Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Jedisupersonic]

Oh yeah. Tails is easily the most unique character out of the fighters suggested for Sonic. That's exactly why I want him over the others.

He's also Sonic's Luigi, whereas, comparatively, Mario didn't get his Shadow until Brawl.

True, I'm just banking on Shadow more from the effort standpoint, and bias. I fully understand that Tails and co could be more original, but I'm kinda going off the lack of seeing him as an AT (for the moment). I actually agree with the Luigi deal but I'll refer to my post before where I did my Dragon Ball comparison (seeing as Sonic has drawn quite a bit from it I felt it was apt). I think overall the fanbase would have a bigger reaction to Shadow like when they learned he was playable in Forces again, along with the fact that Shadow's first game was ported to the GC, and was quite a few peoples first Sonic game, it's a weird spot overall.

I personally would be ok with either, I've just put my Egg(man) in the basket and that's Shadow for now.

 

[Enchess]

That's an argument because it's true of some people and some games. Granted Sakurai is a master of making movesets looking at Wii Fit Trainer and R.O.B.

But there's little to nothing in Runner gameplay that translates to a moveset. It's all running and jumping.

To be fair...

 

[Pakky]

But there's little to nothing in Mr. Runner gameplay that translates to a moveset. It's all running and jumping.

I...mean

- Stretching and breathing?

- Laughs at you for missing or grabs a dead duck?

- Does nothing hostile at all.

- Doesn't do anything in her original game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I mean they're adding female Pikachu with the heart shaped tail to the game, it wouldn't be too odd to see a female Pichu.

Pichu doesn't even have any gender differences, so it would all come down to what accessories it's wearing.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Mario has power ups, he attacks enemies with them, he's used things like FLUDD, a cape, spins, etc, Mario is way more than running and jumping.

I acknowledged Wii Fit Trainer, but even she in hindsight has moveset potential when you think about yoga and what not. Granted it's not something you use to attack typically.

Duck Hunt was a first person shooter. A gun element was always gonna be in his moveset. Soooo...yeah he's not a good example.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Super Mario 64 as well as having insider info on some of the RPGs where Mario can use pyrokinesis, I'd argue, were the main inspirations for Smash Mario in the beginning.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Then that only adds to my point. A second playable SEGA character who counts as Third Party is now looking even more opaque than ever, while the Konami characters who aren't Snake seem to be delegated to AT material as well. Sakurai knew he was popular, as he wouldn't have called Bomberman a special guest and simply state "Yep. He's here!" when Bomberman was at his most relevant during development time and had a clear following in the community.

I'm not gonna attach myself to a leaker who's already shaky as it is just yet. If ANY Third Party is getting a second rep, it's SEGA. Konami already had all of its characters cut once and now recently came back when Sonic has been here for three games straight.

Bayo... people are hesitant to truly call her "Third Party" to begin with so, she's shaky on if she even counts.

This makes little to no sense, sorry.
So because Bomberman's an assist trophy, there's no chance of an axtra Konami character?
We don't know the reason Bomberman's merely an assist trophy, though if I was Sakurai, I'd believe his homogeneous moveset would be rather dull. Also, at his most relevant? Because of a single game? I doubt that personally

Sega already HAS a second character, so does Capcom, it really isn't that unheard of

Bayonetta is owned by SEGA. Nintendo does NOT have the legal rights for her, SEGA does. It isn't up for debate

Personally, I'm all aboard the Tails boat, myself. I can acknowledge the cons, however, evem if they can be passable, it's still something to consider


And where's your citation?

I mean, it's pretty obvious. Dixie was in Tropical Freeze. K.Rool was not. A casual fan of the series who'd pick up Tropical Freeze would therefore know and prefer Dixie

Does Pheonix Wright have moveset potential? That's gotta stop being an argument.

I mean, your example was of a character who was literally in an actual traditional fighting game and was a playable character in Project X Zone 2. Sakurai has shown he doesn't stick to the main games for moves, Mega Man's Mega Upper from Marvel VS Capcom is in his moveset and is specifically mentioned as a reference to such, while Sonic has some Sonic the Fighters inspiration. Sakurai would clearly look at those games if he wanted to add Pheonix Wright as a playable character

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Super Mario 64 as well as having insider info on some of the RPGs where Mario can use pyrokinesis, I'd argue, were the main inspirations for Smash Mario in the beginning.

