Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

In what possible way is Jigglypuff a joke character? I can get behind Pichu yeah, but even then it was stated that he was thrown in as a clone for the sake of the roster size. Sure, he wasn't a serious character in terms of viability but he wasn't considered a straight up joke.

And if Wii Fit Trainer isn't a joke, straight outta nowhere, character than no one is. Just because a character was seriously developed doesn't mean they weren't put in for the novelty of it. Yeah Wii Fit Trainer is an awesome, well developed character but she isn't meant to be taken as a 'hardcore fighter with the will to destroy' type character. It's funny as hell when you see her in the game. That's a joke character not a 'weak character for the sake of being weak' that makes no sense. Joke characters are meant to draw out a laugh. It's strange and funny seeing a 2-D calculator looking character beating the **** out of Mario and Link. It's funny seeing a toy-esque robot run around all awkwardly flailing it's arms and tossing discs. Their beauty in their characters is the fact they aren't meant to be taken seriously. A joke character isn't 'lol just throw them in. It'll be funny cause no one will use them'.

Wait so Ice Climbers, Pit, and Duck Hunt aren't considered Retro characters? Surely you can't be serious. They are so obviously just that. Ice Climbers sole purpose of existing was that Sakurai wanted to find an old, forgotten character that could hold up a unique move set. The token Retro is one of the biggest glaring patterns in Smash's entirety. Sure 64 might not have one but that game can't really be used as an argument since that game was a literal proof a concept for the series going forward.

I'm sorry, what? "This games surprise character" could mean any number of things. Just because he said that doesn't mean you gotta start scourging the other games to figure out what other characters could fit into that category. If that were the case Captain Falcon, Ness, Jigglypuff, Roy, G&W, Pichu, Mewtwo, Wolf, and so many more could fit into the category of 'Token Surprise Character'. A lot of characters are 'surprises' sure there might be a few that catch people off guard more than others and Duck Hunt might have been the one Sakurai thought would be that one but if we're taking into account of literal, pure, shock value, Wii Fit Trainer would MUCH better into those that you listed.

I get that you have differing opinions but really man, your opinion isn't gospel. Open your mind to other people's thoughts. Both of us are probably wrong and you know what, that's totally fine.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JokeCharacter

This is what a "joke character" is. A character purposely designed to be weak. This is not what Wii Fit Trainer is.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FightingClown

This is what Wii Fit Trainer is. A Fighting Clown. A character that is a "silly" fighter while designed to be on par with the rest of the cast.

Learn the difference.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai actually clears this up. He added Jigglypuff to be a Joke Character. It didn't work out that way in gameplay. That's why he made Pichu intentionally weak in Melee to make sure a true Joke Character is born.

Wii Fit Trainer isn't one either. She actually was added as a "cause he thinks she's a unique idea", not counting the fact she was relevant and sales were good. Those are smaller factors, but she's a surprise addition. She also has an entirely different playstyle anyway.

Lastly, retros aren't a pattern. Sakurai actually find retro additions something interesting to add. There were none in Smash 64 at all. They are added because they're a specific type of character he likes to look for as well. It's not really a pattern so much as a coincidence and when he could make them work.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This post was inappropriate and I apologize.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This post was inappropriate and I apologize.

I will add that Golden is going straight from Sakurai's mouth.

They aren't his opinions but Sakurai's.

As for the joke character thing. He's correct there too. Joke Character =/= Fighting Clown

Take Street Fighter 4 for example.

Rufus isn't the joke character, but he's super silly. Dan is the joke character because he's downright terrible (and we love it).

It's like the difference between and

 

[Oddball]

This is what Wii Fit Trainer is. A Fighting Clown. A character that is a "silly" fighter while designed to be on par with the rest of the cast.

Isn't at least half the games cast fighting clowns?

 

[Deleted member]

Isn't at least half the games cast fighting clowns?

I said Wii Fit Trainer was a Fighting Clown, not the Fighting Clown.

But even then, as the trope states, an example of a Fighting Clown can be a fighter who, among a wacky cast, is somehow even wackier.
Wii Fit Trainer having a fighting style based on yoga poses is certainly one of the wackiest fighting styles in the game. :V

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I will add that Golden is going straight from Sakurai's mouth.

They aren't his opinions but Sakurai's.

As for the joke character thing. He's correct there too. Joke Character =/= Fighting Clown

Take Street Fighter 4 for example.

Rufus isn't the joke character, but he's super silly. Dan is the joke character because he's downright terrible (and we love it).

