Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Tree Gelbman]

WAIT A MINUTE!

Shadow, Ashley, Skull Kid, they all had one thing in common. Weird wobbly surround effects that did status type things.

What if to fit with the faster gameplay (and that they'd be useless if they stand there and could be KO'd), they're being reworked as different AT instead of playable. Not the situation any of us wanted but it could happen.

It’s a fair thought but also still odd it’s three popular fan favorites at the same time.

 

[KMDP]

"Well actually, Sakurai's the only one can label these things"

I'd say Sakurai made the definition of what constitutes an echo pretty clear. Just from showing us the three, and declaring Dr. Mario, the alt Links and Pichu "not-echoes".

Ok but Dark Pit outright wanted his own identity in Uprising, hating Pit and learning to begrudgingly co-operate because if something happens to Pit, he suffers the same fate. And Shadow's personality while different, doesn't go against the idea of being similar to Sonic so heavily as the character who literally wants their own identity only to do almost exactly the same **** despite claws, cannons, palms, swords, etc being part of his potential arsenal.

I dunno, there could be a canon reason Dark Pit has all the same equipment (except, like, two or three weapons):

Both Pit and Dark Pit took a look at their respective arsenals, and chose the what they felt was the best equipment for the job, the reason why they chose mostly the same equipment is because they're literally the same guy.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I don't really know how so many people are able to speak definitively about exactly what makes an echo vs. a clone vs. a semi-clone. We've got three echoes, two of which were considered clones in Sm4sh (who did have different hitboxes - Lucy lacked the tipper and was slightly shorter - or moves - Pittoo had a different side special and FS), and now one new one who was not playable in the demo (who is confirmed to have different animations, and may have different effects on attacks - bomber hits down).

So realistically, we have no information other than "echo fighters are a thing and they're a type of clone."

I don't know where people are getting this idea that echoes need to be literally 100% carbon copies of the parent, since that's demonstrably false with the three we have. Those are called alts, do not take a character spot, and are also confirmed (Alph, Koopalings)

Maybe we need to get some more information before we start jumping to conclusions...?


Tails says hello.

I think we can more or less assume echoes have all the same moves, but can have different attributes. I've seen people say Dark Pits side B is the same as Pits just with different effects, but someone correct me on that I don't play either of the Pits.

It is strange that their Final Smashes can be different.
For the most part the difference between echoes and "regular clones" is pretty clear, as Doctor Mario is an example of someone who could be an echo imo, but isn't due to a couple of different moves.

However I'm a little lost on Pichu. Does it actually have different moves? I feel like a slight size difference and the self damaging property isn't enough to set him apart from echoes based on what we have established so far (Lucina both slightly shorter as well as different properties for her blade).

It would be nice if Sakurai clarified in the next couple months, but I doubt it lol. It does seem that echoes have to be pretty 1:1 based on which "regular clones" aren't echoes.

 

[NextChannelGames]

Wow, each day on here it’s a different topic either it’s new or a repeat.

By the way... What classic character you guys think we’ll get for this new smash?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Let's assume that Echos are Dark Pit level Clones going in and then be pleasantly surprised if they're Melee clone levels.

 

[Deleted member]

"Well actually, Sakurai's the only one can label these things" Well, actually, Sakurai is also the person who'd decide if Shadow would be an Echo or unique. See what I did? I just used the same argument you did, changed some words around and shockingly enough, it's the same point regardless! :o
I mean, you're kinda doing the same by saying what you think for a fact will actually happen

That's a significantly better argument, congrats. Not even sass, you actually made a decent argument which is a first I've seen tbh

Ok but Dark Pit outright wanted his own identity in Uprising, hating Pit and learning to begrudgingly co-operate because if something happens to Pit, he suffers the same fate. And Shadow's personality while different, doesn't go against the idea of being similar to Sonic so heavily as the character who literally wants their own identity only to do almost exactly the same **** despite claws, cannons, palms, swords, etc being part of his potential arsenal

