Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Fenriraga]

If we had to choose an indie to get in my choice would easily be Shantae. I mean she’s like the original indie. Appearing on the Gameboy Color and published by Capcom back in the day and now she’s basically a full blown mascot for indies in general. I like Shovel Knight fine, but I don’t really WANT him in Smash. Not that he wouldn’t be great but my choice goes to The Half-Genie Hero easily.

Exactly this. I enjoy Shovel Knight, but his status of having a one-hit wonder game as opposed to Shantae's multiple games starting as far back as the GBC (Yes, she didn't get another until DSiware, but I digress, even that predates SK by years) just makes her more appealing to me. She has history. She's developed over multiple titles. Shovel Knight has yet to have that luxury.

 

[Knight Dude]

That said, unless a character has a ton to pull from in their base game, having some kind of niche or role to play can help in deciding what fighting style they could have.

Sheik is pretty much a Ninja and she doesn't borrow much from OoT directly, but being a Ninja style character is enough to flesh out a moveset.

Little Mac is a boxer, and while not every move is taken directly from Punch-Out!!, it makes sense for him to have a bunch of traditional boxing moves and then exaggerate them to whatever extent is needed.

Obviously, when looking at Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Link or Samus, these are characters who have a ton of games, and many of their moves are just parts of their games being put into a different context.

I don't even know why you're defending Runner this much. The only idea thrown out for him is just ripping off what Pac Man does.

And you're doing it and trying to sound like you're meaning something.

''Subjective reasoning" or not. Yes. A ninja warrior is gonna have moveset potential. Yes. A dog who starred in a game with a shooting element might have shooting material. Mario a character with years of history even when he was conceived was gonna have moveset potential. Your only valid points are Wii Fit and R.O.B.

Even Captain Falcon could have had a moveset dealing with racing. It's not highly feasible, but it would have made sense.

Even Falcon being fast and hard hitting can be compared to how the racing in F-Zero is like, and he's basically a comic book superhero in design which also helps with his flashy moves.

 

[Enchess]

In similar situations; worst case scenario being Konami says "no" despite already having two in there.

There's also that one probably fake leak that says Konami actually pushed Simon themselves and wouldn't give Snake without him.

They do have the Castlevania show on Netflix and have been rumored lately to be trying to get out a new Castlevania to compete with Bloodstained. It's at least plausible they'd take advantage of Smash needing Snake for their central "Everyone is back" thing.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Yeah, it's a surprisingly common mistake, though I get why one would make that

Actually, Sakurai has stated he's very fond of CastleVania, so that could be a factor. Also again, Capcom already has 2 characters too.

Hadn't seen that, sorry

Well, that's the Switch port specifically. The Wii U game came out a little before Smash right? Dixie was in that one so the same argument for Funky doesn't apply to her as her game came out a few years prior to the Switch port

True. However, this also banks on people knowing her through one cutscene in the beginning, when you absolutely don't have to play as her unless you have people to play with, which not everyone does.

Smash sold more and had a costume for the King along with his trophy. It's arguable that even a casual gamer could be aware of his existence as well.

"Popularity" will always be a subjective point that's hard to prove. That's all there is to it.

Heck, his costume was part of an update several months AFTER TF released. Technically, he has a cameo and appearance after her and Sakurai himself marketed this update with his costume.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Sheik is pretty much a Ninja and she doesn't borrow much from OoT directly, but being a Ninja style character is enough to flesh out a moveset.

I always found it cool how Koei-Tecmo managed to balance out the more Smash Ninja aspects with her original music playing into one moveset, just an aside note but I love it. I still wish Sheik at least had a taunt with her harp in Smash.

 

[KMDP]

In similar situations; worst case scenario being Konami says "no" despite already having two in there.

There's also that one probably fake leak that says Konami actually pushed Simon themselves and wouldn't give Snake without him.

They do have the Castlevania show on Netflix and have been rumored lately to be trying to get out a new Castlevania to compete with Bloodstained. It's at least plausible they'd take advantage of Smash needing Snake for their central "Everyone is back" thing.

