Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[monadoboy]

I keep seeing Ken Masters as some sort of Echo clone for Ryu, and while he is the original Echo of fighting games, I wonder why?
Is it because you want Ken as a character deeply? Or is it because it is convenient?

I think it might be a hazzle to give 3rd Parties echoes in general, just because there is lisence issues that needs to be fully figured out, just like a regular 3rd party. Even if it's Shadow, or Ken Masters. They need to pay for their lisence, just to make them the same like a pre-existing character, with new charismatics.

Still, I'm very curious to why Ken Masters. We got Akuma/Gouki, Sakura, Dan Hibiki, Sean Matsuda and many other shotos.
Personally, IF they went through the hazzle, I'd love to see Akuma of the viable options. He makes just as much sense as an echo as Daisy, Lucina and Dark Pit does. (Same with Ken, and Shadow, but Ken is the one in question)

I'd love to hear your views on the matter of Ken Masters.

IF Ryu got an Echo I really hope it's Sakura tbh. Akuma could be cool too, but Ken is a pretty boring choice.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

*Sakurai talks about Echo Fighters.

*Shadow's AT is missing at E3.

*Not only do people automatically assume Shadow is playable, but they chalk him up as an Echo Fighter.


Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow's missing AT is just a coincidence? Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow could get in as a unique character, and that we shouldn't just throw him into the giant pile of potential Echo Fighters we've created following E3?

We're jumping to conclusions, people.

Yeah a unique character probably isn't happening, tails would and should come first.

But I swear the more we talk about echoes the more I dislike the concept, wish they'd just given our current echoes a little decloning rather than restricting them like this tbh.

 

[Metal Shop X]

In most games since Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes, Sonic and Shadow have been pretty different.

Leaving alone that they walk and talk differently (which is obvious even to the most casual observer )...

In Sonic Battle, Sonic is more of a Dance Battler (Sonic like to breakdance, like, a lot), while Shadow is more of a Brawler.

Sonic punches, Shadow chops.
Sonic does a breakdance spin to kick. While Shadow does a back kick.

Spoiler: Example Images

Aren't walking & running animation cosmetic stuff? If yes, no matter if he is a Echo or a clone or even a semi-clone, Shadow & Sonic will be different like in the game.

'just hope he is a bit stronger than Sonic, and that he look cooler in the process, kinda like Dark Pit but even more edgier, ya know?

*Sakurai talks about Echo Fighters.

*Shadow's AT is missing at E3.

*Not only do people automatically assume Shadow is playable, but they chalk him up as an Echo Fighter.


Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow's missing AT is just a coincidence? Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow could get in as a unique character, and that we shouldn't just throw him into the giant pile of potential Echo Fighters we've created following E3?

We're jumping to conclusions, people.

'cant tell for others peoples, but for me, I'm just speculating for fun, I don't think he be 100% in, but if it does, I be happy as long he have enough difference between him and Sonic, Echo or not, animation and gameplay wise.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Shadow being unique or an Echo both work and both could happen. What can also happen is that his AT simply wasn't in the demo. Personally, him being an echo would be the worst as a friend of mine does nothing but spam spindash, which is surprisingly difficult to deal with in 7 player madness, and if we tell him to stop using Sonic he'd just go "Ok, Shadow it is"

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Side note, IF Shadow is an Echo, I wonder if his Spring will uses the gritty palette of brown and sickly green glow that springs had in his game,

 

[splat]

OK super serious question to everyone here but is this source gaming poll only based on 1,000 posts and thus 1,000 people? (Or less since I'm not sure if any of those posts are double posts).

Assuming I'm correct, and let's say its 1,000 individuals, that does not represent the Japanese population that purchased Smash 4.

According to Wikipedia , based off only Smash 3DS sales there were over 2,000,000 purchased. Let's assume everyone who bought voted once (which is fair because people voting for multiple characters can make up for those who didn't vote). 1,000 is only 0.05% of that total. And that's only based on Smash 3DS sales.

Seriously am I missing something here? The work they did at Source Gaming for that poll is cool, but it in no way reflects the ballot results of Japan, it just can't. Super open to being corrected, or better explaining how this process worked. I just see this cited a lot as King K. Rool did well in the Japan ballot, but from how this is presented it looks like King K Rool did well in 0.05% of the ballot.

It's not really about numbers: 1,000 people responding is not as bad as it sounds and is a relatively good sample size. That is, if the respondents are a proper reflection of the audience - which I kind of doubt.

 

[Deleted member]

Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow's missing AT is just a coincidence? Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow could get in as a unique character, and that we shouldn't just throw him into the giant pile of potential Echo Fighters we've created following E3?

We're jumping to conclusions, people.

Occam's Razor. Shadow being an echo fighter takes the least amount of assumptions. The possibillity of him being flat out gone from the game and replaced by Knuckles, or there simply being two Sonic ATs are also possible. But Echo Fighter seems like the most likely scenario.

