Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Even then you could still find more than 10 plausible characters not counting Splatoon and ARMS.

Not saying otherwise.

Just that people's views on who is "plausible" tend to differ.....
Take Zebei's list for example. A good number of those I actually don't find plausible for various reasons and past games. Not "impossible", but not plausible, either.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Whats the general consensus around here(if any) about what type of game we are getting for Switch? An enhanced port of 3DU, a brand new game built from the ground up, or brand new game built off of the Wii U's engine?

For a while I assumed we would be getting Smash 3DU Switch, just to get a Smash game out as quick as possible so the Switch can start with a ton of momentum. If that ever was the case I feel like the heads at Nintendo as well as Sakurai reevaluated the situation and realized the Switch doesn't need Smash this early. With no sinking ships to keep afloat the Smash team has time create this game at their leisure so to speak.

What ever we get I'm certain they are going to build off of the engine from the Wii U version.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Whats the general consensus around here(if any) about what type of game we are getting for Switch? An enhanced port of 3DU, a brand new game built from the ground up, or brand new game built off of the Wii U's engine?

For a while I assumed we would be getting Smash 3DU Switch, just to get a Smash game out as quick as possible so the Switch can start with a ton of momentum. If that ever was the case I feel like the heads at Nintendo as well as Sakurai reevaluated the situation and realized the Switch doesn't need Smash this early. With no sinking ships to keep afloat the Smash team has time create this game at their leisure so to speak.

What ever we get I'm certain they are going to build off of the engine from the Wii U version.

I absolutely expect it based on the Wii U version. I don't think they'll do the engine from the ground up again, and I don't think Sakurai is working on it (other than an advisory role if that). But its not going to be a mere port, its going to be a new iteration of Smash, just less focus on reinventing the gameplay and more on adding fan requests and keeping as many existing characters as possible (probably bringing back past characters who were cut, and trying not to cut many third-parties, if any).


I also think Nintendo's going to start pulling from popular characters who may not seem "relevant" today, just because they are running out of "relevant" characters to choose from. Constantly adding more third-parties is expensive. I think we'll see a fair amount of characters from the Smash ballot whether they're "relevant" or not. (Yes, that includes K. Rool. I'd frankly be shocked if he's not in it this time, whether he gets added to a new DK before it or not--which I think will also happen. And yes, this is an unpopular opinion, even among K. Rool fans, and I frankly don't care.)



And tbh, I DON'T think it'll have ARMS characters in it. Everyone thought the same would happen for Splatoon. However, due to the timing, it is probably more likely we get ARMS characters than it was the case with Splatoon. But ARMS, despite selling decently well, hasn't really remained as popular as Splatoon did, so that's a potential negative factor. Maybe they can reinvigorate it a bit by announcing new content. I really think what ARMS needs most is a Story Mode.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

. But ARMS, despite selling decently well, hasn't really remained as popular as Splatoon did

It doesn't have to be a megaton like Splatoon.

It just has to be a success.

And ARMS was.

It got good reviews.

In less than 2 weeks, it sold a million.

It's a pretty big accomplishment bro.

The fact that it might not be an evergreen title doesn't mean much. Most series in Smash aren't.

 

[Deleted member]

Name me 10 potential newcomers, not counting Inklings and ARMS character.

Bite time baby:

1. Paper Mario
2. King K. Rool
3. Dixie Kong
4. New Alola or Gen 8 Pokémon
5. New Fire Emblem character Black Shadow
   
6. Elma
7. Rex & Pyra
   
8. Takamaru
9. Isaac
10. A Rhythm Heaven character

Whats the general consensus around here(if any) about what type of game we are getting for Switch? An enhanced port of 3DU, a brand new game built from the ground up, or brand new game built off of the Wii U's engine?

For a while I assumed we would be getting Smash 3DU Switch, just to get a Smash game out as quick as possible so the Switch can start with a ton of momentum. If that ever was the case I feel like the heads at Nintendo as well as Sakurai reevaluated the situation and realized the Switch doesn't need Smash this early. With no sinking ships to keep afloat the Smash team has time create this game at their leisure so to speak.

What ever we get I'm certain they are going to build off of the engine from the Wii U version.

What I thought recently is we might probably get a Splatoon 2 situation, as to know a sort of half-port half-new game by mainly upgrading the engine used for Smash 4.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The fact y'all are forgetting Captain Toad already means your minds got really scrambled from this "timing" thing.

 

[Opossum]

Ten plausible non-Inkling, Spring Man, or third party characters? Let's go.