Konami does seem to hate video game money, nowadays. S'all 'bout dem Pachinko bux.

 

[Will]

Konami does seem to hate video game money, nowadays.

Nah they just don't like making big IP console games. Mobile games and pachinko is their more comfortable route of doing things, especially with YGO.

 

[KMDP]

Nah they just don't like making big IP console games. Mobile games and pachinko is their more comfortable route of doing things, especially with YGO.

The MGS3 Pachinko machine is a crime against humanity.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

There's also that one probably fake leak that says Konami actually pushed Simon themselves and wouldn't give Snake without him.

They do have the Castlevania show on Netflix and have been rumored lately to be trying to get out a new Castlevania to compete with Bloodstained. It's at least plausible they'd take advantage of Smash needing Snake for their central "Everyone is back" thing.

Call me optimistic but the content we’ve gotten in ultimate doesn’t make me think “holding Snake hostage” Bomberman was obviously a big deal to get and if Simon is indeed a playable character that seems far more like a Sakurai move than a Konami. Simon has some incredible history with Nintendo and, believe it or not, Simon was the MOST requested Konami character back in the Brawl days. I distinctly remember the animosity Snake got because of the fact he got in before Simon.

Simon just seems like a long time coming and he could easily have a very unique move set something that Sakurai is deftly aware of. He’s not the wildcard people have made him out to be since the leak, he’s always been a popular choice. It’s just the fact that Snake threw a wrench in the plans of so many peoples mindset when he made it in before Simon and then the whole Konami debacle of 2015 made it even worse. I feel like it’s time for Simon to get in and I think Sakurai, not Konami, will make it happen.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Simon Belmont would be absolutely rad in Smash, he has so much to pull from, even a recovery from the likes of Richter and Julius.

I feel like he's the true last NES superstar left that Smash doesn't have.

 

[Pakky]

I don't even know why you're defending Runner this much. The only idea thrown out for him is just ripping off what Pac Man does.

And you're doing it and trying to sound like you're meaning something.

''Subjective reasoning" or not. Yes. A ninja warrior is gonna have moveset potential. Yes. A dog who starred in a game with a shooting element might have shooting material. Mario a character with years of history even when he was conceived was gonna have moveset potential. Your only valid points are Wii Fit and R.O.B.

Even Captain Falcon could have had a moveset dealing with racing. It's not highly feasible, but it would have made sense.

Its not about "defending" anyone its about being objective and putting "wants" aside to look at facts.

Fact- He is an Indie Character that has a reference in Smash already putting ahead of most others

Fact-Shovel & co have Amiibos putting him in the same league.

These things are official acknowledgments by Nintendo.

Everyone else that is an Indie is a grey area.

Moveset potential is subjective, because of literally any facet of any game can be truncated, referenced or weaponized into what would be a moveset. Or like with a LOT of characters, embellishment CAN be used.

 

[Knight Dude]

I might also have a slight preference towards Shantae, specifically because she's had multiple games that I liked, while Shovel Knight has had one with different characters getting their own campaign. Though I'd hardly be mad at either making it in, however slim their chances are.

As far as other "iconic" third parties go, Rayman, Simon and Crash are being talked about a lot, wouldn't mind them either. In fact, Simon would be pretty hype for me.

Though I don't hear people talk too much about Ryu Hayabusa. Guy's been around since the NES and still shows up in games to this day.

 

[KMDP]

Moveset potential is subjective, because of literally any facet of any game can be truncated, referenced or weaponized into what would be a moveset. Or like with a LOT of character embellishment CAN be used.

Exhibit A: Villager

 

[Enchess]

Call me optimistic but the content we’ve gotten in ultimate doesn’t make me think “holding Snake hostage” Bomberman was obviously a big deal to get and if Simon is indeed a playable character that seems far more like a Sakurai move than a Konami. Simon has some incredible history with Nintendo and, believe it or not, Simon was the MOST requested Konami character back in the Brawl days. I distinctly remember the animosity Snake got because of the fact he got in before Simon.