>Unique character
Lol, not happening.

Just like how we had to learn to deal with the fact the franchise would get rebooted and we'd only have like 12 characters, right? You have no right to yell like you're know for a fact what's going to happen considering that **** you've been pushing constantly about a reboot and minimal roster never happened. I know you can't help but be wrong, when you tried to spoil a rather major Xenoblade X plot twist to whine about "waaaah Nintendo is censoring the video games I hope Treehouse gets fired because of what I expect to happen for the English localization that never actually happened" you didn't even get the plot twist right so stop acting like you actually know what'll happen

I gave two options. Either an enhanced version of the last game where they go all out, and reboot happens next game. Or reboot right now. I don't see how I was wrong on that call tbh. Only pleasantly unexpected part was that the game was in fact geared toward more competitive play, so I can certainly say I'm happy.

And what does XCX have anything to do with anything. I'm not going to go off topic here, but censorship as a result of SJW nonsense infesting video games is a thing. That's as far as I'll go into that topic as it's not relevant to the thread, and I really don't have the desire to delve into that headache again, so idk why you're even bringing it up.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Shadow being unique or an Echo both work and both could happen. What can also happen is that his AT simply wasn't in the demo. Personally, him being an echo would be the worst as a friend of mine does nothing but spam spindash, which is surprisingly difficult to deal with in 7 player madness, and if we tell him to stop using Sonic he'd just go "Ok, Shadow it is"

to be fair though, it's more than his assist simply not being there, it's the fact that we got an entirely new sonic assist in the process, for all we know though they're both in the game as assists

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, see, changing one of his specials like that would make him not an Echo Fighter. As far as we know Echo Fighters to be.

That's up to Sakurai to decide, not any of us. He defines the terms. Dark Pit has a slightly different Side Special, and Daisy has many different animations from Peach. So who knows. Personally, I agree with you, but I also don't set the terms for how different Echo Fighters must be. This is also why I pick Ken over all shoto clones.

 

[Murlough]

Outside of being an Echo Fighter, I don't think Shadow has ANY chance at all of getting in. At best, Sakurai will make him an Echo whete his UpB is a teleport rather than the spring, and that's it.

I would think the same to be fair but when it comes to popularity I would think Knuckles and Shadow are pretty close. So, in theory Shadow could have done fairly well on the ballot like Knuckles. However, for some odd reason Sakurai made Knuckles an AT meanwhile we haven't seen Shadow's yet. This is what makes me think Shadow has a chance in the first place.

On top of that, Shadow has been consistently playing more and more differently than Sonic. If the reason Sakurai chose Shadow was because of the ballot then I think he would go all out to make him play differently from Sonic. If Sakurai just picked Shadow because he's an easy character to make then I think he could end as either a Semi-clone (only changing a few moves) or a full-on Echo. Sakurai continues to exceed expectations and he largely remains faithful to the characters from there home game (minus Ganondorf and maybe one more) so I'm more inclined to believe he would do Shadow justice then say "OK here fanboys you get Dark Sonic. Don't ask me for anything ever again."

To rap this up, you called me out for defending the character because "I don't want him to play like Sonic." But in the post I'm quoting you're doing the exact same thing for the opposite. "I don't think" being the only reason you give. I'm just saying.

I've said this before but I would prefer a character wasn't in at all as opposed to being represented poorly. Do it right or not at all in my opinion. Not that my opinion matters of course.

*Sakurai talks about Echo Fighters.

*Shadow's AT is missing at E3.

*Not only do people automatically assume Shadow is playable, but they chalk him up as an Echo Fighter.


Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow's missing AT is just a coincidence? Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow could get in as a unique character, and that we shouldn't just throw him into the giant pile of potential Echo Fighters we've created following E3?

We're jumping to conclusions, people.

EXACTLY. Wish I could relay what I thought that easily.

 

[KMDP]

Aren't walking & running animation cosmetic stuff? If yes, no matter if he is a Echo or a clone or even a semi-clone, Shadow & Sonic will be different like in the game.

Yeah, walking and running are cosmetic.

'cant tell for others peoples, but for me, I'm just speculating for fun, I don't think he be 100% in, but if it does, I be happy as long he have enough difference between him and Sonic, Echo or not, animation and gameplay wise.

I'm speculating for fun too (when I was a kid I would design Sonic levels with pen and paper, and I still do that kind of thing today when I'm bored.
---
The thing about Shadow is that:

Daisy: Has nothing concrete to pull from for a moveset (yeah, there's spinoff stuff, but everything she does there Peach does too).
Lucina: Pretended to be Marth for years in Awakening. (Leaving alone that Lucina and Chrom have the same fighting style, and Chrom fights more like Ike than Marth).
Dark Pit: Is a literal copy of Pit in EVERY WAY. (Yes, he tries to break away from Pit's mold, but he does it in a "Pit-ty" way)

Shadow is his own unique character, with attacking move animations Sakurai can look to to pull from.

