Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok. So Rare is'nt a 3rd party then.

They are because they are owned by a company that Nintendo doesn't own. Mega Man for example is a first party IP for Capcom

 

[BowserK.Rool]

They are because they are owned by a company that Nintendo doesn't own. Mega Man for example is a first party IP for Capcom

Yes but second party developers only make games that are exclusive for the 1st party's console. They were like that with Nintendo and now they are with MS, I mean they were still doing Nintendo games for GBA and DS after the buyout but now they strictly only do games for Microsoft which is who they're owned by. Yes, Mega Man is a 1st party character to Capcom but they don't make their own consoles which makes them 3rd party since all their games for that series have appeared on other consoles that were'nt exclusive.

 

[Deleted member]

It's 2017 and people are still using custom colours. Your point?

I don't see what this has to do with anything tbh. I mean, I can see you're trying to take a shot at me but did you consider me so perfect that complaining about my custom color was the only thing you could think of?

And I'll stop using it when red stops being so pretty aka never

Gwen has done better and all she does is lie to herself thinking KR is good and that EO is bad

 

[Megadoomer]

How come Nuts'n Bolts was an Xbox exclusive then? They have'nt even made a new game for a Nintendo handheld system since Banjo-Pilot.

They were still making games for Nintendo handhelds by 2008 (a Viva Pinata game came out on the DS), since Microsoft doesn't have a handheld of their own, so Nintendo isn't competition in that area. After 2008 was the Dark Times, where Rare focused exclusively on Kinect games. (Not sure if it was forced on them by Microsoft, but it seems likely - from what I've read, Nintendo and Microsoft have two very different managing styles)

 

[Bowserlick]

I have to say, Toad doesn't really work anymore now that we have a Toad who is different from the rest of the species. If they add in a regular Toad I'd be bummed out that Captain Toad got neglected

Toad works. He is playable in Super Mario Brothers 2 and Super Mario 3D World. In both games, he is a speed character with small hops.

In fact, Captain Toad's mini-game is also in 3D world. Both have already existed in the same universe at the same time. I would rather the original playable Toad over Captain Toad. (Although I wouldn't be that bummed if Captain Toad got in).

 

[Luminario]

Has anyone ever thought of an honest to god moveset for Daisy that wasn't Waluigis spin-off amalgamation?
I get that people want her as a Peach clone but I don't think Peach's move would fit. At all.
Mainly because Daisy has basically accomplished absolutely nothing in her entire life. The Daisy boat just seems like one that sunk before it even set sail.
I probably never will understand Daisy supporters, but I respect them for their undying dedication. Rock on Daisy fans, never give up the dream

Yeah, Daisy as a pure Peach clone or alt wouldn't work at all. Some of Peach's moves are much too dainty for Daisy. Semi-clone however works great.
Also, Daisy and Waluigi are pretty much equal in terms of popularity in the spin-off games, and they're both somewhat capable of doing the same thing, it's just that Daisy requires less development time thanks to Peach. Waluigi has his model in there but he doesn't have a character he can borrow from easily, or at least not in the same way.

 

[lanes]

They'd probably need to make some fairly significant changes to the mechanics to accommodate Inklings (assuming they're a playable character) simply because the Ink mechanic is something they don't have any precedent for.

they could pull an orcane and have them place ink on the ground and have specials that vary weather the inkling is standing on ink. down-b could place/submerge in ink, hitting them would send them up, being able to follow up, up-b could function like greninja, neutral-b could either, fire the most normal gun, or cycle through them, and side-b could be a wario type motorcycle with roller. i think that would be a good kit, plus you could make them smashes with the ink tendrils on the inklings head.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

They were still making games for Nintendo handhelds by 2008 (a Viva Pinata game came out on the DS), since Microsoft doesn't have a handheld of their own, so Nintendo isn't competition in that area. After 2008 was the Dark Times, where Rare focused exclusively on Kinect games. (Not sure if it was forced on them by Microsoft, but it seems likely - from what I've read, Nintendo and Microsoft have two very different managing styles)

That makes sense but I think MS completley owns them now don't they?

 

[Bowserlick]

If Daisy and Waluigi were to get in and I was in charge of designing them:

1. Waluigi's moveset would revolve around his personality and long body. Rage-filled, self-loathing, a little perverted. Much like Wario's moveset and style revolves around his personality and round body.

