Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Lady Byakugan]

Yoshi originated in a game with "Mario" in the title. Donkey Kong did not. Not to mention, the DK series doesn't bring over characters from the Mario series like Yoshi does with the Mario Bros., Shy Guys, Kamek, Bowser, Koopas, etc. Don't see How DKC belongs to the Mario universe.

DK totally does belong in the Mario universe. The original Donkey Kong has both Marito and DK, Mario Super Sluggers features many DK characters including K. Rool, New Donk City is a whole city referencing not only DK but his own sub-series as well. I mean, what? How is DK not part of the Mario universe?

 

[Deleted member]

I think people saying DK is underrepresented fail to realize DK is a subseries of Mario, much like Yoshi. That said, I still want more reps for it, but that point still needs to be acknowledged.

And speaking of which, I want Pauline as a DK rep

DK has enough content to stand on it’s own two feet, calling it a sub-series of Mario feels like an unnecessary demotion to the series.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

View attachment 149991

View attachment 149992

He's on two.

 

[Enderwoman]

DK totally does belong in the Mario universe. The original Donkey Kong has both Marito and DK, Mario Super Sluggers features many DK characters including K. Rool, New Donk City is a whole city referencing not only DK but his own sub-series as well. I mean, what? How is DK not part of the Mario universe?

You could say that, since there is a lot of overlap in Donkey Kong's appearances in Mario games. However, the Donkey Kong COUNTRY series does more than enough to set itself apart from Mario games to the point where it's essentially it's own universe. Look at any one of the Donkey Kong Country games and tell me it's a part of the Mario universe.


by the way mario is technically a donkey kong subseries

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I think the semantics about Mario or DK being subseries of each other matters very little to none on the chances of K Rool, Dixie etc. I'm not sure exactly why it's relevant?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

The Chronicles version is my all time favorite Simon design but really any of his designs will work.

Honestly, I just hope his alts are call outs or alts to the other Belmont’s that’d be soooo ****in dope.

Alucard > Simon
fact

Fiction

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Personally if Lara was given the okay to use her double pistols? It'd be easy to make her using specials from Bayonetta and Link.

I'd make her neutral be like Bayo's neutral and she fires her dual pistols ahead.

One of her A attacks could be a bow and arrow to show reboot Lara's affinity for it. You could potentially borrow something from Link to do this.

Up B would be either throwing a bungie/rope to the stage ala classic Lara or if you wanted her to have really limited recovery? Her climbing axe from the reboot.

Side B? I'd have her dodge a wild animal to reference the numerous wild life she comes in her travels, it would attack the person nearest to her instead. Potential for it to be a counter attack as well.

Down B, she could throw a grenade down at the ground that causes a limited explosion.

 

[KMDP]

He's on two.

K. Rool has two box-arts versus Dixie's five. And Dixie starred in her own game (technically two), with a subtitle referencing her by name (If you believe the commercials, Nintendo marketing wanted Kiddy Kong to be the star, for some ungodly reason. XD)

Characters like K. Rool already has a crazy moveset made for him. It'd be pretty easy to put him in Smash. He checks all the boxes similar to Ridley, though unlike Ridley, K. Rool's problem is relevancy. I don't really agree with that being a reason to keep him out though.

K. Rool's relevancy problem can be easily fixed by, you know, actually using him. C'mon, Nintendo, SHAPE UP!

 

[Lady Byakugan]

DK has enough content to stand on it’s own two feet. Calling a sub-series of Mario feels like an unnecessary demotion to the series.

Well it is no matter how you look at it, since the two are heavily connected, much like Rayman and the Rabbids.

And I never said DK can't stand on it's own two feet. It can, much like Warioware, but acting like they are detached from mario like zelda is dishonest imo since most people who see these characters know they are part of the mario series since they constantly appear in the spin off sports, parties, and racing, while you even have things like Mario VS Donkey or baby versions of Mario, Wario, and DK in Yoshi games.

