Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SquashiniKun]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/423458206

Here's a new leak i recently found

 

[ToddCam]

I have given it some thought, and this is my response.

This isn't a "Ridley/Waluigi is totally in the game, guys, look at all this evidence! (that isn't really evidence at all)", this is a case of "Sakurai has shown us three characters and told them they are an archetype unto themselves, what is it about these characters that separates them from their originals and what do they share as an archetype?"

• In the case of Lucina and Dark Pit, they were originally conceived as Alternate Costumes.
• They share the same size (or at least an approximate size with a difference so small as to be negligible) and weight as their original counterparts.
• All their attacks share the same animation basis, any animations that are different are entirely cosmetic (Peach looks away when Toad counterattacks, Daisy doesn't).
• They have a minor difference from their counterparts that changes the way they play very slightly (Lucina's tipper, Dark Pit's Arrows curve differently and his Electroshock Arm knocks people in a different direction to Pit's arm, Daisy's side Special knocking down instead of up).
• If they have one or more attacks that are entirely different from their counterpart (F.L.U.D.D. vs Doctor Tornado), they are no longer an Echo Fighter (otherwise Doctor Mario would be an Echo).

These arguments are not based on nothing, and they are certainly not based on ambiguous language.

Bill Trinen is not on the design team, he doesn't necessarily know what he is talking about; his Pills vs. Fireballs example was actually a bad one, because Dark Pit's arrows are just as different. If he had cited F.L.U.D.D. vs. Doctor Tornado, there wouldn't be a problem.

I will admit I have gotten angry about this subject in the last few days, that was when I was tired and cranky; currently I am well-rested and quite calm.

I appreciate your explaining your position. I never thought your (or the consensus's) argument was based on nothing; I just don't think it's enough evidence. It has yet to convince me. It's an extrapolation based on evidence. I like how you took the idea of questioning why Lucina and Dark Pit are called Echoes and not Dr. Mario. However, there is another reason they are different from Dr. Mario. They were introduced in the last game, and don't appear to have any attempt at "de-cloning". Every clone in the past has been different from its base from the beginning, and so I can see the new term Echo Fighter being used as a means of getting the character in the door with a non-unique moveset (more akin to Lucas and Wolf), to be later potentially de-Echoed.

Either way, the way the definition has been refined by many on Smashboards so you can exclude Character A from the Curse of the Echo Fighter Status is, I find, irrational. We obviously disagree with what the threshold of evidence needs to be to set down a rule. Again, I am not rejecting your view, I am saying that you don't have enough evidence to be so confident in your determination that you can actually be angry with someone not adhering to your definition.

I appreciate your well-thought out response! I find you to be an enjoyable person here.

Also, sorry that all my posts sound so pompous. I just like to be precise. I reread my writings and I'm like, "Don't you sound smart? What an ass." If we were having in-person dialogue, I'd sound much more natural as I stumble through conversation.

 

[Murlough]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/423458206

Here's a new leak i recently found

There is no way they will make a silhoutte image for Smash characters. Nintendo characters are all very distinct with body shapes and we'd literally know all of them within the hour.

I feel like he's rolling off of the image Cross Tag Battle did at release but unlike Nintendo uses 2D images based on anime characters that can bend and shift in multiple ways that actually make it challenging to figure out who the silhoutte is.

Imagine Decidueye or Mimikyu or Incineroar (for example) as a silhoutte and you tell me it would be hard to figure out that it was one of those characters.

It would never work sadly.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

There is no way they will make a silhoutte image for Smash characters. Nintendo characters are all very distinct with body shapes and we'd literally know all of them within the hour.

All I can think of:

All of these fake leaks are starting to get annoying - they all say the same thing. I kinda just want to get some more news already. Hopefully it's not too much longer before the official site starts putting new stuff in the blog - or we get the items/stages parts opened up.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Lets not forget Sonic and Shadow. If people can make an argument that Dark Samus *can't* be a echo of Samus then they can't turn around and say Shadow would obviously be an echo of Sonic. The exact same arguments apply to both characters.

(Except the "I only played SA2 and Heroes so ignore every other game Shadow was in" argument. Not trying to make this discussion about Shadow I'm just pointing out the hypocricy.)