Captain Toad
Dixie Kong
Decidueye/Incineroar/Lycanroc/Gen VIII Pokémon
Isabelle
Takamaru
Rex and Pyra
Chorus Kids/Rhythm Heaven character
FE Switch character
Sylux, possibly
Impa

All of which have decent to good odds of getting in, IMO.

 

[JaidynReiman]

It doesn't have to be a megaton like Splatoon.

It just has to be a success.

And ARMS was.

It got good reviews.

In less than 2 weeks, it sold a million.

It's a pretty big accomplishment bro.

The fact that it might not be an evergreen title doesn't mean much. Most series in Smash aren't.

You're focusing on that when it was an insanely small part of the argument I even negated shortly thereafter.


The bigger factor is that Splatoon was a massive success and STILL didn't get into Smash by the time even DLC rolled around. If Smash on Switch releases in 2019 or later, then I can see ARMS getting in initially. But I'd argue we're more likely to get Smash on Switch next year. Its not going to be rushed out to be in the first year, but I totally see it out by next year. And that early I don't see ARMS getting in by the initial roster.

 

[Opossum]

You're focusing on that when it was an insanely small part of the argument I even negated shortly thereafter.


The bigger factor is that Splatoon was a massive success and STILL didn't get into Smash by the time even DLC rolled around. If Smash on Switch releases in 2019 or later, then I can see ARMS getting in initially. But I'd argue we're more likely to get Smash on Switch next year. Its not going to be rushed out to be in the first year, but I totally see it out by next year. And that early I don't see ARMS getting in by the initial roster.

We don't know most of the behind the scenes situation as far as Splatoon content. For all we know, they couldn't get Inklings to work on the 3DS because the ink mechanic was too intensive for what they planned, or they knew they could save them for a sequel (since we knew about "NX" by then) and they'd act as a headliner.

To say that them not getting in despite their success dooms ARMS from getting content is jumping to conclusions, IMO. The situations are very different.

 

[Deleted member]

Black Shadow

Don't remind me of things that will never be. ;_;

(EDIT: Oh God, I now can't unsee the brighter white circles being his irises while he's making cross-eyes....)

I was the one who ran the Black Shadow thread during Smash speculation

I also ran the Dark Pit thread and I got a bittersweet victory there :V

 

[Oddball]

Ten plausible non-Inkling, Spring Man, or third party characters? Let's go.

Toad
Impa
Krystal
Ayumi Tachibana
Mach Rider
Ray (Custom Robo)
Ganon
Urban Champion
Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents
Andy (Nintendo Wars series)

 

[Deleted member]

....none of those are really plausible at this point in time.....

An argument might be able to be made for Mach Rider considering Sakurai expressed interest in him/her being in Smash and hasn't given any relevant reason for dismissal that we know of like with Urban Champion (doesn't have enough potential) or Ayumi (no presence outside of Japan), but at the same time....the fact Mach Rider hadn't been included by now despite being a character Sakurai himself wanted to see in Smash back before Melee makes the idea rather questionable.

EDIT: Which means (because I'm a dum-dum) that Mach Rider isn't "plausible" either, as plausible means that Mach Rider would be likely, which isn't the case if the idea is questionable. :V

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Plausible lists without the obvious? This one might sound too safe.

1. New Fire Emblem Lord
2. Pyra/Rex
3. Takamaru
4. Isabelle
5. New Pokemon
6. Rhythm Heaven Character
7. Captain Toad
8. Sylux
9. Qbby
10. A new Kirby character

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The bigger factor is that Splatoon was a massive success and STILL didn't get into Smash by the time even DLC rolled around. If Smash on Switch releases in 2019 or later, then I can see ARMS getting in initially. But I'd argue we're more likely to get Smash on Switch next year. Its not going to be rushed out to be in the first year, but I totally see it out by next year. And that early I don't see ARMS getting in by the initial roster.

Splatoon didn't get into Smash 4 DLC because it didn't fit any of the criteria for characters they wanted.
: Most Popular Character Request
: Brawl Vet
: Melee Vet
: Big Surprise Third Party Character
: Big Surprise Third Party Character
: Advertisement for a game that released specifically in early 2016 (only competition was someone from Xenoblade Chronicles X)
: Ballot Winner

Splatoon content just didn't fit into the plan.

In a new game with different criteria. Both Splatoon and ARMS fit the bill beautifully.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It doesn't have to be a megaton like Splatoon.

It just has to be a success.

And ARMS was.

It got good reviews.

In less than 2 weeks, it sold a million.

It's a pretty big accomplishment bro.

The fact that it might not be an evergreen title doesn't mean much. Most series in Smash aren't.

