Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zeox]

If there is another big third party rep... why wasn't show in the E3 with Ridley?
Is the perfect moment for something like that, just like megaman in smash 4.

 

[RandomAce]

Sakurai saying "Don't expect as many newcomers" is purely a blanket statement for damage control. He's said similar things in the past.

I do think the number will be less, but I also think it's not going to be by that noteable of a margin. He's had just as much time as any other Smash game.

This game seems to be the game with the least roadblocks.

-It doesn’t have to share the time with another version.

-There doesn’t seem to be a mode that is extremely time consuming (RIP Subspace, hopefully there is something like this soon).

-The game reuses and repurpose the systems and assets from Smash 4 (like the main custom engine, character models, and updated them).

-The game has the same development time as Brawl and Smash 4.

After what Bill Trinen said about Sakurai not being stressed out at all this game and everything going as plan. I think Sakurai has enough time to add new content and bring many veteran content along as well. There just isn’t anything that is stopping them from making the game it’s best it can be.

People should probably treat the old veterans returning as newcomers for all intent and purposes. Same thing as Clones/Echoes.

If you're looking for 16-18 newcomers, you need to take Squirtle, Ivysaur, Pichu, Wolf, Ice Climbers, Snake, Young Link, Daisy, Ridley and Inkling into account. That leaves you with 7-9 more characters with some of that number being Echo Fighters. At Best.

You simply can’t put Veterans in with Newcomers.

Veterans were all planned from the start of this game’s development. This and with them already having movesets and models they can easily use as reference makes development for veterans much faster than it will ever be for newcomers and even faster with clones like Young Link and Pichu. The process for getting them in is just radically different than newcomers.

Newcomers first need to be selected from Sakurai, whether it be from the ballot or recent games. Then Sakurai looks at their potential move set and decides if they are worth making the cut. Then Sakurai and his team needs to make completely new models, movesets, sounds, so they will take much longer than the veterans that came back.

Clones/Echoes take little to no development time and weren’t in the original plan to begin with. It’s more likely that Sakurai didn’t even pick which echoes/clones to make because they are made around the end of development. They shouldn’t be counted at all.

 

[Murlough]

So... I know it's doubtful, but does anyone think the newfound Tennis trend of Bowser Jr. being equivalent to Brawl Meta Knight will transfer over to this game?

...just buff the poor kid, Sakurai. He has no reason to be worse than Mario in a Doctor's outfit and the only core Mario character that's a literal joke while the rest are all upper-mid to top tier.

Let him always get his car back if hes hit for **** sakes! I felt so bad because my friend wanted to main him for like a week and gave up because I kept walking offstage and hitting him with soft nairs. Why is trying to recover a death sentence for him lmao.

 

[CJ Falcon]

I really don't understand where all this "LOL Sakurai's a prankster" nonsense is coming from. Is it because he made a couple lame jokes in the directs? I honestly don't understand.

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, I'm not even gonna bother trying to read into Sakurai's statement.

I expected around 10 newcomers walking into E3 and that's what I'm sticking with. Might be off by one or two, but I'm not expecting anything far worse or far better than that.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If there is another big third party rep... why wasn't show in the E3 with Ridley?
Is the perfect moment for something like that, just like megaman in smash 4.

Saving it for a reveal alongside a game in that series maybe?

I think they'd reveal it either at:
a) A big event, like CEO or EVO
or
b) A direct right before the game releases, to drum up hype and close sales.

I really don't understand where all this "LOL Sakurai's a prankster" nonsense is coming from. Is it because he made a couple lame jokes in the directs? I honestly don't understand.

The dude said, "we're reaching the upper limit of characters to add" and then proceeded to add more characters than Brawl did. He's said Villiager and Pac-Man can't fight and then BAM they're in Smash 4. He said Ridley is too big twice and then added him into Ultimate. Those are a few examples of him "misleading" (that word seems too negative but it gets the point across) the fanbase, leading to hype when he does.

 

[Chandeelure]

Adeleine confirmed.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This went from funny to scary really fast lol.

 

[Dracyoshi]

Primarina is really underrated, they deserve better than those rankings on the last page. Though, I'm a bit hypocritical... I chose Rowlet instead for my playthrough and later regretted it. (btw: If we get another Pokemon in Smash then I'd like to have Grovyle. A great Pokémon that was a major character in the Mystery Dungeon series.)

