Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

You mean those files that had names like Snake, Squirtle and all the other Brawl character names in them? Weren't they just leftover files from Brawl?

I think they use the previous game assets as a base in order to speed up development as new assets are made for the new game. Hence the Brawl capsule during the Villager showcase and the Brawl Lucario and Diddy Kong fighter portraits during one of the Smash Direct's etc. I could be wrong though....

They were.
That's why there were files for the Alloys.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Exactly. We don't know if Wolf was developed at all. At best we see some of his moves, but that's it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Exactly. We don't know if Wolf was developed at all. At best we see some of his moves, but that's it.

Uh...

You kind of proved nothing there bud.

We all agreed we don't know for sure and just stated what we thought was likely.

You just went in a circle.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Uh...

You kind of proved nothing there bud.

We all agreed we don't know for sure and just stated what we thought was likely.

You just went in a circle.

No, I gave why there was a good reason to believe development of Wolf may exist.

I just posted later on to say "Yes, that is what I meant." But yeah, was a pointless post. I get what you mean. My bad.

Anyway, still miss him.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Something I want changed in the next game is the victory animation screen.

I'm tired of it being in a featureless void with ruins in the distance. I want the victory screen to take place on the stages they just fought on.

This can allow for stage-specific victory animations if characters win on their home stage; for example, Sonic's friends cheer for him if he wins in Green Hill Zone, Bayonetta slays angels if she wins on Umbra Clock Tower, etc.

 

[Deleted member]

If you mean by "Star Fox bias" a last minute semi-clone then yeah DK could use some "bias"
This is the worst misuse of the word "bias" I've seen though I might he biased

Alright, I'll bite and say that this whole bias thing isn't really as big of a deal as you're saying it is:

• In Smash 64, Pikachu was part of the initial plan, and Jigglypuff was added using Kirby as a base, due to her similar body shape and popularity in the Pokemon anime. She and the other three unlockable characters have always been considered later additions due to the amount of moves they share with other characters.
• In Melee, the plan was Zelda / Sheik and Link. That's it. Young Link was a last-minute clone to help broaden the roster, and Ganon was popular enough to make it in extremely last-minute as a Falcon clone (thanks to having a model from Spaceworld's Zelda demo and a similar structure to Cpt. Falcon).
• In Brawl, Kirby added King Dedede and Meta Knight, two of the most popular requested characters for Smash. Dedede has been considered since the beginning, and Meta Knight has always been a popular Kirby character. With Star Fox, they kept the two characters from Melee, and added Wolf last-minute.
• In Smash 4, Kid Icarus only had Pit / Palutena, and FE had Marth / Ike / Robin. Lucina and Dark Pit were last-minute clones using already-existing assets. Even the Smash Run enemies were ported from Uprising just because it was easy enough to do, in order to add more variety. As for DLC, Roy was the most popular Melee vet left (only other options were Pichu and Young Link), and was chosen specifically to fill the role of Melee veteran. Corrin was chosen to promote one of Nintendo's latest games, and he had potential for a unique kit.

This whole "biased Sakurai" crap needs to end when it comes to character selection. Now, the fact we haven't had a stage from a Kirby game released after 2001? I can understand that being biased. But at no point would I say that the roster is biased. The best way to build a roster like Smash is to take iconic, unique and relevant characters from every corner and put them together.

My sentence wasn't meant to be taken seriously. ._.

Also I want to say I'm starting to get really, really, really sick of this attitude on these boards to give likes to comments like these which are meant to debunk an argument, especially when it's more than 3 people giving likes to it.
It's like when people are mocking you when you're running out of argument.

It's such a vicious cycle.

It's in case like this one I wish there would be a "dislike" button as well, or rather this function doesn't exist at all.

 

[_Sheik]

"Can feasibly get".

I'd imagine Disney would be harder to negotiate with.

If Snake was so "feasible", why did he get cut?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

My sentence wasn't meant to be taken seriously. ._.

Also I want to say I'm starting to get really, really, really sick of this attitude on these boards to give likes to comments like these which are meant to debunk an argument, especially when it's more than 3 people giving likes to it.
It's like when people are mocking you when you're running out of argument.

It's such a vicious cycle.

It's in case like this one I wish there would be a "dislike" button as well, or rather this function doesn't exist at all.

Nah my post was meant just to be a snarky smartass and also not to be taken seriously and in no way intended to debunk or deny that these series should get new characters.
Basically everybody here agrees that DK and Metroid, and with the new games, Xenoblade needs new characters so there's no real discussion to be found there, especially when the DK and Metroid representatives that are feasible have also been discussed to hell and back and Xenoblade speculation seems to come down to "Elma or the new guy" as well.

So the only "vicious cycle" to be found here is "Hey Metroid's cool it should get a new character" to "Yeah Sylux and Dark Samus might be prominent in Prime 4 so these are frontrunners" and then basically consensus.

(My inner ****poster wanted to reply with just a salt meme but eeh)

 

[Opossum]

My sentence wasn't meant to be taken seriously. ._.

Also I want to say I'm starting to get really, really, really sick of this attitude on these boards to give likes to comments like these which are meant to debunk an argument, especially when it's more than 3 people giving likes to it.
It's like when people are mocking you when you're running out of argument.

