Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[papagenos]

Yeah, I can see that. I just hope Sakurai doesn't turn down a few fan favorites who had a high amount of votes on the ballot and not include them for whatever reason, especially my wanted character, K. Rool. Still, I can see him using the ballot for characters like you said. Just how many is the question.

yeah I obviously would LOVE to get my most wanted fan choice, Geno, in smash and I think his chances are good right now. I already got Little Mac who was my most wanted purely nintendo character and im not holding my breath for banjo kazooie but theyd be my one other "most wanted" character.

But that said if we didn't get either of them I wouldnt really be disappointed this game is shaping up to be everything I wanted smash4 to be AFTER DLC and got very disappointed when Wolf didn't return and we didnt get Inkling or Ridley at the end (wasnt expecting him in smash4 after he was deconfirmed but certainly wanted him before his deconfirmation and if he was the "ballot winner" and changed to playable id have been ecstatic), ice climbers never got added as wiiU exclusive or something etc... I wasnt banking on all those things happening really but they were what I wanted, the few missing pieces to make smash4 feel complete and now with "ultimate" even at this early point it feel complete... so a few MORE hidden things or characters left to find out in this game is just icing on the cake.

if we get a modest amount of newcomers, like 5, if they are fan favorites... this game will destroy all expectations for me, its already THERE, so the rest is all just bonus from here on out and thats not even counting DLC.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Eh, if there were a decent amount of newcomers in the game I think they would've showed more at E3. We only got two unique characters revealed (actually technically only one) and the game is only six months away. Probably only, at very most, two directs and a Smash presentation in the interim.

Usually we get at least three original characters with the game still a year or more away.

We've also never had such a large portion of the roster revealed so far. So it goes both ways really. I'm sure they'll still be hidden surprise newcomers that Sakurai doesn't want to show before game release.

So I don't know. It's a really confusing time. I can see points both way.

 

[Deleted member]

The strange abscene of Isabelle and Ashley so far.

Shadow disappearing. Tingle is no where to be seen.

I think we're still getting a sizable amount of newcomers. Just not 20 or so. Some of these people are too popular to complete erase from any role in the game.

So they'll either be echo fighter newcomers or unique newcomers.

I think you're looking wayyyyy too deeply into things. ATs got cut from Brawl to 4, and never made an appearance in the game. I'm sure a couple like Shadow or Dark Samus might before echo characters. But Ashley, Isabelle, and Tingle imo won't be showing up as playable. Not to mention, he said there's over 50 ATs, and we've seen like half of them so far. So it's not like they're not in the game, it just means people haven't seen them yet. Sometimes an AT getting cut can be as simple as "this character's ability is already done better by another AT, or it just flat out sucks." So rather than rework it, they just cut them and add something new.

How much you... wanna bet?? :D

I already have a problem with people paying me commissions on time. Last thing I want is to hassle someone over a bet they lost. Lol.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

It seems like popular demand characters are atleast appearing in some way ( bomberman, knuckles, krystal, etc)

 

[CannonStreak]

They won't react if they simply don't show the results, because you'll never get to know that they placed high in the first place. PR crisis averted.

Yes, but they could still react anyway, regardless of if results are known or not. That's the fanbase for ya. Also, in the case of K. Rool, he was at least given a costume for Miis in Smash 4. I have reasons to doubt that he'd get in as a costume at all if there wasn't an unspecified, but present high enough demand for him.

 

[SquashiniKun]

Pikachu and Eevee are on the scene

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't think you're looking into it enough @ManlySpirit. Tingle, Isabelle, Shadow, and Ashley are pretty popular gaming characters. Ashley's popularity prominently in Japan. Isabelle the face of her franchise worldwide.

And Sonic got an all new assist trophy of equal popularity to Shadow.

There's definitely something to them being missing. Whether it just they haven't been showcased yet, but no way any of those individuals would get out right cut from the game even as assist trophies. None of the prior cut assist trophies even come close to them in terms of sheer gaming star power or notoriety.

 

[Zinith]

I looking at the CSS for Ultimate, and assuming the characters displays are perfect squares, I think it's 2:1 ratio, meaning there will be twice the characters ordered across to the ones ordered down.

Like Smash 4 before the DLC characters. There were 50 icons (48 regular, 1 Mii, 1 random), 10 across, 5 down.

That should help roster predictions.

We know of 68 characters so far. Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard takes up 1 slot, narrows it to 66. I'm assuming the Mii Fighters will be the same, so that narrows it to 64. The only wild card in this is how Echo Fighters will be handled. Will they have their own slots next to the "real" characters or will they share the same slot? If it's the latter, that narrows it to 61. And then you add the random icon.

So as it stands, the CSS has either 62 or 65 slots depending on what they do with Echo Fighters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I looking at the CSS for Ultimate, and assuming the characters displays are perfect squares, I think it's 2:1 ratio, meaning there will be twice the characters ordered across to the ones ordered down.

Like Smash 4 before the DLC characters. There were 50 icons (48 regular, 1 Mii, 1 random), 10 across, 5 down.

That should help roster predictions.