 

[Just a random scrub]

This is super cool! Fan made btw

This actually kinda makes me want him in Smash now.

Yoshi originated in a game with "Mario" in the title. Donkey Kong did not. Not to mention, the DK series doesn't bring over characters from the Mario series like Yoshi does with the Mario Bros., Shy Guys, Kamek, Bowser, Koopas, etc. Don't see How DKC belongs to the Mario universe.

Honestly, I'd say the Donkey Kong Country series isn't technically a spinoff of Mario. I consider both the Mario series and the Donkey Kong Country series to be spinoffs of the original arcade game.

 

[CJ Falcon]

DK totally does belong in the Mario universe. The original Donkey Kong has both Marito and DK, Mario Super Sluggers features many DK characters including K. Rool, New Donk City is a whole city referencing not only DK but his own sub-series as well. I mean, what? How is DK not part of the Mario universe?

-The DKC series and the Mario series as they are now have little to do with the original Donkey Kong arcade game.
-Link and Animal Crossing characters were in Mario Kart. Are they part of the Mario Universe?
-References are just references. There are plenty of video games that make references to completely separate franchises. Samus' spaceship was in Tropical Freeze. Is she part of the DK universe too? Oh wait, I mean is she part of the Mario Universe too?

 

[Knight Dude]

Lara's issue is that in her most iconic form? She uses very real double pistols. There's no way around doing Lara Croft without the double pistols even the reboot series that have tried to distance from them and the movie that spun out of them acknowledge Lara's double pistols.

I don't know if Bayo changed anything about guns rule wise (her guns are red and blue after all in both her appearances and she wears them on her heels as well) but if she did then Lara should be fine, but the fact her weapons still have an element of whimsy and fantasy? She might not have.

Yeah, that's my biggest worry too. Obviously Lara has other stuff to use, knives, grappling hooks, grenade launchers ect. But the twin pistols are a trademark, much like the DJ Jazzy Jeff shades.

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

I like the Conan the Barbarian styled one the most. But I have a feeling more people would like the other version.

 

[Fenriraga]

To be honest, Simon is probably the least interesting Belmont in the series... If not one of the least interesting characters in the series period. If given the choice, I'd put a handful of Castlevania characters before him.

Of course, the same can be said about a LOT of first-time protagonists of a series. And he OBVIOUSLY has to be the Smash rep, that's not even a debate. Simon's still coo.

 

[papagenos]

DK can definitely stand on its own, its really strange how associated it is with mario still to this day (being in the sports games and such) while at the same time having a cast of characters and enemies that could actually rival the amount the mario series itself has.

 

[KMDP]

To be honest, Simon is probably the least interesting Belmont in the series....

Just like Jonathan Joestar... *manly tear*

 

[DarkFalcon]

DK's origins can be tied to Mario but nowadays it's its own series. Nobody would say K. Rool is a Mario character despite appearing in that Mario Baseball game.

 

[Will]

Here's a mini-list because I'm really bored. Basically, third parties that aren't including the ones from series that were already included in the game. That means no Sonic, Bayonetta, Mega Man, Street Fighter, PAC-MAN (then again who's asking for more), Metal Gear, or Final Fantasy.

Spoiler: SEGA

- Akira Yuki (Virtua Fighter)
- Ryo Hazuki (Shenmue)
- Hostuma (Shinobi)
- Ichiro Ogami (Sakura Wars)
- Erica Fontaine (Sakura Wars)
- Kazuma Kiryu (Yakuza)
- Goro Majima (Yakuza)
- Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)
- Segata Sanshiro (Sega Saturn)

Spoiler: Capcom

- Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
- Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
- Nemesis T (Resident Evil)
- Dante (Devil May Cry)
- Captain Commando (Captain Commando)
- Arthur (Ghosts n' Goblins)
- Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)
- Demetri Maximoff (Darkstalkers)
- Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
- Felicia (Darkstalkers)
- Mike Haggar (Final Fight)
- Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter)
- Nathan Spener (Bionic Commando)
- Hayato (Star Gladiator)
- Viewtiful Joe (Viewtiful Joe)