I like the idea of Waluigi throwing a whiskered eggplant and infecting people with his B special. The opponent would lose their B move and get a whiskered eggplant special. In an 8 way battle, every character can be infected with the Waluigi virus.

2. Daisy's design would be centered on sports, but with a 90's Gladiators show spin. She would use speed rings to enhance and accelerate her moves, her tennis balls would be set on fire and she rides a hovering steel, bladed flower-head to rip through her victims for a side special.

 

[Opossum]

Yes but second party developers only make games that are exclusive for the 1st party's console. They were like that with Nintendo and now they are with MS, I mean they were still doing Nintendo games for GBA and DS after the buyout but now they strictly only do games for Microsoft which is who they're owned by. Yes, Mega Man is a 1st party character to Capcom but they don't make their own consoles which makes them 3rd party since all their games for that series have appeared on other consoles that were'nt exclusive.

This is a big misunderstanding. "Second party" isn't actually a thing, but rather a fan term used to describe Pokémon's situation, where Nintendo owns 2/3 of the IP, but not the whole thing.

In the context of Smash, a Microsoft character would indeed be third party, as the character is owned by a company that isn't Nintendo. Likewise, if Microsoft ever made a crossover mascot brawler and Mario was a guest, Mario would be a third party addition for that game. Being a console manufacturer has nothing to do with it in that case.

 

[Arcadenik]

I like the idea of Toad using different mushrooms in his moveset.

B: Mini Mushroom
This has two uses.

1) Toad throws Mini Mushrooms that shrink opponents when you tap or release the B button. This is based on CPU-controlled Toad throwing Poison Mushrooms in the original Super Mario Kart.

2) Toad holds up the Mini Mushroom like Peach holds up Toad when you hold the B button. When the opponent hits the blue mushroom, it explodes with spores that hurt and shrink his opponent.

Side+B: Golden Mushroom
Toad glows yellow as he charges and then he tackles opponents. This is based on Toad’s special item in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

This could be used as horizontal recovery like Luigi’s and Pikachu’s Side+B when he is off the stage.

Up+B: Propeller Mushroom
Toad spins up quickly and floats down slowly. This is based on the Propeller Mushroom in New Super Mario Bros. Wii where there are playable Toads.

Down+B: Pick Up
This has two uses and they exhibit Toad’s superhuman strength.

1) Toad pulls up giant vegetables from Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker when he is standing on the ground. There’s no random faces on the vegetables and no random items like Bob-omb or Mr. Saturn.

2) When this move is done in the air, Toad does a ground pound and if he lands on his opponent, he picks up and carries his opponent like in Super Mario Bros. 2.

Final Smash: Mega Mushroom
Toad grows big till he is about the size of Giga Bowser. Toad have a few seconds to knock out his opponents as a giant.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verde Coeden Scalesworth
Your entire argument surmises that because characters can, allegedly, be included without a Nintendo appearance, relevance to Nintendo is virtually meaningless. I dare say you might be the only one who believes that. Saying an appearance isn't necessary isn't the same as saying an appearance doesn't matter. For some strange reason, you seem to be conflating them. A character not needing an appearance (which is only the assumption we're operating under btw) doesn't preclude those that have made noteworthy appearances having a leg up.

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Having an appearance is not a legit requirement. Precedent =/= fact. Patterns do not make a hard fact.

And yes, Cloud is not "relevant" to Nintendo. Cameos with zero important appearances doesn't mean relevancy. He's not even important in his appearances. Final Fantasy as a series is relevant to Nintendo. Final Fantasy VII is not.

I could go into all the benefits between developers fostered with collaboration and support, or I could demonstrate how publisher support tends to lead to fan support, or I could cite precedent of how all the current characters and/or series are relevant in some way to Nintendo, but I'll just leave this here.

I could care less about precedent. Doesn't make it more than a common pattern that isn't a hard requirement. It is not "logical" to believe that you need relevance to Nintendo either. Because it doesn't apply to every character in Smash either.