We know of 68 characters so far. Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard takes up 1 slot, narrows it to 66. I'm assuming the Mii Fighters will be the same, so that narrows it to 64. The only wild card in this is how Echo Fighters will be handled. Will they have their own slots next to the "real" characters or will they share the same slot? If it's the latter, that narrows it to 61. And then you add the random icon.

So as it stands, the CSS has either 62 or 65 slots depending on what they do with Echo Fighters.

I think Echoes would count as their own slots. Or at the very least, this outcome won't have us go crazy if there are 3 less characters than speculated.

 

[Cosmic77]

For those of you who are worried about the number of newcomers, I wouldn't freak out just yet.

We still have a solid six months before the release. Seeing how every veteran is already confirmed, there's not much else to discuss in terms of characters aside from newcomers. Once we include possible hidden characters, I think we'll end up with about ten newcomers. Not as much as we're used to, but nothing to sneeze at either.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think you're looking into it enough @ManlySpirit. Tingle, Isabelle, Shadow, and Ashley are pretty popular gaming characters. Ashley's popularity prominently in Japan. Isabelle the face of her franchise worldwide.

And Sonic got an all new assist trophy of equal popularity to Shadow.

There's definitely something to them being missing. Whether it just they haven't been showcased yet, but no way any of those individuals would get out right cut from the game even as assist trophies. None of the prior cut assist trophies even come close to them in terms of sheer gaming star power or notoriety.

No, I definitely think you're overanalyzing things. You should take what Sakurai says at face value this time around. Game launches in less than 6 months, they're not done working on adapting the veterans to the new engine + rebalancing. And Sakurai openly asked people that he hopes that because of all of the effort going into bringng EVERY character into the game, they don't expect many newcomers this time around. At MOST imo, we're gonna be seeing like 6 more newcomers overall, and that's factoring DLC. I'm not counting echo characters, but I'd also say to keep expectations low on those too as well. Probably a handful of echo characters as well to please people. Stuff like Shadow, Dark Samus, and so forth all seem reasonable.

You have to consider that the workload in a game like this increases EXPONENTIALLY with every new addition. So keep expectations low, and reasonable. Sakurai literally said this, lol. So, 4-6 newcomers overall, a couple echoes here and there. Most of them very popular picks for the former, and easy to adapt characters that make sense for the latter.

 

[Zeox]

Honest question: Was Daisy THAT popular that she became a character, or she is only a character because she was an easy echo character to make?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I looking at the CSS for Ultimate, and assuming the characters displays are perfect squares, I think it's 2:1 ratio, meaning there will be twice the characters ordered across to the ones ordered down.

Like Smash 4 before the DLC characters. There were 50 icons (48 regular, 1 Mii, 1 random), 10 across, 5 down.

That should help roster predictions.

We know of 68 characters so far. Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard takes up 1 slot, narrows it to 66. I'm assuming the Mii Fighters will be the same, so that narrows it to 64. The only wild card in this is how Echo Fighters will be handled. Will they have their own slots next to the "real" characters or will they share the same slot? If it's the latter, that narrows it to 61. And then you add the random icon.

So as it stands, the CSS has either 62 or 65 slots depending on what they do with Echo Fighters.

I'm assuming just like in smash 4 echoes will get their own slots, they're essentially fancy named clones and sakurai has already said in smash 4 that if a character plays even slightly differently then they get their own slot.

 

[Deleted member]

or she is only a character because she was an easy echo character to make?

This.

 

[CannonStreak]

No, I definitely think you're overanalyzing things. You should take what Sakurai says at face value this time around. Game launches in less than 6 months, they're not done working on adapting the veterans to the new engine + rebalancing. And Sakurai openly asked people that he hopes that because of all of the effort going into bringng EVERY character into the game, they don't expect many newcomers this time around. At MOST imo, we're gonna be seeing like 6 more newcomers overall, and that's factoring DLC. I'm not counting echo characters, but I'd also say to keep expectations low on those too as well. Probably a handful of echo characters as well to please people. Stuff like Shadow, Dark Samus, and so forth all seem reasonable.

You have to consider that the workload in a game like this increases EXPONENTIALLY with every new addition. So keep expectations low, and reasonable. Sakurai literally said this, lol. So, 4-6 newcomers overall, a couple echoes here and there. Most of them very popular picks for the former, and easy to adapt characters that make sense for the latter.

Well said, ManlySpirit. I am no game developer, but I can imagine how much work it takes to make each character. That's why there probably won't be too many new characters, and why we should keep our expectations low as you said.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I find it hilarious that people are balking at the percentages peeps were dying at during the invitational. Absolutely nothing about the game is optimized, both in itself mechanically/systemically and how it will be played.

Don't count your chickens, fam.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Zeox]

This.

Then we could expect other echo characters that aren't so requested or popular but were added for being easy to make.

 

[papagenos]

I looking at the CSS for Ultimate, and assuming the characters displays are perfect squares, I think it's 2:1 ratio, meaning there will be twice the characters ordered across to the ones ordered down.

Like Smash 4 before the DLC characters. There were 50 icons (48 regular, 1 Mii, 1 random), 10 across, 5 down.

That should help roster predictions.

We know of 68 characters so far. