Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Enchess]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

Well, Metroid and Castlevania did have a rivalry starting with SotN... (Not that Simon is a good rep for that rivalry)

Seriously though, Castlevania is one of the best games on NES and many would say the same of Castlevania IV on SNES. There's quite a lot of nostalgia for it and the series has always felt more at home on Nintendo than in its releases on other platforms.

 

[KMDP]

Popularity is still completely subjective

When you're Nintendo/Sakurai, and have access to not only every Nintendo games' sales figures, but also every Smash Ballot for every Smash Game. I'd say popularity is pretty objective,
But that's not strictly what you're trying to argue, I'm just using your statement as a jumping off point for a different point.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dixie's prominent role in TF marketing was trying to appeal to old school fans. If a DKC6 is coming, who's left to appeal to nostalgia? Kiddy Kong? Of course not. It'll be K Rool. For all we know, DKC6 is in the pipeline and K Rool costume and now (hopefully) playable role in Smash is viewed internally as advertisement for it.

(Disclaimer: I won't be disappointed if we get Dixie and not K Rool. She's my favorite Kong)

I'm aware but this was about who a casual fan would be more familiar with

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

While Simon DID have support in Smash 4, the state of the franchise and Konami shenanigans made people pessimistic. CastleVania's a franchise of many 'NES Hard' platformers and being part of what made the popular 'MetroidVania' genre with nonlinear mazes where you need to backtrack to explore with new items and such

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

People suddenly remember Simon existed and now they want him in, whether the leak is fake or not. Whips for days.

See, that’s what I was thinking too, but I just didn’t want to say it. I don’t care about his inclusion or exclusion. If he’s in, cool. If not, whatevs.

It’s just the more I look into the leakers credibility, and the more I think about Simon making the cut, the less I think it’s real.

I don’t know. I may be bias. He won’t be making any future appearances on any roster prediction I may make though if he isn’t the next to be revealed. He’s on there for the time being though. Just in case.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

I have this thought a lot. As soon as someone is identified in a credible leak, their support goes through the roof. I guess people like being right.

Not that Simon isn't important - there's always been a Belmont thread here, but it did rocket in popularity once Vergeben suggested him.

I guess I should make a fake leak with my favorites, then everyone'll want them...

 

[Pakky]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

There's the anime on Netflix boosting its popular to the general public

There's a lot of games on Nintendo consoles most notably being one of those early franchises that started on the FAMICOM/NES

There is the fact that Bomberman is now an assist trophy but is owned by Konami. Making people consider other classic characters from them for newcomers.

There's Sakurai holding the series in high esteem.

There's the series sharing a gameplay style with Metroid.

Yeah, a lot of reasons, good ones other than the leak which may be fake at this point though interesting.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I have this thought a lot. As soon as someone is identified in a credible leak, their support goes through the roof. I guess people like being right.

Not that Simon isn't important - there's always been a Belmont thread here, but it did rocket in popularity once Vergeben suggested him.

I guess I should make a fake leak with my favorites, then everyone'll want them...

Right?!! *Googles “How to make a fake leak sound real. Like, really real.”

 

[CJ Falcon]

I don't see a good reason for how Dixie Kong would be more popular among "casual" players over Cranky Kong. If we're only considering Tropical Freeze, then they have the same level of "relevance."

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

Castlevania is a beloved franchise from the late 80's and was one of the most known NES series of games, it's gameplay was interesting and methodical, you were limited (your jump for instance) but also had very broken weapons and items at your disposal if you knew how to use them.

It also has a very rich lore and history, which many players (myself included) love getting into. Castlevania's 1, 3, 4 and later titles in the Metroidvania genre like Symphony of the Night were very popular on release and still are considered classics to this day, going on further Castlevania has a very rich history on both Nintendo and Sony consoles. Castlevania was everywhere until Konami decided it didn't want to actually try with games anymore (and people were mixed on the reboot Lords of Shadow).

Being half of the "Metroidvania" genre also makes it genre defining.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

She's the only kong available for the second level of the game.

