Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Enchess]

Honestly I'm not expecting a western 3rd party period, let alone an indie one. If we got one it'd be Rayman or Crash. And honestly I think the whole concept of an "indie rep" is kinda weird, indie isn't a singular game or even genre that one character can rep.

True. I think it's more a question of who is making the calls at the end of the day. It's not hard for me to imagine higher-ups telling Sakurai he has to include a western 3rd party and indie rep. Nintendo is trying to get over it's reputation of having poor 3rd party relationships and lately they've been making a big deal about how nice they are with indies... But I don't think Nintendo higher-ups are getting involved at that level. And if it's just Sakurai making the decision I expect no Indies and no western 3rd party

 

[KMDP]

I'm not gonna attach myself to a leaker who's already shaky as it is just yet. If ANY Third Party is getting a second rep, it's SEGA. Konami already had all of its characters cut once and now recently came back when Sonic has been here for three games straight.

Let me clear something up here.
I personally had considered Simon Belmont a possibility for a Smash Bros. contender during the DLC period of Smash 4. So Vergeben has barely influenced me (though he certainly has, I won't deny that).

If polls are worth anything from many websites as well aa Rare employees, or previous ones, launching a campaign for him to be in Sm4sh, and I don't care how inflated or biased you think it is, then K. Rool clearly has his popularity. Heck, he has a Mii Costume because of it.

Fan polls are worth basically nothing. They tend to have, like, 100-10000 votes on them compared to what I can only assume was the 100000s-millions of votes the Smash Ballot proper got. The sample size is way too small to be of any use. Not to mention the echo chambers.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Minor note, Spiky Eared Pichu is female so that'd be another female costume on a (assumed) male character.

Super Smash Sisters tournaments looking to have more entrants!

 

[Deleted member]

When you think of Echo possibilities for each of the third-parties:
= Big Boss
= Shadow
= Mrs. Pac-Man
= Ken Masters
= Zack Fair
= Jeanne

And here's , whom all of his possibilities are used for his Final Smash.
Then I saw some people who suggested... Roll, as a remaining Echo possibility?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Mr Runner is a no contest.

So what he got a trophy?

Makes no difference.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

True. I think it's more a question of who is making the calls at the end of the day. It's not hard for me to imagine higher-ups telling Sakurai he has to include a western 3rd party and indie rep. Nintendo is trying to get over it's reputation of having poor 3rd party relationships and lately they've been making a big deal about how nice they are with indies... But I don't think Nintendo higher-ups are getting involved at that level. And if it's just Sakurai making the decision I expect no Indies and no western 3rd party

I don't think nintendo higher ups have much of a say in who Sakurai adds to smash, seems like they leave it pretty much up to him. And adding indie characters to smash would be a weird way to develop their relationship with indie developers tbh. like that takes a lot of work.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Besides,

Let me clear something up here.
I personally had considered Simon Belmont a possibility for a Smash Bros. contender during the DLC period of Smash 4. So Vergeben has barely influenced me (though he certainly has, I won't deny that).

Fan polls are worth basically nothing. They tend to have, like, 100-10000 votes on them compared to what I can only assume was the 100000s-millions of votes the Smash Ballot proper got. The sample size is way too small to be of any use. Not to mention the echo chambers.

Then what else should we use? Fan polls and desires would also support your point, but then I can easily claim what you said right there and write it off.

Fact is: He got a Mii Costume so he's clearly acknowledged as having his fans from Sakurai, otherwise, why pick such a "dead" character if the fanbase wasn't the influence? It's like Geno.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

When you think of Echo possibilities for each of the third-parties:
= Big Boss
= Shadow
= Mrs. Pac-Man
= Ken Masters
= Zack Fair
= Jeanne

And here's , whom all of his possibilities are used for his Final Smash.
Then I saw some people who suggested... Roll, as a remaining Echo possibility?

Why's everyone forget Roll?

No one played the 2D Marvel vs Capcom games? I guess licencing issued don't make it easy.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I would personally like to see a new third party company get a character instead of just expanding on the current ones coughlikeLevel5cough
Koei Tecmo sounds like decent choice I guess...

As much of a Ninja Gaiden & Warriors fan I am, I don't see the likes of Ryu Hayabusa or Lu Bu joining smash as much as I'd adore both (Hayabusa does have the NES relation but I don't think he matches up to Simon in terms of the NES legends in terms of general being known).

 

[KMDP]

I would personally like to see a new third party company get a character instead of just expanding on the current ones coughlikeLevel5cough
Koei Tecmo sounds like decent choice I guess...

A Koei Tecmo rep would either be Kasumi or Ryu, more likely Ryu. (Though Kasumi's bounce would help heal the nerds' wounds from Samus' unfortunate breast reduction. )

You asked for negatives; I supplied. They can be as subjective as they want.

And I reserve my right to call your negatives into question.

 

[Pakky]

Mr Runner is a no contest.

So what he got a trophy?

Makes no difference.

Actually in the game though. As with Rayman, something to consider.