Not really though, Dark Samus and Samus are completely different apart from their appearance, they've NEVER been shown to use any of the same abilities. Shadow and Dark Pit can and have played just like their original characters, you can't say the same about Dark Samus

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The black and red reminds me of Darkrai rather than Shadow Mewtwo (which is orange and black), but the eyes aren't blue so it's not a perfect match.

The black Mewtwo palette has red eye irises, mostly as a way to make it feel more evil. It wasn't really meant to reference Darkrai anyway.

 

[Pakky]

Sure I want to hear it

Thank you


So basically like how DMC has three characters Dante, Vergil, and Nero I think this is going to happen to Bayonetta in the third game.

If it does this third character might be in Smash for promotional purposes.

 

[Murlough]

Not really though, Dark Samus and Samus are completely different apart from their appearance, they've NEVER been shown to use any of the same abilities. Shadow and Dark Pit can and have played just like their original characters, you can't say the same about Dark Samus

Read my parenthesis thank you.

All I can think of:

All of these fake leaks are starting to get annoying - they all say the same thing. I kinda just want to get some more news already. Hopefully it's not too much longer before the official site starts putting new stuff in the blog - or we get the items/stages parts opened up.

Now I want this to actually happen, thanks a lot.

That episode of the anime was the best one they ever made.

 

[Deleted member]

Let me explain.

You can say "Bandanna Dee and King K. Rool" are likely, but it is strange to say "We have a 63% chance for Sakraui to give us Bandanna Dee and King K. Rool.".

Tell that to the RTC thread, lol.

 

[osby]

Thank you


So basically like how DMC has three characters Dante, Vergil, and Nero I think this is going to happen to Bayonetta in the third game.

If it does this third character might be in Smash for promotional purposes.

A side character from a third party game won't get into Smash, especially if the main character is doing promotional work already.

 

[Pakky]

Oh snap big reveal!

 

[RileyXY1]

A side character from a third party game won't get into Smash, especially if the main character is doing promotional work already.

The only way that I can see Bayonetta getting a second character is if Jeanne makes it in as an echo fighter.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Read my parenthesis thank you.

Now I want this to actually happen, thanks a lot.

That episode of the anime was the best one they ever made.

But every single thing that Sonic can do in smash can be applied to Shadow with little to no issue, yes they play differently in battle and have some differences in the later main games but at their core they can still work the same, Dark Samus fighting like Samus contradicts everything she's ever done in the metroid games. I agree that shadow should be able to use his chaos abilities but when push comes to shove he's a lot closer to sonic in terms of abilities than samus is to dark samus and works far better as an echo.

 

[Pakky]

A side character from a third party game won't get into Smash, especially if the main character is doing promotional work already.

Just a thought. Though the character would be an echo do to most characters in the Bayo universe having similar abilities.

Witches have Witch Time

Sages have Light Speed.

Oh and Bayo dies I think in three, from the looks of it.

 

[SquashiniKun]

There is no way they will make a silhoutte image for Smash characters. Nintendo characters are all very distinct with body shapes and we'd literally know all of them within the hour.

I feel like he's rolling off of the image Cross Tag Battle did at release but unlike Nintendo uses 2D images based on anime characters that can bend and shift in multiple ways that actually make it challenging to figure out who the silhoutte is.

Imagine Decidueye or Mimikyu or Incineroar (for example) as a silhoutte and you tell me it would be hard to figure out that it was one of those characters.

It would never work sadly.

It can work, if you squeeze the characters together so that it looks like a blob.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Thank you


So basically like how DMC has three characters Dante, Vergil, and Nero I think this is going to happen to Bayonetta in the third game.

If it does this third character might be in Smash for promotional purposes.

Rosa already exists in bayo 2

 

[MainJPW]

Not really though, Dark Samus and Samus are completely different apart from their appearance, they've NEVER been shown to use any of the same abilities. Shadow and Dark Pit can and have played just like their original characters, you can't say the same about Dark Samus

Tails also played exactly like Sonic in his debut and Knuckles was extremely similar, and everyone in the PSP titles plays the exact same. Sonic's moveset is mostly just his moveset from Fighters with Shadows air attack from Battle. Shadow never fought with Capoeira styled moves in Battle or any other game like Sonic does, he fights with Chaos powers and precise strikes.