Also that argument is stupid lmao.

Thanks for being civil. Lol

I already explained I hadn't played through the game. I thought It was like Returns since that was the last game I owned and, being from a similar series, I didn't expect much to change.

My bad.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Thanks for being civil. Lol

I already explained I hadn't played through the game. I thought It was like Returns since that was the last game I owned and, being from a similar series, I didn't expect much to change.

My bad.

Didn't intend for it to come off like that lol.

But still, Dixie's right there on the box, she's in the cutscenes, she's in the trailers and was a major focus in the games reveal trailer. Even if she was completely optional everyone who played the game knows who she is and that she's in it, even people who haven't played but seen the games promotional material will recognize her.

 

[CJ Falcon]

Didn't intend for it to come off like that lol.

But still, Dixie's right there on the box, she's in the cutscenes, she's in the trailers and was a major focus in the games reveal trailer. Even if she was completely optional everyone who played the game knows who she is and that she's in it, even people who haven't played but seen the games promotional material will recognize her.

You can also say the same for Cranky, who overall is more central to the DK series than Dixie.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

You can also say the same for Cranky, who overall is more central to the DK series than Dixie.

You're not entirely wrong, however Dixie is seemingly more popular than him and has had more roles as a playable character, plus she had her own game

 

[KMDP]

Didn't intend for it to come off like that lol.

But still, Dixie's right there on the box, she's in the cutscenes, she's in the trailers and was a major focus in the games reveal trailer. Even if she was completely optional everyone who played the game knows who she is and that she's in it, even people who haven't played but seen the games promotional material will recognize her.

An extra point for you.
Consider Dixie Kong is on the box-art for Donkey Kong Country 2, Donkey Kong Country 3, Donkey Kong Land 2, and Donkey Kong Land 3; a casual player who hasn't seen Donkey Kong Country since the mid-90s (and may or may not have finished the games) might see the cover of Tropical Freeze or the hypothetical Dixie Kong in Smash and say: "Oh, Dixie Kong! I remember her! I liked Dixie Kong!"

K. Rool wasn't on the cover of any of the Donkey Kong games, as far as I know, so a casual Nintendo fan who a) Didn't finish any DKC games as a kid; b) never read the manuals; and/or c) has a bad memory for characters that they don't spend lots of time with; will have little to know idea who K. Rool is.

 

[Fenriraga]

Can someone explain something to me, and be civil about it?

I understand Simon is in the proposed Verg leak, but ever since that leak surfaced, I’ve seen a lot more support for Simon, and it’s almost like people are coming out of the woodworks all of a sudden.

I know what Castlevania is, but I didn’t really play it growing up, so I guess I don’t understand the iconic of it.

So could someone explain all this to me?

Classic Castlevania is pretty much in the same boat as classic . Castlevania 1,2 and 3 were all popular NES games that, while difficult, were extremely solidly crafted platformers that are mostly fair.

...Well, 1 and 3 anyway. 2 at least laid the foundation for the future Metroidvania's.

And of course, there's so many other beloved and fantastic Classicvanias, especially 4 and Rondo of Blood. Classicvania is just fantastic, arcadey fun.

The other thing that makes Castlevania as beloved as it is is the world and premise. It's a giant love letter to the classic horror genre, especially cheesy monster movies. You would be hard pressed to find an iconic horror monster that isn't represented in Castlevania. The gotic tone, darker premise, and set ups are something not many series have been able to replicate. And it does all of this without needless gross-out gore, or even that much scare factor. It's just a really fun tone that is handled respectfully.

And that's not even mentioning Symphony of the Night onwards, in which the series laid the foundation for the ever popular "Metroidvania" genre of which it shares half the name. So many amazing games in this catagory.

Nor does that even cover the continuity, fantastic characters from game to game, the STELLAR music, occasional humor, undertones, blahblahblah...

I guess to TL:DR it, Castlevania hangs in the hall of fame of both classic platformers and Metroidvania's, as both video games and stories. It's as historically important as all the other platformers currently represented in Smash.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Ahh. That's reasonable.

