Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Tree Gelbman]

Yeah. Decidueye's popularity is overstated. He's cool and all, but a lot of his popularity is people rounding up from how TRULY popular Rowlet is/was.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I found Isabelle and Ashley's absence in the demo pretty notable. It makes me optimistic for them both because I remember the SSB4 invitational back in 2014 and how they were constantly summoned during matches. I also wouldn't be surprised if Skull Kid is now part of Young Link's final smash.

 

[Shroob]

Mimikyu isn't even Pikachu.

It's an eldritch abomination in a rag.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think some people are failing to recognize some things about Echo Fighters. Especially in regards to newfound support for characters.

These proposed Echo Fighters will have the exact same moveset as the character they are echoing, with a simple aesthetic change.

No Chaos Control for Shadow.

No three homing energy balls, or energy roots coming up from the ground for Dark Samus.

These Echo Fighter characters won’t have unique movesets, or even unique moves.

That’s the difference between Echo Fighters and Clones. Echo Fighters are a glorified alt costume, and Clones are a base with the potential for a few changes for moveset potential.

That's basically my thoughts on the matter.

They're basically are the same as 'Ninten should be an echo fighter'. They're both absurd, and wouldn't suit being an echo fighter since they have games (or game in Ninten's case) that Sakurai could pull from to make them unique and not a full clone.

 

[AquaSol]

Hey guys. I'm new here, although I've been lurking since the Ultimate trailer was released. There's been some pretty interesting discussion so far, and there's probably going to be some interesting pre-release hype. Just for fun, I'm gonna list my most wanted and then who I think is happening, since it seems like most people have done that already.

Wants: King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Elma, Isaac, Skull Kid, Ray MK III, Dillon. Wanted Takamaru and Midna w/ Wolf Link, but oh well lol.
Predictions: King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Elma, Mimikyu/Decidueye, Chorus Kids. Not sure about the echoes, but those are my unique newcomer predictions.

King K. Rool seems extremely popular. I feel that if Sakurai decides to add him, he'll add Dixie Kong as well (maybe as a clone/echo). She has fans and would be a noticeable exclusion. I think it's too late for Rex/Pyra, and Elma seems like a popular choice. I still think Pokémon's getting something despite having all those characters. I prefer Mimikyu because I feel like Disguise would be an interesting gimmick. I'm sure the Chorus Kids are happening. Sakurai probably told the Rhythm Heaven developers of their intended inclusion when the early roster was drafted. It would be a slap in the face to them if he said he'd add them, then took them out, then excluded them again in a new installment that isn't bogged by technical issues.

Looking forward to the game's release and the discussions about it!

 

[RandomAce]

My reasoning for the strong possibility of Decidueye is that the game started development in early 2016 and rosters are one of the first things Sakurai knocks out before he starts actual programming. That said, it was probably another Lucario/Greninja situation where he was given concept art for a Pokemon and told to make a fighter based on that. Further more, concept art of the three final evolutions of the Alolan starters were leaked in April of that year so it's likely Sakurai had access to those documents too.

By this reasoning, he probably chose one of the three final Alolan starters: Decidueye, Inceniroar, or Primarina. If this is the case, I doubt Primarina because there was already two water types and I doubt Inceniroar because we already have a fully evolved fire starter. That leaves Decidueye who is significantly different from Ivysaur and already demonstrated as a fighter in Pokken. It's not a guarantee but it seems like a natural fit.

Well, having all of the fighter return was the first thing they did, so Pokemon Trainer probably was the first thing that came to Sakurai’s mind.

Decidueye has enough to stand on it’s own, but I can see a lot of people stop supporting or suspecting him because being a grass starter was one of the main reasons why they pushed Decidueye (and Ivy is back so...).

Tbh, we really don’t know how Sakurai selected the Pokémon for this game, if he even picked one at all. We don’t know which Pokémon he was sent concept art of or who he picked.