It's such a vicious cycle.

It's in case like this one I wish there would be a "dislike" button as well, or rather this function doesn't exist at all.

I don't get the tangent about likes. What does it matter what posts people like? Likes don't count for anything important lol.

Anyway, to stay on topic...

Something I want changed in the next game is the victory animation screen.

I'm tired of it being in a featureless void with ruins in the distance. I want the victory screen to take place on the stages they just fought on.

This can allow for stage-specific victory animations if characters win on their home stage; for example, Sonic's friends cheer for him if he wins in Green Hill Zone, Bayonetta slays angels if she wins on Umbra Clock Tower, etc.

I actually never thought of this, but man, now I want this. Pretty much every other fighting game does this already anyway, and it seems like such a simple thing to implement.

 

[Deleted member]

If Snake was so "feasible", why did he get cut?

Just because someone is "feasible" doesn't mean someone is guaranteed to show up.

Everyone wants to blame Konami being "unnegotiable" for Snake not being in Smash 4.....but have they ever stopped to actually consider that there was a beary (very) specific reason Snake got in Smash to begin with.....? One that didn't come into play for Smash 4 and is no longer going to be a factor for the future.....?

Upupupupu.....
Sorry, have been on a bit of a Danganronpa kick lately.....

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wolf might've been cut early indeed, same with Lucas. This only further gives me a distain for Sakurai's choices concerning veteran Smash franchises.. Why would MOTHER and Star Fox get less characters, whilst their main cast mostly consists of semi-clones of the main chararacter? It makes very little sense, considering how much easier it would be to transfer their moveset over due to the similarities. I also think Falco was made into a more slower ""powerhouse"" to make up for the loss of Wolf.

Veteran franchises need more love. Honestly. And the franchises I want adressed mostly are simply the biggest and most popular outside of Mario and Pokemon, The Legend of Zelda and Donkey Kong Country. Is that so much to ask for? Two of the biggest and most recognisable franchises in Nintendo...?

Sure it's a lost hope to ask for a second Yoshi's Island character, or F-Zero for the matter. Even Wario might stay alone, and the favor goes to another character from Animal Crossing, Xenoblade, Fire Emblem (OF COURSE!) or even Sonic (I still think a second character from Sonic is more likely than anything from DKC, Zelda or Metroid). I just cannot see why it's becoming such an outlandish idea to have a new Zelda or Donkey Kong character while we all thought we'd get new faces in the last installment.

The roster might be HUGE now, but I still think it's severly lacking.

 

[Opossum]

Wolf might've been cut early indeed, same with Lucas. This only further gives me a distain for Sakurai's choices concerning veteran Smash franchises.. Why would MOTHER and Star Fox get less characters, whilst their main cast mostly consists of semi-clones of the main chararacter? It makes very little sense, considering how much easier it would be to transfer their moveset over due to the similarities. I also think Falco was made into a more slower ""powerhouse"" to make up for the loss of Wolf.

Veteran franchises need more love. Honestly. And the franchises I want adressed mostly are simply the biggest and most popular outside of Mario and Pokemon, The Legend of Zelda and Donkey Kong Country. Is that so much to ask for? Two of the biggest and most recognisable franchises in Nintendo...?

Sure it's a lost hope to ask for a second Yoshi's Island character, or F-Zero for the matter. Even Wario might stay alone, and the favor goes to another character from Animal Crossing, Xenoblade, Fire Emblem (OF COURSE!) or even Sonic (I still think a second character from Sonic is more likely than anything from DKC, Zelda or Metroid). I just cannot see why it's becoming such an outlandish idea to have a new Zelda or Donkey Kong character while we all thought we'd get new faces in the last installment.

The roster might be HUGE now, but I still think it's severly lacking.

Lucas and Wolf were in weird spots. They were similar enough to Ness and Fox that they'd be easier to bring over than, say, Ivysaur, whose build and moves are incredibly different, but at the same time different enough to make them take a good chunk of time to make. Their fighting styles and animations are completely different, so it's not like Melee styled clones.

Add that to the fact that EarthBound and (at the time) Star Fox were either dead or dormant for years, and it's not hard to see why they were cut.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Regarding Zelda, I think I'd like to raise a question about it right now (one that's surely been asked plenty of times, but eh....)

How many "major" Zelda characters do we have left at this point?

We've got Link. We've got Zelda. We've got Ganondorf. Those are the big three characters for that series.

We do have Sheik as well, who was a sort of different-playstyle addition to the incarnation of Zelda that was chosen for Melee and got branched off into her own character for the sake of balance as of Smash 4. Young Link and Toon Link were added as semi-clones (I admittedly forget if the specific reason Toon was considered for the game was ever stated) and I imagine the latter of those two was surely kept thanks to his popularity (if I recall right, he was however still low priority in Smash 4 like he was in Brawl, so being cut was certainly a possibility for him). With those two exceptions, who else do we have?

Impa's been getting more recurring and important roles in the series over the years, so Sheik's slot on the roster remaining or not, I think she stands out well enough to be one of the stronger candidates, compared to the rest.