So really, I think you're speaking out of turn. Precedent, affirmation, and -frankly imo- logic seem to indicate that relevance to Nintendo is one factor that can't be outright ignored. For all we actually know, a character may indeed have to appear on Nintendo. Sakurai's statement possibly indicates thusly. But, for argument's sake, even if they don't require a Nintendo appearance, it's more than obvious why a close relation to Nintendo is only a boon to a character's odds.

A boon does not make a requirement, just a bonus.

Never mind that that has a pretty clear meaning; that all it did was help the option, but didn't outright determine it. I'm not seeing the logic of why it's a requirement. You're still trying to make it sound like it's needed, instead of useful. And no, I do not and never will agree with the idea it matters much. Cloud still shows why it wasn't nearly as relevant as who he was. "might have had misgivings" means one thing; he would be somewhat less sure. It doesn't mean he considered it all that relevantly.

Cloud doesn't have a "close relation" with Nintendo no matter how much you pretend he does. He has a few cameos. That's a huge difference. He doesn't have any starring roles. All the other 3rd parties bar Snake also had actual close relations with Nintendo as is. Snake has a few games, but not exactly more than ports or new stuff, and even then, he's way closer than Cloud. When everything about FF alone is pure FFVII bar a spin-off Mii hat(which was directly related to a non-FF specific game), and even then, it technically is still labeled FFVII, you can't really call some "close relations" at all. Heck, the Chocobo games actually had direct Nintendo games. It's more associated with Nintendo thatn Cloud ever was. Cloud's reason for getting in isn't because of some Nintendo cameos(it's not even a huge deal and pretty clearly isn't the main reason he got in. I don't know why you're treating it as important when it's just a bonus), it's actually because, as noted many times before, he's the most iconic rpg protagonist available. This is the reason he got in. He still pretty clearly would've gotten in without those cameos(which no, do not count as some "close relations"). Final Fantasy as a series having a close relation with Nintendo might be what you mean, and that I'd agree with. Not so much Cloud, though. Heck, Squall is way more important to Kingdom Hearts and a major NPC. If you want to use an actual character that counts as close to Nintendo. At least he fits that factor well.

I don't see why a sports amalgation would be "Waluigi's"

He originated in a Sports game as Wario's partner. It makes a bit more sense on Waluigi's part. Daisy originated as a damsel in distress akin to Peach's role. She eventually showed up in other spin-offs too. She's not about sports in the same way, and really should not have a sports moveset. It doesn't make much sense for her or represented who she is or why she was created. It's shoehorning in for the sake of it. I'd like her playable, but it makes more sense to give her abilities that were created for her first.

 

[UserKev]

Another third party discussion, huh? I'll get back to you on that.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

This is a big misunderstanding. "Second party" isn't actually a thing, but rather a fan term used to describe Pokémon's situation, where Nintendo owns 2/3 of the IP, but not the whole thing.

In the context of Smash, a Microsoft character would indeed be third party, as the character is owned by a company that isn't Nintendo. Likewise, if Microsoft ever made a crossover mascot brawler and Mario was a guest, Mario would be a third party addition for that game. Being a console manufacturer has nothing to do with it in that case.

Well, turns out Rare is actually first party now but I get what you're saying.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai outright stated a character had to make at least one appearence in a Nintendo console, and as off Cloud, we can assume that it's no matter how minor it is.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Having an appearance is not a legit requirement. Precedent =/= fact. Patterns do not make a hard fact.

And yes, Cloud is not "relevant" to Nintendo. Cameos with zero important appearances doesn't mean relevancy. He's not even important in his appearances. Final Fantasy as a series is relevant to Nintendo. Final Fantasy VII is not.


I could care less about precedent. Doesn't make it more than a common pattern that isn't a hard requirement. It is not "logical" to believe that you need relevance to Nintendo either. Because it doesn't apply to every character in Smash either.


A boon does not make a requirement, just a bonus.

Never mind that that has a pretty clear meaning; that all it did was help the option, but didn't outright determine it. I'm not seeing the logic of why it's a requirement. You're still trying to make it sound like it's needed, instead of useful. And no, I do not and never will agree with the idea it matters much. Cloud still shows why it wasn't nearly as relevant as who he was. "might have had misgivings" means one thing; he would be somewhat less sure. It doesn't mean he considered it all that relevantly.