Obviously, we're all just speculating here. But I'm still on the boat that Shadow will likely be an Echo Fighter all things considered. Again, Occam's Razor and all that. He's certianly not gonna be a clone or original character. I'd eat my shoe if that happens. I don't even like Shadow. And tbh, I'm not even that convinced he'll be an Echo, he just seems like one of the most likely options. But he could very well just be out of the game, or Sonic just gets 2 ATs. Dark Samus on the other hand... that one I'm 99% sure is in as an Echo. Like, Dark Samus and K.Rool are the two characters I'm most sure are in.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't really know how so many people are able to speak definitively about exactly what makes an echo vs. a clone vs. a semi-clone. We've got three echoes, two of which were considered clones in Sm4sh (who did have different hitboxes - Lucy lacked the tipper and was slightly shorter - or moves - Pittoo had a different side special and FS), and now one new one who was not playable in the demo (who is confirmed to have different animations, and may have different effects on attacks - bomber hits down).

So realistically, we have no information other than "echo fighters are a thing and they're a type of clone."

I don't know where people are getting this idea that echoes need to be literally 100% carbon copies of the parent, since that's demonstrably false with the three we have. Those are called alts, do not take a character spot, and are also confirmed (Alph, Koopalings)

Maybe we need to get some more information before we start jumping to conclusions...?


Tails says hello.

around 17 minutes, that's what an echo fighter is

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No, that's actually the exact opposite of what I'm saying in fact. I said:

"2 months per character,"
There are less than 6 months between now and launch. Meaning, I'd say there are about 3 characters left, not counting echoes.

How and why you got that Echoes and Original characters take the same development time from that statement is beyond me. I picked 3 cause it's a nice round number that also lets you have a character reveal each month from now till launch. Echoes take very little development time, so you can easily squeeze one in while working on the other stuff.


Daisy's DownB and Uair have different animations from Peach. At least from what I can remember in the trailer. He running animation is different, her taunts, and her idle. She might have more, but I don't feel like checking.

The game's been in development for a while and they obviously haven't shown anything, we don't even know if the game has a singleplayer mode or trophies officially speaking
It just came across that only a single character could fill your "slots", as in an Echo could fill that 'slot' as well as a unique character would

I checked Daisy's Smash character trailer, the presentation and her site section's pictures. Her Up Air is the same as Peach's, which uses the little rainbow. She never actually uses a Down B move, but rather the same moves Peach has always had. The only real difference is facial expressions, which obviously don't affect the move from a gameplay perspective

I'd say Sakurai made the definition of what constitutes an echo pretty clear. Just from showing us the three, and declaring Dr. Mario, the alt Links and Pichu "not-echoes".

I dunno, there could be a canon reason Dark Pit has all the same equipment (except, like, two or three weapons):

Both Pit and Dark Pit took a look at their respective arsenals, and chose the what they felt was the best equipment for the job, the reason why they chose mostly the same equipment is because they're literally the same guy.

Still, it's surprisingly out of character far Dark Pit to use almost the exact same things Pit's using

 

[osby]

"Well actually, Sakurai's the only one can label these things" Well, actually, Sakurai is also the person who'd decide if Shadow would be an Echo or unique. See what I did? I just used the same argument you did, changed some words around and shockingly enough, it's the same point regardless! :o
I mean, you're kinda doing the same by saying what you think for a fact will actually happen

That's a significantly better argument, congrats. Not even sass, you actually made a decent argument which is a first I've seen tbh

Ok but Dark Pit outright wanted his own identity in Uprising, hating Pit and learning to begrudgingly co-operate because if something happens to Pit, he suffers the same fate. And Shadow's personality while different, doesn't go against the idea of being similar to Sonic so heavily as the character who literally wants their own identity only to do almost exactly the same **** despite claws, cannons, palms, swords, etc being part of his potential arsenal

I love Dark Pit but isn't he also plays same with Pit in Uprising, too? Yeah, he wants to be his own person but he still has his personality.

 

[KMDP]

I think we can more or less assume echoes have all the same moves, but can have different attributes. I've seen people say Dark Pits side B is the same as Pits just with different effects, but someone correct me on that I don't play either of the Pits.

They both rush forward and do an Uppercut with an "arm" weapon, they're the same.

It is strange that their Final Smashes can be different.

Not really, they're rare enough that they don't really change how the character plays.