 

[Pakky]

Rosa already exists in bayo 2

Spoiler: Ummm well ya'know

She's dead she was dead at the start of Bayo1 which Bayo 2 loops around back to. and she's still dead as is Balder

I meant like a character that will be a main pillar moving forward like a Nero[/QUOTE]

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Oh snap big reveal!

Do we have footage of Ridley's yet ???

 

[Pakky]

Do we have footage of Ridley's yet ???

Yeah he's the Cunning God of Death

 

[justPUNT3R]

I was disappointed when I saw that Dark Pit was an Echo. He could've used Pit's specials from Brawl. (lul off-topic)

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Yeah he's the Cunning God of Death

Yo lying is he?!

I know a lot of people were speculating that but I haven't seen a screenshot or footage yet. I'm looking now.

 

[Murlough]

Tails also played exactly like Sonic in his debut and Knuckles was extremely similar, and everyone in the PSP titles plays the exact same. Sonic's moveset is mostly just his moveset from Fighters with Shadows air attack from Battle. Shadow never fought with Capoeira styled moves in Battle or any other game like Sonic does, he fights with Chaos powers and precise strikes.

They are saying that Shadow "CAN" technically fight exactly like Sonic, while Dank Samus has never fought exactly like Samus.

The only thing I really have to respond with is that we've never seen Shadow use most of Sonic's moves in Smash....so I raise you that MoonlitIllusion .


(Holy **** I need to just not bring him up anywhere. What have I done?! WHEN WILL I LEARN THAT MY ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES?!)

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Considering how many of Snake's alts pull from MGS3, something I'd like to see is Big Boss' Sneaking Suit, if they're going over 8 alts.

"Pliskin", "Old Snake" & "The Octo Camo (w/ Mask)" would also be nice.

There's kind of one like the Sneaking Suit from MGSV already. It just doesn't really have the grey sections to it. I'm certain this is a new skin to the game.

That's not a "leak". I screen shotted that myself from a youtube clip. I would love to believe this is based on MGSV and that there's a possibility of MGSV music, but I'll remain cautiously optimistic.
-
On the topic of Echo fighters, I do think people are taking it a little too far. I think it's another case of a concept being misunderstood (at least partially) and applied to characters that really aren't as similar as Daisy is to Peach, Dark Pit is to Pit, or Lucina is to Marth.

Now, I understand the canon difference in fighting style between Lucina and Marth, but the reason she got in in the first place is because of her similarities in height. I mean, to be fair, she even pretends to BE him in the Awakening. We could sit here all day and say, "Well yeah, those characters are different, but they could still be an echo!"

The question should be more of, "Is this character as similar to the source character as Daisy is to Peach?" If not, they aren't an echo fighter. They have the same moveset, but potentially with different properties potentially. But if anything is drastically different, it's technically not an "echo fighter".

In my opinion, (see, not factual, just what I think) not only do I think 3rd party franchises will NOT receive Echo Fighters, but I don't think Shadow would work as one. I simply do not believe it would work. Yes, he's similar to Sonic. They share a similar body type, perhaps. But what does Sakurai make his Assist Trophy do? He has Shadow use Chaos Control, you know, his signature ability? A moveset for Shadow without Chaos Control just doesn't seem right, and if it did show up in his moveset, he wouldn't be an echo anymore really.

That's why I'm also skeptical of Dark Samus as a Samus echo. As an AT, her ability is to basically lunge around and ground pound to cause weird...tentacley things to come out and hit you. That's definitely something Samus can't do, and I don't know that Dark Samus would be Dark Samus anymore if they just copy and pasted Samus' moveset onto Dark Samus.

Just because Sakurai can doesn't necessarily mean he will (or should for that matter).

I could be wrong, but in both cases both characters seem far different from the source material than Daisy is to Peach.

 

[JayJay55]

So is Shadow the next Waluigi, minus the whole AT confirmation?

Spoiler

What if Waluigi is disguised as Shadow as a means of sneaking into Smash.

 

[Murlough]

So is Shadow the next Waluigi, minus the whole AT confirmation?