I didn't consider the art on the box lol

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You can also say the same for Cranky, who overall is more central to the DK series than Dixie.

So? The argument is about Dixie VS K.Rool, Cranky, while I'd love to see him, doesn't matter in this argument

An extra point for you.
Consider Dixie Kong is on the box-art for Donkey Kong Country 2, Donkey Kong Country 3, Donkey Kong Land 2, and Donkey Kong Land 3; a casual player who hasn't seen Donkey Kong Country since the mid-90s (and may or may not have finished the games) might see the cover of Tropical Freeze or the hypothetical Dixie Kong in Smash and say: "Oh, Dixie Kong! I remember her! I liked Dixie Kong!"

K. Rool wasn't on the cover of any of the Donkey Kong games, as far as I know, so a casual Nintendo fan who a) Didn't finish any DKC games as a kid; b) never read the manual; and/or c) has a bad memory for characters that they don't spend lots of time with; will have little to know idea who K. Rool is.

I believe K.Rool was on 2's boxart, but more in the background than Diddy and Dixie

 

[Freduardo]

Look, what we’re all forgetting is the most important time for Donkey Kong was the GameCube era.

That’s right. Four player Donkey Konga

You can play as DK, Diddy, Dixie, and Funky.

The proves beyond the shadow of a doubt Funky is the most relevant Kong.

 

[Pakky]

This is super cool! Fan made btw

 

[Enchess]

You can also say the same for Cranky, who overall is more central to the DK series than Dixie.

You aren't going to convince anyone that Cranky is in the same position as Dixie. They may have had roughly equal role in TF, but Dixie has a better history in addition to that. She is playable in 3/5 DKC games, 2 of which are lead roles. That's only 1 less than Diddy and actually tied with Donkey himself. Cranky is playable once in a sidekick role.

K Rool really only competes in a meaningful way with Dixie for inclusion for 2 reasons: passionate fanbase (have never seen this for Cranky) and being the series antagonist, which I'd argue is worth at least some special consideration.

 

[Knight Dude]

I was just about to bring up Hayabusa as a possible DLC character. I definitely don’t think he’s making base but DLC? Hell yeah, I can see it. I mean The original Ninja Gaiden Trilogy was all NES exclusive, he got a Trilogy compilation as a SNES exclusive, Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword was a DS exclusive, Nintendo published Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor’s Edge as a timed Wii U launch exclusive, and that’s all without even mentioning their work on the Nintendo Warriors games and Other M or that Metroid crossover in Dead or Alive Dimensions. There are a decreasing amount of relevant noteworthy 3rd parties that aren’t in Smash and Hayabusa is one of the most noteworthy.

Others I would include are Rayman, maybe Doom Slayer, and probably Lara Croft. I dunno.

After Bayo and Snake, I think more violent characters could be toned down without missing everything to what they are. Or at least I would hope so with the case of either Lara Croft or Scorpion/Sub-Zero, if their snowball's chance in hell actually became real.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Classic Castlevania is pretty much in the same boat as classic . Castlevania 1,2 and 3 were all popular NES games that, while difficult, were extremely solidly crafted platformers that are mostly fair.

...Well, 1 and 3 anyway. 2 at least laid the foundation for the future Metroidvania's.

And of course, there's so many other beloved and fantastic Classicvanias, especially 4 and Rondo of Blood. Classicvania is just fantastic, arcadey fun.

The other thing that makes Castlevania as beloved as it is is the world and premise. It's a giant love letter to the classic horror genre, especially cheesy monster movies. You would be hard pressed to find an iconic horror monster that isn't represented in Castlevania. The gotic tone, darker premise, and set ups are something not many series have been able to replicate. And it does all of this without needless gross-out gore, or even that much scare factor. It's just a really fun tone that is handled respectfully.

And that's not even mentioning Symphony of the Night onwards, in which the series laid the foundation for the ever popular "Metroidvania" genre of which it shares half the name. So many amazing games in this catagory.