For the most part the difference between echoes and "regular clones" is pretty clear, as Doctor Mario is an example of someone who could be an echo imo, but isn't due to a couple of different moves.

Yes, exactly right

However I'm a little lost on Pichu. Does it actually have different moves? I feel like a slight size difference and the self damaging property isn't enough to set him apart from echoes based on what we have established so far (Lucina both slightly shorter as well as different properties for her blade).

Lucina is negligibly smaller (like, by a pixel or so). Pichu is like half the size of Pikachu.
I think what matters in that respect is that this changes how YOU fight PICHU. In this instance, you have to accomodate for his smaller size and higher speed. With Lucina, Dark Pit and Daisy; you fight them pretty much the same way you would Marth, Pit and Peach. And even with Dr. Mario, he doesn't have a way to push you back with Water, changing your approach to him.

It would be nice if Sakurai clarified in the next couple months, but I doubt it lol. It does seem that echoes have to be pretty 1:1 based on which "regular clones" aren't echoes.

It would be nice, yeah. Stop all these pointless arguments.

 

[Murlough]

1. A speculation thread is gonna be nothing BUT opinions, lol.
2. It's just a matter of how well you're able to present you're argument. No one here is more right than others until proven right by Sakurai, some are simply just better at presenting arguments, simple as.
3. So feel free to do whatever you like.
4. But losing your cool is no way of convincing people to agree with whatever your opinion might be.

1. Blatantly incorrect.
2. Thank you.
3. I tend to.
4. Implying I had cool to begin with. I'm arguing with a guy about some edgy hedgehog in a video game and how great his personality is and why he shouldn't play like another hedgehog. (also, once again I haven't done anything or said anything to imply I'm upset or whatever.)

But, yeah. Opinions are not everything in speculation and if you actually think that then you haven't been paying much attention. Speculation also implies using what we know about something to come to or support conclusions, prior to actually knowing about something. "Just opinions" would make for a horribly boring discussion at least for me. I like people having actual reasons to think something and to give me a reason to think other then "I dunno, I like it."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I love Dark Pit but isn't he also plays same with Pit in Uprising, too? Yeah, he wants to be his own person but he still has his personality.

He does, but he has Pit's negative traits but amplified. You know that one scene in DBZ where the Ginyu Force are taken out and Goku thinks they've had enough yet Vegeta decides to kill them? Same situation with Pit and Dark Pit. If Palutena tells Pit to get a coffee, he asks "Cream and 2 sugar right?" Dark Pit would go "lol **** off". You can use the extra aggression in Dark Pit for animations and **** too

 

[Deleted member]

The game's been in development for a while and they obviously haven't shown anything, we don't even know if the game has a singleplayer mode or trophies officially speaking
It just came across that only a single character could fill your "slots", as in an Echo could fill that 'slot' as well as a unique character would

I checked Daisy's Smash character trailer, the presentation and her site section's pictures. Her Up Air is the same as Peach's, which uses the little rainbow. She never actually uses a Down B move, but rather the same moves Peach has always had. The only real difference is facial expressions, which obviously don't affect the move from a gameplay perspective

Still, it's surprisingly out of character far Dark Pit to use almost the exact same things Pit's using

I meant her counter. I forgot Peach used B for Toad, and Down B was turnips. Also, I'm pretty sure the animation for Uair is slightly different. Same move, different gesture.

 

[KMDP]

Same move, different gesture.

"Same move, different gesture" is still the same move, though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I meant her counter. I forgot Peach used B for Toad, and Down B was turnips. Also, I'm pretty sure the animation for Uair is slightly different. Same move, different gesture.

It's still the exact same move outside of facial expression in the case of the Toads. And I'm pretty sure it isn't, she swinged her arm the same way Peach did. It doesn't take that much effort to take the exact same move and slightly change a character's face

 

[Cosmic77]

Since we're on the topic of Daisy, I've seen a few people claim that her side special (Daisy Bomber?) launches characters downward instead of upward like Peach's.

If that's the case, I could actually see Daisy having the preferred moveset between the two.

 

[zeldasmash]

Downward as in Meteor Smash or downward as in semi-spike?