Simon just seems like a long time coming and he could easily have a very unique move set something that Sakurai is deftly aware of. He’s not the wildcard people have made him out to be since the leak, he’s always been a popular choice. It’s just the fact that Snake threw a wrench in the plans of so many peoples mindset when he made it in before Snake and then the whole Konami debacle of 2015 made it even worse. I feel like it’s time for Simon to get in and I think Sakurai, not Konami, will make it happen.

Yeah, I know. I just think holding Snake hostage is also an extremely Konami thing to do with their feud with Kojima. I mean they cancelled Silent Hills at the peak of its internet hype when it was getting tons of positive press. They are pretty petty as a company, so them rushing to get a Castlevania title out to spite Iga seems realistic as well. Those two things combined are why I can still see this being what heppened.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I might also have a slight preference towards Shantae, specifically because she's had multiple games that I liked, while Shovel Knight has had one with different characters getting their own campaign. Though I'd hardly be mad at either making it in, however slim their chances are.

As far as other "iconic" third parties go, Rayman, Simon and Crash are being talked about a lot, wouldn't mind them either. In fact, Simon would be pretty hype for me.

Though I don't hear people talk too much about Ryu Hayabusa. Guy's been around since the NES and still shows up in games to this day.

Duuuude I'm a huge advocate for Ryu Hayabusa I just don't see him getting in ahead of Simon Belmont, but if we got both? I think we'd shoot to the moon.

 

[Pakky]

Exhibit A: Villager

My point exactly.

Another one is

- A toy/peripheral, given a moveset along with a backstory and purpose within the "Smash" universe.

 

[Will]

Simon Belmont would be absolutely rad in Smash, he has so much to pull from, even a recovery from the likes of Richter and Julius.

I feel like he's the true last NES superstar left that Smash doesn't have.

I feel like he's the true last NES superstar left that Smash doesn't have.

Bill Rizer weeps from a distance. Ryu Hayabusa too but at least some people know his name rather than "Ninja Gaiden ninja"

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Actually Pit keeping his Brawl specials would have been fine, espesically since he lost his SSB4 Final Smash. The Three Sacred Treasures have been importantn in every Kid Icarus game, including Uprising, and I don't think Pit has to exclusively cater to only his Uprising appearance. Mario still uses a Cape from a game from 1991, and the FLUDD has long stopped being relevant in main Mario games. Zelda and Ganondorf are aesthetically based on old game's designs instead of BotW or Skyward Sword, and when was the last Zelda game to feature Din, Nayru, and Farore's gifts?

I see no reason Mirror Shield and Wings of Icarus couldn't have been featured for Pit's standard specials, while Palutena, Dark Pit, the Magnus Assist Trophy, the Uprising music and stage would have been more than enough to refer to Uprising. Also, I just prefer Pit as he played in Brawl. He took a huge nosedive with 4's changes.

Before Smash 4 and Uprising Pit was only based on one game due to extreme limits to what he could do while being modernized, with Uprising he was given personality and an army of things that could make up a moveset. It would be weird for Sakurai to have his vision of Pit not play the way he does now. Plus, having everyone/place/song/thing from Kid Icarus apart of Smash all represent Uprising (including the also revamped/rebooted Palutena) and leave Pit to stay old school is silly (unlike every other series in Smash, they can’t just have one person with a modern voice and personality who prefers fighting in the modern times stay completely old school.

Als, you may prefer his Brawl moveset, but his Smash 4/Ultimate moveset is better for the long run. Only problem with his 4 moveset was his lack in KO power, but with Ultimate he fights faster and can KO opponents better (which has already been shown throughout the Smash Ultimate demo footage of him so far)

Besides, every character who gets a recent game is given some sort of update (have been given redesigns and atheistic changes to their bodies and gear to match up with a recent game, finally speaks English, have changes to their voices and gear to match with with a recent game,got changed from TP to ALITP to match up with her fighting style and still have a recent touch to her, and so on so forth). Unlike Pit, Mario didn't/doesn’t need a massive overload in his character sine he does the same thing no matter what. FLUDD, the Cape, and Cappy are all only one time things/characters that Mario needed to accomplish his usual Bowser things

 

[KMDP]

Yeah, I know. I just think holding Snake hostage is also an extremely Konami thing to do with their feud with Kojima. I mean they cancelled Silent Hills at the peak of its internet hype when it was getting tons of positive press. They are pretty petty as a company, so them rushing to get a Castlevania title out to spite Iga seems realistic as well. Those two things combined are why I can still see this being what heppened.