Also, I'm expecting around 4 - 6 newcomers. Personally, I do feel like we're reaching the upper limit. Hard to think of ideas without delving too deep into the realm of third parties or characters that might as well just be an echo fighter.

 

[KMDP]

If there is another big third party rep... why wasn't show in the E3 with Ridley?
Is the perfect moment for something like that, just like megaman in smash 4.

If they show a trailer for a big third party rep at or around the time the game releases, that'll really get the ball rolling. It's just as good as e3, as far as timing goes.

EDIT: 'd by DaybreakHorizon .

Saving it for a reveal alongside a game in that series maybe?

This is why I think they'll reveal Tails and/or Shadow during July, Sonic Mania Plus comes out in July.

 

[Opossum]

I come bearing "gifts" from 4chan. The count has been updated.

Spoiler: Leak 1

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/421999854/#421999854
Nintendo has been telling people that what we've been shown of Smash Bros Ultimate is just the tip of the iceberg, and they weren't kidding. The full roster is being passed around and it’s clear they want this game to be the definitive Smash. Sakurai's comment on not many new fighters was a feint so he can shatter expectations. I find this roster hard to believe myself but I trust my source.

Newcomers
>Inkling
>Ridley
>Paper Mario
>K. Rool
>Dixie Kong
>Ashley
>Waddle Dee
>Decidueye
>Slippy
>Viridi
>Chorus Kids
>Excitebike
>Geno
>Banjo-Kazooie

Echo Fighters
>Daisy
>Isabelle
>Dark Samus
>Impa
>Chrom
>Black Shadow
>Louie
>Shadow

Spoiler: Leak 2

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/421999849/#421999849
Ashley reveal in July
Elma reveal in August/September
Simon reveal in October
K. Rool reveal in November

Spoiler: Leak 3

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/422041530/#422041530
The next two character reveals will be Alm from Fire Emblem Echoes and Spring Man from ARMS. Alm is Ike’s echo fighter and his final smash is Scendscale. Yes, he is also left handed in game. Mila’s Temple will also be revealed being a new stage. Spring Man will be revealed alongside Spring Stadium as a new stage. His final smash is summoning Hedlok and initiating a Rush attack.

Also, this is the DEFINITIVE Starter Tier List right here:

S: Charizard, Blaziken, Sceptile, Greninja, Decidueye
A: Blastoise, Feraligatr, Infernape, Serperior, Incineroar, Pikachu, Eevee
B: Venasaur, Typhlosion. Swampert, Empoleon
C: Torterra, Samurott, Delphox, Primarina
D: Meganium, Emboar
F: Chesnaught

Can I just talk about leak number three for a moment? Because my god.

Alm as an Echo Fighter of Ike literally makes zero sense whatsoever. Even ignoring the difference in build, their fighting styles are literally nothing alike. Like, I don't know how the fake leaker can be knowledgable enough to point out that Alm is left handed but at the same time not take fighting style into account. If anything, Alm's swordplay is closer to Roy's, minus the few reverse grip moves.

Or the weirdness of giving Alm one of Celica's maps as a stage, for that matter, despite the fact that Ram Village, Fleecer's Forest, Nuibaba's Abode, Fear Mountain, the Sluice Gate, Zofia Castle, Rigel Castle, and the Altar of Duma are all locations on Alm's route that'd be prime stage material.

It just reeks a lot of "make this character an echo for no reason" to me, which sucks considering it'd be a complete bastardization of Alm's fighting style. Like, as a Chrom fan, I can admit that Chrom could feasibly take Ike's moves with little sticking out as odd (really only the jabs and throws are a stretch). But basically NONE of Ike's moves fit Alm.

Honestly I'd love it if Alm somehow got in. I prefer Celica since she's my third favorite Fire Emblem character, but I still love Alm as well (for reference he's somewhere in my top twenty-five). But Alm with Ike's moveset wouldn't be Alm.

/rant

 

[SmashingXan2]

I hope we get another new remix soon. I'm really happy with what we have so far, and I can't wait to hear the rest of this game's soundtrack!


I guess we're getting K Rool then.

YES!!!

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

You know what I'm both looking forward to and not looking forward to?

Looking forward to:
Seeing who gets confirmed and comparing that to the character count

Not looking forward to:
Sifting through every leak when a character is confirmed to see which ones are still viable.

Also new text leak. These things are a dime a dozen really.

