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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Whababa

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In my opinion I think Verge had one valid source when it came to the Ridley and no cuts from Smash Wii U, and that him adding Snake was a lucky guess because otherwise he would have just said no cuts.

I also think that the Simon information was fake as no new Castlevania games were announced as he claimed and we haven't seen anything. I could be completely wrong but I feel like it's a cocktail of truth and bs.
 
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Tree Gelbman

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Is there even a possibility that Konami showed something behind doors?

I don't see why they'd keep a reveal of this nature secret from everyone? There were a lot of huge reveals at E3 but none of them really got lost in the crowd against each other. Especially when the sports game is the only thing I even remember hearing about from Konami at E3.

Top off the fact that Castlevania is a popular Netflix anime. I don't see any reason as to why they'd hide new Castlevania titles like that from the public for so long after E3 instead of hyping them up there.
 

Lyndis_

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Mostly unrelated, but a while back a Pokemon anime animator/TCG illustrator posted this, directly mentioning Smash


Then Vergeben says Minecraft has a presence in Smash Switch and Bewear gets revealed as an Assist Trophy.

It's almost definitely nothing, but an interesting cooincidence nontheless? :laugh:
 
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Tree Gelbman

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I'm just saying if Capcom can reveal DmC5 and the RE2 remake at the same E3 and neither gotten lost or less talked about because of the other.

Konami sure could have used the hype of Castlevania games when all that people seem to have got from them was some sports game for Switch?
 

Onua

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If we're being totally honest about echos. I see a lot of people clamoring over the ideas for echos.
Here are my opinions regarding them.
1. Most of the echos will probably not be revealed. They will most likely be kept a secret till the game comes out to surprise people.
2. A lot of ppl are asking for too many changes from echos such as a new move or whatever. When thinking of an echo lets look at Dark Pit and Lucina. Lucina has the changes in tipper and is 1 pixel shorter or whatever. Nothing else. Dark Pit has only 3 moves that are different (aside from a smaller rapid jab finisher hitbox) so barely anything. So if they are an echo fighter not much will be altered.
3. Some chars simply dont work due to the way the fighter is. Dixie can work but they have to make it so she lacks a rapid jab which is the one move diddy uses his tail in. But even then she isnt all that likely just due to her body and hair.
Anyways I guess Ill talk about who I think has a chance in terms of echo fighter choices. I doubt we will get more than maybe 3 or 4. Anyways...

1. Dark Samus. This seems like the easiest and the lack of a Dark Samus alt might be a hint. We already have a model for her from the wii u and shes popular. She would be the easiest and safest bet to add. We also probs wouldnt get mad at a "dark" alt because we already had Dark Pit to warm us up. Idk what her changes would be but she seems like the most likely choice. Especially with the high demand for more Metroid characters, more villains, more girls, and with Metroid Returns having happened recently and Metroid Prime 4 coming from. Dark Samus is the most likely character to get in as a Echo Fighter.

After this I would't say theyre ordered btw.

2. Octoling. Splatoon is incredibly popular and Octolings share basically the same exact model as inkling aside from a different head. They also again serve as more female and villain representatives. People have been wanting villains for a while and Octolings fit that bill. Very little has to be changed for them to work and it adds another splatoon rep when honestly there really arent many options for another splatoon rep (the sisters are a assist). So theyre a good and safe pick.

3. Medusa. Another female villain. Medusa is also an iconic NES era villain and works as a dark foil to Palutena. Again, basically nothing has to be changed since Palu and Medusa share the same build and staff. Theyre also sisters to them using the same moves doesnt seem weird in any way. Also consider KIU being so popular and it would add another character that would be easy to implement but stand out visually. She has also been seen in several leaks or at least said to be in several leaks so it feels like a safe bet.

4. Ken. Aside from being the ONLY other SF character to get a trophy in smash 4, Ken was BORN as basically an echo fighter of Ryu. Legit just make his SRK a multihit with fire, and his side b be a multihit and bam youre done. Hes a super popular character and is legit the same exact build as Ryu and is only a head swap. He would be super easy to add and considering he was basically an echo of Ryu for years and birthed the whole "clone" thing it makes sense. Also a ton of people love Ken and capcom seems to be buddy buddy with nintendo at this point so its not really asking for too much here.

