Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Argos]

Crash is definitely more popular than Rayman in Japan, though I guess we'll have to see how they take to remake to see if there's still demand there (it releases next month over there). Naughty Dog's own timeline says the first Crash got at least 500,000 sales while Crash 3 made over a million, both of which are really good for a Western game over there. Last we heard of Rayman, uh, he wasn't doing so great, unfortunately. Now those are obviously totally different scenarios, but I couldn't find data on how much Rayman sold during its mid-nineties height. The fact that Nintendo had to step in to publish it in Japan means that Ubisoft probably hadn't had a lot of luck with Rayman titles there recently, though. I meant my earlier comparison as more of an illustrative point than a Crash v. Rayman Death Match, though.

One interesting tidbit I found while looking up Japanese sales was that Crash had a slight redesign over there to mesh better with Japanese sensibilities. I could see that causing some trouble as Sakurai is probably more familiar with the Japanese version while I assume Activision will be more interested in promoting the Western version, and negotiating for multiple likenesses might be more of a pain.

Regardless of who "deserves" it more based on "qualifications" that we as fans consider, the one that's more "likely" is the one that is more requested by default.

After that, other factors that have to do with the characters' rights (rather than "who has more games, who has more 'history', etc.) come into play.

This is basically what I'm doing, though? Not sure if I'm making myself clear, my bullet points tried to stick to sales (as a way to try and gauge popularity more broadly) and address possible rights issues in terms of how likely the major actors are to work with one another. It can be fun to talk about "legacy" and whatnot but that's not what I was trying to do here, just trying to point out a potential blindspot where popularity among smash speculators might not mesh with popularity among wider audiences.

 

[Deleted member]

This is basically what I'm doing, though? Not sure if I'm making myself clear, my bullet points tried to stick to sales (as a way to try and gauge popularity more broadly) and address possible rights issues in terms of how likely the major actors are to work with one another. It can be fun to talk about "legacy" and whatnot but that's not what I was trying to do here, just trying to point out a potential blindspot where popularity among smash speculators might not mesh with popularity among wider audiences.

Wasn't saying that in specific regards to what you were saying, just saying that in general for everyone
No need to worry.

 

[APC99]

Crash would be straight up hilarious, and it's actually more probable than most think he is.
Nintendo doesn't care anymore about games exclusivity, if a character is relevant, wanted, and may bring some more sales, they're going to consider it. It happend with Cloud after FF7 Remake was announced on "PS4 first", it happened with Ryu after Street Fighter V was announced as a PS4/PC exclusive, so nothing is stopping Crash. Of course, the much more interesting and better designed Spyro gets the short end of the stick once again.
I'm honestly hoping for this to be true only for the reactions from the Playstation Battle Royale crowd. The Cloud one was hilarious and sad at the same time.

I don't think Ryu / Cloud were meant to tie in with SFV / FF7 Remake, to be honest. Street Fighter revitalized fighting games and is one of the most iconic game franchises EVER, and Final Fantasy is the exact same, but with the RPG / JRPG. Ryu and Cloud are designed around Street Fighter II and Final Fantasy VII, respectively, and take most of their inspiration from those specific games.

The third-parties we have so far are considered the cream of the crop. When you look at what's considered the best games of all time, you'll see their games front and center:

• / PAC-MAN completely changed gaming when it first appeared in the arcades. It created an entirely new genre, introduced staples such as actual characters, power-ups, cutscenes, and became the first game character to really make it big (sorry, Space Invaders).
• / Mega Man 2 took a low-selling game with a novel concept and turned it into what is now considered one of the greatest games of all time, helping shape the action / platforming style we love today. Although I will say I feel that this one was more reliant on his popularity instead of his footprint.
  
• / Sonic the Hedgehog dared to challenge Nintendo's spot as the top console seller, and Sonic cemented SEGA as a true rival to Nintendo. Sonic's emphasis on speed and attitude turned the platformer genre upside down, and allowed the Genesis to actually threaten the SNES. The Console Wars of the 90's are too big of a landmark to not consider Sonic a gaming icon.
  
• / Final Fantasy VII was the big one for the PlayStation. It revitalized the JRPG, and managed to create the perfect blend of visuals, gameplay, and plot (for it's time, anyway). This game is one of the big reasons why Sony worked their way to the top, and why Final Fantasy is still as popular today.
  
• / Street Fighter II is the reason we have fighting games the way they are today. It invented the combo system, introduced a diverse cast of fighters each with unique skills, introduced us to competitive multiplayer, and started the renaissance of arcades all around the world.
• ... She was popular enough on the Smash Ballot, had two kickass games, one of which was a Nintendo exclusive with crossover content like Nintendo-themed costumes, coming from a trusted developer and a publisher that shares a long history with Nintendo? This one's a bit weird, I'll give you that.
  