Speaking of that pyrokinesis, I always felt after Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga, Luigi's fireball should have been changed to Thunderhand, but I guess that might be a little silly. Plus I think Luigi mains would miss their fireball tool.

 

[Opossum]

I...mean

- Stretching and breathing?

- Laughs at you for missing or grabs a dead duck?

Yoga has far more things to pull from than simply running due to the sheer variety of poses. Not to mention literally everyone in Smash can run and jump, and NEEDS to, by default.

And being a dog and duck gives Duck Hunt access to moves that a dog and duck could do, as their body types allow for different moves compared to most of the cast.

But most of all, the question comes down to whether it'd be worth pursuing a third party with that little potential. And hell, if you did want a third party who mostly runs and jumps...Frogger could be infinitely more interesting just by having frog physiology as opposed to being vaguely humanoid.

Moveset potential is often an overstated issue, but in some circumstances I feel it's a legitimate concern. This is one of those circumstances.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Pichu doesn't even have any gender differences, so it would all come down to what accessories it's wearing.

Spiky Eared Pichu would be female as that's the gender that one specific Pokemon is but, as you say, there's not gender differences in the Pichu species as a whole

 

[RileyXY1]

This makes little to no sense, sorry.
So because Bomberman's an assist trophy, there's no chance of an axtra Konami character?
We don't know the reason Bomberman's merely an assist trophy, though if I was Sakurai, I'd believe his homogeneous moveset would be rather dull. Also, at his most relevant? Because of a single game? I doubt that personally

Sega already HAS a second character, so does Capcom, it really isn't that unheard of

Bayonetta is owned by SEGA. Nintendo does NOT have the legal rights for her, SEGA does. It isn't up for debate

I mean, it's pretty obvious. Dixie was in Tropical Freeze. K.Rool was not. A casual fan of the series who'd pick up Tropical Freeze would therefore know and prefer Dixie

I mean, your example was of a character who was literally in an actual traditional fighting game and was a playable character in Project X Zone 2. Sakurai has shown he doesn't stick to the main games for moves, Mega Man's Mega Upper from Marvel VS Capcom is in his moveset and is specifically mentioned as a reference to such, while Sonic has some Sonic the Fighters inspiration. Sakurai would clearly look at those games if he wanted to add Pheonix Wright as a playable character

Just for the record, the Mega Upper actually debuted in Mega Man 2: The Power Fighters, an obscure fighting game.

 

[KMDP]

I mean, it's pretty obvious. Dixie was in Tropical Freeze. K.Rool was not. A casual fan of the series who'd pick up Tropical Freeze would therefore know and prefer Dixie.

...Was it really so obvious I had actually forgotten that point? My word can I be dumb!
Thanks for reminding me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just for the record, the Mega Upper actually debuted in Mega Man 2: The Power Fighters, an obscure arcade only fighting game.

Ah, my bad, Sakurai said it was from MvC. Also it was in the Mega Man Anniversary collection

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The more I think about this new Smash, if King K Rool gets in (and his odds are high at this point I feel), I’m willing to pretty much accept any newcomer that isn’t too absurd (Sans, Solaire, Master Chief, Goku, etc)

I mean the dream of possibility is if King K Rool, Geno, and Ashley all get in. There’s so many other characters that I’m fine with as long as they get interesting move sets or are just more basic Echoes or Semi-Clones.

At the same time, there’s so many fewer obvious picks or big names that makes this process a little more fun. And the fact the whole veteran situation has already been addressed means less issues with that as well. Plus the unfortunate casualties to assist trophies and poke balls. It just means I’m very excited and far more open to possibilities of newcomers. I obviously would love for Sakurai to base newcomers on big fan requests, since most of my desired ones are those as well, but I’m just excited to have a new Smash cycle and hope to see a newcomer soon to keep he hype cycle going.