 

[osby]

He does, but he has Pit's negative traits but amplified. You know that one scene in DBZ where the Ginyu Force are taken out and Goku thinks they've had enough yet Vegeta decides to kill them? Same situation with Pit and Dark Pit. If Palutena tells Pit to get a coffee, he asks "Cream and 2 sugar right?" Dark Pit would go "lol **** off". You can use the extra aggression in Dark Pit for animations and **** too

Got it. Yeah, that would be nice (even though Pit is pretty aggressive in Smash to begin with).

Or Sakurai just counts a unique Final Smash as enough differences, who knows? Also, it's kinda weird how Pit's new one fits Dark Pit, too.

 

[Deleted member]

It's still the exact same move outside of facial expression in the case of the Toads. And I'm pretty sure it isn't, she swinged her arm the same way Peach did. It doesn't take that much effort to take the exact same move and slightly change a character's face

She's crouching away and covering her ears, Peach never did that.

 

[Murlough]

Since we're on the topic of Daisy, I've seen a few people claim that her side special (Daisy Bomber?) launches characters downward instead of upward like Peach's.

If that's the case, I could actually see Daisy having the preferred moveset between the two.

It doesn't. Rewatch her 20 second trailer and watch Yoshi's smoke trail. He goes up and out like Peach's.

I am curious about what they changed if anything. I'll probably play her no matter what though.

 

[Polan]

why is shadow even a possibility? we got 50+ assist trophies and i don't think that many of those are going to be new. they might have just cut him too. we certainly have had assist trophies cut with no explanation. the people arguing that he's a lock for an echo because he hasn't shown up aren't just reaching for straws but grabbing whole bags of them.

 

[KMDP]

Okay, so. This is an example I just thought up.

The first part of Sonic's Jab combo is a punch (naturally, a Jab, even). If Shadow's Jab were a horizontal karate chop (this is a difference between them in Sonic Battle, btw), but had the same frame data, vertical positioning relative to their bodies, hit box, horizontal range and (possibly) damage, the moves would be the same. Yes, they'd have different animations, but that would be entirely irrelevant to the fact that the moves serve the exact same function.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Got it. Yeah, that would be nice (even though Pit is pretty aggressive in Smash to begin with).

Or Sakurai just counts a unique Final Smash as enough differences, who knows? Also, it's kinda weird how Pit's new one fits Dark Pit, too.

Yeah when I tried thinking of a unique moveset for Dark Pit, I gave him the Lightning Chariot cause he uses it in Uprising too lmao

She's crouching away and covering her ears, Peach never did that.

Peach never did that UNTIL now, as seen in her character trailer where she uses it against a Mechakoopa

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

around 17 minutes, that's what an echo fighter is

I think someone pointed this out already but Dr. Mario's pills are used as an example, but don't Dark Pit's arrows function differently too? Once again not a Pit player lol.

Besides that though yea this makes it pretty clear. Forgot this video existed lol.

 

[Murlough]

why is shadow even a possibility? we got 50+ assist trophies and i don't think that many of those are going to be new. they might have just cut him too. we certainly have had assist trophies cut with no explanation. the people arguing that he's a lock for an echo because he hasn't shown up aren't just reaching for straws but grabbing whole bags of them.

Point someone out who said hes a shoo-in. I'll wait.

 

[KMDP]

I think someone pointed this out already but Dr. Mario's pills are used as an example, but don't Dark Pita arrows function differently too? Once again not a Pit player lol.

Besides that though yea this makes it pretty clear. Forgot this video existed lol.

Dr. Mario's pills are actually a bad example, tbh, considering Dark Pit's arrows. XD

Dr. Mario not having F.L.U.D.D. would have been the much better example.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah when I tried thinking of a unique moveset for Dark Pit, I gave him the Lightning Chariot cause he uses it in Uprising too lmao

Peach never did that UNTIL now, as seen in her character trailer where she uses it against a Mechakoopa

Oh well, that's that I guess.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think we can more or less assume echoes have all the same moves, but can have different attributes. I've seen people say Dark Pits side B is the same as Pits just with different effects, but someone correct me on that I don't play either of the Pits.