Arguing that Shadow should be a Sonic echo is like arguing that Ganondorf should have remained 100% Falcondorf, in my opinion.
Yeah, the moves make some amount of sense, but they kind of do a disservice to the character.

Shadow is one of the three most popular Sonic characters, along with Sonic himself and Tails.

 

[Cosmic77]

Occam's Razor. Shadow being an echo fighter takes the least amount of assumptions. The possibillity of him being flat out gone from the game and replaced by Knuckles, or there simply being two Sonic ATs are also possible. But Echo Fighter seems like the most likely scenario.

>Unique character
Lol, not happening.

I don't think Shadow is very likely, but even if I did, I wouldn't automatically assume he's an Echo. There's absolutely nothing to indicate he'd be a clone, and the only reason why people think he could be an Echo right now is because Smashboards is desperately searching for any character with similarities to an existing character on Smash's roster.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I know everybody is clamouring for Pokefloats to return in Ultimate, but I hope we actually get a new Pokefloats 2. I want to use Pokemon from across all the gens as platforms. Also if we do get a new Pokefloats, I hope the Pokemon look more like Parade Floats instead of just regular giant pokemon flying in the sky.

If we get a Pokefloats 2, what new Pokemon would you like to see as platforms on the stage?

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

It's not really about numbers: 1,000 people responding is not as bad as it sounds and is a relatively good sample size. That is, if the respondents are a proper reflection of the audience - which I kind of doubt.

But its a super siloed sample size. I mean this, 1,000 responses from Smash boards fans is not equal to 2,000,000 fans that may not be in the speculation scene.

I'd imagine the same would be for those in Japan who post about Smash online and were accounted for, and casual Japanese Smash fans.

Also....I fully admit I'm not a stats expert lol, but I don't see how 1,000 voters would reflect over 2,000,000. (You're right about it not being about numbers, I do just agree that it's probably not an accurate reflective sample).

Eh I just don't really like using these kind of models to predict the ballot results because it probably won't help anyway seeing as we got Bayonetta and she didn't appear at the top of any of those ballot predictions.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

*Sakurai talks about Echo Fighters.

*Shadow's AT is missing at E3.

*Not only do people automatically assume Shadow is playable, but they chalk him up as an Echo Fighter.


Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow's missing AT is just a coincidence? Has anyone considered the possibility that Shadow could get in as a unique character, and that we shouldn't just throw him into the giant pile of potential Echo Fighters we've created following E3?

We're jumping to conclusions, people.

Also, this is jumping to the conclusion that the Shadow assist is gone for good, when there are still 20+ assists we haven't seen. I don't know why everyone here is jumping to the "We haven't seen the assist yet, so they're 100% an echo" train.

OK super serious question to everyone here but is this source gaming poll only based on 1,000 posts and thus 1,000 people? (Or less since I'm not sure if any of those posts are double posts).

Assuming I'm correct, and let's say its 1,000 individuals, that does not represent the Japanese population that purchased Smash 4.

According to Wikipedia , based off only Smash 3DS sales there were over 2,000,000 purchased. Let's assume everyone who bought voted once (which is fair because people voting for multiple characters can make up for those who didn't vote). 1,000 is only 0.05% of that total. And that's only based on Smash 3DS sales.

Seriously am I missing something here? The work they did at Source Gaming for that poll is cool, but it in no way reflects the ballot results of Japan, it just can't. Super open to being corrected, or better explaining how this process worked. I just see this cited a lot as King K. Rool did well in the Japan ballot, but from how this is presented it looks like King K Rool did well in 0.05% of the ballot.

It's really all the data we have based on the ballot.

Here's the thing - the ballot is closed, so we'll never get the info on it. The only thing Nintendo said was that Bayo won in europe so they put her into Smash...which is a little suspicious for the following reasons:

• She was not a name bandied around in speculation much. Even if there was some vast majority of ballot voters who picked her, why were absolutely none of them online talking about it on speculation sites?
• Bayonetta has recently become Nintendo exclusive
• Sakurai talked about how each character could take months and months of work, yet she was finished quite quickly after the ballot - almost as if they'd started her while the ballot was running.

We also don't know how widespread the voting was. We like to think that there are people who don't spend a lot of time on speculation sites, but we don't consider that they might not know about the ballot. Conversely, the people who were 'cheating' the ballot and sending multiple votes were probably mostly on speculation sites.

All we really have to go on is popularity polls from around that time, and yes, that'll never give a true picture of the ballot, but it will give ideas on which way it leaned. From that, we can surmise that those top names were probably leading in Japan, so they are more likely than characters who aren't on that list.

 

[KMDP]

I know everybody is clamouring for Pokefloats to return in Ultimate, but I hope we actually get a new Pokefloats 2. I want to use Pokemon from across all the gens as platforms. Also if we do get a new Pokefloats, I hope the Pokemon look more like Parade Floats instead of just regular giant pokemon flying in the sky.