Cloud doesn't have a "close relation" with Nintendo no matter how much you pretend he does. He has a few cameos. That's a huge difference. He doesn't have any starring roles. All the other 3rd parties bar Snake also had actual close relations with Nintendo as is. Snake has a few games, but not exactly more than ports or new stuff, and even then, he's way closer than Cloud. When everything about FF alone is pure FFVII bar a spin-off Mii hat(which was directly related to a non-FF specific game), and even then, it technically is still labeled FFVII, you can't really call some "close relations" at all. Heck, the Chocobo games actually had direct Nintendo games. It's more associated with Nintendo thatn Cloud ever was. Cloud's reason for getting in isn't because of some Nintendo cameos(it's not even a huge deal and pretty clearly isn't the main reason he got in. I don't know why you're treating it as important when it's just a bonus), it's actually because, as noted many times before, he's the most iconic rpg protagonist available. This is the reason he got in. He still pretty clearly would've gotten in without those cameos(which no, do not count as some "close relations"). Final Fantasy as a series having a close relation with Nintendo might be what you mean, and that I'd agree with. Not so much Cloud, though. Heck, Squall is way more important to Kingdom Hearts and a major NPC. If you want to use an actual character that counts as close to Nintendo. At least he fits that factor well.


He originated in a Sports game as Wario's partner. It makes a bit more sense on Waluigi's part. Daisy originated as a damsel in distress akin to Peach's role. She eventually showed up in other spin-offs too. She's not about sports in the same way, and really should not have a sports moveset. It doesn't make much sense for her or represented who she is or why she was created. It's shoehorning in for the sake of it. I'd like her playable, but it makes more sense to give her abilities that were created for her first.

Daisy has been linked to her sports spin-off appearances multiple times in Smash.
Her Melee trophy mentions her appearance in Mario Golf, her Brawl trophy has her in her Strikers Charged-get up, her Smash 3DS trophy has her in her Tennis get-up and most notably, she has a second trophy and is a Smash Tour item in her Baseball form.
Waluigi might has his origin in Mario Tennis, but Daisy has been linked to other sports much more.

On top of that, her Super Mario Land doesn't bring much to the table when it comes to Daisy's potential, EXCEPT for Super Mario Land's Superball power up which can best be incorporated in an active sports moveset.

Debut is important, but Waluigi doesn't have more right to use soccer or baseball moves than Daisy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Daisy has been linked to her sports spin-off appearances multiple times in Smash.
Her Melee trophy mentions her appearance in Mario Golf, her Brawl trophy has her in her Strikers Charged-get up, her Smash 3DS trophy has her in her Tennis get-up and most notably, she has a second trophy and is a Smash Tour item in her Baseball form.
Waluigi might has his origin in Mario Tennis, but Daisy has been linked to other sports much more.

On top of that, her Super Mario Land doesn't bring much to the table when it comes to Daisy's potential, EXCEPT for Super Mario Land's Superball power up which can best be incorporated in an active sports moveset.

Debut is important, but Waluigi doesn't have more right to use soccer or baseball moves than Daisy.

Waluigi's whole existence is to be a Sports character. Daisy is more than that. She isn't actually associated with Sports much. Those were also some of her latest appearances. Popular ones too. And yeah, it'd make more sense for her to use stuff like Super Mario Land abilities since they're way more associated with her than Sports in origin. That's her debut game. It's not that OOC. The thing is, she should represent her own series a bit more than spin-off games that aren't necessarily important to her. The only thing about those costumes is that they're great for color picks, but they don't represent her that much inherently. Heck, the only notable thing about Daisy she got from the spin-offs is a catchphrase.

Waluigi actually does, since it's core to his character.

Sakurai outright stated a character had to make at least one appearence in a Nintendo console, and as off Cloud, we can assume that it's no matter how minor it is.

No he didn't. That's a mistranslation of Source Gaming. It was never said at all. It's only been made clear that it can help.

@PushDustIn: Could you post the official translation? It seems the old incorrect one has reared its head again. You make one error... XD

 

[Schnee117]

Sakurai outright stated a character had to make at least one appearence in a Nintendo console, and as off Cloud, we can assume that it's no matter how minor it is.

The most he said is that he "Might have had misgivings" if Cloud wasn't on a Nintendo system and that it "Might be a courtesy" if a character had an appearance on a Nintendo system.