Tetra has a sizeable fanbase, and Toon Zelda does seem to have been considered for Brawl along with a "toon_sheik" (Whether this was meant to be Tetra as a semi-clone or clone of Sheik or an actual Toon Sheik isn't really clear; the latter is possible because of the name alone, obviously enough, but I think it helps that the "original" Sheik got an updated Twilight Princess-esque design for Brawl, despite that disguise/identity never appearing in that Zelda game, so they really may have intended to go with the route of making an actual Toon-styled Sheik for the game) so that's something. Question is if Sakurai will consider either of them again. Given that Toon Link was low priority twice already, if nothing else, she'd probably be the same even if she did get another chance.

Tingle remains popular in Japan as far as I know. I kind of want to say his addition would be controversial (given the amount of criticism and negative reception he's gotten in the West) but we've had plenty of controversial additions to Smash anyway, so that doesn't entirely discount hm. That said, at this point, he's kind of an oddball candidate in comparison to the others in my eyes. I mean.....while he did get several games of his own (in Japan and Europe at least) and Hyrule Warriors is an indication that Nintendo hasn't completely ditched the actual character, his role in the main series has been diminishing over the years, and honestly, his role in them was never really that important to begin with. He's not a major hero or a major villain. He's a side character at best, and again, one who's mostly been fading away for a while now, until Hyrule Warriors came along. Although I'm not sure how much any of that would matter if Sakurai saw any unique and fun potential in him, considering he's been an Assist Trophy in the series twice now already, the chances of that happening aren't looking decent for him either.

The only other character that really comes to my mind is Vaati, and he's been fading away even more than Tingle, outside of his dedicated fanbase.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Zelda can get plenty of more characters. You don't really have to stop at the main three, proof shown when Mario didn't stop at their main 4. Personally, I think someone from BotW would be likely to be next due to the sheer popularity of the game itself, but outside of that, Impa and Tingle seem to be the top runners.

 

[Curious Villager]

Young Link and Toon Link were added as semi-clones (I admittedly forget if the specific reason Toon was considered for the game was ever stated) and I imagine the latter of those two was surely kept thanks to his popularity (if I recall right, he was however still low priority in Smash 4 like he was in Brawl, so being cut was certainly a possibility for him).

Wasn't Toon Link one of the first veterans revealed post E3 and like a whole year before the games where released? I don't know at approximately when they start implementing low priority characters, but I don't think Toon Link was one of them this time around....

 

[Deleted member]

The reason for Lucas' original absence in Smash 4 can likely be explained by Sakurai's issues with Japan-only characters (other than Marth, I guess).

We almost lost Marth and Roy for the overseas release of Melee, though Sakurai pushed for at least Marth to stay while NoA convinced him to keep Roy as well.
Ayumi Tachibana was considered for Melee, but was decided against because "she wouldn't really work overseas".
Takamaru was given consideration for Smash 4, but was decided against due to a lack of overseas popularity (note that while his guest appearance in Samurai Warriors 3 happened before Smash 4's development, his game getting a worldwide release on 3DS' Virtual Console was long after characters were decided).


Notably, when Lucas was decided for Brawl's roster, his game wasn't even released in Japan yet, which meant Sakurai would have no way in knowing Mother 3 wouldn't have been localized. In essence, Lucas was just as much promotion as the likes of Lucario, Greninja, and Corrin were.
My bet is, had Brawl's roster been decided later, after Mother 3's release and subsequent lack of localization, Lucas wouldn't have been so lucky.

Lucas and Wolf were in weird spots. They were similar enough to Ness and Fox that they'd be easier to bring over than, say, Ivysaur, whose build and moves are incredibly different, but at the same time different enough to make them take a good chunk of time to make. Their fighting styles and animations are completely different, so it's not like Melee styled clones.

Add that to the fact that EarthBound and (at the time) Star Fox were either dead or dormant for years, and it's not hard to see why they were cut.

It may not have been like Melee styled clones, but just like Wolf back in Brawl as well as Lucas when he was DLC and Roy, there wouldn't have been as much time needed to work them in considering they all started with their counterparts' animations as their base and were tweaked from there.

Take what Sakurai had said when asked about Wolf's addition in favor of Krystal's:

Sakurai: For Krystal, we didn’t have any of the technical modeling knowledge that we had cultivated with Fox and Falco, so it was like making a brand-new character from scratch. And because of the limited amount of time we had, creating Krystal wasn’t realistically possible. On that point, with Wolf we already have some knowledge of how to model his character, and would require about 70% of the effort required to create a whole new character.

I really don't think he or Lucas were axed for time issues. As for Star Fox being "dead/dormant", that wasn't truly the case when characters were decided in 2012 as the case was for Earthbound/Mother.
A remake it may have been, but Star Fox 64 3D was still relatively fresh with not even a full year between release and Smash's roster being "finalized".

This is a huge reason why I feel the reason Wolf didn't make the cut was because he wasn't meant to. There was honestly no real reason for him to not have been included otherwise unlike the others who didn't (initially in Lucas' case) make the jump from Brawl to Smash 4.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Wasn't Toon Link one of the first veterans revealed post E3 and like a whole year before the games where released? I don't know at approximately when they start implementing low priority characters, but I don't think Toon Link was one of them this time around....

Hm, that is true.

Maybe I was wrong about that one.....