Nor does that even cover the continuity, fantastic characters from game to game, the STELLAR music, occasional humor, undertones, blahblahblah...

I guess to TL:DR it, Castlevania hangs in the hall of fame of both classic platformers and Metroidvania's, as both video games and stories. It's as historically important as all the other platformers currently represented in Smash.

Much better stated than I did.

I still remember my happiness when they actually put Rondo of Blood on the Wii VC. (it's my personal favorite Classicvania since then.)

 

[Lady Byakugan]

I think people saying DK is underrepresented fail to realize DK is a subseries of Mario, much like Yoshi. That said, I still want more reps for it, but that point still needs to be acknowledged.

And speaking of which, I want Pauline as a DK rep

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Lara's issue is that in her most iconic form? She uses very real double pistols. There's no way around doing Lara Croft without the double pistols even the reboot series that have tried to distance from them and the movie that spun out of them acknowledge Lara's double pistols.

I don't know if Bayo changed anything about guns rule wise (her guns are red and blue after all in both her appearances and she wears them on her heels as well) but if she did then Lara should be fine, but the fact her weapons still have an element of whimsy and fantasy? She might not have.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

An extra point for you.
Consider Dixie Kong is on the box-art for Donkey Kong Country 2, Donkey Kong Country 3, Donkey Kong Land 2, and Donkey Kong Land 3; a casual player who hasn't seen Donkey Kong Country since the mid-90s (and may or may not have finished the games) might see the cover of Tropical Freeze or the hypothetical Dixie Kong in Smash and say: "Oh, Dixie Kong! I remember her! I liked Dixie Kong!"

K. Rool wasn't on the cover of any of the Donkey Kong games, as far as I know, so a casual Nintendo fan who a) Didn't finish any DKC games as a kid; b) never read the manuals; and/or c) has a bad memory for characters that they don't spend lots of time with; will have little to know idea who K. Rool is.

Isn't it also true that K Rool only actually appears during the final boss in the first 3 DKC games? these games are hard and I imagine a lot of people didn't actually get to that point anyway, Dixie as a playable character from the start kind of has an advantage there too.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Moveset potential is never a factor, you know this, everyone knows this.

- originally a picture
- originally a picture
- originally a picture
- originally a picture
-Life sim
- Fitness instructor
- A toy
- Mini games
- A game over screen
- Avatars


Being discussed, well subjective point.

People saying "moveset potential doesn't matter" are reminding me of the people earlier who claimed "representation doesn't matter". Yeah Sakurai largely madeup movesets for some characters, but Sakurai's ability to imagine a unique and interesting moveset for a character is absolutely a factor in his roster decision, while it lead to the inclusion and exclusion of characters before. Of examples we know of, Ice Climbers got in as the retro rep of Melee over other NES characters because Sakurai saw greater potential with them than their competitors, who he found insufficient. Then he scoffed at Miyamoto suggesting Pac-Man in Brawl because he couldn't envision how Pac-Man would fight. And then we all know the tale of Chrom, who lost out on his chance in Smash 4 because Sakurai didn't see him as being distinct enough from Marth and Ike, while the big part of choosing Robin was that s/he brought moveset potential unlike the other Fire Emblem characters.

Obvious unique moveset potential is certainly not required, but not having it is certainly a detriment to being chosen over other competitors. It's just another factor to the complicated decision of deciding which characters get chosen for the roster over others.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

An extra point for you.
Consider Dixie Kong is on the box-art for Donkey Kong Country 2, Donkey Kong Country 3, Donkey Kong Land 2, and Donkey Kong Land 3; a casual player who hasn't seen Donkey Kong Country since the mid-90s (and may or may not have finished the games) might see the cover of Tropical Freeze or the hypothetical Dixie Kong in Smash and say: "Oh, Dixie Kong! I remember her! I liked Dixie Kong!"

K. Rool wasn't on the cover of any of the Donkey Kong games, as far as I know, so a casual Nintendo fan who a) Didn't finish any DKC games as a kid; b) never read the manuals; and/or c) has a bad memory for characters that they don't spend lots of time with; will have little to know idea who K. Rool is.