• / Metal Gear Solid is another big hit for Sony. Konami's epic with a focus on cinematic storytelling, the importance of stealth versus combat, and (much like FF7) felt more like an interactive movie than a video game. And that legacy continues on in all four of it's sequels, recieving critical acclaim and turning Hideo Kojima into one of the most influential developers in gaming.

There are very few characters left who fill that "all-star" status Sakurai has mentioned before. However, there are plenty of third-party characters that are important to gaming and relevant today, just not as "historic" as their predecessors. Crash Bandicoot and Castlevania are pretty high in gaming history still, IMO, but Rayman, Bomberman and Tekken have merits as well.It really depends on the direction of the next game, whether it be SSB4 DX or a completely new Smash.

(I just really want Snake back... He was too much fun in Brawl and I want to drop cardboard boxes onto recovering Clouds / Little Macs.)

 

[Ura]

Regardless of who "deserves" it more based on "qualifications" that we as fans consider, the one that's more "likely" is the one that is more requested by default.

After that, other factors that have to do with the characters' rights (rather than "who has more games, who has more 'history', etc.) come into play.

Crash seems to have everything going for him for inclusion.

Being a gaming icon. Check
Popular request. Check
Popular in Japan. Check
Series still being alive. Check
Moveset translating in a Smash setting. Check.

Really the only thing that could hamper Crash's chances is if Activision is difficult to work with which I doubt they would do. If they had the opportunity to have Crash in Smash they would jump at it.

As far as I can tell they're pretty equal. Rayman is a really popular character all over the world and so is Crash. Though I can make assumptions that in terms of popularity Rayman for Europe? Crash for America? And equal in Japan? Not really sure but I hear that Rayman is more popular in Europe than over here and he's not unpopular here. And Japan is fond of both. I can't really definitively say one is more requested than the other...

TBH I had no idea who Rayman was pre-Omni leak. Thought he was some random indie character.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Crash in smash would be a dream come true. Crash Team racing was my second game ever, and I think the guy would fit spectacularly in smash. Sakurai and Activision might be issues (hell relevancy too depending on how a director would view N Sane trilogy) but damn he would be perfect. . .and as a side bonus we may get a few more crash games like N sane on Switch and I would take that easily.

I mean, Rayman would be super cool too, but I grew up with one and not the other so. . .

 

[Deleted member]

Crash seems to have everything going for him for inclusion.

Being a gaming icon. Check
Popular request. Check
Popular in Japan. Check
Series still being alive. Check
Moveset translating in a Smash setting. Check.

Really the only thing that could hamper Crash's chances is if Activision is difficult to work with which I doubt they would do. If they had the opportunity to have Crash in Smash they would jump at it.

I really don't think he's got "everything going for him" as you say. Not saying he has a low chance, but saying that his chance isn't as near-absolute as you make it seem.


We may know he's a "popular request", but just exactly HOW popular of a request is he? Is he Sonic/Mega Man levels where no one else comes even close? Or are there other guests that are bigger requests (not counting Snake)? We know that at least
Cloud and Bayonetta had to have been bigger requests during the time of the ballot, for example, and there were likely others that had more requests such as Bomberman.

He may be "popular in Japan", but a lot of things are popular in Japan to where the question how popular is Crash in Japan comes in in order to claim this as a major point. And even then, some series just aren't big in Japan. One of those series? Sonic. So either way, having popularity in Japan doesn't really matter.

And we know for a fact being a gaming icon is not a requirement, so that's not necessarily a strong point in his favor. Neither is his series "still being alive", which means absolutely nothing in context of his Smash odds.


EDIT: There's also one last thing to consider.
Crash's biggest obstacle for Smash isn't necessarily even himself, Activision, or Nintendo.
His biggest obstacle is any of the other possible guest fighters, veteran and newcomer alike.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I still think the SpaceWorld demo "leak" is fake.

Just saying.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I guess look at it this way...

What third party characters can Nintendo feasibly get that would cause headlines?

Snake, Rayman, Heihachi, Crash, Simon and Bomberman are the only ones that really come to mind.

Unless Steve gets in, then he blows everyone else out of the water.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I just posted this in the Snake thread but this singular thought that just randomly came to me all of a sudden made me incredibly excited for speculation again. I thought I'd share it with you guys as well.

Alright, here's something worth speculating over I suppose.

After E3 came and gone with no sure sign of Smash it's seeming more and more likely that the next Smash game to be released, the Namco branded 'Smash 6', will be a completely new, from the ground up, game. With that in mind do you guys think it'll be more likely for Snake to appear in a brand new game or in an enhanced port?