5. Shadow. Im not exactly fully on board for this one but considering his AT is MIA and sonics very very close relationship with Nintendo now it wouldnt be a stretch. He also wouldnt require any animation changes. Also hes literally just a dark clone of sonic so it makes sense. Im not 100% sure on this one but he seems likely. Hes extremely popular, and heavily requested similar to Daisy. But he isnt really different enough from Sonic to fully justify a new moveset. They also explicitly showed of knuckles. So I can understand and see Shadow having a shot.

6. Raiden/Big Boss/Venom Snake. One of these 3 are possible. I dont think itll happen but Big Boss is EXTREMELY popular and Snake lacks any Big Boss skins. Raiden and Venom also work. Either of these 3 are possibilities but Im not sure about them. Just throwing that its possible.

7. Chrom. Another not too likely choice, but considering hes MIA in everything we've seen from Robin there is the possibility. Especially with his popularity and being so highly requested by people. Chrom might actually get off the floor now. Again I dont see it being all that likely but the possibility is there.

8. Zack Fair. While I HIGHLY doubt this will happen. He is Clouds mentor and they share the same body type (head is different) and same weapon and all around moves so its possible but I doubt it will happen. *shrug*

9. Ms. PacMan. While I think she works better as a skin and shes not really requested. You really cant throw out the possibility I guess.

10. Funky Kong. While not hugely requested, he is relatively popular and would add another DK rep which the series poorly needs. He also shares the exact same build as DK and would be insanely super easy to add. Especially since the model for him already exists and hes relevant enough to be playable in the newest DKC game.

11. Dixie. While possible Im not counting on it due to her lack of tail and hair. But you never know. People want her so maybe. I just dont think its likely due to her body.


I think overall the MOST likely are Dark Samus, Octoling, Medusa, Ken, Big Boss/Raiden/Venom, Chrom, and/or Shadow. Mostly because all these characters by essence are already basically clones of the original in some way or a dark version of an existing character (aside from Chrom)
But these are my thoughts on the possible echo fighters.

Again people NEED to remember an echo fighter only changes barely anything and shares the same basic body type. Very little is changed from the original. We know this just because chars like Pichu, Y.Link, Doc, etc ARENT considered echos.
 

LunarDistortion

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I don't know if I believe Verg or not, but I think he's wrong about Belmont, regardless of whether or not he had real info.

But also, I feel like we're also just arguing in circles now.

New topic:

If Smash had a reboot and was branded as "Biggest gaming icons" (As opposed to just Nintendo Icons) with a roster size of 25 characters or less, who would you choose to be fighters?
In all honesty the characters that immediately pop in my head are these guys.

-Master Chief
-Quote from Cave Story
-Spyro
 

Captain Fun

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I brought up the possibility that Vergeben's rumors of Simon and a new Casltevania game could be piggybacking as those didn't originate from him (although they didn't gain any traction until he reported on them).

But he was very adamant about Ridley, Snake, and the Ice Climbers, and he seemingly got that J-Stars thing right. If Simon actually is in the game I'll give him credit where it's due.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Just a note about Dixie; they have to animate her hair for various stuff, so she takes a lot of work to make an echo, even with Diddy having no tail attacks. It might make more sense to make her a clone or semi-clone instead.

Medusa probably wouldn't be an echo, as her stone gaze is too iconic to ignore outright. Her moves also don't fit Palutena's well at all, though that's a lesser issue. She probably would work better as a clone/semi-clone at that point. The other echoes still kept the character intact overall. The thing about Medusa's stone gaze is that it alone would be mediocre as a Final Smash, but more importantly, she has a lot of actual unique abilities that wouldn't translate well at all as an echo.

Medusa and Dixie probably won't be echos due to this. Funky actually could happen, with his board as part of his idle/taunts/final smash. But he also doesn't translate well animation-wise for attacks, due to his actual posture being very different from Donkey Kong.
 

?????????????

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New topic:

If Smash had a reboot and was branded as "Biggest gaming icons" (As opposed to just Nintendo Icons) with a roster size of 25 characters or less, who would you choose to be fighters?
1.) Mario
2.) Luigi
3.) Peach
4.) Bowser
5.) Yoshi
6.) Wario
7.) Donkey Kong
8.) Diddy Kong
9.) Lucina
10.) Pit
11.) Link
12.) Zelda
13.) Ganondorf
14.) Samus
15.) Fox
16.) Kirby
17.) King Dedede
18.) Meta Knight
19.) Olimar
20.) Villager
21.) Pikachu
22.) Mewtwo
23.) Shulk
24.) Inkling
25.) Sonic

EDIT: Nevermind, I misread the question. I'll maybe do a real answer later.
 