Zelda can get plenty of more characters. You don't really have to stop at the main three, proof shown when Mario didn't stop at their main 4. Personally, I think someone from BotW would be likely to be next due to the sheer popularity of the game itself, but outside of that, Impa and Tingle seem to be the top runners.

You've got a point there, but the thing is both Jr. (and the Koopalings, too) and Rosalina have become increasingly more recurring and significant characters in that franchise over the years. Maybe it's just me, but other than Impa, Zelda doesn't have many characters quite like that right now.

 

[DJ3DS]

Regarding Zelda, I think I'd like to raise a question about it right now (one that's surely been asked plenty of times, but eh....)

How many "major" Zelda characters do we have left at this point?

We've got Link. We've got Zelda. We've got Ganondorf. Those are the big three characters for that series.

We do have Sheik as well, who was a sort of different-playstyle addition to the incarnation of Zelda that was chosen for Melee and got branched off into her own character for the sake of balance as of Smash 4. Young Link and Toon Link were added as semi-clones (I admittedly forget if the specific reason Toon was considered for the game was ever stated) and I imagine the latter of those two was surely kept thanks to his popularity (if I recall right, he was however still low priority in Smash 4 like he was in Brawl, so being cut was certainly a possibility for him). With those two exceptions, who else do we have?

Impa's been getting more recurring and important roles in the series over the years, so Sheik's slot on the roster remaining or not, I think she stands out well enough to be one of the stronger candidates, compared to the rest.

Tetra has a sizeable fanbase, and Toon Zelda does seem to have been considered for Brawl along with a "toon_sheik" (Whether this was meant to be Tetra as a semi-clone or clone of Sheik or an actual Toon Sheik isn't really clear; the latter is possible because of the name alone, obviously enough, but I think it helps that the "original" Sheik got an updated Twilight Princess-esque design for Brawl, despite that disguise/identity never appearing in that Zelda game, so they really may have intended to go with the route of making an actual Toon-styled Sheik for the game) so that's something. Question is if Sakurai will consider either of them again. Given that Toon Link was low priority twice already, if nothing else, she'd probably be the same even if she did get another chance.

Tingle remains popular in Japan as far as I know. I kind of want to say his addition would be controversial (given the amount of criticism and negative reception he's gotten in the West) but we've had plenty of controversial additions to Smash anyway, so that doesn't entirely discount hm. That said, at this point, he's kind of an oddball candidate in comparison to the others in my eyes. I mean.....while he did get several games of his own (in Japan and Europe at least) and Hyrule Warriors is an indication that Nintendo hasn't completely ditched the actual character, his role in the main series has been diminishing over the years, and honestly, his role in them was never really that important to begin with. He's not a major hero or a major villain. He's a side character at best, and again, one who's mostly been fading away for a while now, until Hyrule Warriors came along. Although I'm not sure how much any of that would matter if Sakurai saw any unique and fun potential in him, considering he's been an Assist Trophy in the series twice now already, the chances of that happening aren't looking decent for him either.

The only other character that really comes to my mind is Vaati, and he's been fading away even more than Tingle, outside of his dedicated fanbase.

There's also your classic Pig Ganon, who would be my personal pick for the franchise. No idea of his level of popularity relative to other characters but he's certainly appeared enough (and recently too) to warrant serious mention.

 

[Delzethin]

Regarding Zelda, I think I'd like to raise a question about it right now (one that's surely been asked plenty of times, but eh....)

How many "major" Zelda characters do we have left at this point?

At this point, it's less about filling in gaps and more about what opportunities present themselves. We're best off looking at major characters from games that are relevant at the right time to be considered.

Breath of the Wild is our game to look at here. The question is: who from it may have been looked at or even given the go ahead to become a newcomer?

 

[Deleted member]

Breath of the Wild is our game to look at here. The question is: who from it may have been looked at or even given the go ahead to become a newcomer?

Other than "Wild(s)/Champion" Link, it's really hard to imagine anyone who would be considered.

Yeah, it'd be "another Link", but at least he'd be designed a lot differently from the standard/Toon version due to how Breath of the Wild works compared to the rest of the series.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I still like Moblin Ganon as an option.

Anyway, that's an interesting point about Wolf.

That said, didn't Sakurai say "some characters were cut because they had no new games coming out"? Remakes aren't "new" games, arguably. If he means completely new entries, then it makes sense Wolf was cut. If he meant new as in not just VC ports, then Wolf was simply just not in the books.

Assuming I got that quote right, anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding a new Zelda character, I don't expect anything more than a moveset overhaul based to how he plays in BotW, like no more hookshot for his grab to begin with.

I could imagine an overhaul for as well, thus she might finally become a competent fighter.

And, while they don't appear in BotW, I can still see and being redesigned after BotW's artstyle.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

, didn't Sakurai say "some characters were cut because they had no new games coming out"?

I don't think he ever said that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I could imagine an overhaul for as well, thus she might finally become a competent fighter

I will ****ing scream if they don't do this or at the very least balance her

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think he ever said that.

He said something like this to further explain 's absence anyway: https://mynintendonews.com/2014/09/...s-arent-in-smash-bros-wii-u-and-nintendo-3ds/

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not the article I'm talking about. He had a different one, where he specifies why some were low priority.

