Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Pakky]

Yeah, it's so ridiculous to think that if Sakurai was going to add an indie character to Smash for no reason other than "representation" that he'd pick the lead of the single biggest Indie franchise in all of Japan, one that's so huge it counts as its own genre at Comiket. Obviously that side character from that one random American game that wasn't even published in Japan until last year is much more likely.

Reimu has just as much a shot as Sans or Shovel Knight or any other Indie. Which is to say, none at all. But if you need an Indie rep for the sake of having an Indie rep, you pick the one with a fanbase bigger than several first party series already on the roster.

Well, objectively speaking he didn't though, he picked Commander Video as a trophy the first Indie to have any sort of representation in Smash. Toho has been around for YEARS does this matter? Maybe in the future, though to be honest I was pointing out the randomness in the leak as opposed to any one character's viability.

 

[RileyXY1]

Your criteria made sense up until her. But thats just for me. Your criteria as a whole are completely subjective. I don't think Captain Falcon was considering a WTF character back in the 64 era.

Cap was a WTF character, simply because of what genre his games are. Being a star of racing games, no one expected him to ever be in a fighting game.

But this time around, we shouldn't expect too many newcomers.

Obscure ones would be the most likely to not show up because the popular and relevant ones are good for marketing.

Can we trust what Sakurai says? This is the same guy who said that Villager and Ridley were unsuitable for the game.

Dude, I was lazy as dirt back when we bought our Wii and I played Wii Sports. It came with the Wii......which had Brawl. Everyone knew who Wii Fit Trainer was when she was announced.

The Wii Fit Trainer wasn't even in Wii Sports. You have your games mixed up.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Just about everyone who isn't a fitness junkie. No one requested her for the game. She was added just to be a WTF character. I'm serious.

People knew who Wii Fit Trainer was, just no one wanted her nor ever thought of her as an actual character that could be in Smash.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Cross felt like a completely different series from Trigger, and judging by the game's divided reception amongst fans, it probably should have been an original IP. What the plot did to the game's original cast was particularly loathsome.

considering it's Kato's personal story, the only thing I'll say is that it should have been on any other console except the PS1. PS1's load times really ruined the fast pace that Trigger had; if it had on-map battles, a lot of the problems (from a gameplay perspective) would have been solved.

Story... I'm perfectly okay with a series being given a melancholy ending

 

[RileyXY1]

People knew who Wii Fit Trainer was, just no one wanted her nor ever thought of her as an actual character that could be in Smash.

Oh. There are a whole bunch of characters that fall into that boat. I think that this game will have some of those types of characters.

 

[vaanrose]

Well, he didn't though, he picked Commander Video as a trophy.

And Rayman was a trophy too. Still got Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta playable first.

 

[Murlough]

The Wii Fit Trainer wasn't even in Wii Sports. You have your games mixed up.

Woops, you right my bad.

 

[ChronoBound]

Story... I'm perfectly okay with a series being given a melancholy ending

The ending was not melancholy for Serge and Kid, just Trigger's cast.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Can we trust what Sakurai says? This is the same guy who said that Villager and Ridley were unsuitable for the game.

He usually keeps his word for the current game he works on. It's for future games that his words lose value.

He didn't think Villager, Miis and Pac-Man would work when working on Brawl. Which game were they introduced as playable? Not Brawl.

The "Ridley is too big" memes are mostly a Smash 4 thing. Which game will Ridley make his playable debut? Not Smash 4.

So when he's saying we shouldn't expect too many newcomers, don't go ahead and speculate we'll get 15 to 20 newcomers like we did since Brawl.

 

[KMDP]

But this time around, we shouldn't expect too many newcomers.

Obscure ones would be the most likely to not show up because the popular and relevant ones are good for marketing.

Yeah, under the assumption there aren't that many newcomers, I think Sakurai would hold off on the crazy picks this time, unless they are specifically asked for en masse.

After all, there's still DLC for that. XD

 

[Mega Bidoof]

There's gonna be some, like Ridley, but not all of the newcomers are going to be highly demanded characters.

I get where you’re coming from, but we honestly don’t know that.