 

[Enchess]

As much of a Ninja Gaiden & Warriors fan I am, I don't see the likes of Ryu Hayabusa or Lu Bu joining smash as much as I'd adore both (Hayabusa does have the NES relation but I don't think he matches up to Simon in terms of the NES legends in terms of general being known).

There's always Fatal Frame, the IP Koei Tecmo and Nintendo have joint ownership of...

Plus, KT seems to value the franchise at least somewhat:
"as Koei Tecmo we believe this is one of our valuable IPs"

 

[Jedisupersonic]

A Koei Tecmo rep would either be Kasumi or Ryu, more likely Ryu. (Though Kasumi's bounce would help heal the nerds' wounds from Samus' unfortunate breast reduction. )

And I reserve my right to call your negatives into question.

Nah the nerds are currently whining about how DoA6 is toning down the bounciness.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

A Koei Tecmo rep would either be Kasumi or Ryu, more likely Ryu. (Though Kasumi's bounce would help heal the nerds' wounds from Samus' unfortunate breast reduction. )

And I reserve my right to call your negatives into question.

They are still negatives regardless.

Just because you personally detest them doesn't mean they aren't also relevant. That's ignorance.

 

[Curious Villager]

There's always Fatal Frame, the IP Koei Tecmo and Nintendo have joint ownership of...

Plus, KT seems to value the franchise at least somewhat:
"as Koei Tecmo we believe this is one of our valuable IPs"

Didn't Fatal Frame get like two trophies in Smash 4? (One in 3DS and one in Wii U) Quite interesting to be one of the few third parties that only have a trophy appearance in Smash.

 

[Freduardo]

Actually in the game though. As with Rayman, something to consider.

Also his sequel launched as a Nintendo exclusive.

He actually would represent a genre unseen in Smash (endless runner)

 

[Jedisupersonic]

There's always Fatal Frame, the IP Koei Tecmo and Nintendo have joint ownership of...

Plus, KT seems to value the franchise at least somewhat:
"as Koei Tecmo we believe this is one of our valuable IPs"

I always forget Fatal Frame even exists under the swarm of Ninja Gaiden, DoA, Warriors (all of their subseries), Nobunaga's Ambition, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, etc.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Actually in the game though. As with Rayman, something to consider.

Ehhhhh. It really means nothing. Rayman? Sure.

Him? Not really. He's on the lower rung of indies that people talk about.

 

[KMDP]

They are still negatives regardless.

Just because you personally detest them doesn't mean they aren't also relevant. That's ignorance.

I don't detest any of your arguments, I just don't think they necessarily hold up against scrutiny. K. Rool getting a Mii Costume is certainly relevant, though, I'll give you that. I just think Dixie is more popular with the casual DKC fans over King K. Rool.

 

[Enchess]

Didn't Fatal Frame get like two trophies in Smash 4? (One in 3DS and one in Wii U) Quite interesting to be one of the few third parties that only have a trophy appearance in Smash.

Yeah, it did. I don't think it counts as 3rd party anymore though. It's 2nd party at worst because Nintendo (co)owns IP, but another studio makes the game. It's a lot closer to first party than Bayo is and people are hesistant to even call that 3rd party.

 

[Pakky]

Also his sequel launched as a Nintendo exclusive.

My point

Ehhhhh. It really means nothing. Rayman? Sure.

Him? Not really. He's on the lower rung of indies that people talk about.

Okay, why is he a trophy in the previous entry if no one cares? The "why" is always something to keep in mind when looking at the physical evidence.

I mean reasoning and speculation are good, but BEING in smash or given any special treatment in the game (him being the only indie to get anything in smash) in any capacity with current entries on the current system should promote thought and should be factored into speculation.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Personally, I'm all aboard the Tails boat, myself. I can acknowledge the cons, however, evem if they can be passable, it's still something to consider

I don't detest any of your arguments, I just don't think they necessarily hold up against scrutiny. K. Rool getting a Mii Costume is certainly relevant, though, I'll give you that. I just think Dixie is more popular with the casual DKC fans over King K. Rool.

And where's your citation?

 

[Curious Villager]

Yeah, it did. I don't think it counts as 3rd party anymore though. It's 2nd party at worst because Nintendo (co)owns IP, but another studio makes the game. It's a lot closer to first party than Bayo is and people are hesistant to even call that 3rd party.

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. I recalled Markiplier playing I think the PS2 version of one of the Fatal Frame games so I was quite surprised to see them as trophies in Smash.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm not saying no one cares.

I'm just saying he's not very likely for a number of reasons.

He's not discussed heavily, he's not really got all that much moveset potential, etc, etc.

 

[92MilesPrower]

Minor note, Spiky Eared Pichu is female so that'd be another female costume on a (assumed) male character.