 

[Deleted member]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JokeCharacter

This is what a "joke character" is. A character purposely designed to be weak. This is not what Wii Fit Trainer is.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FightingClown

This is what Wii Fit Trainer is. A Fighting Clown. A character that is a "silly" fighter while designed to be on par with the rest of the cast.

Learn the difference.

I will add that Golden is going straight from Sakurai's mouth.

They aren't his opinions but Sakurai's.

As for the joke character thing. He's correct there too. Joke Character =/= Fighting Clown

Take Street Fighter 4 for example.

Rufus isn't the joke character, but he's super silly. Dan is the joke character because he's downright terrible (and we love it).

It's like the difference between and

For what it's worth.

Joke characters and fighting clowns tend to have a lot of overlap. Or rather, the fighting clown is an sub archetype of a joke character. Not all joke characters are meant to be intentionally bad. Regardless of how TV Tropes defines it.

Fighting game archetypes aren't written in stone, and there is no set series of rules. For example, the difference between a Zone Breaker and a Rushdown character can really come down to simply one move. But then, would a Zone Breaker be a Rushdown? Take Zero Suit Samus, Jam, and Cammy. How do you categorize them all? Some people argue that Rushdown characters don't have projectiles. But then, what about Noel in Blazblue? She's 100% Rushdown, but she has projectiles. And if Rushdowns can have projectiles then, then what about the ones that don't? What about the ones who use projectiles to pressure opponents rather than follow through with combos? And how does this differ from more balanced characters like say Ryu? What about Sol Badguy? He's generally referred to as a Rushdown character, yet he has projectiles, and can defend himself fairly well. You see where this starts to get complicated? It also comes down to the game itself, and how its mechanics are designed to benefit certain styles of play over others.

In all honesty, fighting game archetypes really are more beneficial for DESIGNING characters than they are for breaking them down.

And this is doubly true for Smash, which doesn't even follow classic fighting game conventions, nor does it design its characters with the same degree of nuance and meticulous attention to detail you'd see in say Guilty Gear or Darkstalkers, where each and every move given to a character is carefully thought out and balanced. Just look at how many characters in Smash 4 have a throwaway counter for their Down B. When designing fighting games, this is a very big no-no. And it's partly because of this that many people in the FGC (including other developers like Harada, Ishiwatari, and even Sakurai himself), don't actually see Smash as a proper fighting game.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Can we stop taking the whole "relevance thing" so far that veterans without it are auto-cut and newcomers will never even be considered unless they had a game release three months ago?

The roster was decided in 2012.
Rosalina was basically picked based on potential and Super Mario Galaxy.
Not 3D World.

Quite possibly the same for Villager, who was revealed to coincide with New Leaf hype, but that doesn't mean he was chosen for it.

Yes, relevance matters in a way because it shows which characters from last generation are one-offs and which have a future but there's no magic time period that every character can get it based on relevance and everybody who didn't get one gets cut or turns into a no-hoper.

Inb4 Source Gaming Famitsu translations prove me wrong

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Relevance does play a role, though. Some are chosen mainly because of it. Greninja was chosen specifically to be a Gen VI rep alone, but also happened that Sakurai was able to figure out a movset just by the concept art. Shulk got in mostly due to the timing of the Xenoblade series. There's reasons why popular requests were often turned into Mii costumes too. Not everybody could become playable, but some could get costumes to appeal to those fans. Why do you think Takamaru got a costume? Appeal. He also wasn't chosen due to the fact he has little showing in other regions at the time. He was basically closer to a retro option than anything else.

Things aren't black and white like you're making them sound.

What you are applying as rules are just guidelines he follows from time to time. Smash 4 had a bigger focus on relevance than some games, and he wanted many newcomers(bar clones) to have a new gimmick of sorts. Something to make them stand out. The key exceptions among this were Pac-Man(he just couldn't figure out a moveset, and he has no gimmick to speak of), Wii Fit Trainer(chosen as a "nobody saw this coming" while showing off the fun of exercise, but still has no actual gimmick to speak of), and MegaMan(based upon his retro moves, but still had no direct gimmick. While he described it as such, it's not a gameplay one so much as him being variable as what makes him fun and interesting).

To say the least, gimmicks came in two flavors. A straight gameplay one, and one that described what the character represents. The exception I spoke of above(MegaMan, Wii Fit Trainer, and Pac-Man) all show what it means to have a representation-based design. Villager, on the other hand, doesn't directly fit either role. Closest he had was the ability to steal projectiles, but that was more of an ideal, that he can use any object lying around, which is somewhat closer to the second style of gimmick.

Of course there's exceptions to the relevance guidelines. He can't only use those characters. He has to appeal to many. That's why relevant options are used as well as retros, 3rd parties, easy clones, and veterans. They all are part of it, and he has guidelines for each of them. There is no hard rules(and closest to one is his 3rd party rule of them appearing in video games first. Not every 3rd party must be iconic, as Bayonetta was an exception to that guideline. Even though it was due to the ballot, it still meant he was willing to make an exception to it even then. That's why it's not a hard rule. He found a reason to bend it. Hard rules are unbendable no matter what. He's got one. That's it. No more).