This game’s whole theme is being the ULTIMATE Smash game.
The ballot now seems to have been made for this game and not Smash 4’s DLC, and we’re getting every single veteran coming back, Ganondorf using a sword, Masked Dedede, Daisy, and even Ridley.

Sakurai is going out of his way to give fans what they’ve been asking for for year, and seems to really want to go out in the biggest bang possible, with this probably actually being his last Smash game.

This is the only set of perfect circumstances in which I’d say it’s actually a possibility that every single newcomer is a fan favorite.


Or maybe they won’t all be fan favorites.

But I do think, knowing what we know about this game, it’s unfair to completely write off a fan-favorites roster this time around.

 

[drag0nscythe]

The ending was not melancholy for Serge and Kid, just Trigger's cast.

Just want to say.

We got ridley.
I used to read your novels on the subject.

 

[Pakky]

And Rayman was a trophy too. Still got Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta playable first.

I think you're taking a joke I made widely out of context. However, in terms of fact-checking, we're at a crossroads.

At one point he chose historical icons. At another, he chose a weird western game.

 

[RileyXY1]

I get where you’re coming from, but we honestly don’t know that.

This game’s whole theme is being the ULTIMATE Smash game.
The ballot now seems to have been made for this game and not Smash 4’s DLC, and we’re getting every single veteran coming back, Ganondorf using a sword, Masked Dedede, Daisy, and even Ridley.

Sakurai is going out of his way to give fans what they’ve been asking for for year, and seems to really want to go out in the biggest bang possible, with this probably actually being his last Smash game.

This is the only set of perfect circumstances in which I’d say it’s actually a possibility that every single newcomer is a fan favorite.


Or maybe they won’t all be fan favorites.

But I do think, knowing what we know about this game, it’s unfair to completely write off a fan-favorites roster this time around.

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

 

[ChronoBound]

Just want to say.

We got ridley.
I used to read your novels on the subject.

I think I remember your username over at GameFAQs. Regardless, I am humbled that you still remember my works from all those years ago.

Here is what I wrote in regards to Ridley's long awaited confirmation (its a very long read, so please read only when you have time):
https://smashboards.com/threads/end...e-confirmation-of-ridley-at-long-last.455414/

 

[KMDP]

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

...
...
...
...
...
...
Introduced to Franchises, you say?

 

[Pakky]

Dreams come true.

 

[UltimateWario]

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

I don't get this logic.

For one, I doubt anyone who doesn't follow the Smash Bros. community closely would expect the likes of King K. Rool or Isaac. Neither character has been relevant for a while, but one is a classic, beloved villain and the other reps a series that was obscure but also beloved (as well as being one of the best series on the GBA).

On the other hand, a "surprise" like Wii Fit Trainer is basically a gimmick. It's like "Wow okay that's weird" when she's revealed and then that goes away. Nobody asked for WFT, nobody cared about WFT. She's not a surprise anymore, she's just a weird member of the roster that essentially lives as a reminder of that time that Nintendo marketed to soccer moms and grandparents. For the record I don't dislike WFT, but she's not ever someone I would've cared about and I still don't.

"Surprise" is a stupid thing to gauge the merit of a character. I'd be "surprised" if the Michelin Man got revealed but that wouldn't suddenly make him cool and worthwhile.

 

[Pakky]

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

In the aspect of subverting expectations, I think you're right. Though think there's more bang when you introduced someone beloved and show how they work in Smash. are good examples.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I think I remember your username over at GameFAQs. Regardless, I am humbled that you still remember my works from all those years ago.

Here is what I wrote in regards to Ridley's long awaited confirmation (its a very long read, so please read only when you have time):
https://smashboards.com/threads/end...e-confirmation-of-ridley-at-long-last.455414/

Cool. Going to read it.
I am excited for ridley. All my friends messaged me the day of e3 because i was the only one in the group asking for Ridley.

 

[KMDP]

I don't get this logic.

For one, I doubt anyone who doesn't follow the Smash Bros. community closely would expect the likes of King K. Rool or Isaac. Neither character has been relevant for a while, but one is a classic, beloved villain and the other reps a series that was obscure but beloved.