Duuuude I'm a huge advocate for Ryu Hayabusa I just don't see him getting in ahead of Simon Belmont, but if we got both? I think we'd shoot to the moon.

With Mario & co., Link, Samus, Kirby, Marth, Ice Climbers, Pit, Little Mac, Duck Hunt, Megaman, Snake, Simon and Ryu; we would have pretty much all the NES all-stars.

All we would need is Warrior of Light/Black Mage, Erdrick and Scrooge McDuck to round out the set.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Bill Rizer weeps from a distance. Ryu Hayabusa too but at least some people know his name rather than "Ninja Gaiden nina"

I also really love Contra but the no firearms rule of Sakurai kinda makes Bill and Lance a bit moot unfortunately.

Could you imagine them as an IC duo with the spreadshot?

 

[DLEAF]

I also really love Contra but the no firearms rule of Sakurai kinda makes Bill and Lance a bit moot unfortunately.

Could you imagine them as an IC duo with the spreadshot?

Wait, no firearms rule? But what about Snake and Bayonetta?

 

[Enchess]

we would need is Warrior of Light/Black Mage, Erdrick and Scrooge McDuck to round out the set.

If we get Cranky Kong you can pretend he's Scrooge McDuck.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

True. However, this also banks on people knowing her through one cutscene in the beginning, when you absolutely don't have to play as her unless you have people to play with, which not everyone does.

Smash sold more and had a costume for the King along with his trophy. It's arguable that even a casual gamer could be aware of his existence as well.

"Popularity" will always be a subjective point that's hard to prove. That's all there is to it.

Heck, his costume was part of an update several months AFTER TF released. Technically, he has a cameo and appearance after her and Sakurai himself marketed this update with his costume.

knowing her through one cu- what are you talking about? I genuinely don't get what you mean, some people think Nintendo now owns the franchise due to funding the sequels and keeping the franchise alive

'Knowing he exists because of a costume' isn't familiarity with the character though. They'd only know because of the costume, but not why the costume is important and who the costume is referencing. People who bought TF however get to see who Dixie is and what she can do. Casuals who saw the costume wouldn't know anything about K.Rool other than that there's a crocodile called K.Rool

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Wait, no firearms rule? But what about Snake and Bayonetta?

I thought there was some deal that didn't allow Snake to have his traditional Firearms? Along with Bayos being "magic"

I've heard the former for years.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

With Mario & co., Link, Samus, Kirby, Marth, Ice Climbers, Pit, Little Mac, Duck Hunt, Megaman, Snake, Simon and Ryu; we would have pretty much all the NES all-stars.

All we would need is Warrior of Light/Black Mage, Erdrick and Scrooge McDuck to round out the set.

Toad weeps while being used as a meatshield by Peach.

 

[Will]

I also really love Contra but the no firearms rule of Sakurai kinda makes Bill and Lance a bit moot unfortunately.

No firearms rule?
I mean Snake has no gun but has a rocket launcher. And then Bayonetta's over here with literal foot pistols. I mean I know Bill has literal rifles but he can always just amp up the classic peashooter energy guns.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

knowing her through one cu- what are you talking about? I genuinely don't get what you mean, some people think Nintendo now owns the franchise due to funding the sequels and keeping the franchise alive

'Knowing he exists because of a costume' isn't familiarity with the character though. They'd only know because of the costume, but not why the costume is important and who the costume is referencing. People who bought TF however get to see who Dixie is and what she can do. Casuals who saw the costume wouldn't know anything about K.Rool other than that there's a crocodile called K.Rool

If you play through the game with no one else, you'd only see her through the opening

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Toad weeps while being used as a meatshield by Peach.