Spoiler: Leak

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/422057246
Items:
DK Animal Box - Rhino/Ostrich
Glowing Poison Skull - All characters slowly take 20% damage over ten seconds
Clove of Garlic - enemies temporarily stunned in small area by a purple odor
Flipper is back
Fan is back
Probably more than that

New pokeball pokemon:
Haunter - moves one character to a different spot and then licks him/her for 15% damage slight stun
Cofagrigus - traps someone in the sarcophagus for a few seconds, enemy takes 25% damage and is released

New characters:
Mach Rider - always on bike, has a gun
King K. Rool - heaviest character in the game
Geno - why?
Simon Belmont - Dracula's castle is his stage, Dracula is a stage hazard
Dark Samus (Echo) - pretty much samus
Funky Kong (Echo) - DK Clone, final smash has a tsunami
Metal Mario (Echo) - again, why? Metal box is an item so this was a questionable addition imo

Take it or leave it

 

[Polan]

If there is another big third party rep... why wasn't show in the E3 with Ridley?
Is the perfect moment for something like that, just like megaman in smash 4.

i mean cloud was shown off in a random direct and pac-man was revealed at a closed off dev roundtable and not at the e3 direct proper. nintendo can be real weird about smash reveals sometimes.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah and maybe Sakurai's secretly got every character ever in Smash.

I'd prefer to go with the Occam's Razor approach of just going with the prediction that has the least amount of assumptions.


And no, you can't just respond to all skepticism with "Hey, it's Sakurai! You never know with that guuuuuy!"

And this kind of attitude is why I sometimes regret posting at all. I literally said I'm not expecting that many newcomers.
I can't wait for the Pokemon newcomer to get revealed so that I'll finally be able to quit Smash Speculation.

 

[RandomAce]

If there is another big third party rep... why wasn't show in the E3 with Ridley?
Is the perfect moment for something like that, just like megaman in smash 4.

EVO?

I mean a lot of companies reveal stuff there. And Nintendo started getting into the esports scene, so if they want they can wipe everyone out with a character reveal and even Smash direct if they wanted to, they can.

It makes sense since EVO is the biggest fighting game and Smash tournament.

 

[_Sheik]

You know it always leaves a sour taste in my mouth whenever people make a leak or a prediction list that includes "all the most likely newcomers" but Isaac is always nowhere to be seen.

It's sad we didn't see him as an AT at the very least; only makes the wait tougher...

 

[domriver]

I personally thought King K Rool would be revealed with the DLC to Mario + Rabbids sadly nothing

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Has anyone considered that Smash 5 was revealed in MARCH 2018 and is set to be released in DEC 7 2018? Since March we only had 2 unique characters revealed (Inklings and Ridley). There is only 5 months (give or take) left before the game is released. I will state it again; if there is no hidden characters in Smash Ultimate than we may very well have less than 8 newcomers this time around unless Sakurai is planning on revealing multiple characters EACH month. It's not surprising that people are only speculating around 7 new fighters considering the unusual short amount of time between unveil and release and with the fact the e3 direct and tree-house showed a crap ton of information in one setting.

I hope people are not counting Dr. Mario / Lucina/ Dark Pit as newcomers in Smash 4 to make the argument that he created a lot of unique characters. Subtract 3 from Smash 4 newcomers. Where are people getting 17 newcomers in Smash 4 at launch ????!?? Considering this subject is about time development then we need to eliminated the clones / costumes/ that would take us to 14 and looking on the Smash Website; I only see 12 characters (excluding Mii's) that was fresh and new in Smash 4. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Villager
Palutena
Mega-Man
Pac-Man
Little-Mac
Shulk
Robin
Duck Hunt
Bowser Jr
Rosalina and Luma
Greninja
Wii Fit Trainer

I am not including the Mii's since a ton of their moves are just taken from other fighters not to mention many people do not like the Mii's at all.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Let him always get his car back if hes hit for **** sakes! I felt so bad because my friend wanted to main him for like a week and gave up because I kept walking offstages and hitting him with soft nairs. Why is trying to recover a death sentence for him lmao.

To be fair, he's a fun troll characrer for casual play.

But yeah, please don't make him terrible. I've grown fond of the little guy despite hating on him in the past.

I still feel like he'll be low tier again though

 

[KMDP]

And this kind of attitude is why I sometimes regret posting at all. I literally said I'm not expecting that many newcomers.
I can't wait for the Pokemon newcomer to get revealed so that I'll finally be able to quit Smash Speculation.