Okay good. Now they just have to give more promotion to Twinella and am happy. Spring Man and Ribbon Girl look far too boring and generic for my taste.

 

[Nauzgo]

1. Captain Toad / Pauline
2. Kamek / Poochy
3. Impa
4. Bandana Dee
5. Alph
6. Sylux (MP4 character)
7. Rhythm Heaven rep
8. Pyra / Rex
9. DK Jr.
10. Takamaru / Mach Rider

not even counting Pokemon and Fire Emblem, I think these ones are plausible along with Rabbid, Inkling and Spring Man.

 

[Ura]

Ten plausible non-Inkling, Spring Man, or third party characters? Let's go.

Captain Toad
Dixie Kong
Decidueye/Incineroar/Lycanroc/Gen VIII Pokémon
Isabelle
Takamaru
Rex and Pyra
Chorus Kids/Rhythm Heaven character
FE Switch character
Sylux, possibly
Impa

All of which have decent to good odds of getting in, IMO.

K. Rool
Dixie
Gen 7 PKMN
Isaac
Andy
Takamaru
Metroid character
Framblam character
Animal Crossing character
Rhythm Heaven character

....none of those are really plausible at this point in time.....

I know...

 

[N3ON]

It's easy to make lists of plausible inclusions if you conflate it with possible inclusions.

Splatoon didn't get into Smash 4 DLC because it didn't fit any of the criteria for characters they wanted.
: Most Popular Character Request
: Brawl Vet
: Melee Vet
: Big Surprise Third Party Character
: Big Surprise Third Party Character
: Advertisement for a game that released specifically in early 2016 (only competition was someone from Xenoblade Chronicles X)
: Ballot Winner

Splatoon content just didn't fit into the plan.

In a new game with different criteria. Both Splatoon and ARMS fit the bill beautifully.

You're working backwards from what we got and finding the justification for each, it wasn't like this was the criteria set from the get go. Especially given that the ultimate volume of DLC seemed to exist based on its own momentum, I believe this is an underestimation of how flexible some these "slots" were.

If Nintendo had wanted Inklings in there, they'd be there. There were no "rules" to which Nintendo was so beholden the Inklings would've been precluded from inclusion. It's not like had Splatoon been released in 2016 instead of 2015 they would've been there. I have to imagine they were saved for a future Smash title when they could headline the roster. Or at least exist in a capacity greater than tail-end additional content.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You're working backwards from what we got and finding the justification for each, it wasn't like this was the criteria set from the get go.

Actually I'm going from some interviews and other things.

Mewtwo was blatantly said to be a test for DLC because they knew he was popular.

Lucas and Roy almost constantly get referenced as veteran fighters from their respective games.

Ryu and Cloud were just popular picks Sakurai knew would be a big deal.

Corrin was chosen to advertise a particular timeframe. If the criteria wasn't set up from the get go, Sakurai wouldn't have thought Corrin wasn't the best choice.

Bayo is obviously the ballot winner.


I do feel characters were chosen by the roles they could play.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

The 10 best potential Smash newcomers
1. K. Rool
2. Dixie Kong
3. Cranky Kong
4. Funky Kong
5. Kiddy Kong
6. Lanky Kong
7. Tiny Kong
8. Chunky Kong
9. Donkey Kong Jr.
10. Pauline

 

[Staarih]

Glad to see Isabelle in some of those lists, quite many seem to be sleeping on her chances to be in Smash. Sure, she may not "fit" per say, being calm, cute and child-friendly, but she's popular and recognizable, and Animal Crossing is big. I honestly kind of see it happening at some point. Whenever the next AC game comes out, be it mobile or console, she'll definitely be there reminding us of her presence haha.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally would not be okay to see a character like Isabelle getting punched, kicked, sliced, shot, crushed, burnt, frozen, impaled, etc.

It works for / as they are super-deformed human beings, and with as it is seen as a cartoon-like animal, but with a chibi-like animal? I don't feel it.

Not to mention she's a shih-tzu, the most precious, innocent and cherishable living being in the world.

 

[Opossum]

I personally would not be okay to see a character like Isabelle getting punched, kicked, sliced, shot, crushed, burnt, frozen, impaled, etc.

It works for / as they are super-deformed human beings, and with as it is seen as a cartoon-like animal, but with a chibi-like animal? I don't feel it.

Not to mention she's a shih-tzu, the most precious, innocent and cherishable living being in the world.

Couldn't everything but the shih-tzu part be said for something like Jigglypuff? Yeah, Jigglypuff's games actually involve combat, but she's largely weak even in her own series, is a pink, round ball of cute, and legitimately cries when hit by a strong attack in her animations.