Personally I would think that it'd be more likely with an enhanced port. Thinking more on it though I'm getting the feeling a brand new game will be more in Snake's favor. A new game from the ground up will cause a lot more attention to be drawn to the game making Konami want to be in on the action this time. Renewing a contract to have Snake in it would be beneficial for both parties. This also corresponds to every single 3rd party veteran thus far. All the contracts will have to be renewed. Meaning Nintendo will have to visit Sega x2, persumably Platinum as well, Capcom, Capcom USA, Square Enix, and Namco. It would surprise me if Nintendo didn't go to Konami to do the same or vice versa. The outcry for Snake has been quite a loud one, especially after Cloud and Ryu. And hell who's to say they won't pull a Sega or Capcom and add two Konami characters? Bomberman or Simon anyone?

I'm finally getting excited for Smash speculation again after this thought and I hope you guys are too. We're less than a year out from the most probable official announcement. Next E3. So this is when anything we speculate is a possibility because, well, we know nothing.

 

[Deleted member]

I guess look at it this way...

What third party characters can Nintendo feasibly get that would cause headlines?

Snake, Rayman, Heihachi, Crash, Simon and Bomberman are the only ones that really come to mind.

Depends on what you mean by "headlines".

Because something like say, Agumon would definitely get a lot of attention, especially with the whole "you can now have Pokémon vs. Digimon in Smash" angle. Yet Digimon isn't as major of a gaming franchise as the others you listed.

Unless Steve gets in, then he blows everyone else out of the water

 

[nirvanafan]

crash being in would be a dream come true, then all i would need is banjo. as much as it pains me to say considering i want this whole space world rumor to be rule i doubt it since everything with it just sounds too good to be true.

i believe something came out recently about prime 4 and pokemon switch not coming out till after 2018 so i kind of doubt they will be ready in 2 months to properly show anything from them off although who knows, they could show us some early stuff but that is probably me just trying to remain hopeful that this is real and does not seem like something nintendo would do (i do not recall nintendo doing something like this too much but i could be wrong and it could depend on just how far the games actually are).

nintendo did bring back the nintendo world championship a couple years ago so a space world return could actually eventually happen, i just dont see this whole thing being true.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I mean, is there any point in bringing SpaceWorld back when E3 is far more important than it?

Not that I believe it.

 

[nirvanafan]

I mean, is there any point in bringing SpaceWorld back when E3 is far more important than it?

Not that I believe it.

i mean ea pulled out and does the ea play thing now right before e3, i can see nintendo doing something similar with space world although whether or not they will find it worth the risk anytime soon i really do not know. whether or not nintendo puts as much into e3 anymore is debatable and this would really appeal to a nostalgic crowd. i dont know, that is just the way i see justifying the event.

 

[Bowserlick]

Mario-possessed T. Rex would make a splash. I'm just worried he would be a Mario clone.

 

[Opossum]

Mario-possessed T. Rex would make a splash. I'm just worried he would be a Mario clone.

But he's too big.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

But he's too big.

And he has little arms.

There's not much you can do with that.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Oh, Crash is actually really huge in Japan too? I guess I only assumed he made a really big splash in Europe and NA.

Also, I think Spyro could be a hype bringer, but that only goes for if Sakura goes the Pac-Man way and uses his earlier incarnation than his current one.

 

[Deleted member]

Mario-possessed T. Rex would make a splash. I'm just worried he would be a Mario clone.

You.....don't really know how clones work, huh?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You.....don't really know how clones work, huh?

...I'm pretty sure he's just making a silly joke, mang. :/

 

[Bowserlick]

You.....don't really know how clones work, huh?

Imagine the T. Rex doing Mario's moves. Especially the forward Smash with his little splayed duo-fingered hand.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Imagine the T. Rex doing Mario's moves. Especially the forward Smash with his little splayed duo-fingered hand.

That said, clones use the same body types and animations specifically.

Similar moves exist because things like a roundhouse kick can be pretty common. Or a forward jab, etc.

Even if they tried to give him the same moveset, he couldn't work like a clone due to severe hitbox differences. He'd be more like Wolf, who really isn't a clone but still used someone as a base to create, instead of a mostly unique character, or fully unique(to clarify, characters will have similar moves just due to the kind of move it is. It happens. However, some have movies nobody else uses too. At least, for a while, due to more characters and all).

 

[MMXZero]

So about that rumor, I was wondering if anyone could post a list of some of the things that person has gotten right/wrong in the past.

I tried googling some of the things people mentioned on the last page and I found it odd that he supposedly called Super Mario Odyssey, "Super Mario Universe" since that was the rumored name of Super Mario 3D World back in 2013 and shouldn't be attributed to Odyssey.