It's like the difference between and

My point in the original post was that Smash isn't a typical fighting game. And yeah maybe I used the incorrect terminology for the point I was trying to pass but I still stand by my thoughts on the matter. And if his thoughts were from Sakurai's mouth as you say, then I have never seen such quotes.

Anyways, I feel enough like a prick already so I think I'm just gonna flack on outta here.

Maybe when things IRL are going a little better I'll hop back in here but for now, peace out girl scouts.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

My point in the original post was that Smash isn't a typical fighting game. And yeah maybe I used the incorrect terminology for the point I was trying to pass but I still stand by my thoughts on the matter. And if his thoughts were from Sakurai's mouth as you say, then I have never seen such quotes.

Anyways, I feel enough like a prick already so I think I'm just gonna flack on outta here.

Maybe when things IRL are going a little better I'll hop back in here but for now, peace out girl scouts.

I hope things go better for you soon.

That said @GoldenYuiitusin can you find the quotes?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My point in the original post was that Smash isn't a typical fighting game. And yeah maybe I used the incorrect terminology for the point I was trying to pass but I still stand by my thoughts on the matter. And if his thoughts were from Sakurai's mouth as you say, then I have never seen such quotes.

Anyways, I feel enough like a prick already so I think I'm just gonna flack on outta here.

Maybe when things IRL are going a little better I'll hop back in here but for now, peace out girl scouts.

Hope things go better for you soon.

 

[Deleted member]

I hope things go better for you soon.

That said @GoldenYuiitusin can you find the quotes?

In this Smash, the honour of being the weakest is bestowed to Pichu.
Compared to Jigglypuff, who was technically the weakest character last time but was quite potent in the right hands, Pichu has the physical weakness of shocking itself and taking damage when performing attacks that involve electricity.
Its weight is the lightest among all characters too, and overall its attacks are not powerful, either.

To put it the other way, if you can win with this character, you’ll look really cool.
If you see some brave warrior using this character in high level tournament matches, please applaud for them.

In the last game, Jigglypuff was designed to be the weakest character.
(But even so, it could be rather powerful depending on one’s playstyle)

But this time around, since Pichu has taken over the role of ‘intrinsically weak character’, Jigglypuff was re-designed a little bit.

There's also the fact that Pichu's trophies in Melee refer to it being "the top in the class of weakness" and "best suited for handicapped matches".

And Jigglypuff's page on the original Smash 64 website talks about the weakness as well, but I don't have a clean translation.
Though it's mentioned it's best used for handicapped matches or matches where you don't care about winning or losing.

 

[Zerp]

There's also the fact that Pichu's trophies in Melee refer to it being "the top in the class of weakness" and "best suited for handicapped matches".

And Jigglypuff's page on the original Smash 64 website talks about the weakness as well, but I don't have a clean translation.
Though it's mentioned it's best used for handicapped matches or matches where you don't care about winning or losing.

Just putting these here so people don't assume you're just making those up.
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1225/index.html
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1211/index.html

 

[FUNT1MER]

Rumour is that Sakurai is creating another revival of a long dead series the same way he did for kid icarus. My bet is it'll be a new ice climber game that is similar to the donkey Kong style of platforming. What do you guys think he is gonna bring back from the dead?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rumour is that Sakurai is creating another revival of a long dead series the same way he did for kid icarus. My bet is it'll be a new ice climber game that is similar to the donkey Kong style of platforming. What do you guys think he is gonna bring back from the dead?

You can report your own post for double posting and it'll be taken down with no consequences, just be careful

 

[N3ON]

Not to backseat mod but it's also not particularly topical to this thread.

And fwiw I'm pretty sure those "rumors" are just people pulling stuff out of the air. Literally all we've heard is Sakurai working on a new project. Another revival would be neat though, Uprising was great.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hey, I'll take a revival of Quest 64.

Joking aside, yeah, there's no rumors out there about it with any credibility. He's working a new project. That's all we know. Hell, the only Smash rumor doesn't even involve Sakurai. I mean, Sakurai is important to Smash in his own way, but many are trying to act like it has to be Smash he's working on where there's no way to tell.

But it's been gone over. Iwata's death does matter for business and development here. Again, it's a sad fact, but it has to be taken into account. That said, I do wish we had better reasons to talk about Iwata than using him as something against Sakurai in an argument. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Can't be Ice Climber, anyway.
Sakurai's project has something to do with a gun since he's using the gun off a mech figure as a reference for something.