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papagenos

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Is there even a possibility that Konami showed something behind doors?

I don't see why they'd keep a reveal of this nature secret from everyone? There were a lot of huge reveals at E3 but none of them really got lost in the crowd against each other. Especially when the sports game is the only thing I even remember hearing about from Konami at E3.

Top off the fact that Castlevania is a popular Netflix anime. I don't see any reason as to why they'd hide new Castlevania titles like that from the public for so long after E3 instead of hyping them up there.

A french gaming news source said konami was revealing something behind closed doors and apparently there were whispers of this around E3.

Konami said having the netflix series launch but not along side a castlevania title was a mistake.

the logic would be they are saving the reveal to launch with season 2 of the netflix series perhaps?
 

Onua

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Just a note about Dixie; they have to animate her hair for various stuff, so she takes a lot of work to make an echo, even with Diddy having no tail attacks. It might make more sense to make her a clone or semi-clone instead.

Medusa probably wouldn't be an echo, as her stone gaze is too iconic to ignore outright. Her moves also don't fit Palutena's well at all, though that's a lesser issue. She probably would work better as a clone/semi-clone at that point. The other echoes still kept the character intact overall. The thing about Medusa's stone gaze is that it alone would be mediocre as a Final Smash, but more importantly, she has a lot of actual unique abilities that wouldn't translate well at all as an echo.

Medusa and Dixie probably won't be echos due to this. Funky actually could happen, with his board as part of his idle/taunts/final smash. But he also doesn't translate well animation-wise for attacks, due to his actual posture being very different from Donkey Kong.
The thing about Medusa is you could just make her auto reticle have a different visual effect and it stuns the opponent. It works as the stone gaze. Her frame is the same as palu and she also has a staff. If you alter the effects from light to dark on palus moves it works as well.
 

BluePikmin11

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Even without Vergeben, I think Simon is very likely to happen due to the current circumstances:

-Snake being playable, with Konami being open to having their characters in Smash Ultimate now.
-Sakurai stating that Castlevania was an impactful franchise for him personally in a Sakurai x Nomura interview in 2016.
-Bomberman being out of the running with him being an assist trophy.

I am pretty confident that he is in at this point.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The thing about Medusa is you could just make her auto reticle have a different visual effect and it stuns the opponent. It works as the stone gaze. Her frame is the same as palu and she also has a staff. If you alter the effects from light to dark on palus moves it works as well.
Fair point.

What about her laser eye attacks? That's something she also does. Where'd that fit in?

I stand on the Dixie thing though. She needs too many animations to be feasible as an echo. I'm guessing you agree on that?
 

RileyXY1

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A french gaming news source said konami was revealing something behind closed doors and apparently there were whispers of this around E3.

Konami said having the netflix series launch but not along side a castlevania title was a mistake.

the logic would be they are saving the reveal to launch with season 2 of the netflix series perhaps?
I don't think that they would withhold information like that from the public.
 

Tree Gelbman

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the logic would be they are saving the reveal to launch with season 2 of the netflix series perhaps?
Which Netflix hasn't even given a date from what I see?

So I doubt they'd be saving it for a reveal alongside Season 2's premiere.
 

?????????????

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Regardless of likeliness, Simon is one of my most wanted newcomers.

I think my Top 5 right now are K. Rool, Simon, Rayman, Elma, and Spring Man.
 
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Whababa

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9. Ms. PacMan. While I think she works better as a skin and shes not really requested. You really cant throw out the possibility I guess.
I dont think Ms. Pacman is reasonable as I recall her and her game being made by three MIT students who then had a deal with Namco and Midway. This article expains it pretty well with this direct quote saying: "Macrae: Who owns the rights to Ms. Pac-Man is a very, very complicated issue. Ms. Pac-Man was originally created as a derivative work on Pac-Man. The whole concept of derivative works I don’t think was ever heavily fleshed out in intellectual property law." Im not doubting Sakurai's abilities but it seems like quite the hassle for an alt.
 

Onua

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Fair point.

What about her laser eye attacks? That's something she also does. Where'd that fit in?