Well atleast Toad seems to be more physical instead of meatshieldy now

 

[Will]

Toad weeps while being used as a meatshield by Peach.

Toad is a total chad now, the kid's accepted his place and will beat your ass no hesitation.

I can just hear the high-pitched "Square up!" squeals.

 

[Knight Dude]

Bill Rizer weeps from a distance. Ryu Hayabusa too but at least some people know his name rather than "Ninja Gaiden nina"

What we really need is the Spread Gun to be an item.

 

[KMDP]

If you play through the game with no one else, you'd only see her through the opening

To be perfectly frank, that's not a good argument. Yes, a casual player could have used anyone. But a casual player could have used anyone, including Dixie.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wait, no firearms rule? But what about Snake and Bayonetta?

Snake's explanation is that explosives aren't firearms

If you play through the game with no one else, you'd only see her through the opening

Isn't Dixie the first character you can get as a buddy? The game draws attention to the barrel and tells the player to grab it, pwhich teaches players that DK barrels have extra buddies that give you more health and extra abilities. Plus, what player wouldn't want to try out all 3 buddies?

 

[Enchess]

Knowing he exists because of a costume' isn't familiarity with the character though. They'd only know because of the costume, but not why the costume is important and who the costume is referencing. People who bought TF however get to see who Dixie is and what she can do. Casuals who saw the costume wouldn't know anything about K.Rool other than that there's a crocodile called K.Rool

Dixie's prominent role in TF marketing was trying to appeal to old school fans. If a DKC6 is coming, who's left to appeal to nostalgia? Kiddy Kong? Of course not. It'll be K Rool. For all we know, DKC6 is in the pipeline and K Rool costume and now (hopefully) playable role in Smash is viewed internally as advertisement for it.

(Disclaimer: I won't be disappointed if we get Dixie and not K Rool. She's my favorite Kong)

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

 

[KMDP]

Snake's explanation is that explosives aren't firearms

High Explosives are also harder to get a hold of than pistols and rifles.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

To be perfectly frank, that's not a good argument. Yes, a casual player could have used anyone. But a casual player could have used anyone, including Dixie.

Didn't play the game so I wasn't aware.

However, he's still technically had a more recent appearance than her and was acknowledged through a costume to a larger audience and referred to by name.

Popularity is still completely subjective since we have no actual numbers. We can infer all we want, but there's nothing concrete

 

[Will]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

People suddenly remember Simon existed and now they want him in, whether the leak is fake or not. Whips for days.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I might also have a slight preference towards Shantae, specifically because she's had multiple games that I liked, while Shovel Knight has had one with different characters getting their own campaign. Though I'd hardly be mad at either making it in, however slim their chances are.

As far as other "iconic" third parties go, Rayman, Simon and Crash are being talked about a lot, wouldn't mind them either. In fact, Simon would be pretty hype for me.

Though I don't hear people talk too much about Ryu Hayabusa. Guy's been around since the NES and still shows up in games to this day.

I was just about to bring up Hayabusa as a possible DLC character. I definitely don’t think he’s making base but DLC? Hell yeah, I can see it. I mean The original Ninja Gaiden Trilogy was all NES exclusive, he got a Trilogy compilation as a SNES exclusive, Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword was a DS exclusive, Nintendo published Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor’s Edge as a timed Wii U launch exclusive, and that’s all without even mentioning their work on the Nintendo Warriors games and Other M or that Metroid crossover in Dead or Alive Dimensions. There are a decreasing amount of relevant noteworthy 3rd parties that aren’t in Smash and Hayabusa is one of the most noteworthy.

Others I would include are Rayman, maybe Doom Slayer, and probably Lara Croft. I dunno.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Toad is a total chad now, the kid's accepted his place and will beat your *** no hesitation.
View attachment 149988
I can just hear the high-pitched "Square up!" squeals.

I can hear him saying it right now and it hurts

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If you play through the game with no one else, you'd only see her through the opening

She's the only kong available for the second level of the game.

Also that argument is stupid lmao.