 

[Ura]

I really don't think he's got "everything going for him" as you say. Not saying he has a low chance, but saying that his chance isn't as near-absolute as you make it seem.


We may know he's a "popular request", but just exactly HOW popular of a request is he? Is he Sonic/Mega Man levels where no one else comes even close? Or are there other guests that are bigger requests (not counting Snake)? We know that at least
Cloud and Bayonetta had to have been bigger requests during the time of the ballot, for example, and there were likely others that had more requests such as Bomberman.

He may be "popular in Japan", but a lot of things are popular in Japan to where the question how popular is Crash in Japan comes in in order to claim this as a major point. And even then, some series just aren't big in Japan. One of those series? Sonic. So either way, having popularity in Japan doesn't really matter.

And we know for a fact being a gaming icon is not a requirement, so that's not necessarily a strong point in his favor. Neither is his series "still being alive", which means absolutely nothing in context of his Smash odds.


EDIT: There's also one last thing to consider.
Crash's biggest obstacle for Smash isn't necessarily even himself, Activision, or Nintendo.
His biggest obstacle is any of the other possible guest fighters, veteran and newcomer alike.

Oh by no means did I try to make Crash sound like a "shoe-in" or anything. I'm not even expecting him to show up in the next Smash Bros game. I'm just saying that he's one of the more likelier third party characters and fits all criteria necessary for inclusion in Smash.

I think Crash has a good chance VS all the other contenders for a third party slot. Most of the most highly requested 3rd patry characters are in the game already. His toughest competition would come in the form of Snake, a Tekken character, and a Resident Evil character.

Usually a series being alive is what gets characters in the game in the first place. Maybe that applies less to third-party characters than it does first-party ones but it's still a factor somewhat.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh by no means did I try to make Crash sound like a "shoe-in" or anything. I'm not even expecting him to show up in the next Smash Bros game. I'm just saying that he's one of the more likelier third party characters and fits all criteria necessary for inclusion in Smash.

I think Crash has a good chance VS all the other contenders for a third party slot. Most of the most highly requested 3rd patry characters are in the game already. His toughest competition would come in the form of Snake, a Tekken character, and a Resident Evil character.

Usually a series being alive is what gets characters in the game in the first place. Maybe that applies less to third-party characters than it does first-party ones but it's still a factor somewhat.

I'd say Bomberman is a far bigger threat than any of the three if we're talking characters not already in Smash.

We don't know the full story behind Snake's absence to know whether or not we should even expect him to come back.
Heihachi was already considered and denied for his moves not translating well into Smash's style. This is unlikely to be different in the future.
No Resident Evil character has enough of a request to even be considered.

But I did say "veteran and newcomer alike" for a reason. I wasn't referring to just the absent Snake. I was referring to each of the six that are in Smash 4. As the roster continues to grow, even veteran guests are competition for newcomer guests and other veteran guests.
For example, Cloud coming back could mean there's no feasible way to work in Rayman and keep schedule.

 

[FUNT1MER]

One thing that should be considered is the amount of reps each Nintendo series gets. Besides wolf I find it unlikely another star fox rep would get in. ( although slippy would receive a warm welcome) So games like metroid and animal crossing are more likely to get a new rep than star fox.

One thing that should be considered is the amount of reps each Nintendo series gets. Besides wolf I find it unlikely another star fox rep would get in. ( although slippy would receive a warm welcome) So games like metroid and animal crossing are more likely to get a new rep than star fox.

Also each smash gains a retro rep. So port or no port the next smash will gain another slot of retros. Which retro is most likely in your eyes? For me it would be excitebike. As it appears on every single Nintendo console

 

[Deleted member]

How many cuts should we expect out of the next Smash game?

Unless we get a Smash 4 Deluxe, cuts are inevitable and there are plenty of veterans that could get axed from the roster for whatever reason (whenever that it third-party licensing issues, being expendable clones, game play issues (though I do not think any of Smash 4 characters have that), or being low priority). Sakurai has also talked about how with Smash 4, he's probably reached the limit on what is feasible for the roster size with Smash 3DS & Wii U. Unless he's being coy, we should not expect a large expansion of the roster like we had the past three games. It is possible, and I'd say plausible, that a new game's roster will be around the same size, if not less.

Even if the roster does expand, I expect that there will be more cuts than Brawl or Smash 4, especially if third-party deals falls through.

One thing that should be considered is the amount of reps each Nintendo series gets. Besides wolf I find it unlikely another star fox rep would get in. ( although slippy would receive a warm welcome) So games like metroid and animal crossing are more likely to get a new rep than star fox.