 

[Ultinarok]

Look up the official Japanese gen 7 Pokemon popularity list. Decidueye isn't even on it. He might be top 10 in America but I haven't found anything official on that.

I honestly don't want him because he was in Pokken (If Mimikyu didn't exist I'd probably be rooting for either him or Incineroar, to be fair). It's a stupid reason but I'd feel cheated. Lycanroc I would at least be like "oh well thats fair I guess, he could use something." I don't expect Rowlet personally. Zeroara....just hasn't earned a spot in my opinion. I legitimately would prefer Decidueye over the yellow Lucario. I don't think I'll complain at all if Incineroar is in.

Its really more that Decidueye is fully evolved Rowlet. And Rowlet is really popular is he not? I never split hairs when it comes to pokemon evolutions. Decidueye is the final form of Rowlet, so they're basically the same pokemon family, and everyone that picked Rowlet as a starter ended up with Decidueye unless they cancelled their evolutions for some reason. If Rowlet is super popular, Decidueye is kinda popular by default since thats what Rowlet becomes. I suppose Pikachu and Jiggs don't work that way, but they got famous for the anime. Rowlet was famous the moment he was revealed in the games. And in the games, everyone's favorite gen 7 mon becomes Decidueye. Does this logic make sense to everyone the way it does to me?

You could argue that they could just include Rowlet, but his final form has much much more to work with and still represents Rowlets evolutionary family. It doesn't seem to matter all that much if Decidueye is not on the list; Rowlet is, and that means his evolutionary family remains the most popular Gen 7 starter. I personally prefer Primarina, but I can see why people would vouch for the owl.

 

[?????????????]

If the next trailer really features Simon Belmont saving Samus from Ridley, I’ll put this leak into more serious consideration.

...It sounds cool.

 

[Arcanir]

My reasoning for the strong possibility of Decidueye is that the game started development in early 2016 and rosters are one of the first things Sakurai knocks out before he starts actual programming. That said, it was probably another Lucario/Greninja situation where he was given concept art for a Pokemon and told to make a fighter based on that. Further more, concept art of the three final evolutions of the Alolan starters were leaked in April of that year so it's likely Sakurai had access to those documents too.

By this reasoning, he probably chose one of the three final Alolan starters: Decidueye, Inceniroar, or Primarina. If this is the case, I doubt Primarina because there was already two water types and I doubt Inceniroar because we already have a fully evolved fire starter. That leaves Decidueye who is significantly different from Ivysaur and already demonstrated as a fighter in Pokken. It's not a guarantee but it seems like a natural fit.

I don't see how Charizard being a fully evolved fire starter disqualifies Incineroar. They may share a typing, but Incineroar would not play the same as Charizard at all as the former is a heel wrestler that focuses on grappling and other styles associated with that sport while the latter is a bipedal dragon and pretty much fights like one. Hell, they don't even use Flamethrower the same as Incineroar uses his belt while Charizard uses his mouth, so even when simplifying their similarities they still have a number of differences between each other.

I would personally prefer Decidueye myself, but I don't think you're being fair to Incineroar here. The overlaps shouldn't matter that much when it's basically just equating them to the barest of similarities, Incineroar would be a very unique character, don't let the Fire type fool you.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Shadow's possibility of being an echo character is interesting. I wonder if Sakurai would be up to the idea of a 3rd party character being an echo, especially since 3rd party characters have always been a bit of a big deal.

As a general question, how likely do you think it would be for Dixie to be an echo character, and how likely do you think it would be that she got a little extra time to become a semiclone?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

That's basically my thoughts on the matter.

They're basically are the same as 'Ninten should be an echo fighter'. They're both absurd, and wouldn't suit being an echo fighter since they have games (or game in Ninten's case) that Sakurai could pull from to make them unique and not a full clone.