If we get a Pokefloats 2, what new Pokemon would you like to see as platforms on the stage?

If we get Pokéfloats in any form, I'll repeat my sentiment from yesterday.

This has to be a song for it (remixed or straight up pulled, I don't care )

The bane of every non-paying player of Pokémon Shuffle.

Now, for Pokémon, I'll get back to you on that...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Occam's Razor. Shadow being an echo fighter takes the least amount of assumptions. The possibillity of him being flat out gone from the game and replaced by Knuckles, or there simply being two Sonic ATs are also possible. But Echo Fighter seems like the most likely scenario.

>Unique character
Lol, not happening.


I gave two options. Either an enhanced version of the last game where they go all out, and reboot happens next game. Or reboot right now. I don't see how I was wrong on that call tbh. Only pleasantly unexpected part was that the game was in fact geared toward more competitive play, so I can certainly say I'm happy.

And what does XCX have anything to do with anything. I'm not going to go off topic here, but censorship as a result of SJW nonsense infesting video games is a thing. That's as far as I'll go into that topic as it's not relevant to the thread, and I really don't have the desire to delve into that headache again, so idk why you're even bringing it up.

You were DETERMINED it was a reboot though and that casuals wouldn't care

It's more proof of you claiming **** WILL happen, but that it actually never happened. "Waaaah Nintendo's going to remove any religious themes I just know it fire the Treehouse!" Nintendo didn't actually remove the religious themes "Waaaah why did the do that to the 13 year old's outfit besides she's a [REDACTED]" was something you said before it came out in English, and was actually false information I'll explain in this spoiler tag so XCX spoiler warning for Chapter 5 I wanna say

Spoiler

You claimed Lin was a robot. She's not, nobody's a full on robot, but rather, Mims, which are robotic bodies that resemble humans, but their consciousness is transfered to the Mims to find the biggest bull**** cliffhanger plot twist I've seen

Again, it's not about 'muh sjw', I've had tp deal with enough of that nonsense today, it's just more proof you claim **** will happen, when it actually didn't happen, it's a bad habit, stop it.

That's up to Sakurai to decide, not any of us. He defines the terms. Dark Pit has a slightly different Side Special, and Daisy has many different animations from Peach. So who knows. Personally, I agree with you, but I also don't set the terms for how different Echo Fighters must be. This is also why I pick Ken over all shoto clones.

So Shadow can have a completely different move because Dark Pit has a move that's just the same animation but different looking weapon and some slight changes on knockback? The whole thing with Echoes is that they're incredibly similar, a teleport special attack would no longer have Shadow be like Daisy, Lucina or Dark Pit but rather give him his own identity

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't think Shadow is very likely, but even if I did, I wouldn't automatically assume he's an Echo. There's absolutely nothing to indicate he'd be a clone, and the only reason why people think he could be an Echo right now is because Smashboards is desperately searching for any character with similarities to an existing character on Smash's roster.

I think it's more so that he's similar to sonic, I feel like most have always thought that if shadow somehow got in before tails or knuckles that it'd be because he'd be added as a clone.

 

[Deleted member]

I would think the same to be fair but when it comes to popularity I would think Knuckles and Shadow are pretty close. So, in theory Shadow could have done fairly well on the ballot like Knuckles. However, for some odd reason Sakurai made Knuckles an AT meanwhile we haven't seen Shadow's yet. This is what makes me think Shadow has a chance in the first place.

On top of that, Shadow has been consistently playing more and more differently than Sonic. If the reason Sakurai chose Shadow was because of the ballot then I think he would go all out to make him play differently from Sonic. If Sakurai just picked Shadow because he's an easy character to make then I think he could end as either a Semi-clone (only changing a few moves) or a full-on Echo. Sakurai continues to exceed expectations and he largely remains faithful to the characters from there home game (minus Ganondorf and maybe one more) so I'm more inclined to believe he would do Shadow justice then say "OK here fanboys you get Dark Sonic. Don't ask me for anything ever again."

To rap this up, you called me out for defending the character because "I don't want him to play like Sonic." But in the post I'm quoting you're doing the exact same thing for the opposite. "I don't think" being the only reason you give. I'm just saying.

I've said this before but I would prefer a character wasn't in at all as opposed to being represented poorly. Do it right or not at all in my opinion. Not that my opinion matters of course.


EXACTLY. Wish I could relay what I thought that easily.

He's not being represented poorly at all. His original incarnation makes him a totally viable candidate for an Echo fighter. Just like Ken, who also diversified himself from Ryu with each SF installment to the point of being totally different. However, we know two things: Due to the amount of effort that it takes to readd all the veterans, we're getting VERY FEW original newcomers added to the roster, like 3-4 AT BEST I'm willing to bet tbh. 3 more after Ridley I'd say. Thus, point number 2, echo fighters were distinguished for the sake of having a means to beef up the number of additions to the roster. I'd say 3 more on that end too. Making it a total of 4 Echoes, and 5 newcomers. 9 characters total by December 7, + DLC after. That seems fairly reasonable. That's basically an original character every 2 months, considering they likely only just finished Ridley, Inkling, and polishing all the vets. I mean, Sakurai's statement was right there at the end of the video. 2 months per character is a very reasonable pace if you tally up all the man hours + playtesting, and other stuff going into the game.