All you said was that what Sakurai said could be interpreted in multiple ways, including as a calculated lie/smokescreen to obfuscate that the opposite was actually true. I don't believe you ever actually said you believe that to be the case.
I actually got what you meant.

 

[Deleted member]

Guybrush20X6 is struck by an insane idea

Blaziken as Chun-li Echo!

That....strangely works.....

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Has anyone considered that Smash 5 was revealed in MARCH 2018 and is set to be released in DEC 7 2018? Since March we only had 2 unique characters revealed (Inklings and Ridley). There is only 5 months (give or take) left before the game released. I will state it again; if there is no hidden characters in Smash Ultimate than we may very well have less than 8 newcomers this time around unless Sakurai is planning on revealing multiple characters a month.

I hope people are not counting Dr. Mario / Lucina/ Dark Pit as newcomers in Smash 4 to make the argument that he created a lot of unique characters. Subtract 3 from Smash 4 newcomers. Where are people getting 17 newcomers in Smash 4 at launch ????!?? Considering this subject is about time development then we need to eliminated the clones / costumes/ that would take us to 14 and looking on the Smash Website; I only see 12 characters (excluding Mii's) that was fresh and new in Smash 4. Correct me if I'm wrong.

To be fair though, three of those months were dead air. They're not going to reveal more characters until they, you know, actually reveal the game.

Also 17 characters is an accurate count. Each Mii was a "fresh and new" character, and the clones still count as new characters. We should count them as well, seeing that we have echo fighters now.

I do agree on about 8 newcomers. However, I see us getting 8 unique newcomers, and then 3-4 more echoes to pad out the roster.

 

[KMDP]

EVO?

I mean a lot of companies reveal stuff there. And Nintendo started getting into the esports scene, so if they want they can wipe everyone out with a character reveal and even Smash direct if they wanted to, they can.

It makes sense since EVO is the biggest fighting game and Smash tournament.

Calling it now, Nintendo will reveal Incineroar, the wrestler, as a Newcomer at EVO, the competitive fighting game show.

 

[Opossum]

You know, beyond him being my favorite Champion and the fact that I love Gorons, part of why I'd love to see Daruk in Smash is to see the inevitable trailer joke of him being freaked out by Duck Hunt.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

To be fair though, three of those months were dead air. They're not going to reveal more characters until they, you know, actually reveal the game.

Also 17 characters is an accurate count. Each Mii was a "fresh and new" character, and the clones still count as new characters. We should count them as well, seeing that we have echo fighters now.

I do agree on about 8 newcomers. However, I see us getting 8 unique newcomers, and then 3-4 more echoes to pad out the roster.

However the argument and subject matter at hand was the amount of time that is needed to add characters. People were adding in Lucina / Dark Pit/ Dr. Mario and the Miis as newcomers (TO INFLATE SMASH 4) as if they took the same amount of time as the unique fighters that was unveiled during Smash 4 time. While they are technically newcomers; it is a false equivalency to lump them in with regards to the subject of time constraints and the amount of characters that each game received. Mii's have a lot of there move-set taken from other fighters; to suggest they took the same amount of time to develop as villager or Rosalina would be false.

Sakurai has already commented that he questions / worries wither or not he can finish the game before Dec 7. Melee had a short development time that Sakurai pointed and stressed over about and we received Falco, Ganondorf, Young Link, Pichu, Roy, Dr. Mario as clones / semi-clones. Time is a key factor here.

 

[Murlough]

Calling it now, Nintendo will reveal Incineroar, the wrestler, as a Newcomer at EVO, the competitive fighting game show.

Please, cease this blasphemy. Mimikyu reveal is happening on Halloween.

They can announce Chun Li at EVO.

That way my poor wittle heart won't be shattered.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

To be fair though, three of those months were dead air. They're not going to reveal more characters until they, you know, actually reveal the game.

I think he's suggesting that they would have made a formal reveal much earlier if they had a plethora of newcomers that had to be revealed pre-release, after all the game is already very far in development, so they should be ready to at least be revealed. That in combination with us only getting one unique newcomer at E3 also suggests to me that Sakurai probably wasn't bluffing.

I think everyone is probably better off taking his statement at face value for now, even regardless of all that.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, that was a condescending response.