But, like Isabelle, Jigglypuff is stylized enough so that it doesn't matter, I don't think it's a legitimate point against her.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Not sleeping on her chances, but I'm just not very excited about the prospect

 

[ssbashworld]

There is potential for a new animal crossing rep and the series does seem popular enough to justify it but i dont see it in the next installment for some reason maybe as DLC. Tom Nook seems possible too but Isabelle has seemed a bit more popular lately. I can see a moveset maybe based on placing and using furniture items and maybr public works projects.

 

[Deleted member]

I just can't see Isabelle being added as anything but a returning Assist.

Popularity means jack-all if the character doesn't "dance" well. Just look at poor Chrom.

 

[PeridotGX]

I think Isabelle (Or any AC character )would most likely be a last minuite Villager Semi-Clone (More like , not ). I wouldnt mind being wrong though. Just AC used most of it's material on .

 

[Deleted member]

I would also mention we likely would see complaints from PETA and such if a character like Isabelle or Tom Nook is added as a fighter.

Look at what happened with the kangaroo one in the latest Tekken.

 

[Deleted member]

I would also mention we likely would see complaints from PETA and such if a character like Isabelle or Tom Nook is added as a fighter.

Look at what happened with the kangaroo one in the latest Tekken.

To be fair, PETA has targeted Nintendo on a lot of bull**** to the point they shouldn't be taken seriously.

The only time a concern may be legitimate would be like if the Nintendogs were fighters. Because beating up photorealistic puppers is a wee bit too far.


EDIT: Though if we want to go with an Animal Crossing character that would make for a good fighter in Smash and wouldn't raise any animal activist stink....there's only one option.

Who can complain about a hot-blooded, verbally abusive mole with a pick? He almost literally screams "I'M GONNA KICK YOUR ASS!" :V

....wait, no. Then we'd get complaints about how he's "too scary" for kids. :V

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Personally I find that the Villager is good enough. All the other Animal Crossing characters can always hope to have Assist Trophy roles or stage cameos. And it should also be noted that Tom Nook is part of the Villager's Final Smash.

 

[Opossum]

I just don't think Isabelle's situation is the same as Chrom's. Chrom was, and still is, an important character in Fire Emblem, but at the end of the day he was one of many important characters, due to the nature of the series. Not to mention possible redundancy from within his own series (which I still disagree with but for the sake of focus I won't get into it lol).

Isabelle is the face of one of Nintendo's most prominent series, and a series which only has one character in Smash. I just can't see Animal Crossing being kept at one character due to its sheer size and wealth of popular characters. There's enough to work with in Animal Crossing itself to make at least one other Moveset. Isabelle, for example, could utilize a Phoenix Wright styled Moveset of comical fighting (her tripping while carrying a stack of papers, her hitting people with a clipboard, that kind of thing), have a gimmick based around terraforming by enacting ordinances and setting up public works projects on the stage (all of which would have additional effects), and maybe use party poppers and fishing rods, or other Animal Crossing things that Villager doesn't use, to fill in the blanks.

Going by how big series are, I'd say Animal Crossing is honestly Smash's most underrepresented series in terms of roster count. Granted, this is due to how late it got added into Smash, but I still feel having only Villager is far from "good enough," and I'm not even a fan of Animal Crossing.

 

[Curious Villager]

This is a franchise where you can beat up women, children and animals in a cartoony fashion without anyone raising any stink over it. Unless it was a realistic looking animal such as a Nintendog, I don't think a character like Isabelle would raise much controversy, at least not any more than any other character already in the games.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some game out there where you could beat up a character like Hello Kitty in some way, being in some kind of Mario Kart knock off or otherwise.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

DK is more underrepresented than AC because it is about 60x more important

I'm not opposed to more AC characters, but how much more can you draw from the series that Villager doesn't already do?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I would also mention we likely would see complaints from PETA and such if a character like Isabelle or Tom Nook is added as a fighter.

Look at what happened with the kangaroo one in the latest Tekken.

PETA also said that drinking milk is sexist despite PETA implying women are lesser than animals. I don't think they matter

 

[Swamp Sensei]

but how much more can you draw from the series that Villager doesn't already do?

here's enough to work with in Animal Crossing itself to make at least one other Moveset. Isabelle, for example, could utilize a Phoenix Wright styled Moveset of comical fighting (her tripping while carrying a stack of papers, her hitting people with a clipboard, that kind of thing), have a gimmick based around terraforming by enacting ordinances and setting up public works projects on the stage (all of which would have additional effects), and maybe use party poppers and fishing rods, or other Animal Crossing things that Villager doesn't use, to fill in the blanks.