I don't think Nintendo weighs heavily on being egalitarian with series representation. The fact that we have six Fire Emblem characters and two DK characters shows that the people who work with the roster are not that concerned about "over-representation" or "under-representation".

Also be cautious of patterns. They are susceptible to changing so it is unwise to believe that because we've gotten a retro character in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 (and not Smash 64) that we will get one again. pre-Smash 4 had arguments that Krystal would be added because Star Fox got a character every game yet Smash 4 came and we lost Wolf.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's not that simple. Also, please don't double post.

Sakurai doesn't just look at it as "how many reps". While that can have some relevance at times, it's closer to "how can we represent the series as a whole the best". That includes things like Assist Trophies, Music, Stages, Smash Run/Adventure Mode enemies and Trophies. Metroid is a great example of this. While it has Samus twice on the roster, both are notable playable forms of her, and the other choices that are possible tend to have many reasons not in. Ridley is very difficult to balance and is known for being large and imposing. So keeping his characterization and balancing him is not easy. This means that another choice should be someone relevant and would go well. One of the Hunters(Sylux) would be a good example of an interesting choice. With the often stigma around clones, and the fact people are already annoyed we still have only Samus twice, throwing in Dark Samus is unlikely to go well(mind you, the character is no longer relevant too), despite actually being very different and wouldn't even be a clone. Having Samus in the name alone makes it a doomed idea due to the fanbase's ridiculous reactions. That said, look at how much content Metroid gained in 4. It's an outstanding increase.

You see, Smash needs to add what feels like content that can work well for the game, not just playable characters. Fire Emblem doesn't exactly have good options for Adventure Mode type enemies, or items. They have music, stages, and playable characters, and an assist trophy(well, Trophies too). But you won't see easy content in a lot of the stuff you directly play(stages, music, adventure mode(s)). This is why giving them playable characters works better than most other stuff. They have potential for great movesets and it's hard to add other gameplay content.

As for Wolf, he simply wasn't relevant at the time. His last appearance was a simple game remake, and before that a poorly received game. And when they constantly delay his next game, well, any chance he could be DLC due to being relevant again was thrown out too(if he even had a chance at DLC). Star Fox has two characters because there was no reason to add any more at the time and no games coming out within a specific timeframe during development to justify a SF character. Coupled with the fact Falco is vastly more popular, and there you go.

Basically, Sakurai doesn't look at "what series can we get more characters from?" and instead goes "what relevant series can we expand right now? Also, what fun content can also be thrown in. And finally, what retro stuff is addable?" 3rd party content can actually apply to all three of these factors, but yeah, people need to stop looking at it as solely "reps" and look at the bigger picture. There's also development costs, so if they can use assets from previous games to make the game faster, they will. This is why Uprising content is in there by the truckload. The fact he uses some ideas from Uprising for other parts of the game is more "I like reusing my ideas". Smash takes notes from his games as is. Adventure Mode's in-between fight screens are based upon a Kirby game. Smash 4's difficulty setting is based upon Uprising.

 

[Zem-raj]

What if Sakurai isn't working on Smash 6, and it's a new director? If he isn't, then chances for characters will change.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What if Sakurai isn't working on Smash 6, and it's a new director? If he isn't, then chances for characters will change.

I'd say he'd still very likely to be consulted. At least for whatever the Smash game is, including a port.

Like, it's more than easy enough to believe the next Smash in general is not made by Sakurai. But I can't see them completely ignoring his philosophies at all. A game after that, though, things can change, because under a new director, it would slowly evolve. But the original creator of the series itself isn't going to be dropped just like that. He probably will influence the series for a while even then, since it's part of a respect Japan has for many creators. There are exceptions(Konami is a horrid company in how they treated Kojima), but Nintendo more plays by this guideline.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

How many cuts should we expect out of the next Smash game?

Unless we get a Smash 4 Deluxe, cuts are inevitable and there are plenty of veterans that could get axed from the roster for whatever reason (whenever that it third-party licensing issues, being expendable clones, game play issues (though I do not think any of Smash 4 characters have that), or being low priority). Sakurai has also talked about how with Smash 4, he's probably reached the limit on what is feasible for the roster size with Smash 3DS & Wii U. Unless he's being coy, we should not expect a large expansion of the roster like we had the past three games. It is possible, and I'd say plausible, that a new game's roster will be around the same size, if not less.

Well, firstly, that's a interview from 2012. What was considered impossible isn't anymore. Things change drastically, and fast in the entertainment industry and the fact that that interview will be nearly 7 years old when the next game releases, likely 2019, means that those quotes are vastly out of date.