Their Arms (the weapon category name of their side b) are only different by the angle (killing horizontally for Electroshock with a hint of an electricity/paralyze affect and killing vertically for Upperdash), but are overall the exact same thing with the same purpose

He does, but he has Pit's negative traits but amplified. You know that one scene in DBZ where the Ginyu Force are taken out and Goku thinks they've had enough yet Vegeta decides to kill them? Same situation with Pit and Dark Pit. If Palutena tells Pit to get a coffee, he asks "Cream and 2 sugar right?" Dark Pit would go "lol **** off". You can use the extra aggression in Dark Pit for animations and **** too

And that’s really it when it comes to current differences. They fight the same and are both flightless angles on their own, but the personality is what really gets them to be completely different characters
= Cinnamon Roll who worships
= Edgy and with Viridi

I love Dark Pit but isn't he also plays same with Pit in Uprising, too? Yeah, he wants to be his own person but he still has his personality.

And that all he’ll ever get if he wants to be different since he can’t not fight like Pit

Yeah when I tried thinking of a unique moveset for Dark Pit, I gave him the Lightning Chariot cause he uses it in Uprising too lmao

Peach never did that UNTIL now, as seen in her character trailer where she uses it against a Mechakoopa

Well they both used the Lightning Chariot, but only Pit has the ownership...that he somehow lost/forgot about

 

[Nonno Umby]

I think someone pointed this out already but Dr. Mario's pills are used as an example, but don't Dark Pita arrows function differently too? Once again not a Pit player lol.

Besides that though yea this makes it pretty clear. Forgot this video existed lol.

Pit and Dark Pit arrows behave a little differently, so do their Side B, but that's it. Their Up B and Down B are identical, and also their share the same weight, height, speed...

Mario and Doc, on the other hand, have different weights and speeds, and also all their special are different. Mario's Up B is a series of small hits, while Doc's is a single strong punch, good for finishing combos. Their Side B are also different, since Doc can't use that for recovery, since it leave him falling when he uses it. Pills are obviously different from Fireball, and so is FLUDD from Doc Tornado. Also in the mini trailers they shown that Doc has a new aerial attack, which is a spike completely different from Mario's.

That's why Doc isn't an Echo fighter. And as a Doc main I'm really excited that they will finally stop balancing him by just applying to him the changes they do to Mario like they did in Smash For.

 

[Cosmic77]

It doesn't. Rewatch her 20 second trailer and watch Yoshi's smoke trail. He goes up and out like Peach's.

I am curious about what they changed if anything. I'll probably play her no matter what though.

I checked. Doesn't look like it's going downward, but it's definitely not the same angle as Peach's. If anything, it looks close to being horizontal.

And unless I'm looking at it wrong, her u-air has her slashing two rainbows instead of one. That's definitely a change.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Their Arms (the weapon category name of their side b) are only different by the angle (killing horizontally for Electroshock with a hint of an electricity/paralyze affect and killing vertically for Upperdash), but are overall the exact same thing with the same purpose

And that’s really it when it comes to current differences. They fight the same and are both flightless angles on their own, but the personality is what really gets them to be completely different characters
= Cinnamon Roll who worships
= Edgy and with Viridi

And that all he’ll ever get if he wants to be different since he can’t not fight like Pit

Well they both used the Lightning Chariot, but only Pit has the ownership...that he somehow lost/forgot about

Again, there's the arsenal aspect, look at all the **** you can use in Uprising, if Sakurai wanted Pittoo to be unique, he'd have those weapons. It's why I think Dark Pit's got the case of "Could have been more unique"

 

[Murlough]

I checked. Doesn't look like it's going downward, but it's definitely not the same angle as Peach's. If anything, it looks close to being horizontal.

And unless I'm looking at it wrong, her u-air has her slashing two rainbows instead of one. That's definitely a change.

They also could have changed the general angle of the move from 4 to Ultimate. I haven't seen Peach use hers yet so I couldn't say for certain. I don't know Daisy's Upair looks the same to me.

 

[KMDP]

And that all he’ll ever get if he wants to be different since he can’t not fight like Pit

Backing this up. As a magically created copy of Pit, Dark Pit has the same training base as Pit.