Isabelle as a cartoony terraformer sounds really cool.

 

[Nauzgo]

I think AC's relevance decreased by not getting a real AC on Wii U. And most of the AC material already used for Villager but even if not, a second AC character using such "crazy" attacks like Villager does, takes away the "magic" of Villager's status. I wouldn't prefer that tbh.

 

[Opossum]

I think AC's relevance decreased by not getting a real AC on Wii U. And most of the AC material already used for Villager but even if not, a second AC character using such "crazy" attacks like Villager does, takes away the "magic" of Villager's status. I wouldn't prefer that tbh.

Animal Crossing is far from irrelevant. New Leaf got a massive update years after its release, Happy Home Designer and Amiibo Festival kept it in the public eye for better or for worse, and they gave it two massive amiibo series, one for cards and one for figures. When Badge Arcade still updated Animal Crossing badges outnumbered nearly everything else.

I'm not sure how anyone can truly say the series is losing relevance just because it didn't get a main series Wii U title. The Legend of Zelda only got games that were ports of older titles (Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD), or games that would later be ported (Hyrule Warriors/Legends), or had a simultaneous release with another system (Breath of the Wild). Zelda didn't lose relevance by not having a main series game exclusive to the Wii U. So to say Animal Crossing lost relevance is kind of myopic.

 

[Deleted member]

Whether a series is "underrepresented" or not has never been a legitimate concern for a newcomer choice.
So no, neither Isabelle nor any other character from AC are going to be added just so for the sake of the series having more than one playable fighter.

Isabelle's overall popularity to where she's popping up in other games, however...that will likely give her consideration.
But unfortunately, (and this is something that not many seem to understand) that is all she'll get.

There's truly nothing inherent about her that translates to a fresh, exciting style of fighting, which is something that is looked for.
The only ideas I've ever seen basically translate to "Villager but with a more 'office' flair", "Villager, but with the table scraps of whatever trinkets Villager doesn't use to make her seem 'unique'", or a chaotic mix between those and some random gimmick that sounds good only on paper. And note, that I'm NOT saying the ideas are to make her a clone of Villager. Just that the ideas give her the same kind of style and theme to where she hardly sets herself apart.

This is why I mentioned Chrom as the perfect example. Sakurai had thought of a moveset for him and how he would fight, but the style wasn't anything special to set him apart from Marth or Ike. Assuming he'd actually give serious consideration to her, there's little chance she'll stand out to him.

 

[Opossum]

Whether a series is "underrepresented" or not has never been a legitimate concern for a newcomer choice.
So no, neither Isabelle nor any other character from AC are going to be added just so for the sake of the series having more than one playable fighter.

Isabelle's overall popularity to where she's popping up in other games, however...that will likely give her consideration.
But unfortunately, (and this is something that not many seem to understand) that is all she'll get.

There's truly nothing inherent about her that translates to a fresh, exciting style of fighting, which is something that is looked for.
The only ideas I've ever seen basically translate to "Villager but with a more 'office' flair", "Villager, but with the table scraps of whatever trinkets Villager doesn't use to make her seem 'unique'", or a chaotic mix between those and some random gimmick that sounds good only on paper. And note, that I'm NOT saying the ideas are to make her a clone of Villager. Just that the ideas give her the same kind of style and theme to where she hardly sets herself apart.

This is why I mentioned Chrom as the perfect example. Sakurai had thought of a moveset for him and how he would fight, but the style wasn't anything special to set him apart from Marth or Ike. Assuming he'd actually give serious consideration to her, there's little chance she'll stand out to him.

Just because something hasn't been directly stated or hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it means nothing or won't happen.

Not to mention Sakurai has been on record saying that series balance is important. That and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the ideas people have thought of as things that "only work well on paper." Had anyone brought up the idea or Rosalina being a puppet fighter or Ryu having Street Fighter inputs, they'd have been laughed at and their idea deemed too much of a stretch. Saying otherwise is just letting the present cloud memory of the past.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Even if AC isnt relevant now (it is anyway from the 3 releases it has between 3ds and wii U), when it gets a game on switch, it's going to be a big one. Ninty and Sakurai know this.


AND EVEN THEN. There is still the confirmed AC mobile game that has been dormant since forever. Again, Ninty and Sakurai know this.


Combine with AC characters' masssive popularity, they pretty much check every box except maybe moveset.


That is another matter, but it is literally the only hurdle since they obliterate everything else.