Yes. They could be the 'surprises' this game. I mean, we wouldn't be surprised, but we aren't the only audience, now are we?

The Golden Sun will rise again.

 

[P.Kat]

Okay, let's play a hypotheticals game!

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is released and, shortly after release, Sakurai reveals that there will be an (in-game) online poll to determine an Assist Trophy/Pokéball to be promoted to playability.

The candidates are:

1. Waluigi
2. Krystal
3. Gardevoir
4. Lyn
5. Phosphora
6. Takamaru
7. Knuckles

Honorary mentions are Ashley and Isaac (who are unconfirmed but I would expect to be playable, however, I will list them to be on the safe side).

Spoiler: Example Character Playstyles

• Waluigi plays as the "Mario Spinoff Representative", his moveset involves using sports equipment (moreso than Peach and Daisy), throwing Dice (how the Dice Lands determines the effect, like Mr. Game & Watches flag), using DDR dance moves (the sole game where he was the main guy XD) and generating a "Stock Market Building" (like Dr. Wright). His Up Special is "Air Swimming", it's slow and does no damage, but Waluigi has a lot of control and can swim a long distance.
• Krystal is based almost entirely on Star Fox Adventures, using her Staff for everything. Fire Shots, Ice Shots, a ground slam, using it as a rocket, and also just beating people up with it. Her Final Smash causes a stampede of Dinosaurs.
• Gardevoir is sort of like a fusion between Zelda and Mewtwo, using Psychic and Fairy -type moves. Two of her Specials are the same as Mewtwo's (Confusion and Teleport), while she uses Moon Blast instead of Shadow Ball (which charges slower but travels faster), and Barrier to increase her Defense. Her basic attacks are more like Zelda's, and her Final Smash "Mega Black Hole", is very similar to Triforce of Wisdom.
• Lyn is a speed-based Swordswoman, though she also has a Bow in her Neutral Special. She shares Dancing Blade with the Marth archetype, but unlike them she is a lot more mobile during it. She also has Counter, which functions like her Assist Trophy attack (it's more like Lucario and Greninja's, having a slow wind-up and involving moving during the counter attack). The fact that she uses a Katana makes her functional damage range shorter than the Rapier of Marth, but she makes up for this with a lot of speed in her attacks.
• Phosphora can be summed up as a "Humanoid Pikachu", she combines electrical attacks with fast dancing movements. She is capable of limited gliding, making her better in the air than on the ground. Most of her attacks involve lobbing electricity of various shapes and sizes at her enemies in some way.
• Takamaru plays as a character in the same way as his Assist Trophy does, playing more like a historical Samurai than Lyn, who only uses a Katana (and Bow)... well, a Historical Samurai who also uses Fireballs. He is capable of throwing his Windwill Swords as with his Assist Trophy, but also can throw Throwing Knives. He is much more range based than other Sword-wielding Characters as a result.
• Knuckles is basically a translation of his gameplay from Sonic Games. While he can spindash like Sonic can, he is more powerful and relies moreso on Punching to get the job done. His Up Special is a rising uppercut, and like Peach he can glide through the air, though he does so at more of a downward angle. His Down Special allows him to dig into the ground, either to evade attacks, have a unconventional recovery in 'tower' stages, and to facility 'sneak' attacks on unwary foes.
• Ashley is a spellcaster, and like how Sheik is an archetypal Ninja, Ashley is an archetypal Witch. She can cast elemental spells (Fire, Electricity), summon vines to entrap enemies, cast debuffs on them and, in her Final Smash, turn people into Spoons, an item which she can then throw off the stage/out-of-bounds. Her up special turns Red into a Broom, which she can then fly on, it's similar to Villager's recovery, and Ashley can get knocked off through damage.
• While Isaac uses a sword in his basic attacks (with aid from his Djinni Sprites), he is a Geomancer in his Specials. He can use his Neutral Special (Quake) to create Blocks in the terrain, and his Side Special (Spire) to create Spikes out of the ground that hurt to land on (and can also be 'felled' like Villager's tree). If used in the Air, theses attacks drop out of the Sky instead (Spire has, naturally, a Spiking effect). His Down Special, Gaia, causes a beam of energy to erupt out of the ground (ending up like a Reverse Thunder if used in the Air), and it is capable of carving chunks out of the Ground, even out of the stage's ledge. Obviously, these alterations to the stage are temporary, and will go away after either a short period of time, or in the case of Quake and Spire, after enough damage is dealt to them. Isaac's Final Smash, Iris, gathers his full team (Garet, Ivan, Mia, Felix, Jenna, Sheba and Piers) and they collectively use the summon to launch caught enemies into the Sun.