"Might" is not an absolute in that context
besides only a Sith deals in absolutes
and All-Might is the only Might that matters

Point is he hasn't outright stated it. He's merely left it as a possibility that in spite of being highly likely, is still not concrete confirmation that a Nintendo appearance is required.

 

[Deleted member]

This is why we can't have nice things, when literally every interview has been mistranslated.

Still, I'd like to see the more faithful translation if anyone has the link to it

 

[Bowserlick]

Waluigi's personality and lanky body type lend itself to a creative moveset. He may have debuted in Tennis, but his personality as well as abilities (swimming in air/ close ties with bombs) have been fleshed out to a degree higher than other Mario characters.

Daisy's biggest personality trait is being a tomboy. Sport moves emphasis this. Which is why I would assign more obvious sport related abilities to Daisy if both she and Waluigi became Smash fighters.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

 

[Deleted member]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

They're all quite unlikely/
I'd be neutral on all of them, but I'm curious: How would Lolo fight? (I have little knowledge of the character so I don't know)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Cool, but nothing hype-worthy.

 

[Schnee117]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Cool to the first two and meh to the latter two.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

They're all quite unlikely/
I'd be neutral on all of them, but I'm curious: How would Lolo fight? (I have little knowledge of the character so I don't know)

In the games, he usually fights by encasing enemies by shooting them a projectile.

It's a puzzle game, so I think he has the potential for a unique moveset based around that.

 

[Opossum]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Saki and Captain Rainbow could be neat. Kinda meh on the other two though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

I wouldn't mind them, especially the former two. Dunno how I feel about Lolo because y'know, Kirby

 

[Megadoomer]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Not familiar with Captain Rainbow, and my only familiarity with Lolo comes from Kirby's Dream Land and Kirby Super Star (though I'm planning to buy one of the Adventures of Lolo games through the Wii Virtual Console - probably the second one), but I would love to see the other two in Smash.

I found it weird that Ray's assist trophy was removed between Brawl and Smash 4, since (along with Isaac) it seems like he has a lot of material to be made into a playable character. For Saki, I'd be fine with either Saki or Isa, but even Saki's assist trophy shows how well he could work if he made the jump to being playable.

That makes sense but I think MS completley owns them now don't they?

Yeah, but they owned Rare when Rare made the handheld games, too. Being owned by Microsoft didn't stop Rare from making games for the Game Boy Advance and DS, though it seems like they were heavily restructured after Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts didn't do well.

 

[Ura]

Saki would be really cool if Smash Bros Crusade is anything to go by.

Ray on the other hand I don't really care about.

 

[FalKoopa]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Saki and Ray are fairly interesting imo.

Don't really care about the others.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

I'd mark for Saki, cool on Ray, and meh on the other two

 

[Bowserlick]

I remember the Adventures of LoLo. Lolo would be my pick.

I would hope they use the textured version of him on the game art. That would help differentiate him from the other HAL lab Kirby family.

 

[Luminario]

How would you guys feel about the following characters if they got in?

-Saki (Sin And Punishment)

-Ray (Custom Robo)

-Lolo (Adventures of Lolo)

-Captain Rainbow (Captain Rainbow)

Saki and Ray seem to have good potential, but out of all these I'd probably only care about Ray. Cap Rainbow would be a nice Cap Falcon palette swap though.

 

[EdwardSponge]

I don't see what this has to do with anything tbh. I mean, I can see you're trying to take a shot at me but did you consider me so perfect that complaining about my custom color was the only thing you could think of?

Exactly, it has nothing to do with anything. Just like how your 2017 statement has nothing to do with anything. I don't understand why you are so against having Ganondorf actually have a moveset that fits his character.
The way I see it, you either play Ganondorf because you are a fan of the character himself and should want Ganondorf to actually act like Ganondorf OR you play him because you like his play style in which case you could just play Bloodfalcon.
So what exactly is the problem with suggesting that they actually fix a problem with their game?

 

[Deleted member]

Exactly, it has nothing to do with anything. Just like how your 2017 statement has nothing to do with anything. I don't understand why you are so against having Ganondorf actually have a moveset that fits his character.
The way I see it, you either play Ganondorf because you are a fan of the character himself and should want Ganondorf to actually act like Ganondorf OR you play him because you like his play style in which case you could just play Bloodfalcon.
So what exactly is the problem with suggesting that they actually fix a problem with their game?