While they could be unique, there's no real reason to add ninten as a unique fighter now, adding them as an echo fighter would be their best bet to make it in, it's either that or nothing. While the same would apply to Dark Samus I'm against that because Samus' moveset simply wouldn't fit Dark Samus

 

[?????????????]

As a general question, how likely do you think it would be for Dixie to be an echo character, and how likely do you think it would be that she got a little extra time to become a semiclone?

I think she’s gotta be a semiclone (at least). Just even being an “echo” with an alternative Up B for Helicopter Hair feels like a necessity for her character.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

OK OK OK hear me out:

Tharja as an echo for Robin.

Robin already has Nosferatu. Change some of the attacks to be more dark-oriented and maybe do something with the sword to make it more in-character for Tharja (dark-focused energy blade?) and you'd have a pretty solid echo.

Then again I doubt they'd even consider her since she couldn't even get a trophy for Smash 4...

 

[Slavic]

That's basically my thoughts on the matter.

They're basically are the same as 'Ninten should be an echo fighter'. They're both absurd, and wouldn't suit being an echo fighter since they have games (or game in Ninten's case) that Sakurai could pull from to make them unique and not a full clone.

This is one where I will have to disagree because Ninten’s PSI list is very very similar to Lucas’, more so than Ness to Lucas (not that it matters with how the Mother series is handled in Smash). Ninten has a few things like Hypnosis and Defense Down, I guess, but more so than Dark Samus or Shadow does he work as an Echo imo. Idk, that’s my take on it, but I don’t think Ninten would suddenly gain a game-accurate moveset after a streak of Ness and Lucas.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Shadow's possibility of being an echo character is interesting. I wonder if Sakurai would be up to the idea of a 3rd party character being an echo, especially since 3rd party characters have always been a bit of a big deal.

As a general question, how likely do you think it would be for Dixie to be an echo character, and how likely do you think it would be that she got a little extra time to become a semiclone?

I have faith in Sakurai that he wouldn't do that to her, she's more than worthy enough, popular enough and has more than enough potential to be a unique character but I'm also extremely worried they'll say **** it and do it and Dixie will be stuck as diddy with a ponytail that she doesn't even use for the rest of her life as a smash character. I'd rather Dixie not be in at all than have her as a 1 to 1 diddy clone.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/420503887

Spoiler: Leak Information

"Reveal 1: Picks up immediately where the last one completes. Samus divekicks towards Ridley but he grabs her and slams her against the ground. He drops her and prepares to impale her with his claw, but it's stopped by a whip. Reveal Simon. Tagline is, "Simon Belmont whips up a storm!"

Reveal 2: Pikachu fights other characters on a stage (I think it's the new Pokemon Stadium). Reveal Mimikyu hiding behind some stage terrain, watching the battle. He hears everyone cheering for Pikachu as it defeats its opponents. Pikachu walks by Mimikyu's hiding spot, he pulls him into the darkness, you hear some cartoon fighting, and then Mimikyu pops out. Reveal is first, "Pikachu shocks the competition!" before the music stops and "Mimikyu scares up some fun!" is slapped over it.

Reveal 3: I don't know much about how this one works out other than that my friend said that it features Ashley and Shadow, seemingly as friends. Comedic one that plays on them both being kind of dark and brooding.

Reveal 4: King K. Rool beating up DK, Diddy, and Ness. Funky Kong bi-plane fires at him, then Funky Kong surfs into battle and stands alongside his pals. Something along the lines of, "Funky Kong makes some waves!"

Reveal 5: This one starts with footage from the Smash Bros Ultimate reveal where they kill Waluigi. We instead follow him down the abyss until he lands unceremoniously in mud. Long story short, he tries to get back into Smash by writing his name down as Geno. He finally appears, dressed haphazardly as Geno, in a Forest Maze-esque stage where he surprises Luigi, Pikachu, and Villager by popping out along with the tagline, "Geno strings up his foes!" The real Geno appears and immediately defeats him, and once again the tagline appears. Waluigi sulks in the dirt, until Luigi pulls him up, dusts him off. Tagline finally says, "Waluigi inches over the finish line!"