Spoiler: Konami

- Simon Belmont (Castlevania)
- Alucard (Castlevania)
- Dracula (Castlevania)
- Bill Rizer or Lance Bean (Contra)
- Bomberman (Bomberman)
- Frogger (Frogger)
- Gradius (Gradius)
- Sparkster (Rocket Night)

Spoiler: Bandai Namco

- Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
- Ivy (Soul Calibur)
- Jin Kazama (Tekken)
- Heicachi Mishima (Tekken)
- Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia)
- Agumon (Digimon)
- Chosen Undead (Dark Souls)

Spoiler: Square Enix

- Cooking Mama (Cooking Mama)
- Geno (Super Mario RPG)
- 2B (Nier: Automata)
- Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
- Tiz Arrior (Bravely)

Spoiler: New Challenger

Microsoft, what are you doing?
- Banjo (Banjo & Kazooie)
- Steve (Minecraft)
- Master Chief (Halo)
- Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
- Orchid (Killer Instinct)
- Jago (Killer Instinct)
- Any Battletoad (Battletoads)

These are all candidates that can be chosen. Does it mean they're probable? 98% definite no, but they're options for entirely new candidates nonetheless. It shows how big of a pool you can choose from and how dead most of these series are. Hopefully I didn't forget anyone that was notable enough.

 

[Enchess]

Well it is no matter how you look at it, since the two are heavily connected, much like Rayman and the Rabbids.

And I never said DK can't stand on it's own two feet. It can, much like Warioware, but acting like they are detached from mario like zelda is dishonest imo since most people who see these characters know they are part of the mario series since they constantly appear in the spin off sports, parties, and racing, while you even have things like Mario VS Donkey or baby versions of Mario, Wario, and DK in Yoshi games.

No one would ever call Rayman a subseries of Rabbids just because they are connected and Rabbids is more popular. The two series aren't similar and if you didn't play the games where they explicitly cross over you wouldn't know. This is not true with Mario and Yoshi series. It's easy for anyone who's played Mario to know Yoshi is same universe with only playing Yoshi Story. DKC wouldn't make a casual playing say "hey, does this take place in world with Mario?".

Plus, if either is a subseries, Mario is a subseries of DK because DK is the original. Even if Rabbids did heavily connect to Rayman in a more meaningful way, still no one would call Rayman a subseries of Rabbids.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

K. Rool has two box-arts versus Dixie's five. And Dixie starred in her own game (technically two), with a subtitle referencing her by name (If you believe the commercials, Nintendo marketing wanted Kiddy Kong to be the star, for some ungodly reason. XD)

K. Rool's relevancy problem can be easily fixed by, you know, actually using him. C'mon, Nintendo, SHAPE UP!

It could be three if that one GameBoy one counts.

Still, he HAS had marketing (animated series helps cement this) and is still considered the main villain of his franchise who was advertized as part of an update in Sm4sh that showed off Mii Costumes.

I think that's good enough.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

The Chronicles version is my all time favorite Simon design but really any of his designs will work.

Honestly, I just hope his alts are call outs or alts to the other Belmont’s that’d be soooo ****in dope.

Which Belmonts would you like him to draw from in particular?

 

[Will]

Just like Jonathan Joestar... *manly tear*

Actually, Simon is the third Belmont I believe.

 

[KMDP]

- Nightmare (Soul Calibur)

I legit think Nightmare would be a great addition to Smash. A big, slow fighter with REALLY HEFTY sword swings (and therefore massive damage and knockback), who recovers a bit of health when he damages you would be a niche, fun fighter. Not to mention the crossover that still hasn't been repayed from 2002!