I stand on the Dixie thing though. She needs too many animations to be feasible as an echo. I'm guessing you agree on that?
Her laser eye could work as a final smash functioning the same as a mix of ZSS and bowser like i said in my mock up for her kit.
Im going off the idea they change NO animations for her attacks.
Her head could also change into her monster head during neutral b while she still does the same pose with the staff but the hitbox and function are different.
While yes her eye attacks are iconic, Dark pits staff is as well but its only used for his FS. Medusas neutral B and final smash could incorporate her head swap easily without altering any animations attack wise. Also you could possibly have her eyes become monsterous red/yellow during some strong attacks.

Dixie doesnt work as an echo yes.
 

N3ON

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Is there even a possibility that Konami showed something behind doors?

I don't see why they'd keep a reveal of this nature secret from everyone? There were a lot of huge reveals at E3 but none of them really got lost in the crowd against each other. Especially when the sports game is the only thing I even remember hearing about from Konami at E3.

Top off the fact that Castlevania is a popular Netflix anime. I don't see any reason as to why they'd hide new Castlevania titles like that from the public for so long after E3 instead of hyping them up there.
They did.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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If we get a new 3rd party character I think it will be from a company already involved with Smash. Working with all those companies is difficult enough, I'd be surprised if Sakurai went out of his way to work with yet another company (for the base game at least).

I think Simon is the best choice, and the fact that we have Snake playable and Bomberman as an assist trophy gives me hope for some Castlvania content.
 
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papagenos

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Which Netflix hasn't even given a date from what I see?

So I doubt they'd be saving it for a reveal alongside Season 2's premiere.
I really dont know im just saying thats the train of thought on why they had a closed door reveal for something.

simon i still think is super likely without verge (though if hes in then i imagine verge was real so its kind of a chicken and egg situation here)
 

papagenos

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What if...


oooo i like this a little too much with it fitting waluigis personality to trick us.

I dont know if i can subscribe to it but i like it.

were any other shown assist trophys NOT in the demo... if the answer is no than i say this might hold ground.
 

T-Hell

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Best stance seems to be keep it in mind, but don't treat it as gospel.

If we get the more risky aspects confirmed, i.e. either Simon or Minecraft, then it's probably safe to buy in.
So Ridley, Snake and no cuts weren't risky aspects? lol.

oooo i like this a little too much with it fitting waluigis personality to trick us.

I dont know if i can subscribe to it but i like it.

were any other shown assist trophys NOT in the demo... if the answer is no than i say this might hold ground.
Please this is Ridley's shadow all over again. Don't.
 
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Onua

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But going off my ideas for echos I do wonder what would change. Aside from animations, taunts, etc. But I mean move functions so I guess Ill pick the characters I feel are most likely and assume whats different?

Dark Samus - I think maybe her beam related moves would be different. That being moves that actually use her canon? Like Fsmash, Upsmash, Fair, Side B, Neutral B, Dtilt might all have a different effecet maybe. Maybe side is the freeze beam, and her neutral b stuns like dragon fang. While her other moves just have different KB maybe.

Medusa - Ive already gone in on this one before, but neutral b would stun the opponent rather than fire several shots. Bair and DA would lack intangibilty but hit harder like ganon Bair or cloud DA.

Ken - Side b be a multihit and go further. SRK go further both vertically and horizontally while having a multihit and fire effects. Maybe make hadouken worse to match how he is in SF. Only problem is down b since in SF Ken kicks instead of punchs for his Focus attack. *shrug*

Octoling - Idk lol. Ive never played splatoon

Funky - Again not really sure.

Big Boss/Raiden/Venom - Not sure honestly.

Chrom - I have no idea honestly. He probs be an echo of Ike

Shadow - *shrug*
 
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Nani?

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But going off my ideas for echos I do wonder what would change. Aside from animations, taunts, etc. But I mean move functions so I guess Ill pick the characters I feel are most likely and assume whats different?

Dark Samus - I think maybe her beam related moves would be different. That being moves that actually use her canon? Like Fsmash, Upsmash, Fair, Side B, Neutral B, Dtilt might all have a different effecet maybe. Maybe side is the freeze beam, and her neutral b stuns like dragon fang. While her other moves just have different KB maybe.

Medusa - Ive already gone in on this one before, but neutral b would stun the opponent rather than fire several shots. Bair and DA would lack intangibilty but hit harder like ganon Bair or cloud DA.