I mean they're adding female Pikachu with the heart shaped tail to the game, it wouldn't be too odd to see a female Pichu.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Does Pheonix Wright have moveset potential? That's gotta stop being an argument.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Personally, I'm all aboard the Tails boat, myself. I can acknowledge the cons, however, evem if they can be passable, it's still something to consider

Tails does have tons to draw from, including Riders, Battle, his old game Tails Adventure, his old flying abillities, and stuff in Adventure, but seeing as Sakurai couldn't give Sonic anything after the 90's (besides his sliding kick from 06) it's pretty safe to say he wouldn't go into that much effort for a Sonic 2nd character either.

 

[Enchess]

Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. I recalled Markiplier playing I think the PS2 version of one of the Fatal Frame games so I was quite surprised to see them as trophies in Smash.

Yeah, it's a bizarre situation. Fatal Frame 2 had a JP and Europe only remake that was Wii exclusive because Nintendo paid for it (like Bayo 2). Then there was a 3DS exclusive spinoff and JP only Wii exclusive Fatal Frame 4 both in Bayo 2 situation as well. After that, Nintendo became co-owner and Fatal Frame 5 was a Wii U exclusive.

 

[KMDP]

Personally, I'm all aboard the Tails boat, myself. I can acknowledge the cons, however, evem if they can be passable, it's still something to consider


And where's your citation?

Hah! Got me there, beyond personal experience, I don't have a citation! But the burden of proof regarding "K. Rool is more popular than Dixie" is on you, not me, since you were the one who said it.
K. Rool may very well have gotten a Mii Costume because Sakurai sees how popular he is, but doesn't know what to do with him. (I doubt this, though, a LOT)

Anyway, I am enjoying this discussion, I hope there are no hard feelings.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I mean they're adding female Pikachu with the heart shaped tail to the game, it wouldn't be too odd to see a female Pichu.

My point exactly

 

[92MilesPrower]

Does Pheonix Wright have moveset potential? That's gotta stop being an argument.

If you've played Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, then the answer is an obvious yes.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

Something I don't see discussed much is what do we suppose the odds of a Yokai Watch newcommer are? I'm against it but from what I hear it's a popular franchise in Japan.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Tails does have tons to draw from, including Riders, Battle, his old game Tails Adventure, his old flying abillities, and stuff in Adventure, but seeing as Sakurai couldn't give Sonic anything after the 90's (besides his sliding kick from 06) it's pretty safe to say he wouldn't go into that much effort for a Sonic 2nd character either.

Oh yeah. Tails is easily the most unique character out of the fighters suggested for Sonic. That's exactly why I want him over the others.

He's also Sonic's Luigi, whereas, comparatively, Mario didn't get his Shadow until Brawl.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Does Pheonix Wright have moveset potential? That's gotta stop being an argument.

I'll let Capcom do the talking

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

If you've played Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, then the answer is an obvious yes.

I doubt Sakurai will make his moveset a carbon copy.

All I'm saying is, in his games, he doesn't show much, yet somehow the company did it.

Captain Falcon and Fox are also big examples of this.

 

[Pakky]

He's not discussed heavily, he's not really got all that much moveset potential, etc, etc.

Moveset potential is never a factor, you know this, everyone knows this.

- originally a picture
- originally a picture
- originally a picture
- originally a picture
-Life sim
- Fitness instructor
- A toy
- Mini games
- A game over screen
- Avatars


Being discussed, well subjective point.

 

[BrytonJ]

My hopes of getting an indie rep have kind of been dashed by bomberman being an assist trophy. If bomberman can't be playable how could a bunch of much less famous indie characters get in? Of course, I could be wrong and it could just be that bomberman didn't really work as a full on character or whatever. This is just guesswork.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Does Pheonix Wright have moveset potential? That's gotta stop being an argument.

That's an argument because it's true of some people and some games. Granted Sakurai is a master of making movesets looking at Wii Fit Trainer and R.O.B.

But there's little to nothing in Runner gameplay that translates to a moveset. It's all running and jumping.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Hah! Got me there, beyond personal experience, I don't have a citation! But the burden of proof regarding "K. Rool is more popular than Dixie" is on you, not me, since you were the one who said it.
K. Rool may very well have gotten a Mii Costume because Sakurai sees how popular he is, but doesn't know what to do with him. (I doubt this, though, a LOT)

Anyway, I am enjoying this discussion, I hope there are no hard feelings.

I claimed she has stark competition from him within the (Smash, should've clarified) fanbase. That's all.

And no worries.

 

[KMDP]

I doubt Sakurai will make his moveset a carbon copy.

All I'm saying is, in his games, he doesn't show much, yet somehow the company did it.

Captain Falcon and Fox are also big examples of this.

Admittedly, Nick is very hardy.
I can imagine a Phoenix Assist Trophy, that is very hard to get rid of (like, Cruel Smash, hard). He runs randomly around the stage, picking unseen things up. Eventually, he targets a single character and yells "OBJECTION!" instantly smashing them.

I claimed she has stark competition from him within the (Smash, should've clarified) fanbase. That's all.

You're not wrong, both would be great!

And no worries.

Gasp! Could it be!? An amicable argument on the internet that didn't end in bloodshed and tears?
I may cry.