We finally getting Mach Rider Unchained, then?

 

[Zem-raj]

Agreed. At this point, it was probably just fake. Evidence doesn't hold up well.

The job listing was posted by Tatsuya Matsumura, who has kept all of the other job listings that he had posted on the website. The guy seems reputable, it seems odd for someone like that to post a fake job listing out of the blue. The siliconera article states that "upon further research, Matsumura appears to have been in the business of a career consultant to connect developers and software companies with programmers and engineers since 2011. He currently specializes in getting people in touch with gaming and software developers, and has successfully helped the recruitment of over 2,000 people thus far". I think the listing was real, but it was posted too early, had some wrong information on it, and Nintendo probably requested for it to be pulled down.

Hey, I'll take a revival of Quest 64.

Joking aside, yeah, there's no rumors out there about it with any credibility. He's working a new project. That's all we know. Hell, the only Smash rumor doesn't even involve Sakurai. I mean, Sakurai is important to Smash in his own way, but many are trying to act like it has to be Smash he's working on where there's no way to tell.

But it's been gone over. Iwata's death does matter for business and development here. Again, it's a sad fact, but it has to be taken into account. That said, I do wish we had better reasons to talk about Iwata than using him as something against Sakurai in an argument. :/

Well... As I previously stated, Sakurai did say his recent toy purchase was related to his project. This isn't a rumour, it's straight from the man's mouth.

 

[Deleted member]

To bring a new topic, we can all agree that, after the Pokémon bias in Smash 64, the Zelda bias in Melee, the Kirby and Star Fox biases in Brawl, and the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus biases in Smash 4, the DK, Metroid and Xenoblade biases need to be the next to happen, right?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To bring a new topic, we can all agree that, after the Pokémon bias in Smash 64, the Zelda bias in Melee, the Kirby and Star Fox biases in Brawl, and the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus biases in Smash 4, the DK, Metroid and Xenoblade biases need to be the next to happen, right?

If you mean by "Star Fox bias" a last minute semi-clone then yeah DK could use some "bias"
This is the worst misuse of the word "bias" I've seen though I might he biased

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The job listing was posted by Tatsuya Matsumura, who has kept all of the other job listings that he had posted on the website. The guy seems reputable, it seems odd for someone like that to post a fake job listing out of the blue. The siliconera article states that "upon further research, Matsumura appears to have been in the business of a career consultant to connect developers and software companies with programmers and engineers since 2011. He currently specializes in getting people in touch with gaming and software developers, and has successfully helped the recruitment of over 2,000 people thus far". I think the listing was real, but it was posted too early, had some wrong information on it, and Nintendo probably requested for it to be pulled down.

Fair point. Makes sense.

Well... As I previously stated, Sakurai did say his recent toy purchase was related to his project. This isn't a rumour, it's straight from the man's mouth.

True, but that doesn't explain much of anything. I'm talking about there is no evidence that it's related to Smash. I very poorly worded that. Kind of late last night. >.<

 

[FUNT1MER]

Not more amibo spinoff's!!!

 

[Deleted member]

Not more amibo spinoff's!!!

Not the right thread to talk about that either.

 

[Diddy Kong]

To bring a new topic, we can all agree that, after the Pokémon bias in Smash 64, the Zelda bias in Melee, the Kirby and Star Fox biases in Brawl, and the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus biases in Smash 4, the DK, Metroid and Xenoblade biases need to be the next to happen, right?

There was never really a Star Fox bias. Wolf was a sensible newcomer who shouldn't have been cut in the first place.

However, from all the series you mentoined I think Xenoblade is the most likely franchise to get a new character with Rex. DKC and Metroid.. am not yet too convinced unfortunately. Even though K.Rool, Dixie, Sylux and a Federation Trooper would make sense as newcomers, am still very doubtful.

 

[N3ON]

More often than not the "bias" comes about due to clones inflating the series' count. If you remove clones (or characters based on/using elements from existing characters) from that list of biases, it looks pretty different. So if you want to predict which series will succumb to "bias", maybe guess who might get clones going forward.

 

[Arcadenik]

Can't be Ice Climber, anyway.
Sakurai's project has something to do with a gun since he's using the gun off a mech figure as a reference for something.

We finally getting Mach Rider Unchained, then?

It could be a new BattleClash game.

 

[Deleted member]

It could be a new BattleClash game.

Nah.

Sakurai is specifically using the gun of the mech toy for reference, not the mech itself. :V

 

[Arcadenik]

Nah.