Ken - Side b be a multihit and go further. SRK go further both vertically and horizontally while having a multihit and fire effects. Maybe make hadouken worse to match how he is in SF. Only problem is down b since in SF Ken kicks instead of punchs for his Focus attack. *shrug*

Octoling - Idk lol. Ive never played splatoon

Funky - Again not really sure.

Big Boss/Raiden/Venom - Not sure honestly.

Chrom - I have no idea honestly. He probs be an echo of Ike
As much as I want Funky in Smash, I think his funkiness would break the game.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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But going off my ideas for echos I do wonder what would change. Aside from animations, taunts, etc. But I mean move functions so I guess Ill pick the characters I feel are most likely and assume whats different?

Dark Samus - I think maybe her beam related moves would be different. That being moves that actually use her canon? Like Fsmash, Upsmash, Fair, Side B, Neutral B, Dtilt might all have a different effecet maybe. Maybe side is the freeze beam, and her neutral b stuns like dragon fang. While her other moves just have different KB maybe.

Medusa - Ive already gone in on this one before, but neutral b would stun the opponent rather than fire several shots. Bair and DA would lack intangibilty but hit harder like ganon Bair or cloud DA.

Ken - Side b be a multihit and go further. SRK go further both vertically and horizontally while having a multihit and fire effects. Maybe make hadouken worse to match how he is in SF. Only problem is down b since in SF Ken kicks instead of punchs for his Focus attack. *shrug*

Octoling - Idk lol. Ive never played splatoon

Funky - Again not really sure.

Big Boss/Raiden/Venom - Not sure honestly.

Chrom - I have no idea honestly. He probs be an echo of Ike
I hear Chrom can use electricity, so...

As for Shadow, who would fit easily, just Chaos Aesthetics, kind of like what they did with Ganondorf as darkness moves, plus some properties of the moves changed.
 

Nekoo

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Why are people surprised that things get revealed behind closed door?
A lot of FFVII Remake stuff was shown back in January behind closed door, and even apparently the new Cloud Redesign that changed since the game announcement- yet nothing leaked

KH also had tons of stuff shown behind closed door-
And MGS V also had stuff showed behind closed door I think before it got from Phantom Pain to Metal Gear Solid V puting journalist under embargo.

Most of the time, it's because the developper show something that isn't polished or ready enough to be public, but enough to let Journalist write article, impression and preview about the games.

Oh- and ****ING PAC-MAN was showed behind closed door for Smash4-
 

Onua

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I hear Chrom can use electricity, so...

As for Shadow, who would fit easily, just Chaos Aesthetics, kind of like what they did with Ganondorf as darkness moves, plus some properties of the moves changed.
That could work. Im not a big sonic fan so I really dont know what is different involving shadow but my friend seems to think shadow is very likely.
 

Tree Gelbman

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I'm 80 percent sure we're getting a Mario newcomer who isn't an echo fighter.

But it's going to be Geno.

Captain Toad could usurp him, but I believe Sakurai is going to go with Geno for the long time fan want.

The thing that makes me put faith in Geno over Captain Toad is that I feel as if Toad's increased role in Peach and Daisy's movesets was done to appease us Toad fans as a ''for now" situation. He now isn't a meat shield. He's essentially saying ''Come at me, Bro." to characters now.

Now Captain Toad could still happen and he'd not require any changes to Peach or Daisy because of being a different named member of the species.

Waluigi however? Writing him off completely is your best bet. They're not going to trick people like that and this is just the new Ridley situation for Smash Ultimate.
 

N3ON

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So Ridley, Snake and no cuts weren't risky aspects? lol.
For Ryce and Jonneh and Emily who first "broke" the story and unintentionally brought them to the forefront (and even memoryman, who spread them). Not for Vergeben, who ****s out seemingly all that comes his way.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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That could work. Im not a big sonic fan so I really dont know what is different involving shadow but my friend seems to think shadow is very likely.
Shadow has been a straight clone in many Sonic games. He can do everything Sonic can do in Smash, though he does often use varied animations for some attacks, like his punches or more often karate chops. His design is basically Super Sonic recolored, but that's for in-game reasons too(he was based upon the mural of Super Sonic, which also explains why he was created to be a very strong character respectively).

He could work just as well as a clone, semi-clone, or unique too. Though mostly the former two.
 
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