- Agumon (Digimon)

As a Digimon fan, all the yes.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

DK can definitely stand on its own, its really strange how associated it is with mario still to this day (being in the sports games and such) while at the same time having a cast of characters and enemies that could actually rival the amount the mario series itself has.

But it's also really weird that despite DK appearing in games like mario kart and party, they're reluctant to use other DK stuff for some reason, Diddy, Dixie, K Rool and the rest of the kongs are significantly more interesting and unique than half of the characters in mario kart yet they're not used, I guess they just want the two to remain separate.

 

[KMDP]

But it's also really weird that despite DK appearing in games like mario kart and party, they're reluctant to use other DK stuff for some reason, Diddy, Dixie, K Rool and the rest of the kongs are significantly more interesting and unique than half of the characters in mario kart yet they're not used, I guess they just want the two to remain separate.

Maybe they don't trust themselves to use Rare's stuff well? I mean, that might actually be it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

But it's also really weird that despite DK appearing in games like mario kart and party, they're reluctant to use other DK stuff for some reason, Diddy, Dixie, K Rool and the rest of the kongs are significantly more interesting and unique than half of the characters in mario kart yet they're not used, I guess they just want the two to remain separate.

It is interesting that Diddy's going to be in the new Mario Party, at least according to MarioWiki.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

Characters like K. Rool already has a crazy moveset made for him. It'd be pretty easy to put him in Smash.

Would it really, though?

 

[MainJPW]

-Link and Animal Crossing characters were in Mario Kart. Are they part of the Mario Universe?

But they’re just DLC, they aren’t mainstays like DK.

DK has appeared as a playable character in every Kart game, every Party title save 4, every Tennis game except Mario’s Tennis where he’s replaced by DK Jr. and there’s the Mario vs. DK series of games.

 

[Curious Villager]

But it's also really weird that despite DK appearing in games like mario kart and party, they're reluctant to use other DK stuff for some reason, Diddy, Dixie, K Rool and the rest of the kongs are significantly more interesting and unique than half of the characters in mario kart yet they're not used, I guess they just want the two to remain separate.

I wish we did get some DKC and Wario Land/Ware characters in Mario spin off's at some point rather than the abundance of baby characters from Yoshi's Island that games like Mario Kart like to throw in.(Two of them never even appearing in those games to begin with..)

 

[Will]

at least according to MarioWiki.

He and Goomba were revealed at E3 to be playable.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I wish we did get some DKC and Wario Land/Ware characters in Mario spin off's at some point rather than the abundance of baby characters from Yoshi's Island that games like Mario Kart like to throw in.(Two of them never even appearing in those games to begin with..)

9Volt would be a hilariously good fit for the Mario spinoffs.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

It is interesting that Diddy's going to be in the new Mario Party, at least according to MarioWiki.

Oh apparently he is, he's apparently in aces too, I guess they're starting to bring him back, weird he wasn't in mario kart though.

 

[Enchess]

Would it really, though?

In the sense that you could very easily come up with a moveset without having to create new moves he doesn't use in the series, yes. He has a vacuum gun, bouncing, boxing, cannonballs, propeller backpack, crown he can throw, poison clouds, electric tripwires, etc.

He's basically Snake. Now that I think of it, Snake's inclusion might be the biggest thing working against him.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I wish we did get some DKC and Wario Land/Ware characters in Mario spin off's at some point rather than the abundance of baby characters from Yoshi's Island that games like Mario Kart like to throw in.(Two of them never even appearing in those games to begin with..)

Yeah, I understand why they're trying to keep them separate but how cool would it be to have Ashley, Jimmy T, Dixie, Cranky and others playable in the mario spin-offs, as well as having locales based on those games too. It just feels like a wasted opportunity when you're adding characters like tanooki mario and pink gold peach instead.

 

[KMDP]

One thing I just thought of regarding K. Rool and the TV show.