Very interesting leak. I like the idea of a sequential story for newcomer trailers.

Another anon may have said this, but on the thread it also says:

Spoiler: Leak Spoilers

Dillon, Raichu, Phoenix Wright, and Dark Samus are also in the game, but will be revealed on the Dojo after release, and thus won't receive reveal trailers.

 

[Autumn ♫]

OK OK OK hear me out:

Tharja as an echo for Robin.

Robin already has Nosferatu. Change some of the attacks to be more dark-oriented and maybe do something with the sword to make it more in-character for Tharja (dark-focused energy blade?) and you'd have a pretty solid echo.

Then again I doubt they'd even consider her since she couldn't even get a trophy for Smash 4...

It's possible, but I don't really see why we would get Tharja when Chrom still exist.

I think she’s gotta be a semiclone (at least). Just even being an “echo” with an alternative Up B for Helicopter Hair feels like a necessity for her character.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. Her hair is a big part of her character, so it'd be odd not using it. I do wonder if we'll see any semiclones this go around though.

 

[monadoboy]

OK OK OK hear me out:

Tharja as an echo for Robin.

Robin already has Nosferatu. Change some of the attacks to be more dark-oriented and maybe do something with the sword to make it more in-character for Tharja (dark-focused energy blade?) and you'd have a pretty solid echo.

Then again I doubt they'd even consider her since she couldn't even get a trophy for Smash 4...

Since "too big" is dead, maybe "too sexy" can take it's place.

 

[?????????????]

Honestly..........

I can’t see Ninten as anything but an echo. He and Ness are so absurdly similar, it’s not even funny. You could stretch him to semiclone, but...

I just don’t think it would be...worth it? At the very least, his FS could feature Ana and Loid.

 

[Blargg888]

Since Ivysaur is in again.

Do we still need that precious grass starter rep?

Because that was half the reasoning I saw given for Decidueye.

I can also see this being why the Gen 7 rep if there is one will be Mimikyu.

It also gives Sakurai the chance to have three ''Pikachus" as well.

We never "needed" a grass starter. Kind of like how we don't actually "need" a new Pokemon character at all.

There's more to Decidueye than half of its typing, and the return of Ivysaur, as godly as Ivysaur is, is not going to stop people from wanting it in the game.

When it comes down to it, Decidueye, Lycanroc, and Mimikyu are all Pokemon people really want, but we don't actually need any of them.

 

[Deleted member]

for Dark Samus, it’s because Samus lost her Dark Samus alt color, despite nearly every other Smash 4 character having all their old colors. In fact, I don’t think there’s a single Smash 4 vet that is missing a color, as long as they didn’t get a new alt or a drastic redesign. Which Samus got neither, so, like DK, Mewtwo and Ness, should have all their Smash 4 alts. But she doesn’t. Kind of like how Pit’s black alt was changed in Smash 4 to not look like Dark Pit.

Funny how you brought up Pit, because one of his palettes got replaced from Smash 4 to Ultimate based on the Demo and the black color has black wings again despite Dark Pit being in the game.

 

[TumblrFamous]

If the next trailer really features Simon Belmont saving Samus from Ridley, I’ll put this leak into more serious consideration.

...It sounds cool.

How dare you assume Samus needs saving.

What we really need is Mother Brain, Pit, Mega Man and Simon all together for a Captain N: The Game Master reunion.

 

[Captain Fun]

Since "too big" is dead, maybe "too sexy" can take it's place.

Given that her trophy was cut from Smash 3DS, her outfit might be an actual problem...

Spoiler

RIP Pyra in that case.

 

[Deleted member]

We never "needed" a grass starter. Kind of like how we don't actually "need" a new Pokemon character at all.