 

[Pakky]

Duck Hunt was a first person shooter. A gun element was always gonna be in his moveset. Soooo...yeah he's not a good example.

The dog and duck are an amalgamate of the Zapper and its games. They do not shoot anything, not even in smash. "You" do.
And it was never guaranteed that they were going to be part of the game, or even have Zapper elements.

Is only used for fitness but you know that. And doesn't incorporate the Wii balance board into her moveset despite that being HEAVILY associated with her. It's just a friend that hangs out on her stage.

Does nothing in Galaxy 1or 2 and is an amalgamate of those games.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

while Sonic has some Sonic the Fighters inspiration. Sakurai would clearly look at those games if he wanted to add Pheonix Wright as a playable character

I still wish Sonic drew more from Sonic Battle like his PM self did, but I guess it's a pipedream at this point, at least he's looking to be more aggressively inclined in Ultimate. Kinda also wish he had his Rush/Unleashed onward boost as a Side B rough short range tackle.

I've wanted to properly main Sonic since Brawl but found his style too campy for me. Hope Ultimate, ultimately changed that.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

This makes little to no sense, sorry.
So because Bomberman's an assist trophy, there's no chance of an axtra Konami character?
We don't know the reason Bomberman's merely an assist trophy, though if I was Sakurai, I'd believe his homogeneous moveset would be rather dull. Also, at his most relevant? Because of a single game? I doubt that personally

Sega already HAS a second character, so does Capcom, it really isn't that unheard of

Bayonetta is owned by SEGA. Nintendo does NOT have the legal rights for her, SEGA does. It isn't up for debate

I mean, it's pretty obvious. Dixie was in Tropical Freeze. K.Rool was not. A casual fan of the series who'd pick up Tropical Freeze would therefore know and prefer Dixie

I mean, your example was of a character who was literally in an actual traditional fighting game and was a playable character in Project X Zone 2. Sakurai has shown he doesn't stick to the main games for moves, Mega Man's Mega Upper from Marvel VS Capcom is in his moveset and is specifically mentioned as a reference to such, while Sonic has some Sonic the Fighters inspiration. Sakurai would clearly look at those games if he wanted to add Pheonix Wright as a playable character

So Bayonetta is Third Party? Okay, then maybe Simon can get in. I was basing it on the popular belief that Bayo was more of a second party since it's exclusive to Nintendo now.

Though, to be fair, Sakurai DID make the exception to Bayo because she was a ballot winner and number 1 in Europe. Simon has no such luxury to fall back on.

Also, note my post later on that clarifies I meant the Smash fanbase, not DK.

Also, TF should be a non-factor if people believe Funky will come out of it due to being a time constraint Echo.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Rosalina was obviously a powerful magic user. She astral projects herself all over the damn place in those games. It's why she makes sense as a puppet fighter. Soooooooo again not really that great of an example.

 

[KingBroly]

So Bayonetta is Third Party? Okay, then maybe Simon can get in. I was basing it on the popular belief that Bayo was more of a second party since it's exclusive to Nintendo now.

Though, to be fair, Sakurai DID make the exception to Bayo because she was a ballot winner and number 1 in Europe. Simon has no such luxury to fall back on.

Sega still owns the IP. Why Nintendo doesn't just buy it, considering they will own 2/3 of the games, I don't know. And Bayonetta wasn't the "Ballot Winner," but the "Realizable Ballot Winner," a key distinction to make. We don't know who won the...okay, it was obviously Inkling.

When did Minecraft first hit Wii U? Wasn't in 2015?

 

[Enchess]

Mario has power ups, he attacks enemies with them, he's used things like FLUDD, a cape, spins, etc, Mario is way more than running and jumping.

Sure, but he didn't have FLUDD when he was included. Just the cape and fireball. That's only 2 moves. Runner would obviously take moves from all the Bit Trip series, like how Game & Watch takes from various smaller games. Pacman is probably a good example of how it could work too.

I agree Runner isn't a great choice, but not because of moveset. The Bit Trip series as a whole has more than enough to supply a moveset for him.

And Bayonetta wasn't the "Ballot Winner," but the "Realizable Ballot Winner," a key distinction to make.