An indeterminate amount of children watched that show (I didn't, at the very least), while Nintendo has pretty good idea, barring rentals, how many copies of the Donkey Kong Country games were bought.

Food for thought for people trying to claim that the TV Show helps K. Rool's chances (as I have done).

 

[DarkFalcon]

Would it really, though?

I don't mean "copy and paste, ez, done". I mean he's already got plenty to reference for a moveset and is oozing personality.

 

[Pakky]

Serious question, could you have all Belmonts rolled into one?

 

[Knight Dude]

Do people really care whether or not the DK stuff is a Mario Spin-off? That doesn't change the fact that it has its own impact, its own fanbase and characters. Characters that people still want in Smash Bros.

Here's a mini-list because I'm really bored. Basically, third parties that aren't including the ones from series that were already included in the game. That means no Sonic, Bayonetta, Mega Man, Street Fighter, PAC-MAN (then again who's asking for more), Metal Gear, or Final Fantasy.

Spoiler: SEGA

- Akira Yuki (Virtua Fighter)
- Ryo Hazuki (Shenmue)
- Hostuma (Shinobi)
- Ichiro Ogami (Sakura Wars)
- Erica Fontaine (Sakura Wars)
- Kazuma Kiryu (Yakuza)
- Goro Majima (Yakuza)
- Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)
- Segata Sanshiro (Sega Saturn)

Spoiler: Capcom

- Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
- Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
- Nemesis T (Resident Evil)
- Dante (Devil May Cry)
- Captain Commando (Captain Commando)
- Arthur (Ghosts n' Goblins)
- Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)
- Demetri Maximoff (Darkstalkers)
- Morrigan (Darkstalkers)
- Felicia (Darkstalkers)
- Mike Haggar (Final Fight)
- Monster Hunter (Monster Hunter)
- Nathan Spener (Bionic Commando)
- Hayato (Star Gladiator)
- Viewtiful Joe (Viewtiful Joe)

Spoiler: Konami

- Simon Belmont (Castlevania)
- Alucard (Castlevania)
- Dracula (Castlevania)
- Bill Rizer or Lance Bean (Contra)
- Bomberman (Bomberman)
- Frogger (Frogger)
- Gradius (Gradius)
- Sparkster (Rocket Night)

Spoiler: Bandai Namco

- Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
- Ivy (Soul Calibur)
- Jin Kazama (Tekken)
- Heicachi Mishima (Tekken)
- Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia)
- Agumon (Digimon)
- Chosen Undead (Dark Souls)

Spoiler: Square Enix

- Cooking Mama (Cooking Mama)
- Geno (Super Mario RPG)
- 2B (Nier: Automata)
- Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
- Tiz Arrior (Bravely)

Spoiler: New Challenger

Microsoft, what are you doing?
- Banjo (Banjo & Kazooie)
- Steve (Minecraft)
- Master Chief (Halo)
- Fulgore (Killer Instinct)
- Orchid (Killer Instinct)
- Jago (Killer Instinct)
- Any Battletoad (Battletoads)

These are all candidates that can be chosen. Does it mean they're probable? 98% definite no, but they're options for entirely new candidates nonetheless. It shows how big of a pool you can choose from and how dead most of these series are. Hopefully I didn't forget anyone that was notable enough.

What about Strider Hiryu? He might be hard to define since his games and the comic book were so closely made together.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Which Belmonts would you like him to draw from in particular?

Richter, Leon, and Trevor specifically but I’ll take literally all of them if I had the choice. Throw in some Alucad too while we’re at it.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Serious question, could you have all Belmonts rolled into one?

Their abillities could probably create one solitary character yes.

Which is part of why I suggested Simons recovery be from Richter & Julius because they happen to have a very high reaching uppercut move they use to traverse areas in the Metroidvanias or escape attacks.

 

[Will]

What about Strider Hiryu? He might be hard to define since his games and the comic book were so closely made together.

He was the first person I thought about on my list and I still forgot to put him in. Silly me.