Spoiler

What if Waluigi is disguised as Shadow as a means of sneaking into Smash.

No. I like the character but I don't think anyone will be personally offended when his AT is revealed to be in the game.

If anyone will end up as the next Waluigi it will be Geno or K. Rool.

 

[Pakky]

Rosa already exists in bayo 2

Going to say this again because I messed up the post horribly.

I see you're point and that's very true however there's a detail about that, that's very important to consider.

Spoiler: Here's the thing

When she appeared much like Balder it was a time travel thing happening, what is to take into consideration is that she is dead and Balder is dead

What I'm talking about is an actual third character that hangs around moving forward.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Tails also played exactly like Sonic in his debut and Knuckles was extremely similar, and everyone in the PSP titles plays the exact same. Sonic's moveset is mostly just his moveset from Fighters with Shadows air attack from Battle. Shadow never fought with Capoeira styled moves in Battle or any other game like Sonic does, he fights with Chaos powers and precise strikes.

And Lucina never fought like marth but they are still echoes. Shadow can punch, kick and turn into a ball, at his core he can still fight in the way sonic can, there's nothing preventing him from doing that and nothing contradicting that he could have sonic's moveset. Dark Samus can't shoot missles or use the screwattack or shoot energy blasts or bombs, I don't think either should be echoes but Shadow makes more sense as one imo

 

[JayJay55]

No. I like the character but I don't think anyone will be personally offended when his AT is revealed to be in the game.

If anyone will end up as the next Waluigi it will be Geno or K. Rool.

I meant more in the sense that every time he’s brought up conversations get shifted to being about him and echoes. Much like how when Waluigi got brought up discussions of him and other ATs would be the topic shift.

 

[MainJPW]

Dank Samus.

Yeah, you're right. That's true.

The only thing I really have to respond with is that we've never seen Shadow use most of Sonic's moves in Smash....so I raise you that MoonlitIllusion .

Good point, I mean Sonic's moves are directly from a game that has nothing to do with Shadow is my point, I even bothered to do a comparison post two pages ago... for some reason.

(Holy **** I need to just not bring him up anywhere. What have I done?! WHEN WILL I LEARN THAT MY ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES?!)

It's not your fault, I should probably shut up.

 

[Cosmic77]

I swear, Echo Fighters have killed a lot of the joy that used to be in this thread.

 

[Pyra]

I swear, Echo Fighters have killed a lot of the joy that used to be in this thread.

I'm not so sure. The speculation happening right now doesn't feel too different from the Smash 4 thread way back then.
It's just another topic to speculate about.

 

[osby]

I swear, Echo Fighters have killed a lot of the joy that used to be in this thread.

There used to be joy on this thread?! Where, I must have missed it?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I swear, Echo Fighters have killed a lot of the joy that used to be in this thread.

I feel that we won't see too many Echo Fighters. We have Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit, but I doubt that we'll see more than 5. Maybe Dry Bowser could be the 4th.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

Alright, I dug to find the page where the reactions began. I wanted to see too. Page 1540!
https://smashboards.com/threads/smash-ultimate-discussion.434391/page-1540

Oh, I was wondering why like 4 people randomly liked my DAISY RIDLEY CONFIRMED post lmfao

 

[Murlough]

I'm not so sure. The speculation happening right now doesn't feel too different from the Smash 4 thread way back then.
It's just another topic to speculate about.

It feels like every other topic in here is just an intermission between Echo discussions, at least to me.

 

[KMDP]

I appreciate your explaining your position. I never thought your (or the consensus's) argument was based on nothing; I just don't think it's enough evidence. It has yet to convince me. It's an extrapolation based on evidence. I like how you took the idea of questioning why Lucina and Dark Pit are called Echoes and not Dr. Mario. However, there is another reason they are different from Dr. Mario. They were introduced in the last game, and don't appear to have any attempt at "de-cloning". Every clone in the past has been different from its base from the beginning, and so I can see the new term Echo Fighter being used as a means of getting the character in the door with a non-unique moveset (more akin to Lucas and Wolf), to be later potentially de-Echoed.