Even if the roster does expand, I expect that there will be more cuts than Brawl or Smash 4, especially if third-party deals falls through.I don't think Nintendo weighs heavily on being egalitarian with series representation. The fact that we have six Fire Emblem characters and two DK characters shows that the people who work with the roster are not that concerned about "over-representation" or "under-representation".

Sakurai had stated multiple times, very recently, that he didn't want any one series to be quote 'overrepresented'. He's never said anything about underrepresentation and considering Donkey Kong and Metroid both still have only 2 characters it's safe to say he isn't very worried about underrepresentation.

And on cuts... I don't think any 3rd party 'deals' will fall through. The characters we've gotten for 3rd parties have been universally praised by the company they represent, Nintendo themselves, and the fans of both Smash and the original game. I don't see any 3rd party deals falling through. The fact that Smash 4 only had 5 cut characters from Brawl almost makes your point moot. Ice Climbers were cut for technical reasons, Snake was cut due to the troubles with Konami, Ivysaur and Squirtle were cut because of the Pokémon Trainer and said gimmick being abandoned, and Wolf was cut for presumably being low priority because of his 'clone' status. That's in the process of TWO Smash games being developed at the same time. Imagine the resources that could have been better utilized it it were only one game. We may have not had ANY cuts from Brawl. Considering Falco is already a clone and Wolf is just a less cloney clone of Falco it's not hard to see why he was cut, it may suck, but it's true. Blame Falco. Just to point it out, there's love and care for every character put into Smash. That's why Roy and Mewtwo came back from Melee after being cut, or Lucas from Brawl. There's not a single character in Smash that had 0 fans.

Also be cautious of patterns. They are susceptible to changing so it is unwise to believe that because we've gotten a retro character in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4 (and not Smash 64) that we will get one again. pre-Smash 4 had arguments that Krystal would be added because Star Fox got a character every game yet Smash 4 came and we lost Wolf.

The pattern of a Retro character is nearly set in stone, though. Sakurai had stated that he feels lucky to have the chance to get characters like Ice Climbers, Pit, etc. back into the spotlight and make others familiar with them because he feels like every characters history it's special.

The Star Fox thing is bonkers I've never once heard that but, you're right. The stupidest pattern jumping I've seen was when people insisted that Ike would be cut because Roy was cut in Melee.

People try to make patterns out if nothing a lot, yeah, but every Smash game had been susceptible to a joke character and a Retro. Mr. Game & Watch and Ice Climbers, R.O.B. and Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt. I find it funny that usually the joke character revolves around one of Nintendo's other products aside from games and consoles.

What if Sakurai isn't working on Smash 6, and it's a new director? If he isn't, then chances for characters will change.

Well, he was confirmed to be working on his 'next project' shortly after DLC ended. Then we got the Smash 6 leak and the fact that it's the same team from Smash 4. It's likely it is Sakurai as director once again.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, the rumor stated that Namco-Bandai are the directors of the next Smash(since it's under their name who made it).

There's kind of zero evidence to suggest Sakurai's next project is the current Smash. Coincidental timing isn't evidence. The fairly credible rumor for Namco-Bandai has more backing to it.

I wouldn't really say it's "likely" at all. Let's also remember that Sakurai was only the director because of one person, and he's sadly no longer with us. He may be nothing more than a consultant now. Of course, being he made the series, I could totally see Sakurai's ego still trying to call it "his project" even if he's not the director. That said, we really don't know the behind the scenes. It could go honestly either way. Maybe he is the director and Namco-Bandai is his team again. Maybe he's just a consultant and his ego got the better of him again(let's be honest, he has an ego. He puts more faith into himself than most do and has a hard time letting the team do their job. He needs to be there for the balancing testing and must do it himself. He's extremely insistent on his views, which is part of why patches were fairly unlikely. He wants a game to feel completed on release, and doesn't like to change characters too much).

That said, it'll be neat to learn what his project is eventually(whether it's Smash or not). But mostly, what the next Smash will be like.

 

[Nauzgo]

For the new Smash, I could very well see them doing a Smash 4 port with some additions like cut vets, few first party reps and 1 or 2 third party deals like Rabbid. Maybe even an Adventure Mode. I think a Ubisoft character is very likely due to working so close together lately. And due to the crossover with Mario, I'd say Rabbid is more likely than Rayman. I don't care which one gets in though.

And as much as I do love Sakurai working on Smash, I loved Uprising and I hope he's able to do another game from another series or even a successor to Uprising. I'm sure Namco could handle the port though I don't know if Sakurai gave his baby completely in other hands.

 

[MMXZero]

To be fair, the rumor stated that Namco-Bandai are the directors of the next Smash(since it's under their name who made it).

There's kind of zero evidence to suggest Sakurai's next project is the current Smash. Coincidental timing isn't evidence. The fairly credible rumor for Namco-Bandai has more backing to it.