There's more to Decidueye than half of its typing, and the return of Ivysaur, as godly as Ivysaur is, is not going to stop people from wanting it in the game.

When it comes down to it, Decidueye, Lycanroc, and Mimikyu are all Pokemon people really want, but we don't actually need any of them.

The BIGGEST reason Decidueye even got the support base it did in the first place was due to the Grass Starter status.
That CANNOT be denied.

 

[Murlough]

I keep seeing this argument of "Mimikyu can't be in because that would be 3 Pikachus", but isn't that kind of ridiculous considering we now have 3 Links? Especially when you realize Mimikyu would only kind of look like Pikachu and that's it, moveset-wise they'd have nothing in common.

The only argument against Mimikyu that kind of defeated me were people saying that it would just be easier to make into a pokeball 'mon.

VERY happy to have not seen it so far.

1. Moveset argument was/is friggin' terrible.
2. "Just another Pikachu clone" is a meme/trash tier argument, sorry if someone actually thinks that.
3. "Better reps" fair enough. Opinions are opinions are opinions.
4. Some people have actually said Mimikyu isn't popular enough and I'm just like like "okie dokie, then." This silver medal in popularity from Japan begs to differ.

I'm sure there are a few more but I can't remember any of them. None actually felt like a threat to Mimikyu's inclusion other than the pokeball one, anyway.

Its really more that Decidueye is fully evolved Rowlet. And Rowlet is really popular is he not? I never split hairs when it comes to pokemon evolutions. Decidueye is the final form of Rowlet, so they're basically the same pokemon family, and everyone that picked Rowlet as a starter ended up with Decidueye unless they cancelled their evolutions for some reason. If Rowlet is super popular, Decidueye is kinda popular by default since thats what Rowlet becomes. I suppose Pikachu and Jiggs don't work that way, but they got famous for the anime. Rowlet was famous the moment he was revealed in the games. And in the games, everyone's favorite gen 7 mon becomes Decidueye. Does this logic make sense to everyone the way it does to me?

You could argue that they could just include Rowlet, but his final form has much much more to work with and still represents Rowlets evolutionary family. It doesn't seem to matter all that much if Decidueye is not on the list; Rowlet is, and that means his evolutionary family remains the most popular Gen 7 starter. I personally prefer Primarina, but I can see why people would vouch for the owl.

Yeah, the logic makes sense but there is a flaw. Yes, everyone's favorite starter eventually becomes a Decidueye. But, the favorite Pokemon still isn't Decidueye. It's Rowlett. There is a distinction to be made there.

Mimikyu is #2. With that being said, with or without taking Pokken into account, is it more fair to just go with Rowlett but make him Decidueye cause he's the final version, or is it more fair to go with the number 2 instead due to Mimikyu technically being more popular? You see the issue here? There really isn't a correct answer, except make Rowlett the Gen 7 rep, I guess.

To top off that nonsense we have to consider things from Sakurai's perspective, whether or not he even cares if Decidueye was in Pokken (which I would assume he doesn't/wouldn't), and even then he may have decided before any character became popular, like with Gen 6.

The BIGGEST reason Decidueye even got the support base it did in the first place was due to the Grass Starter status.
That CANNOT be denied.

I really don't want to see Decidueye and even I have to disagree. The character, at least in the States, is very popular on its own right. I feel like the grass starter thing was more an excuse to include him than anything.

 

[Con0rrrr]

So i've been at E3 and have played the game a few times so if anyone has a question let me know!

Also, in my For Glory match at E3 some annoying dudes in my group decided to farm kills off each other instead of actually play the game so they moved on. Was a pretty **** move

 

[Autumn ♫]

Given that her trophy was cut from Smash 3DS, her outfit might be an actual problem...

Spoiler

RIP Pyra in that case.

Considering that Snake and Bayonetta are both in the game, I don't think the rating is that much of a concern anymore.