There was a bit of a bandwagon effect due to Sceptile being a starter, sure, and the Hoenn games having remakes created opportunity. But to say that's all Sceptile had isn't "factual".

Outside of that, Sceptile and Blaziken both had merits. Both Pokemon were popular starters that were prominent in the show. Both Pokemon had plenty of potential to be unique additions. Both could've filled an interesting niche. Sceptile's potential is what made people like the idea of his inclusion, not just due to him being a "Grass starter." His moveset in Pokken provided a good idea for what he could do in Smash, and I still think he'd be a great addition.

I've no interest in carrying this conversation further.

In an alternate universe where we got Chesnaught instead of Greninja, literally none of that would matter for Sceptile. People would have been flocking to Swampert instead regardless of what "merits" it had.
Even mentioning Sceptile would have people questioning why when we already have Chesnaught to fill the role of the Grass Starter.

This is what I'm getting at. If you still want to refuse to accept the truth, that's on you.
The only reason it had support to begin with was to "fill the gap".

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Let's get this out of the way: not every stage is coming back.

The biggest reveal is that not every stage will be returning like every character will be.

"Not all past stages are going to be in the game but a whole lot of them will." (2) pic.twitter.com/dCM1WAMTkq

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 26, 2018

 

[Murlough]

Let's get this out of the way: not every stage is coming back.

The biggest reveal is that not every stage will be returning like every character will be.

"Not all past stages are going to be in the game but a whole lot of them will." (2) pic.twitter.com/dCM1WAMTkq

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 26, 2018

Good keep Lylat. All stages but Lylat. Love ya Sakurai.

(Is Lylat already confirmed? It totally is isn't it....)

 

[smashkirby]

So, I just REALLY wanted to post this here real quick:

Hey if Sakurai can go the extra mile then so can I!
(ps I decided not to edit link) #smashbros #gaming #nintendo pic.twitter.com/m6tPjQH0im

— SPOOKYDEAD💀SKULLHEAD (@MikeLuckas) June 25, 2018

And here's the full pic.

Spoiler

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Good keep Lylat. All stages but Lylat. Love ya Sakurai.

(Is Lylat already confirmed? It totally is isn't it....)

Pretty sure Lylat was confirmed. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Dracyoshi]

Let's get this out of the way: not every stage is coming back.

The biggest reveal is that not every stage will be returning like every character will be.

"Not all past stages are going to be in the game but a whole lot of them will." (2) pic.twitter.com/dCM1WAMTkq

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 26, 2018

oh no. This lowers the chances for Fountain of Dreams...

 

[Deleted member]

Let's get this out of the way: not every stage is coming back.

The biggest reveal is that not every stage will be returning like every character will be.

"Not all past stages are going to be in the game but a whole lot of them will." (2) pic.twitter.com/dCM1WAMTkq

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 26, 2018

>Fountain of Dreams is still unconfirmed as of now
>mfw

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Let's get this out of the way: not every stage is coming back.

The biggest reveal is that not every stage will be returning like every character will be.

"Not all past stages are going to be in the game but a whole lot of them will." (2) pic.twitter.com/dCM1WAMTkq

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) June 26, 2018

I thought as much, given how many Pokemon stages are doubled on Pokemon backgrounds on the character pages.

Pokefloats for DLC?

 

[KMDP]

Good keep Lylat. All stages but Lylat. Love ya Sakurai.

(Is Lylat already confirmed? It totally is isn't it....)

There's probably only one stage not coming back and it's probably Miiverse.

Please, cease this blasphemy. Mimikyu reveal is happening on Halloween.

They can announce Chun Li at EVO.

That way my poor wittle heart won't be shattered.

 

[Zinith]

So... I know it's doubtful, but does anyone think the newfound Tennis trend of Bowser Jr. being equivalent to Brawl Meta Knight will transfer over to this game?

...just buff the poor kid, Sakurai. He has no reason to be worse than Mario in a Doctor's outfit and the only core Mario character that's a literal joke while the rest are all upper-mid to top tier.

Wario and Yoshi (and probably Bowser soon) are not upper-mid to top-tier. Bowser Jr. and Dr. Mario aren't the only ones...

 

[Guybrush20X6]

When is EVO BTW?

 

[Dracyoshi]

They should've combined both Pokemon Stadiums into a Pokemon Stadium X like Flat Zone! Hazardless could remove some of the more problematic forms.

 

[SmashingXan2]

When is EVO BTW?

August 3-5