As such, with 3 "slots" remaining for original newcomers, I HIGHLY doubt Sakurai is gonna waste them on clone characters, or lesser popular picks. He wants to keep the hype going, so this time around, IMO, he's gonna go for very safe picks overall, that will satisfy the highest number of people. Echo Fighters on the other hand, are there to beef up the roster some more, by adding in other popular picks that can be done with very little overall effort.

So all in all, I'd say people should think very carefully over what the 3 Original Newcomers are gonna be. I have my doubts we'll go beyond that by a lot, and that they'll be picks for "representation" he's gonna go for popularity most of all as that generates hype. Fan favorites. As such, when it comes to echoes, if you look carefully, you can see what sort of options are available. Personally, given the signs, I feel Shadow and Dark Samus are pretty much a given at this point, Dark Samus moreso than Shadow. And Ken is a personal wish, that I think has a very very good chance at happening. But it could really be anything for echoes, from Metal Mario, to Louie, to Funky Kong, to **** knows what else. Ken, Shadow, and Dark Samus are my predictions for Echoes though, because they make the most sense. As for the original newcomers, I'm gonna play it safe and go with popular ballot picks. So in my eyes:

K. Rool
Banjo
Geno
Rayman
Isaac
Simon Belmont

Are the mostly likely candidates for newcomers. Hell, K.Rool is pretty much guaranteed imo. The other two I chose out of personal preference. And then there's also DLC after the game launches too. So we'll see. But stuff like Springman, Rex, Deucideye, Ashley, new FE character, etc... I just flat out don't see happening.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

to be fair though, it's more than his assist simply not being there, it's the fact that we got an entirely new sonic assist in the process, for all we know though they're both in the game as assists

Honestly I expect both Knuckles and Shadow to simply be ATs. No reason Sonic just can't have multiple ATs

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I’m gonna subscribe to the line of thought that Echos will be first party only. Sakurai sees third parties as a big deal and treats them like guests who he rolls out the carpet for. So if Shadow does get in? He’s semi clone at least. Unique at most.

 

[Deleted member]

You were DETERMINED it was a reboot though and that casuals wouldn't care

It's more proof of you claiming **** WILL happen, but that it actually never happened. "Waaaah Nintendo's going to remove any religious themes I just know it fire the Treehouse!" Nintendo didn't actually remove the religious themes "Waaaah why did the do that to the 13 year old's outfit besides she's a [REDACTED]" was something you said before it came out in English, and was actually false information I'll explain in this spoiler tag so XCX spoiler warning for Chapter 5 I wanna say

Spoiler

You claimed Lin was a robot. She's not, nobody's a full on robot, but rather, Mims, which are robotic bodies that resemble humans, but their consciousness is transfered to the Mims to find the biggest bull**** cliffhanger plot twist I've seen

Again, it's not about 'muh sjw', I've had tp deal with enough of that nonsense today, it's just more proof you claim **** will happen, when it actually didn't happen, it's a bad habit, stop it.

So Shadow can have a completely different move because Dark Pit has a move that's just the same animation but different looking weapon and some slight changes on knockback? The whole thing with Echoes is that they're incredibly similar, a teleport special attack would no longer have Shadow be like Daisy, Lucina or Dark Pit but rather give him his own identity

Daisy has her own identity though, lol. Tons of effort was put into her animations to heavily distinguish her from Peach, making her much spunkier. You can see it in the trailer. A lot of her moves have different animations.

I’m gonna subscribe to the line of thought that Echos will be first party only. Sakurai sees third parties as a big deal and treats them like guests who he rolls out the carpet for. So if Shadow does get in? He’s semi clone at least. Unique at most.

Bomberman is an AT. I find it funny when people always speak on behalf of Sakurai as if he were a personal friend of theirs, lol.

 

[Pyra]

Oh, is this a Shadow the Hedgehog argument?
I was always under the assumption that if he made it in he would basically be Sonic's Luigi.

 

[splat]

But its a super siloed sample size. I mean this, 1,000 responses from Smash boards fans is not equal to 2,000,000 fans that may not be in the speculation scene.

I'd imagine the same would be for those in Japan who post about Smash online and were accounted for, and casual Japanese Smash fans.

Absolutely agree, and that was what I was trying to convey in my post, too.

I mean, both polls could be used to get a general impression of the fans' wishes, but nothing more than that. People put too much stock in it and these kind of polls generally only serve as an echo chamber for the 'hardcore' fans.

 

[P.Kat]

Yeah a unique character probably isn't happening, tails would and should come first.