Also, I think it's entirely possible we don't see a new Pokemon character this game, considering that we just got the return of 3 previously gone veterans.

 

[Shroob]

Considering that Snake and Bayonetta are both in the game, I don't think the rating is that much of a concern anymore.

Also, I think it's entirely possible we don't see a new Pokemon character this game, considering that we just got the return of 3 previously gone veterans.

>Snake

But, Snake lost his ass.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Fun fact: just noticed that when you perfect shield an attack, your character eyes shine in their icons.

 

[CodakTheWarrior]

That's basically my thoughts on the matter.

They're basically are the same as 'Ninten should be an echo fighter'. They're both absurd, and wouldn't suit being an echo fighter since they have games (or game in Ninten's case) that Sakurai could pull from to make them unique and not a full clone.

So how would you feel about Octoling? In my mind, they would make a perfect echo fighter. They don't any real opportunities as a separate character, but they're still popular enough that I could definitely see them as a last minute addition.

 

[Koopaul]

How dare you assume Samus needs saving.

Anthony Higgs, Rundas, and the Federation Force.

 

[StrangeMann]

So i've been at E3 and have played the game a few times so if anyone has a question let me know!

Also, in my For Glory match at E3 some annoying dudes in my group decided to farm kills off each other instead of actually play the game so they moved on. Was a pretty **** move

How good is ridley? Does he have any followups off of his throws or side b?

 

[monadoboy]

All this rating talk reminded me of ZSS's ending costumes. I'd hate it if they were gone. imo they're so much cooler than the Zero Suit.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Fun fact: just noticed that when you perfect shield an attack, your character eyes shine in their icons.

It just occurred to me, does perfect shielding not reflect projectiles anymore?

 

[Blargg888]

The BIGGEST reason Decidueye even got the support base it did in the first place was due to the Grass Starter status.
That CANNOT be denied.

I didn't deny it.

But as somebody who thinks Decidueye would be a cool newcomer, I think it's plain to see that there's more to Decidueye than it's type, so I rebuff the notion that Ivysaur's inclusion means that Decidueye's possible inclusion has no merit, or that it isn't worth vying for.

The fact that there is more to Decidueye than its type can't be denied.

 

[cmbsfm]

Another anon may have said this, but on the thread it also says:

Spoiler: Leak Spoilers

Dillon, Raichu, Phoenix Wright, and Dark Samus are also in the game, but will be revealed on the Dojo after release, and thus won't receive reveal trailers.

Mimikyu,Raichu,Pichu,and Pikachu? Yeah yeah I know Mimikyu isn’t really Pikachu but come on, that’s way too many pickachu like characters.

But Phoenix Wright would be hype, not gonna lie.

 

[?????????????]

I would not mind Raichu. He’s one of my favorite Pokémon, and he gets the shaft WAY too often.

 

[Zinith]

I would not mind Raichu. He’s one of my favorite Pokémon, and he gets the shaft WAY too often.

It's like Luigi 100-fold...

 

[Skyblade12]

Although I'm not on the "so-and-so hasn't been seen as an AT, they're confirmed!" train just yet, I am taking particular note of which ATs we have been seen.

Again, I think it's possible that some ATs are being held back for if the dev team has time to work them into Echo characters, but will be released as ATs if they can't. And, certainly, some are being withheld for website releases later.

But I do think it's interesting to note which ATs we've seen. Sakurai did not beat around the bush, he just brought Waluigi right out and disconfirmed him. Same with Midna. Takamaru showed up very early. It almost feels as though the most likely to be promoted were stuffed into the demo.

 

[Hinata]

Another anon may have said this, but on the thread it also says:

Spoiler: Leak Spoilers

Dillon, Raichu, Phoenix Wright, and Dark Samus are also in the game, but will be revealed on the Dojo after release, and thus won't receive reveal trailers.

Ashley, Phoenix Wright, and Waluigi?

That does it. This leak is real, purely because I want it to be.