You can only vote on one character (though you can say "Ashley/Isaac is they aren't already playable, otherwise [character]").

...Man, this took a long time to write (A full hour)!

Lyn in a heartbeat, (honorable mention goes to Krystal for 2nd place, Gardevoir for 3rd and Phosphora for 4th)

 

[Mega Bidoof]

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

Having obscure characters for the sake of obscure characters isn’t the point of Smash. Obscure characters aren’t even really a thing for really hardcore speculators like the people on this board. I already knew of every newcomer in Smash 4. Nobody was beyond my knowledge or the knowledge of anyone coming her to speculate in depth.

They’re really only truly obscure for casuals, and there are multiple fan favorites that the average person wouldn’t know.

The average casual gamer probably doesn’t know King K. Rool, Isaac, Geno, and may not even know Ashley or Skull Kid.

A good chunk, if not most of the hardcore Smash community’s fan favorites ARE obscure characters to the average non-forum-lurking Smash players.

 

[Zinith]

Not gonna lie, I would love it if Mike Jones was the "forgotten franchise" pick...

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: Big image

Alright, so the release date for Star Allies Wave 2 seems to be July 27th, if we're going to see this in a direct before the update goes live (I find that very likely) it's going to be this month. Perhaps we might see a Kirby newcomer soon.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think it would not only be more fun and more interesting to not rule out that fan favorites will be added but that we likely WILL get at least one unexpected character that will keep things fresh.

I think it’s entirely plausible that “not expecting too many new fighters” could be anything lower than what we’ve previously seen in any one installment of Smash. We received 18 characters in Brawl (16 on the select screen), 19 for Wii U/3DS, and 14 in Melee. Of the 14 in Melee, 6 required borrowed assets (we’ll just call them clones) to buff out the roster.

Really, I think it’s definitely possible we get at least 10, but no more than 12 newcomers. The Ultimate roster is already at a whopping 68 characters. As veterans still need to be balanced against each other, those who already were not balanced against anyone would take just as much time to balance as any newcomer. Young Link, Pichu, Ice Climbers, Wolf and Snake could effectively be counted toward the list of “newcomers”, and in addition to Daisy, Inklings and Ridley, results in 9 characters that weren’t previously in Smash Wii U.

Not counting the veterans that are returning, I still think we COULD receive another 7 (ish) newcomers, but I would certainly not expect significantly more than that.

That’s also not counting potential DLC.

EDIT: Wew lad, look at that! 6,000 posts!

 

[N3ON]

They need obscure characters in Smash. One of the appeals of Smash is getting introduced to franchises that you would've never heard of otherwise. That would be lost with an all fan favorites roster. The reveals would also be predictable because everyone would know who's being revealed, removing all sense of surprise.

If you include the fan-favourites the fans are happy, the casuals still get characters they know because not all fan favourites are obscure, and you get introduced to new characters because some fan favourites are obscure.

I don't see why people are against a fan-favourite-heavy roster.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Oh. There are a whole bunch of characters that fall into that boat. I think that this game will have some of those types of characters.

To remotely close to the level that Wii Fit Trainer did? No, besides maybe Corrin who was nonexistent in the gaming world at the time and was a pure promotional pick, but even then I saw some people thinking Corrin could get in from DLC and a few even wanting them. Smash 4's newcomer choices get slagged a lot for supposedly lacking fan favorite characters, and while it did have a heavy 2009-2012 recency slant to the picks and some omissions may have seem questionable, pretty much all the characters besides WFT, Dark Pit, and Corrin were very popular characters outside of Smash at the time (and Dark Pit doesn't count since he got in as an alt-costume clone while Corrin was a pure promotional pick as mentioned prior).