But I swear the more we talk about echoes the more I dislike the concept, wish they'd just given our current echoes a little decloning rather than restricting them like this tbh.

I really hope Shadow does become a unique character despite how less time consuming echoes are to develop than unique characters, I just feel like it'll be a waste of his potential moveset, which is how I feel about Lucina, and Dark Pit. I mean don't get me wrong I'm thankful that they're in the game at all, but at times I really wonder what if they had a more original moveset.

Shadow, and Tails are fine, but what really, really want is Blaze The Cat
All hail Flame Kitty.

 

[Metal Shop X]

Yeah, walking and running are cosmetic.


I'm speculating for fun too (when I was a kid I would design Sonic levels with pen and paper, and I still do that kind of thing today when I'm bored.
---
The thing about Shadow is that:

Daisy: Has nothing concrete to pull from for a moveset (yeah, there's spinoff stuff, but everything she does there Peach does too).
Lucina: Pretended to be Marth for years in Awakening. (Leaving alone that Lucina and Chrom have the same fighting style, and Chrom fights more like Ike than Marth).
Dark Pit: Is a literal copy of Pit in EVERY WAY. (Yes, he tries to break away from Pit's mold, but he does it in a "Pit-ty" way)

Shadow is his own unique character, with attacking move animations Sakurai can look to to pull from.

Arguing that Shadow should be a Sonic echo is like arguing that Ganondorf should have remained 100% Falcondorf, in my opinion.
Yeah, the moves make some amount of sense, but they kind of do a disservice to the character.

Shadow is one of the three most popular Sonic characters, along with Sonic himself and Tails.

Fair enough.

Echo Fighter are kinda of a double-edge sword really, do you want to get a character that look like another character at first glance and thus, be easy to make? At the cost of a unique moveset?

One thing I see peoples having trouble in particular is the following:

-are echo fighter the same as clone? Or are they a sub-category of clone? And in any case, can Echo fighter can become Clone/Semi-Clone?

As of now, some characters still follow others character quit closely (), yet, they aren't considered echo character thanks to their unique moves/attribute that make them play different enough from their original. Echo fighter are easy to make and don't take much time normally, so I figure that, if Sakurai, who up until now, was working on say, Shadow as a Echo fighter, if he happened to look more about Shadow as a character and how he play in his game, if there is enough time and interest, Shadow could easily become a clone (and maybe even a semi-clone if Shadow was that lucky) later in the developpement.

I feel this could apply to any echo characters really, so there is no real way to tell if there be more echo fighter, or more clone characters in the final roster.

So, I say that, peoples should expect some echo fighter and maybe some clone characters.

 

[KMDP]

Daisy has her own identity though, lol. Tons of effort was put into her animations to heavily distinguish her from Peach, making her much spunkier. You can see it in the trailer. A lot of her moves have different animations.

A lot of her moves have different animations, but they are either extremely similar, serve the same purpose, or both.

If Sakurai has give Daisy Zelda's "Farore's Wind", suddenly Daisy would no longer be an Echo Fighter of Peach. She'd be a Semi-Clone of Peach.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

As such, with 3 "slots" remaining for original newcomers, I HIGHLY doubt Sakurai is gonna waste them on clone characters, or lesser popular picks. .

Are you implying that the Echoes tech as much development time as a unique character? Cause it looks like you're saying 1 Echo character means 1 unique character

Daisy has her own identity though, lol. Tons of effort was put into her animations to heavily distinguish her from Peach, making her much spunkier. You can see it in the trailer. A lot of her moves have different animations.



Bomberman is an AT. I find it funny when people always speak on behalf of Sakurai as if he were a personal friend of theirs, lol.

Slightly different animations are something Lucina and Dark Pit also share, look at their taunts. Regardless of Daisy's unique walking animations, it's still the same moves she's using only instead of hearts her attacks have flowers. How is that the same thing as an entirely new attack that Sonic flatout doesn't HAVE, which works completely differently?

 

[Deleted member]

A lot of her moves have different animations, but they are either extremely similar, serve the same purpose, or both.

If Sakurai has give Daisy Zelda's "Farore's Wind", suddenly Daisy would no longer be an Echo Fighter of Peach. She'd be a Semi-Clone of Peach.

I'd say it's up to Sakurai to determine and label those things. Not any of us. Honestly, this gives me flashbacks to all the absurd criteria people would make over what Sakurai used to determine who he felt was worthy of making it into Smash, only to get BTFO when Cloud showed up, lol.

Also, the teleport UpB was just an idea. He could very well just flat out not have it, and have CC be his FS.

Shadow is to Sonic, what Dark Pit is to Pit. Like.... almost literally.

 

[KMDP]

Are you implying that the Echoes tech as much development time as a unique character? Cause it looks like you're saying 1 Echo character means 1 unique character


Slightly different animations are something Lucina and Dark Pit also share, look at their taunts. Regardless of Daisy's unique walking animations, it's still the same moves she's using only instead of hearts her attacks have flowers. How is that the same thing as an entirely new attack that Sonic flatout doesn't HAVE, which works completely differently?