I think "Realizable" was code for "we can directly lift animations and character models". It makes sense with how fast her turn around was and with Nintendo likely having easy access to the relevant files.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'm still just in shock and awe that Smash Ultimate exists. I never, in a million years, would've guessed we would get everyone and basically every stage back. That's insane! Mr. Sakurai is making his true magnum opus and after this, I'd be totally fine if he was done with Smash.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Sega still owns the IP. Why Nintendo doesn't just buy it, considering they will own 2/3 of the games, I don't know. And Bayonetta wasn't the "Ballot Winner," but the "Realizable Ballot Winner," a key distinction to make. We don't know who won the...okay, it was obviously Inkling.

When did Minecraft first hit Wii U? Wasn't in 2015?

She still won, regardless, however, as the most popular picks were likely meme characters and sunce Ninty and SEGA are close, it was an easy "yes"

 

[Will]

Oh boy we're in the 20th century of page count already? Can't wait for 1945.

Does nothing in Galaxy 1or 2 and is an amalgamate of those games.

She reset the universe at the end of Galaxy 1.

 

[Pakky]

Rosalina was obviously a powerful magic user. She astral projects herself all over the damn place in those games. It's why she makes sense as a puppet fighter. Soooooooo again not really that great of an example.

I think you're taking subjective reasoning as fact.

astral projection and resetting universes don't immediately make one think of her using the Luma as a puppet character or using the elements of Galaxy as her moveset


Point is if the character has traits at their disposal or from their game, it can be turned into a moveset.

An NPC that just appears? Given a unique moveset

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Why nobody mentioning ?

 

[osby]

I'm still just in shock and awe that Smash Ultimate exists. I never, in a million years, would've guessed we would get everyone and basically every stage back. That's insane! Mr. Sakurai is making his true magnum opus and after this, I'd be totally fine if he was done with Smash.

Couldn't said it better. Yeah, Sakurai will likely stop making Smash after this one. He's doing it for more than 15 years with only, what, Uprising as another game?
This will be the definitive Smash, so we can happily complain about how bad next ones are, and how good Ultimate was in the future. :D

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't think you quite grasp what I'm getting at Pakky so I'm just gonna drop it. Everyone you've listed has something about them that says ''fighter potential" in some way except Wii Fit Trainer. There was something in their game, they themselves, etc.

You're just listing people and every single one has something about that that makes sense. Like you just said Sheik? But of course a ninja warrior is gonna have moveset potential.

Runner really does not.

Runner's idea that was just thrown out was ''Make him like Pac Man" and then? He's not really unique. He's doing Pac Man's gimmick.

 

[KMDP]

In summary, I would consider Dixie, K. Rool, Ashley, Geno, Tails, Shadow and Simon thusly:

Dixie: Very Likely; from a casual standpoint, between Dixie and K. Rool you should put your money on the monkey.
K. Rool: Also Very Likely, the Mii Costume exists for a reason, but don't let your hopes soar.
Ashley: Extremely Likely, she is popular in Japan, and might have been one of the highest voted 1st party non-veteran on the Japanese version of the ballot (boy, isn't that an overly narrow superlative? XD) for all we know.
Geno: About 50/50. Like K. Rool, he has a Mii Costume, but he's appeared far less than K. Rool.
Tails: Barring the possibility that multiple third party franchise reps are a no-go. Tails is Very Likely. Otherwise he's Reasonable.
Shadow: Shadow's assist trophy hasn't been seen, and his similar build to Sonic makes him a Likely Echo Fighter, or a Reasonable Semi-Clone.
Simon: Likely. He has potential as a character. It depends on how much people want him.

 

[Knight Dude]

I feel that IF we get an indie character, it'll likely be one that have done well on the ballot.

We can't know for sure obviously who did how well exactly, but going by discussions on various sites, I'm inclined to think Shovel Knight, Shantae or Quote have slightly less than minuscule chances. A lot of people were rooting for them.

Though I'd be willing to bet Simon or Rayman are more likely than them since they are more well known.

 

[Will]

Simon: Likely. There is no reason why he shouldn't be in the game, but also no reason why he should, either.