 

[Wyoming]

So what's this about the Luigi's Mansion remake? Why would it need a direct to be shown? Any specifics or just hope?

 

[Mega Bidoof]

"Surprise" is a stupid thing to gauge the merit of a character. I'd be "surprised" if the Michelin Man got revealed but that wouldn't suddenly make him cool and worthwhile.

Yeah! Michelin Man has his own merits as a newcomer outside of being a one-off surprise!

Anyone who wants Michelin Man purely as a “surprise character” isn’t a true supporter in my eyes!

 

[Idon]

I don't get this logic.

For one, I doubt anyone who doesn't follow the Smash Bros. community closely would expect the likes of King K. Rool or Isaac. Neither character has been relevant for a while, but one is a classic, beloved villain and the other reps a series that was obscure but also beloved (as well as being one of the best series on the GBA).

On the other hand, a "surprise" like Wii Fit Trainer is basically a gimmick. It's like "Wow okay that's weird" when she's revealed and then that goes away. Nobody asked for WFT, nobody cared about WFT. She's not a surprise anymore, she's just a weird member of the roster that essentially lives as a reminder of that time that Nintendo marketed to soccer moms and grandparents. For the record I don't dislike WFT, but she's not ever someone I would've cared about and I still don't.

"Surprise" is a stupid thing to gauge the merit of a character. I'd be "surprised" if the Michelin Man got revealed but that wouldn't suddenly make him cool and worthwhile.

MICHELIN MAN ROLLS IN!

 

[Zippo]

We already know a unique, made from scratch character takes around 6 months of development thanks to Mewtwo. Bayonetta definitely was started on before October 2015.



Spring Man is pretty similar to Robin in the sense that whilst both of them can be considered vanilla in their own home franchise, they both represents the essence of their franchise. You can look at Spring Man and instantly get what ARMS is all about. At any rate, Spring Man would be a pretty cool addition and he gets way too much dislike for supposedly being "boring".

Just wanted to say, I agree with this 100%. I'd take Spring Man and/or Ribbon Girl over someone like Twintelle any day. They have way better designs.

 

[KMDP]

Hmm... you know, I'd like to hear a Metroid song like this in Smash.

Go full Ridley Scott/John Carpenter with the atmosphere of the song. XD

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Just wanted to say, I agree with this 100%. I'd take Spring Man and/or Ribbon Girl over someone like Twintelle any day. They have way better designs.

Elaborate on your sinful claim you heretic

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Spoiler: Big image

View attachment 151769

Alright, so the release date for Star Allies Wave 2 seems to be July 27th, if we're going to see this in a direct before the update goes live (I find that very likely) it's going to be this month. Perhaps we might see a Kirby newcomer soon.

While I'd love for this to be true and us to get another direct in the next month it's not very likely. ARMS had free dlc and it was never specifically in a direct, I think these little announcements are enough for free DLC (it would be different if it was paid and they had to advertise it to sell it).

Well atleast I'll have new characters to play on the 27th!

 

[Zinith]

What I'm looking for is when that Direct that will have the new Yoshi game (if Bill Trinen is to be believed) comes around, it will also show what's been done in Smash for him as a fighter and/or new Yoshi series content like a stage or Assist Trophies...

 

[DarkFalcon]

I want a new WarioWare trailer. They've barely talked about it since the reveal until the demo stuff that recently came out. It looks so good. Last chance to do something for it this month before release.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

https://smashboards.com/threads/in-...star-fox-bayonetta-and-splatoon-added.456277/

Hey all, I updated the comprehensive song list for the entire Smash Bros. series.

This time I added all Metroid, Star Fox, Bayonetta and Splatoon tracks.

Go ahead and take a look. I found some interesting patterns. See if you can find any!

 

[Zippo]

Elaborate on your sinful claim you heretic

Lol. I just don't care for Twintelle's design, though I love most of the cast, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl just have way more appealing designs, I'd be hyped as crazy if either or both made it in.

 

[P.Kat]

You know, Heihachi is cool and all, but when are we getting Kyo or Terry?

Never, we're all getting Hotaru Futaba and we'll all are gonna like it