Technically Sonic does have Chaos Control, it's how he survived that exploding escape pod in SA2, and travelled in time in Sonic '06.

Not that Sonic, you know, has a predilection towards using it like Shadow has.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I don't really know how so many people are able to speak definitively about exactly what makes an echo vs. a clone vs. a semi-clone. We've got three echoes, two of which were considered clones in Sm4sh (who did have different hitboxes - Lucy lacked the tipper and was slightly shorter - or moves - Pittoo had a different side special and FS), and now one new one who was not playable in the demo (who is confirmed to have different animations, and may have different effects on attacks - bomber hits down).

So realistically, we have no information other than "echo fighters are a thing and they're a type of clone."

I don't know where people are getting this idea that echoes need to be literally 100% carbon copies of the parent, since that's demonstrably false with the three we have. Those are called alts, do not take a character spot, and are also confirmed (Alph, Koopalings)

Maybe we need to get some more information before we start jumping to conclusions...?

Oh, is this a Shadow the Hedgehog argument?
I was always under the assumption that if he made it in he would basically be Sonic's Luigi.

Tails says hello.

 

[KMDP]

Shadow is to Sonic, what Dark Pit is to Pit. Like.... almost literally.

From a Doylist perspective, yes, you're right. From a Watsonian perspective, Sonic and Shadow are completely separate, unlike Pit and Dark Pit.

 

[Deleted member]

Are you implying that the Echoes tech as much development time as a unique character? Cause it looks like you're saying 1 Echo character means 1 unique character

No, that's actually the exact opposite of what I'm saying in fact. I said:

"2 months per character,"
There are less than 6 months between now and launch. Meaning, I'd say there are about 3 characters left, not counting echoes.

How and why you got that Echoes and Original characters take the same development time from that statement is beyond me. I picked 3 cause it's a nice round number that also lets you have a character reveal each month from now till launch. Echoes take very little development time, so you can easily squeeze one in while working on the other stuff.

Slightly different animations are something Lucina and Dark Pit also share, look at their taunts. Regardless of Daisy's unique walking animations, it's still the same moves she's using only instead of hearts her attacks have flowers. How is that the same thing as an entirely new attack that Sonic flatout doesn't HAVE, which works completely differently?

Daisy's DownB and Uair have different animations from Peach. At least from what I can remember in the trailer. He running animation is different, her taunts, and her idle. She might have more, but I don't feel like checking.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Okay, here's some food for thought: if Marx made it in over Bandana Dee despite not getting as much support, how would you take this?

I'll be honest it would annoy me even though the chance of it happening are miniscule. Having three of the four main characters of recent Kirby games and then a one time boss which happens to be popular would just seem more like the alleged 'Sakurai Bias' more than anything. Yea he came back in Star Allies as DLC but does that compare to Bandana Dee being in the game by default and actually making recent appearances. If Marx makes it in even as an Assist Trophy I would be shocked.

 

[Murlough]

I think it's more so that he's similar to sonic, I feel like most have always thought that if shadow somehow got in before tails or knuckles that it'd be because he'd be added as a clone.

If they literally changed like 5 moves I don't think Sahdow fans would have any reason to complain. Theres a difference between "clone" and "echo" now and many people would appreciate Shadow playing like Shadow.

I'm not really trying to argue anymore I'm just trying to explain my position. Semi-clone is probably perfect for Shadow. Sonic's Backair, Upsmash, Downair (literally Shadow's move) Nair, and Specials work just fine. Though, I would prefer they didn't make another character with two spindashes.....and yeah, give him a teleport recovery. Just port over Mewtwo's and call it chaos control imo.

It really would not be much of a challenge to make Shadow a semi-clone.

(Also, I'm not assuming Shadow will be in at all....I dunno why people keep saying that. Just because we unironically discuss something doesn't mean we

He's not being represented poorly at all. His original incarnation makes him a totally viable candidate for an Echo fighter. Just like Ken, who also diversified himself from Ryu with each SF installment to the point of being totally different. However, we know two things: Due to the amount of effort that it takes to readd all the veterans, we're getting VERY FEW original newcomers added to the roster, like 3-4 AT BEST I'm willing to bet tbh. 3 more after Ridley I'd say. Thus, point number 2, echo fighters were distinguished for the sake of having a means to beef up the number of additions to the roster. I'd say 3 more on that end too. Making it a total of 4 Echoes, and 5 newcomers. 9 characters total by December 7, + DLC after. That seems fairly reasonable. That's basically an original character every 2 months, considering they likely only just finished Ridley, Inkling, and polishing all the vets. I mean, Sakurai's statement was right there at the end of the video. 2 months per character is a very reasonable pace if you tally up all the man hours + playtesting, and other stuff going into the game.