I wouldn't really say it's "likely" at all. Let's also remember that Sakurai was only the director because of one person, and he's sadly no longer with us. He may be nothing more than a consultant now. Of course, being he made the series, I could totally see Sakurai's ego still trying to call it "his project" even if he's not the director. That said, we really don't know the behind the scenes. It could go honestly either way. Maybe he is the director and Namco-Bandai is his team again. Maybe he's just a consultant and his ego got the better of him again(let's be honest, he has an ego. He puts more faith into himself than most do and has a hard time letting the team do their job. He needs to be there for the balancing testing and must do it himself. He's extremely insistent on his views, which is part of why patches were fairly unlikely. He wants a game to feel completed on release, and doesn't like to change characters too much).

That said, it'll be neat to learn what his project is eventually(whether it's Smash or not). But mostly, what the next Smash will be like.

Which rumor? So far the only credible rumor pegging Bandai Namco as the developer for Smash Bros. on Switch came from Serkan Toto back in January 2016. Every other rumor that came after essentially parroted or piggybacked his original tweets.

Plus, all of the stuff you said about Sakurai, you could say about Bandai Namco as well.

 

[Deleted member]

People try to make patterns out if nothing a lot, yeah, but every Smash game had been susceptible to a joke character and a Retro. Mr. Game & Watch and Ice Climbers, R.O.B. and Pit, and Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt. I find it funny that usually the joke character revolves around one of Nintendo's other products aside from games and consoles.

This is entirely false.
There is no pattern for "joke character" (which you are using incorrectly, by the way; Joke characters are the likes of Jigglypuff and Pichu, characters deliberately designed to be weak) nor is there a pattern for "Retro".

The ONLY existing pattern is the token surprise character that comes out of nowhere as a secret character. And it's one that Sakurai himself stated as such in the project proposal slides when he referred to Duck Hunt as "this game's surprise character".

are the token surprise characters for each of the games.
The closest one for the original would be , but I don't think Sakurai was actively going for that type of character yet.

 

[Arcadenik]

Sakurai's project is Duck Hunt Uprising. My uncle works at Nintendo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Which rumor? So far the only credible rumor pegging Bandai Namco as the developer for Smash Bros. on Switch came from Serkan Toto back in January 2016. Every other rumor that came after essentially parroted or piggybacked his original tweets.

Plus, all of the stuff you said about Sakurai, you could say about Bandai Namco as well.

Actually, you couldn't. Bandai-Namco is very different. Also, don't forget they were working under Sakurai. Of course they need to follow his philosophy.

And yes, that rumor. No other rumor has been credible in any way beyond that. It's the only one worth taking into consideration. With no way to debunk it, well...(simply put, we'll see a Smash Switch announced at some point. Even Reggie noted how the game was inevitable, which is also why this particular sub-forum exists. He basically let loose that it will be a game at some point).

 

[Zem-raj]

Well, he was confirmed to be working on his 'next project' shortly after DLC ended. Then we got the Smash 6 leak and the fact that it's the same team from Smash 4. It's likely it is Sakurai as director once again.

I'm not so sure about that, something doesn't add up.

Sakurai said that his recent toy purchase is related to his project. People saying it's related to Smash at this time is pretty straw grasping, considering the lack of details.

Smash 6's job listing mentions job roles including handling characters, stages, 3D programming, motion, game mode, mini-games, menu, UI, and more.

Two of these that pop out to me are the menu and the UI. If I remember correctly, Masahiro Sakurai's wife, Michiko, has designed the menus for Sakurai's projects since Meteos (DS, 2005). I don't see why he'd want to replace her (unless she'd be on maternity leave or left the company for some reason), and I'm pretty sure she works for Sora Ltd. The job listing was posted by Bandai Namco, I really doubt he'd allow someone in place of Michiko.
​

Sakurai hasn't gone from one Super Smash Bros. project to another since the days of Super Smash Bros. 64 and Super Smash Bros. Melee. Has has done projects in between.

According to Soma from Source Gaming, apparently Sakurai was surprised about the Nintendo Switch when he saw the Nintendo Switch presentation in January, and that it was releasing earlier than he expected. He didn't know about many of the things about the Nintendo Switch, he was kept out of the loop as it were. If he was working on a game for the Nintendo Switch, wouldn't he know at least some things about the system already? It's odd that he's surprised about it.

The reason why he had been directing for Smash for so long is because he was asked by Satoru Iwata (his friend and client) every time to do it. Sadly, Iwata is no longer with us, and Sakurai has lost his closest connection to Nintendo (since Iwata would have been the one to negotiate between Sakurai and Nintendo). Either Sakurai would have to have Kimishima or an official at Nintendo ask him to direct, or sign a contract. Iwata already said Sakurai would have been replaced for Brawl and Smash 3DS/WiiU if he'd refused.