 

[Luminario]

At this point, it's less about filling in gaps and more about what opportunities present themselves. We're best off looking at major characters from games that are relevant at the right time to be considered.

Breath of the Wild is our game to look at here. The question is: who from it may have been looked at or even given the go ahead to become a newcomer?

Bring in a random Champion (Mipha). They could then bring along the rest of the champions as part of their moveset.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Relevance does play a role, though. Some are chosen mainly because of it. Greninja was chosen specifically to be a Gen VI rep alone, but also happened that Sakurai was able to figure out a movset just by the concept art. Shulk got in mostly due to the timing of the Xenoblade series. There's reasons why popular requests were often turned into Mii costumes too. Not everybody could become playable, but some could get costumes to appeal to those fans. Why do you think Takamaru got a costume? Appeal. He also wasn't chosen due to the fact he has little showing in other regions at the time. He was basically closer to a retro option than anything else.

Things aren't black and white like you're making them sound.

What you are applying as rules are just guidelines he follows from time to time. Smash 4 had a bigger focus on relevance than some games, and he wanted many newcomers(bar clones) to have a new gimmick of sorts. Something to make them stand out. The key exceptions among this were Pac-Man(he just couldn't figure out a moveset, and he has no gimmick to speak of), Wii Fit Trainer(chosen as a "nobody saw this coming" while showing off the fun of exercise, but still has no actual gimmick to speak of), and MegaMan(based upon his retro moves, but still had no direct gimmick. While he described it as such, it's not a gameplay one so much as him being variable as what makes him fun and interesting).

To say the least, gimmicks came in two flavors. A straight gameplay one, and one that described what the character represents. The exception I spoke of above(MegaMan, Wii Fit Trainer, and Pac-Man) all show what it means to have a representation-based design. Villager, on the other hand, doesn't directly fit either role. Closest he had was the ability to steal projectiles, but that was more of an ideal, that he can use any object lying around, which is somewhat closer to the second style of gimmick.

Of course there's exceptions to the relevance guidelines. He can't only use those characters. He has to appeal to many. That's why relevant options are used as well as retros, 3rd parties, easy clones, and veterans. They all are part of it, and he has guidelines for each of them. There is no hard rules(and closest to one is his 3rd party rule of them appearing in video games first. Not every 3rd party must be iconic, as Bayonetta was an exception to that guideline. Even though it was due to the ballot, it still meant he was willing to make an exception to it even then. That's why it's not a hard rule. He found a reason to bend it. Hard rules are unbendable no matter what. He's got one. That's it. No more).

I know relevance plays a big role, but since moveset potential also plays a role relevance isn't all-deciding.
People are too quick to attribute a newcomer to its newest game, instead of the legacy before it.
Rosalina would be chosen because of her 3D World appearance, Little Mac because of Punch Out Wii.
They helped, but since they're mostly taking moves from their debuts (Villager doesn't have the New Leaf design, for example) relevance gets too much credit as being the sole decider of rosters

So yeah I agree with "rules" just being factors that all play into the decision for a certain newcomer.

Bring in a random Champion (Mipha). They could then bring along the rest of the champions as part of their moveset.

Yeah I could see Revali using a Zora Spear

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Shulk got in mostly due to the timing of the Xenoblade series
Wii Fit Trainer(chosen as a "nobody saw this coming" while showing off the fun of exercise, but still has no actual gimmick to speak of)

1: Sakurai mentioned Shulk's insane fan demand in Japan, and considering fan demand is what brought Xenoblade to the west, it's not just the timing either.
2: Deep Breathing is the Wii Fit Trainer's gimmick, as no other characters can heal and buff themselves

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It's an interesting question, to be honest. While more can be better, I would see no problem with the next game having a smaller roster because expanding the roster can make development either much longer or much more rushed, the latter leading to more clone-like characters. Not to mention the game would be a nightmare to balance with a larger cast.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1: Sakurai mentioned Shulk's insane fan demand in Japan, and considering fan demand is what brought Xenoblade to the west, it's not just the timing either.
2: Deep Breathing is the Wii Fit Trainer's gimmick, as no other characters can heal and buff themselves

1: True, but relevance also was important too. I didn't say it was only relevance. I said mostly(which means a big role in it). But fair, it's more the opposite of what I said. My bad.
2: I honestly forgot that was her specific gimmick. Thanks for the correction.

I know relevance plays a big role, but since moveset potential also plays a role relevance isn't all-deciding.
People are too quick to attribute a newcomer to its newest game, instead of the legacy before it.
Rosalina would be chosen because of her 3D World appearance, Little Mac because of Punch Out Wii.
They helped, but since they're mostly taking moves from their debuts (Villager doesn't have the New Leaf design, for example) relevance gets too much credit as being the sole decider of rosters

So yeah I agree with "rules" just being factors that all play into the decision for a certain newcomer.