How does that make it likely if it's neither here or there? Just say you're neutral bruv.

 

[Pakky]

I don't think you quite grasp what I'm getting at Pakky so I'm just gonna drop it. Everyone you've listed has something about them that says ''fighter potential" in some way except Wii Fit Trainer. There was something in their game, they themselves, etc.

You're just listing people and every single one has something about that that makes sense. Like you just said Sheik? But of course a ninja warrior is gonna have moveset potential.

Runner really does not.

Runner's idea that was just thrown out was ''Make him like Pac Man" and then? He's not really unique. He's doing Pac Man's gimmick.

Subjective reasoning.

What does in OOC that is reflected in her moveset?

- A race car driver

- A toy that's not even a video game character but a peripheral.

There is always something to work with, this is indicative of your "They're obviously____"statements.

Even though they have nothing, theme, the game itself, or flavor text are all pools to draw from.

In Commander Video's case:

He could have the potential to use a variety of kicking or sliding moves in his move set.

He could hit you with Boom Box soundwaves

Throw gold bars and gems at you

Summon traps at you

Rush at you on a variety of vehicles

Anything can be used.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

If we had to choose an indie to get in my choice would easily be Shantae. I mean she’s like the original indie. Appearing on the Gameboy Color and published by Capcom back in the day and now she’s basically a full blown mascot for indies in general. I like Shovel Knight fine, but I don’t really WANT him in Smash. Not that he wouldn’t be great but my choice goes to The Half-Genie Hero easily.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

One thing I'm willing to agree on is that if we get a Shadow Echo or unique Tails, then Simon would be bumped up to very likely. If not base, could be DLC.

Of coursw, this works conversely as well.

 

[KMDP]

How does that make it likely if it's neither here or there? Just say you're neutral bruv.

Good point! Hmm... I should probably reword that bit.

EDIT: Reworded it to be a little less neutral, and more accurate to my personal beliefs about it.

 

[SmashingXan2]

My indie choice is Shovel Knight, he seems to have been highly requested during the Smash Ballot, he's appeared on the Wii U, and has an amibo they can use

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't even know why you're defending Runner this much. The only idea thrown out for him is just ripping off what Pac Man does.

And you're doing it and trying to sound like you're meaning something.

''Subjective reasoning" or not. Yes. A ninja warrior is gonna have moveset potential. Yes. A dog who starred in a game with a shooting element might have shooting material. Mario a character with years of history even when he was conceived was gonna have moveset potential. Your only valid points are Wii Fit and R.O.B.

Even Captain Falcon could have had a moveset dealing with racing. It's not highly feasible, but it would have made sense.

 

[osby]

One thing I'm willing to agree on is that if we get a Shadow Echo or unique Tails, then Simon would be bumped up to very likely. If not base, could be DLC.

Of coursw, this works conversely as well.

They are properties of different companies, so, no, it doesn't say too much.

 

[Louie G.]

Been out of the game for a while, is it still okay to post rosters here? I just downloaded the updated Roster Maker and made a little mock-up of what I've been expecting/thinking about for Ultimate, but I'm not sure if there's a better place to do that now.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So Bayonetta is Third Party? Okay, then maybe Simon can get in. I was basing it on the popular belief that Bayo was more of a second party since it's exclusive to Nintendo now.

Though, to be fair, Sakurai DID make the exception to Bayo because she was a ballot winner and number 1 in Europe. Simon has no such luxury to fall back on.

Also, note my post later on that clarifies I meant the Smash fanbase, not DK.

Also, TF should be a non-factor if people believe Funky will come out of it due to being a time constraint Echo.

Yeah, it's a surprisingly common mistake, though I get why one would make that

Actually, Sakurai has stated he's very fond of CastleVania, so that could be a factor. Also again, Capcom already has 2 characters too.

Hadn't seen that, sorry

Well, that's the Switch port specifically. The Wii U game came out a little before Smash right? Dixie was in that one so the same argument for Funky doesn't apply to her as her game came out a few years prior to the Switch port

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

They are properties of different companies, so, no, it doesn't say too much.

In similar situations; worst case scenario being Konami says "no" despite already having two in there.