Either way, the way the definition has been refined by many on Smashboards so you can exclude Character A from the Curse of the Echo Fighter Status is, I find, irrational. We obviously disagree with what the threshold of evidence needs to be to set down a rule. Again, I am not rejecting your view, I am saying that you don't have enough evidence to be so confident in your determination that you can actually be angry with someone not adhering to your definition.

I appreciate your well-thought out response! I find you to be an enjoyable person here.

Also, sorry that all my posts sound so pompous. I just like to be precise. I reread my writings and I'm like, "Don't you sound smart? What an ***." If we were having in-person dialogue, I'd sound much more natural as I stumble through conversation.

I also like being precise, at least when I'm arguing a case, and I'm glad you find my ramblings enjoyable.

Spoiler: Full Response goes on a little long so I'll relegate it to this Spoiler Tag

I've repeatedly changed (added to and removed from) my stance on "What is an Echo Fighter?" since I got here (and I expect it to change more); and I agree that, for some, what has been presented is unclear, or not enough to form an opinion. I am fairly confident that my stance is the correct one (not 100%, mind you; just about 70-80%), however.

(For the record, coming to Smashboards has actually somewhat broadened my "list of characters I, personally, would like to see".)

Something I thought about after the fact is that there are technically two more 'rules' that haven't yet been broken: "Echo Fighters can't be third party" and "Echo Fighters must belong to the same Franchise." Now, accepting these arguments as gospel I would consider foolhardy.

I don't take my personal "Rules for Echoes" I've set up as gospel, I consider them "the best explanation until something more specific comes along". Some of the things Bill Trinen said regarding Echo Fighters actually line up with what we know about them from Smash 4 (like that they must share the same attributes; i.e. Height, Weight, Run Speed etc), other parts don't; like the bit about why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo, Dr. Mario is actually heavier than regular Mario, so that's another thing that pulls him away from Mario. In fact, almost all 6 of the Melee clones aren't Echoes not because they came from an earlier game, but because they all have different attributes: Dr. Mario and Roy are heavier, Young Link and Pichu are significantly shorter, Ganondorf moves slower. I actually think Melee Falco may have been considered an Echo back then if the designation had existed, though the marker would have been removed in Brawl.

I consider Wolf more of a "Conceptual Clone" to Fox, even in Brawl; in theory, all his moves (Specials) are very similar, but in practice, they are actually very different: he can only fire one shot at a time, and it takes him longer to fire it; his Dash goes upwards at a 35° angle; his up special has a kick at the end and doesn't have a flame effect , his reflector doesn't let him hang in the air. This is just a random thing I came up with, and I might go into more detail at a later date.

As I said before, if Shadow becomes an Echo, and if the 'rules' I've determined are broken, I will accept it. For all I know, the moveset bit is bogus and the "Attribute Rule" is the only rule; and because Shadow has the same height, movement speed, jump height, fall speed and weight as Sonic, he would be considered an Echo Fighter even if he had Chaos Control and Chaos Spear in his Specials with a radically different fighting style to Sonic. XD Though this would go way against what Bill said (there's probably a kernel of truth to the "Pills" bit).

...Man, this took me a while to write. I really do ramble.

 

[osby]

I feel that we won't see too many Echo Fighters. We have Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit, but I doubt that we'll see more than 5. Maybe Dry Bowser could be the 4th.

Isn't he the same character with Bowser?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Isn't he the same character with Bowser?

Yeah, Dry Bowser would be Bowser's Echo Fighter.

 

[Pyra]

I feel that we won't see too many Echo Fighters. We have Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit, but I doubt that we'll see more than 5. Maybe Dry Bowser could be the 4th.

I wouldn't be surprised.
That's how I feel about it too.

Honestly, I'm aiming low at 3 new characters being echo fighters, and two more unique characters besides Inkling and Ridley. If I'm right, then cool, I'm right. If I'm wrong, then cool, more characters (or, woah, less characters). I won't feel bad either way.

Isn't he the same character with Bowser?

Isn't Dr. Mario just Mario in doctor cosplay

It feels like every other topic in here is just an intermission between Echo discussions, at least to me. t

Well, just the introduction of the classification holds a few interesting implications, so I'm not surprised people find it interesting to talk about.