Moveset potential is a more important factor at times(clones aside), but they still need to fit criteria beyond that anyway. Just having potential alone won't work. There has to be more to it than that. Like how to make it interesting, would people recognize the character(in most cases), does it fit something you're already looking for? You'll notice many unique characters not there because they lacked the timing. Games need to be heavily in development and nearly out or were recently out around the time Smash is being created to easily fit the timing window. That doesn't entirely apply to each character, but you gotta remember that not everyone was chosen because of relevance. In some cases, they were chosen for who they are retro-wise as an option. Little Mac is based heavily on his older games since that's where the appeal is. He's not a literal retro character(since his last appearance way on the previous console), however, he was based upon his more retro options and his far older appearances instead. Pac-Man is the same way. He's definitely relevant due to his character overall getting new and active games/works, but he was based upon his retro design specifically. On the other hand, MegaMan didn't have straight-out relevance going for him due to Capcom. However, being iconic, he fit the 3rd party criteria, and was based upon a very memorable version of him, namely, the retro design. Not that he was lacking in games overall over the years, but nothing being worked on/released while Smash 4 was being developed.

That said, I think maybe there's a misunderstanding on how he works with relevance. It means that a character has a new entry that's coming out, or being worked on, during the time Smash is currently being developed. Sometimes it needs to be fairly early on during development(since the roster is often decided somewhat early on), although some clear exceptions exist besides DLC. Namely the clones.

The other thing to remember is that, and it bears repeating; Relevance means this character is currently active. It does not mean "must base them on this appearance". Rosalina isn't directly based upon a specific appearance for her gimmick. It's more an idea based upon the thought of what she could do, including the fact she can work with Lumas. The floatiness and such is more the idea of her being in space and seemingly able to work well with gravity(although to be fair, is this outright mentioned in any game? Cause I haven't played some of them. I know that was part of Rosalina's gimmick, her gravity control, along with being a puppet character archtype).

@PushDustIn Could you link the articles that explain how Relevance is used? I'm not remembering everything or every example well enough to explain. >.<

 

[Deleted member]

While we're summoning @PushDustIn , I would like to know if @PushDustIn knows a source about which models of characters from the base roster the DLC characters are made from.

I remember having read an article made by @PushDustIn about it and @PushDustIn said that, besides Mewtwo:
- is made from .
- Both and / are made from .
- is made from .
- And / is made from .

Though I haven't seen anything about / on that matter.
Maybe he was based on ?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

1: True, but relevance also was important too. I didn't say it was only relevance. I said mostly(which means a big role in it). But fair, it's more the opposite of what I said. My bad.
2: I honestly forgot that was her specific gimmick. Thanks for the correction.


Moveset potential is a more important factor at times(clones aside), but they still need to fit criteria beyond that anyway. Just having potential alone won't work. There has to be more to it than that. Like how to make it interesting, would people recognize the character(in most cases), does it fit something you're already looking for? You'll notice many unique characters not there because they lacked the timing. Games need to be heavily in development and nearly out or were recently out around the time Smash is being created to easily fit the timing window. That doesn't entirely apply to each character, but you gotta remember that not everyone was chosen because of relevance. In some cases, they were chosen for who they are retro-wise as an option. Little Mac is based heavily on his older games since that's where the appeal is. He's not a literal retro character(since his last appearance way on the previous console), however, he was based upon his more retro options and his far older appearances instead. Pac-Man is the same way. He's definitely relevant due to his character overall getting new and active games/works, but he was based upon his retro design specifically. On the other hand, MegaMan didn't have straight-out relevance going for him due to Capcom. However, being iconic, he fit the 3rd party criteria, and was based upon a very memorable version of him, namely, the retro design. Not that he was lacking in games overall over the years, but nothing being worked on/released while Smash 4 was being developed.

That said, I think maybe there's a misunderstanding on how he works with relevance. It means that a character has a new entry that's coming out, or being worked on, during the time Smash is currently being developed. Sometimes it needs to be fairly early on during development(since the roster is often decided somewhat early on), although some clear exceptions exist besides DLC. Namely the clones.

The other thing to remember is that, and it bears repeating; Relevance means this character is currently active. It does not mean "must base them on this appearance". Rosalina isn't directly based upon a specific appearance for her gimmick. It's more an idea based upon the thought of what she could do, including the fact she can work with Lumas. The floatiness and such is more the idea of her being in space and seemingly able to work well with gravity(although to be fair, is this outright mentioned in any game? Cause I haven't played some of them. I know that was part of Rosalina's gimmick, her gravity control, along with being a puppet character archtype).

@PushDustIn Could you link the articles that explain how Relevance is used? I'm not remembering everything or every example well enough to explain. >.<

I basically agree with all your points so this is more a case of me not clearly wording my point of view.
Though I do think a character can be "currently active" without a game releasing on an exact point in time like exactly prior to or during development and even then I think quite a few more characters would've made the cut without a relevant game, such as Wii Fit Trainer getting in on original Wii Fit alone instead of Wii Fit Plus U or Rosalina who could've missed Mario Kart 7 in my opinion.
Thing is we can't guess who would've or wouldn't have made the cut with or without these fairly specific games which is why people can always attribute Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion to the helping relevance of Wii Fit U or Rosalina making the cut because Waluigi skipped MK7 instead of her.
Smash has mostly been about the previous generation of Nintendo so I fail to see why "the relevance window" gets so finicky now.