Sakurai is specifically using the gun of the mech toy for reference, not the mech itself. :V

Aww boo.

It could be Kid Icarus Uprising 2.

 

[Deleted member]

Aww boo.

It could be Kid Icarus Uprising 2.

Hasn't been 25 years yet.

 

[Diddy Kong]

More often than not the "bias" comes about due to clones inflating the series' count. If you remove clones (or characters based on/using elements from existing characters) from that list of biases, it looks pretty different. So if you want to predict which series will succumb to "bias", maybe guess who might get clones going forward.

Maybe just maybe we'd get a 'DKC bias' if they make Dixie a semi-clone or use elements from Diddy's moveset to make her. I daresay that even King K.Rool can use elements from Bowser to make him a fighter true to his roots. Hell, even a semi-cloned moveset would work, seeing how Bowser is now doing wrestling moves and stuff. Dead serious here. I'd take something over nothing every day of the week.

I also have nothing against clones whatsoever. I think is cute nowadays.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There was never a Star Fox bias either. Wolf was actually made last minute for Brawl because he was easy to do. He always was easy to chop if his relevance dropped. He didn't have Falco's popularity. He was cut because he had no new games coming out at all, thus, was irrelevant to Smash at the time.

This isn't bias. This is normal procedures for choosing characters. Lucas is cut for the same reason.

Some characters are beyond vastly too popular to cut, even if irrelevant(Falco, Ike, Jigglypuff). That's normal. Sakurai isn't being biased so much as trying to appeal to as many fans as people, but also knows that cuts are normal and while he tries to avoid them, he only has so much development time to use. Think of it as "priority". Wolf was low priority.

 

[_Sheik]

I guess look at it this way...

What third party characters can Nintendo feasibly get that would cause headlines?

Snake, Rayman, Heihachi, Crash, Simon and Bomberman are the only ones that really come to mind.

Unless Steve gets in, then he blows everyone else out of the water.

Also, Sora?

 

[Deleted member]

Also, Sora?

"Can feasibly get".

I'd imagine Disney would be harder to negotiate with.

 

[APC99]

To bring a new topic, we can all agree that, after the Pokémon bias in Smash 64, the Zelda bias in Melee, the Kirby and Star Fox biases in Brawl, and the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus biases in Smash 4, the DK, Metroid and Xenoblade biases need to be the next to happen, right?

Alright, I'll bite and say that this whole bias thing isn't really as big of a deal as you're saying it is:

• In Smash 64, Pikachu was part of the initial plan, and Jigglypuff was added using Kirby as a base, due to her similar body shape and popularity in the Pokemon anime. She and the other three unlockable characters have always been considered later additions due to the amount of moves they share with other characters.
• In Melee, the plan was Zelda / Sheik and Link. That's it. Young Link was a last-minute clone to help broaden the roster, and Ganon was popular enough to make it in extremely last-minute as a Falcon clone (thanks to having a model from Spaceworld's Zelda demo and a similar structure to Cpt. Falcon).
• In Brawl, Kirby added King Dedede and Meta Knight, two of the most popular requested characters for Smash. Dedede has been considered since the beginning, and Meta Knight has always been a popular Kirby character. With Star Fox, they kept the two characters from Melee, and added Wolf last-minute.
• In Smash 4, Kid Icarus only had Pit / Palutena, and FE had Marth / Ike / Robin. Lucina and Dark Pit were last-minute clones using already-existing assets. Even the Smash Run enemies were ported from Uprising just because it was easy enough to do, in order to add more variety. As for DLC, Roy was the most popular Melee vet left (only other options were Pichu and Young Link), and was chosen specifically to fill the role of Melee veteran. Corrin was chosen to promote one of Nintendo's latest games, and he had potential for a unique kit.

This whole "biased Sakurai" crap needs to end when it comes to character selection. Now, the fact we haven't had a stage from a Kirby game released after 2001? I can understand that being biased. But at no point would I say that the roster is biased. The best way to build a roster like Smash is to take iconic, unique and relevant characters from every corner and put them together.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This actually brings up one thing I'd like to discuss.

and have custom moves that are based on specials from and . And while was lucky enough to return, Wolf didn't.

My question is... If they had time to make custom moves based on Wolf and Lucas....

How early were Wolf and Lucas cut?

 

[APC99]

This actually brings up one thing I'd like to discuss.

and have custom moves that are based on specials from and . And while was lucky enough to return, Wolf didn't.

My question is... If they had time to make custom moves based on Wolf and Lucas....