Don't tell me what I "should" want, I like Ganondorf both as a character and a fighter and think he's perfectly fine as it is. Maybe just give him his 2122 custom moves as default but you get my point

The only reason I ever tried playing him was because I like him as a character. His moveset may not look like Ganondorf but it sure as hell feels like Ganondorf. He may not have a projectile, a trident, a horse, bats or whatever but it doesn't feel out of character for him to play the way he does.
Giving his moveset to another character would just mean he's just a function, movesets aren't interchangeable.

Besides, would you like if Captain Falcon, or any other character, had their movesets changed to be more "faithful"? Even if their movesets were given to other characters? Much like other media, a more faithful adaptation doesn't necessarily mean a better one.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Besides, would you like if Captain Falcon, or any other character, had their movesets changed to be more "faithful"? .

Yes.

(not falcon though, he's the only good non-canon)

 

[EdwardSponge]

Don't tell me what I "should" want, I like Ganondorf both as a character and a fighter and think he's perfectly fine as it is. Maybe just give him his 2122 custom moves as default but you get my point

The only reason I ever tried playing him was because I like him as a character. His moveset may not look like Ganondorf but it sure as hell feels like Ganondorf. He may not have a projectile, a trident, a horse, bats or whatever but it doesn't feel out of character for him to play the way he does.
Giving his moveset to another character would just mean he's just a function, movesets aren't interchangeable.

Besides, would you like if Captain Falcon, or any other character, had their movesets changed to be more "faithful"? Even if their movesets were given to other characters? Much like other media, a more faithful adaptation doesn't necessarily mean a better one.

I don't want to tell you what you should want. I just at the time couldn't think of a possible reason why someone wouldn't change him. I always felt that Ganondorfs moveset didn't fit him, especially his up tilt where he lifts his foot above his head but whatever.
I don't mind having captain Falcon having a out of nowhere moveset as he doesn't actually have any moves from his games to implement, whereas Ganondorf does.
It's like if they added Bowser but because they don't have enough time to develop a moveset for him, instead they give him a slower version of Donkey Kong's moves. And then never change it for traditions sake.
But what do I know, I'm not a Ganondorf main (although the only reason I'm not is because he plays like gosh-darn falcon)
You do you man.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes.

(not falcon though, he's the only good non-canon)

Well, now, you can't just say that and not give me any examples, can you?

But what do I know, I'm not a Ganondorf main (although the only reason I'm not is because he plays like gosh-darn falcon)
You do you man.

See, this is where most of the complaints about Ganon's moveset come from, it's usually either because people don't like him being low-tier and thinking he'd be better with a more "faithful" moveset or because they don't actually play him.

I don't think him being a full clone in Melee fits him, what does fit him is the moveset he has in Brawl and 4.
And that's also another thing I think makes people dislike his current state: it's npt that he has this moveset, but rather that those moves were based on another character.
I mean, Pikachu never did a spin in place to attack, Mario hadn't done the spin until Galaxy, Link never used kicks, and so on and on. I guess it's less about being faithful and more about him not being a clone. But that's the thing, he isn't anymore, he shares 3 specials, 1 Smash, no tilts and 3 aerials, but they all behave differently(except maybe F-Smash outside of strenght/speed)

 

[EdwardSponge]

I mean, Pikachu never did a spin in place to attack, Mario hadn't done the spin until Galaxy, Link never used kicks, and so on and on.

Sorry to be 'that guy' but Mario's spin jump comes from both Super Mario World and Sunshine.
But yeah, Link's kicks are dumb.

What I'm hoping for is that they just add Ganon as his own character in addition to Ganondorf, and utilises Ganon stuff like his trident, red bats, teleportation, anything really that Ganon actually does in his games. Just feels like wasted potential.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Well, now, you can't just say that and not give me any examples, can you?

Wario and Donkey Kong both deserve real movesets that draw from Wario Land/Ware and DKC, respectively.

Unpopular, but I also think Mario is due for an overhaul. People always mention Samus as someone who doesn't use enough of their moves but Mario's got WAY more powerups missing.