Maybe my understanding of your definition of "relevance" is off but to me everyone that has made a splash on the previous generation is fair game since it means they're "still alive" even if they wouldn't have a new game directly before or during Smash development (though it can't hurt)

Not saying the more time-savvy relevance isn't important, but I doubt Wolf was cut because of it or characters were "mostly" decided on having a small game like MK7 or Wii Fit U outside of the enormous splash they made "too early" (Galaxy and OG Wii Fit)

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Breath of the Will is kind of iffy as far as what it can really bring as far as newcomers (The Champions may be a big part of the game, but we knew so little of them without going into spoiler territory). There the BotW Link overhaul/playable separate Link idea, but what's stopping us from getting a costume reference like Skyward Sword?

Though I can see a stage, new songs, and maybe some items (the Sheikah Slate with some runes) being inclusions.

 

[Curious Villager]

I can see some of the weapons from Breath of the Wild being items in Smash, such as the Wizzrobe Rods. Maybe one of the champions could be an assist trophy, don't know in terms of playable characters though...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Breath of the Will is kind of iffy as far as what it can really bring as far as newcomers (The Champions may be a big part of the game, but we knew so little of them without going into spoiler territory). There the BotW Link overhaul/playable separate Link idea, but what's stopping us from getting a costume reference like Skyward Sword?

Though I can see a stage, new songs, and maybe some items (the Sheikah Slate with some runes) being inclusions.

I think this is why we may see TP Link again. Mainly, the lack of a Ganondorf design for BOTW. If one exists, that might help. Then again, that doesn't apply to Sheik either. It is notable Sakurai wants to keep those 4 in the same artstyle. This is why I think our chance for a newcomer is going to be a unique character(either Moblin Ganon or someone like Impa, Midna, etc.) instead of another Link moveset change. I do think his moveset will somewhat be changed up to a degree if anything would happen to him. Much like they upgraded his items to the TP design. Smaller changes like new Bomb designs(and possibly stronger), perhaps something unique related to his ability to create ice platforms, like a new Final Smash(if that's not a new Stage).

There's great potential for an overhaul, but I feel his main 4 specials are going to stay the same ideal type of weapon/ability. Worst part is Toon Link hasn't had a new game in a while, so giving him something unique isn't an easier option. That said, I wish his Grab was the Grappling Hook. >.>

I basically agree with all your points so this is more a case of me not clearly wording my point of view.
Though I do think a character can be "currently active" without a game releasing on an exact point in time like exactly prior to or during development and even then I think quite a few more characters would've made the cut without a relevant game, such as Wii Fit Trainer getting in on original Wii Fit alone instead of Wii Fit Plus U or Rosalina who could've missed Mario Kart 7 in my opinion.
Thing is we can't guess who would've or wouldn't have made the cut with or without these fairly specific games which is why people can always attribute Wii Fit Trainer's inclusion to the helping relevance of Wii Fit U or Rosalina making the cut because Waluigi skipped MK7 instead of her.
Smash has mostly been about the previous generation of Nintendo so I fail to see why "the relevance window" gets so finicky now.

Maybe my understanding of your definition of "relevance" is off but to me everyone that has made a splash on the previous generation is fair game since it means they're "still alive" even if they wouldn't have a new game directly before or during Smash development (though it can't hurt)

Not saying the more time-savvy relevance isn't important, but I doubt Wolf was cut because of it or characters were "mostly" decided on having a small game like MK7 or Wii Fit U outside of the enormous splash they made "too early" (Galaxy and OG Wii Fit)

To note, I'm pretty sure Wii Fit Trainer was an exception to relevance and more the fact she was a unique idea Sakurai had. The relevance part possibly played a role. And yeah, Rosalina being in multiple games made her an easy option besides moveset potential. MK7 seemed more likely to be important than 3D World, but it also depends when he got the idea and what influenced it(if it was a specific game).

Actually, I have noticed that there's some cases where the timing of the games do matter for inclusion. Besides being specified like in Greninja's case. For the most part, the "previous generation" is more used for stages/music/items, less so the character. Villager was considered for Brawl, but it took this long to get an idea. He's not a specific case of relevance. Wolf may have been relevance-related both times. Basically, what I mean is that it entirely depends on the character. We just were confirmed by Sakurai that he does take relevance into account too, that's all. One thing to note is R.O.B.'s timing was right around after getting a Mario Kart DS appearance, so there are probably cases of "they actually have new appearances in general in new games, so they might be easier for people to know". He's still a retro character, obviously. But to be fair, we don't know entirely how Sakurai defines retro. Does it make designed like a retro? From a retro game(games that are more than one console behind seems the likely explanation. For instance, N64 would make NES retro, but SNES would not be yet). I dunno. That said, it's cool he looks in tons of places, and doesn't follow one particular rule for inclusion.

Anyway, we clearly just were talking around each other. Welp.

 

[_Sheik]

Characters "fade away" solely because of relevance... As the likes of Vaati have made no appearances in their series' recent games, their popularity and the hype they had going for themselves were bound to plummet eventually. However, Pauline's return in Odyssey (or, say, 17's return in Dragon Ball Super) are evidence that characters that were once dormant can still spark out a notable degree of popularity thanks to their reborn relevance.

The relevance fades, the potential remains. And potential alone can be a core element to efficiently defining a playable character in Smash, isn't it? Sakurai's just gotta dive in and dig it up like he did with Pit back in Brawl's days.