 

[lltacx]

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Don't forget that K.Rool also showed in several cutscenes (including the intro) in DK64

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

I prefer the blond barbarian look. Unless Dovahkiin's in by some miracle, then he can be the blond barbarian and Simon can be a redhead.

 

[Fenriraga]

Much better stated than I did.

I still remember my happiness when they actually put Rondo of Blood on the Wii VC. (it's my personal favorite Classicvania since then.)

Rondo, 4 and 1 are VERY closely tied for my favorite classic style game. It would probably be Rondo if you had to twist my arm, because Richter is GOAT.

 

[CJ Falcon]

I think people saying DK is underrepresented fail to realize DK is a subseries of Mario, much like Yoshi. That said, I still want more reps for it, but that point still needs to be acknowledged.

And speaking of which, I want Pauline as a DK rep

Yoshi originated in a game with "Mario" in the title. Donkey Kong did not. Not to mention, the DK series doesn't bring over characters from the Mario series like Yoshi does with the Mario Bros., Shy Guys, Kamek, Bowser, Koopas, etc. Don't see How DKC belongs to the Mario universe.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Now that I think about it, box art also helped Ridley's popularity. The box art of Super Metroid has Samus and Ridley fight and this clearly has part of Ridley's influence as it gives him his iconic proportions. Hell, one of his palette swaps is a reference to that box art

 

[Enchess]

I think people saying DK is underrepresented fail to realize DK is a subseries of Mario, much like Yoshi. That said, I still want more reps for it, but that point still needs to be acknowledged.

And speaking of which, I want Pauline as a DK rep

If we're going into technicalities, Mario is a subseries of Donkey Kong. That just makes it even more silly DK doesn't have more representation yet.

I really don't think Mario and DK can actually be considered related in a similar way to Mario and Yoshi. Yoshi uses enemies and setting from Mario whereas DK has it's own unique setting and cast. Their only connection is historical and the sports/party spinoffs.

 

[KMDP]

Isn't it also true that K Rool only actually appears during the final boss in the first 3 DKC games? these games are hard and I imagine a lot of people didn't actually get to that point anyway, Dixie as a playable character from the start kind of has an advantage there too.

YES! EXACTLY!

I never finished Donkey Kong Country 1 (couldn't get past the... Lake world...?), and never played the other Country games.
I did play the Land games, though.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Characters like K. Rool already has a crazy moveset made for him. It'd be pretty easy to put him in Smash. He checks all the boxes similar to Ridley, though unlike Ridley, K. Rool's problem is relevancy. I don't really agree with that being a reason to keep him out though.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

Knowing Sakurai he'd try to use both Conan Simon and the Redhead.

Rondo, 4 and 1 are VERY closely tied for my favorite classic style game. It would probably be Rondo if you had to twist my arm, because Richter is GOAT.

Richter is great! It's part of why if Simon gets in I hope they do a koopalings thing with him with the other Belmonts but I think what I suggested above is more likely.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Don't forget that K.Rool also showed in several cutscenes (including the intro) in DK64

I prefer the blond barbarian look. Unless Dovahkiin's in by some miracle, then he can be the blond barbarian and Simon can be a redhead.

There's also the animated series too

 

[Troykv]

I think people saying DK is underrepresented fail to realize DK is a subseries of Mario, much like Yoshi. That said, I still want more reps for it, but that point still needs to be acknowledged.

And speaking of which, I want Pauline as a DK rep

Personally I see Donkey Kong (Franchise) and Mario as derivated series of "Donkey Kong (Arcade)"

 

[KMDP]

Do you guys want the Hercules looking version of Simon or the redheaded S&M version? (Tbh i like neither)

Why not both? Alts are a thing.

When I draw Smash 4 stocks in 2015. I did Simon Belmont as a sort of hybrid. Manly like the original, but with Red hair. It looked pretty good, but it's probably not what fans would necessarily want. XD

 

[Deleted member]

Alucard > Simon
fact