If he's working on a new project, I don't think he'd be able to cover that and supervise for Smash 6. He struggled with two versions of Smash, so how would he cope on completely different projects? Another thing, his wife would have to cover two projects, because Sakurai tends to choose her to design the menus. Plus he had that extended vacation in 2015, after Bayonetta and Corrin were released. I doubt he'd have a break during development for Smash 6, as he tends to have small breaks after a project has been completed, then moves onto a new one. Smash 6 might have been in development since 2014 or 2015.

That's my take on this.

 

[Deleted member]

Smash 6's job listing mentions job roles including handling characters, stages, 3D programming, motion, game mode, mini-games, menu, UI, and more.

Two of these that pop out to me are the menu and the UI. If I remember correctly, Masahiro Sakurai's wife, Michiko, has designed the menus for Sakurai's projects since Meteos (DS, 2005). I don't see why he'd want to replace her (unless she'd be on maternity leave or left the company for some reason), and I'm pretty sure she works for Sora Ltd. The job listing was posted by Bandai Namco, I really doubt he'd allow someone in place of Michiko.​

​

The project was stated to be released in 2015 for Wii U and 3DS, with implications it was already being worked on as of at least April 2014 (i.e. before Smash Wii U/3DS are released) with 120 people on the job already.

Regardless of whether the ad was real or fake, I can't really take it seriously at this point in time. Especially when it apparently got taken down.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

​

The project was stated to be released in 2015 for Wii U and 3DS, with implications it was already being worked on as of at least April 2014 (i.e. before Smash Wii U/3DS are released) with 120 people on the job already.

Regardless of whether the ad was real or fake, I can't really take it seriously at this point in time. Especially when it apparently got taken down.

Agreed. At this point, it was probably just fake. Evidence doesn't hold up well.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This is entirely false.
There is no pattern for "joke character" (which you are using incorrectly, by the way; Joke characters are the likes of Jigglypuff and Pichu, characters deliberately designed to be weak)

In what possible way is Jigglypuff a joke character? I can get behind Pichu yeah, but even then it was stated that he was thrown in as a clone for the sake of the roster size. Sure, he wasn't a serious character in terms of viability but he wasn't considered a straight up joke.

And if Wii Fit Trainer isn't a joke, straight outta nowhere, character than no one is. Just because a character was seriously developed doesn't mean they weren't put in for the novelty of it. Yeah Wii Fit Trainer is an awesome, well developed character but she isn't meant to be taken as a 'hardcore fighter with the will to destroy' type character. It's funny as hell when you see her in the game. That's a joke character not a 'weak character for the sake of being weak' that makes no sense. Joke characters are meant to draw out a laugh. It's strange and funny seeing a 2-D calculator looking character beating the **** out of Mario and Link. It's funny seeing a toy-esque robot run around all awkwardly flailing it's arms and tossing discs. Their beauty in their characters is the fact they aren't meant to be taken seriously. A joke character isn't 'lol just throw them in. It'll be funny cause no one will use them'.

nor is there a pattern for "Retro".

Wait so Ice Climbers, Pit, and Duck Hunt aren't considered Retro characters? Surely you can't be serious. They are so obviously just that. Ice Climbers sole purpose of existing was that Sakurai wanted to find an old, forgotten character that could hold up a unique move set. The token Retro is one of the biggest glaring patterns in Smash's entirety. Sure 64 might not have one but that game can't really be used as an argument since that game was a literal proof a concept for the series going forward.

The ONLY existing pattern is the token surprise character that comes out of nowhere as a secret character. And it's one that Sakurai himself stated as such in the project proposal slides when he referred to Duck Hunt as "this game's surprise character".

are the token surprise characters for each of the games.
The closest one for the original would be , but I don't think Sakurai was actively going for that type of character yet.

I'm sorry, what? "This games surprise character" could mean any number of things. Just because he said that doesn't mean you gotta start scourging the other games to figure out what other characters could fit into that category. If that were the case Captain Falcon, Ness, Jigglypuff, Roy, G&W, Pichu, Mewtwo, Wolf, and so many more could fit into the category of 'Token Surprise Character'. A lot of characters are 'surprises' sure there might be a few that catch people off guard more than others and Duck Hunt might have been the one Sakurai thought would be that one but if we're taking into account of literal, pure, shock value, Wii Fit Trainer would MUCH better into those that you listed.

I get that you have differing opinions but really man, your opinion isn't gospel. Open your mind to other people's thoughts. Both of us are probably wrong and you know what, that's totally fine.