As such, with 3 "slots" remaining for original newcomers, I HIGHLY doubt Sakurai is gonna waste them on clone characters, or lesser popular picks. He wants to keep the hype going, so this time around, IMO, he's gonna go for very safe picks overall, that will satisfy the highest number of people. Echo Fighters on the other hand, are there to beef up the roster some more, by adding in other popular picks that can be done with very little overall effort.

So all in all, I'd say people should think very carefully over what the 3 Original Newcomers are gonna be. I have my doubts we'll go beyond that by a lot, and that they'll be picks for "representation" he's gonna go for popularity most of all as that generates hype. Fan favorites. As such, when it comes to echoes, if you look carefully, you can see what sort of options are available. Personally, given the signs, I feel Shadow and Dark Samus are pretty much a given at this point, Dark Samus moreso than Shadow. And Ken is a personal wish, that I think has a very very good chance at happening. But it could really be anything for echoes, from Metal Mario, to Louie, to Funky Kong, to **** knows what else. Ken, Shadow, and Dark Samus are my predictions for Echoes though, because they make the most sense. As for the original newcomers, I'm gonna play it safe and go with popular ballot picks. So in my eyes:

K. Rool
Banjo
Geno
Rayman
Isaac
Simon Belmont

Are the mostly likely candidates for newcomers. Hell, K.Rool is pretty much guaranteed imo. The other two I chose out of personal preference. And then there's also DLC after the game launches too. So we'll see. But stuff like Springman, Rex, Deucideye, Ashley, new FE character, etc... I just flat out don't see happening.

I'm done with responding to you after this because you called me out for arguing solely because "muh opinion" meanwhile the first entire section is just you arguing because "muh opinion." I don't care how you feel, I care about having a reason to believe something one way or another. You've given me zero reason to change my stance (and I have in the past with others here) other than "muh opinion."

"His original incarnation" is a terrible argument and I've already said why so I'm ignoring it this time. Saying the same thing over and over isn't a tactic that works on me, sorry.

The rest of this is just you making up numbers out of thin air and then using the made up numbers to back your argument and "muh opinions" so....I guess I'm done now.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Bomberman is an AT sure, but that doesn’t change anything Sakurai has said about third parties in the past. Nor is he the first beloved third party who is an assist. Shadow is popular and has been an assist for two games. What matters about both assists is that they feel authentic to the character. If Sakurai was making them playable he’d do the same, not just half ass it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'd say it's up to Sakurai to determine and label those things. Not any of us. Honestly, this gives me flashbacks to all the absurd criteria people would make over what Sakurai used to determine who he felt was worthy of making it into Smash, only to get BTFO when Cloud showed up, lol.

Also, the teleport UpB was just an idea. He could very well just flat out not have it, and have CC be his FS.

Shadow is to Sonic, what Dark Pit is to Pit. Like.... almost literally.

"Well actually, Sakurai's the only one can label these things" Well, actually, Sakurai is also the person who'd decide if Shadow would be an Echo or unique. See what I did? I just used the same argument you did, changed some words around and shockingly enough, it's the same point regardless! :o
I mean, you're kinda doing the same by saying what you think for a fact will actually happen

That's a significantly better argument, congrats. Not even sass, you actually made a decent argument which is a first I've seen tbh

Ok but Dark Pit outright wanted his own identity in Uprising, hating Pit and learning to begrudgingly co-operate because if something happens to Pit, he suffers the same fate. And Shadow's personality while different, doesn't go against the idea of being similar to Sonic so heavily as the character who literally wants their own identity only to do almost exactly the same **** despite claws, cannons, palms, swords, etc being part of his potential arsenal

 

[Guybrush20X6]

WAIT A MINUTE!

Shadow, Ashley, Skull Kid, they all had one thing in common. Weird wobbly surround effects that did status type things.

What if to fit with the faster gameplay (and that they'd be useless if they stand there and could be KO'd), they're being reworked as different AT instead of playable. Not the situation any of us wanted but it could happen.

 

[Pyra]

Tails says hello.

Come on now, I didn't mean his "closest pal" picked over Tails, I meant he'd be a luigified clone of Sonic if for some reason he'd be added.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm done with responding to you after this because you called me out for arguing solely because "muh opinion" meanwhile the first entire section is just you arguing because "muh opinion." I don't care how you feel, I care about having a reason to believe something one way or another. You've given me zero reason to change my stance (and I have in the past with others here) other than "muh opinion."

"His original incarnation" is a terrible argument and I've already said why so I'm ignoring it this time. Saying the same thing over and over isn't a tactic that works on me, sorry.

The rest of this is just you making up numbers out of thin air and then using the made up numbers to back your argument and "muh opinions" so....I guess I'm done now.

A speculation thread is gonna be nothing BUT opinions, lol. It's just a matter of how well you're able to present you're argument. No one here is more right than others until proven right by Sakurai, some are simply just better at presenting arguments, simple as. So feel free to do whatever you like. But losing your cool is no way of convincing people to agree with whatever your opinion might be.