How early were Wolf and Lucas cut?

I honestly think a lot of the custom moves were afterthoughts. There are very few which actually stand out to me as "Hey! This is actually something unique!". I mean, Palutena / Miis were designed around them, and Mega Man has a bunch of unique ones, but the rest are essentially retoolings of their current moves with some different effects.

Wolf and Lucas probably were in initial plans, but were scrapped due to time and their moves were put as customs for Fox / Ness. Lucas was just lucky enough to be the popular Brawl vet. I could've sworn Sakurai said that all characters from Brawl were planned at the start, but there were no promises on there being no cuts. So, from what I can infer, here's my guesses on cuts / returning vets:

• Konami was Konami and pulled Snake from the game, or Sakurai and co. couldn't get the rights to get him back.
• With the limitations of 3DS, transformations were impossible, and without it, Pokemon Trainer would've had to been split into three. Instead, they took the most popular of the trio, Charizard, and fleshed him out instead.
• Same limitations kept Ice Climbers from coming back.
• Lucas / Wolf probably got the farthest, but were scrapped for time because their specials could be given to Ness / Fox instead. Falco had priority over Wolf due to being in Smash longer.
• Young Link / Pichu weren't ever planned. I'd bet on it.
• Roy and Lucas made it back as DLC through the skin of their teeth, just because they were popular enough.
• Mewtwo was one of the most popular requested characters, but wasn't in the initial plans, so they made him their first DLC fighter.

 

[Opossum]

This actually brings up one thing I'd like to discuss.

and have custom moves that are based on specials from and . And while was lucky enough to return, Wolf didn't.

My question is... If they had time to make custom moves based on Wolf and Lucas....

How early were Wolf and Lucas cut?

If we take the Gematsu leak into consideration, I'd say Lucas was cut very early on. It mentioned they chose Ness over him, and we know that was an early list of things.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If we take the Gematsu leak into consideration, I'd say Lucas was cut very early on. It mentioned they chose Ness over him, and we know that was an early list of things.

If that is true, then what about Wolf?

 

[Deleted member]

If that is true, then what about Wolf?

Honestly, considering the circumstances on Wolf's addition to Brawl, he may not have even been planned.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, didn't we have the files that showed Wolf from the 3DS? He was planned, but I do think him being cut early is highly possible. We knew he was last minute and never super high priority. He also fits with the "characters being cut due to no games coming out" factor(IC's did not, well, at least may not have, as they were cited as development issues specifically).

We actually did hack out tons of files. The stage bosses were intended for the 3DS or Smash Run(Ridley and Metal Face), and we saw a lot of files. I forget exactly where we got the files from, but it did have a ton of Brawl coding too. From what I understand, he uses the old game as a base, which means anything from the previous game is often pre-planned to potentially get in, but that's a theory based upon the coding's usage.

Much like it's a theory that Jigglypuff was low priority due to the order of the files in Brawl. I think it was cited she was low priority and nearly cut, but the coding itself was only a reasonable guess, as it assumed the "order of development". We already knew that Sonic getting in changed development, which means cuts to planned characters happened. It's not clear it was a strict order of development, but it's not a bad guess either.

 

[Curious Villager]

Actually, didn't we have the files that showed Wolf from the 3DS? He was planned, but I do think him being cut early is highly possible. We knew he was last minute and never super high priority. He also fits with the "characters being cut due to no games coming out" factor(IC's did not, well, at least may not have, as they were cited as development issues specifically).

We actually did hack out tons of files. The stage bosses were intended for the 3DS or Smash Run(Ridley and Metal Face), and we saw a lot of files. I forget exactly where we got the files from, but it did have a ton of Brawl coding too. From what I understand, he uses the old game as a base, which means anything from the previous game is often pre-planned to potentially get in, but that's a theory based upon the coding's usage.

Much like it's a theory that Jigglypuff was low priority due to the order of the files in Brawl. I think it was cited she was low priority and nearly cut, but the coding itself was only a reasonable guess, as it assumed the "order of development". We already knew that Sonic getting in changed development, which means cuts to planned characters happened. It's not clear it was a strict order of development, but it's not a bad guess either.

You mean those files that had names like Snake, Squirtle and all the other Brawl character names in them? Weren't they just leftover files from Brawl?

I think they use the previous game assets as a base in order to speed up development as new assets are made for the new game. Hence the Brawl capsule during the Villager showcase and the Brawl Lucario and Diddy Kong battle portraits during one of the Smash Direct's etc. I could be wrong though....