playstation, and Nintendo.

...
Xbox is owned by Microsoft, Banjo Kazooie is owned by Microsoft, and they sell their IP exclusively on their own consoles

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Waluigi already has a foot in the door due to his assist trophy for being the spin off character. Having Daisy have a spin-off moveset when Waluigi is already more popular and established in smash is just redundant.

There's quite a few spin-offs though.
There's Mario Kart, Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Mario Sluggers, Mario Golf, Mario Strikers and heck Mario & Sonic as well.

I agree that Daisy shouldn't use Mario Tennis props before Waluigi, but she can easily use her sports outfit and combine the rest of sports (which Daisy has been associated with through seperate Daisy Baseball and Daisy Strikers trophies as well)

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Ok. So Rare is'nt a 3rd party then.