To expand on my point about Pit and Dark Pit picking the same weapons, maybe it went like this:
"Hmm... Electroshock or Upperdash? Which should I pick?"
"Personally, I recommend the Upperdash Arm!"
"Yeah! You're right! You're so smart, Lady Palutena."
"Heehee, I try."

And...
"Hmm... Electroshock or Upperdash? Which should I pick?"
Viridi: "Go for Electroshock! It'll really pack a punch!"
"Sure, whatever."
Or maybe Pit would have gone for the Electroshock Arm had Palutena not stepped in.

 

[Deleted member]

Pit and Dark Pit arrows behave a little differently, so do their Side B, but that's it. Their Up B and Down B are identical, and also their share the same weight, height, speed...

Mario and Doc, on the other hand, have different weights and speeds, and also all their special are different. Mario's Up B is a series of small hits, while Doc's is a single strong punch, good for finishing combos. Their Side B are also different, since Doc can't use that for recovery, since it leave him falling when he uses it. Pills are obviously different from Fireball, and so is FLUDD from Doc Tornado. Also in the mini trailers they shown that Doc has a new aerial attack, which is a spike completely different from Mario's.

That's why Doc isn't an Echo fighter. And as a Doc main I'm really excited that they will finally stop balancing him by just applying to him the changes they do to Mario like they did in Smash For.

Well, given that criteria, I'd say that bodes really really well for Ken. Same Hadouken as Ryu, same Down B (different animation?).

Up B is Shoryuken, but it behaves differently and has a fire effect. Rather than hitting once, his hits multiple times.

Side B still Tatsu, but it behaves differently and has a fire effect. Also hits multiple times.

He loses the Hyakuretsu as that's a Ryu only move.

Everything else about him, normals, weight, speed, etc.... are pretty much identical. At best you make some frame data/hitbox adjustments.

FS are different.


Similar with Dark Samus. Everything stays the same, but you change the properties on her charge shot and Screw Attack. Different FS as well maybe.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

I find it funny when I see people say things like "K. Rool is basically a given" because Sakurai is adding the most popular characters, but then say something like "Ashley flat out isn't happening."

It's like people completely ignore that there are other parts of the world where other characters are popular. Yeah, K. Rool is a popular choice, but Ashley is arguably more popular in Japan (AKA where the game is being developed).There are other parts of the world that aren't North America/Europe.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Do you think Echo Fighters will at least get Final Smashes that suit them?

I'd love to see Daisy get something sports related.

Dark Pit obviously can't use the same Final Smash as Pit.

 

[KMDP]

Well, given that criteria, I'd say that bodes really really well for Ken. Same Hadouken as Ryu, same Down B (different animation?).

Up B is Shoryuken, but it behaves differently and has a fire effect. Rather than hitting once, his hits multiple times.

Side B still Tatsu, but it behaves differently and has a fire effect. Also hits multiple times.

He loses the Hyakuretsu as that's a Ryu only move.

Everything else about him, normals, weight, speed, etc.... are pretty much identical. At best you make some frame data/hitbox adjustments.

FS are different.


Similar with Dark Samus. Everything stays the same, but you change the properties on her charge shot and Screw Attack. Different FS as well maybe.

While I'm not too well versed in Street Fighter, I think this is a pretty good summation of what Ken should be in Smash.

 

[RileyXY1]

Do you think Echo Fighters will at least get Final Smashes that suit them?

I'd love to see Daisy get something sports related.

Dark Pit obviously can't use the same Final Smash as Pit.

Dark Pit already has a different Final Smash from Pit in Smash 4, so Echoes can have different Final Smashes from their base character.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Do you think Echo Fighters will at least get Final Smashes that suit them?

I'd love to see Daisy get something sports related.

Dark Pit obviously can't use the same Final Smash as Pit.

Dark Pit having his staff back is confirmed so yeah they will, and if Peach Blossom stays there's no way daisy is using it

 

[osby]

Again, there's the arsenal aspect, look at all the **** you can use in Uprising, if Sakurai wanted Pittoo to be unique, he'd have those weapons. It's why I think Dark Pit's got the case of "Could have been more unique"

I guess there is also time aspect. Dark Pit was added very late in Smash For and now he has to share Sakurai's time with 60+ characters.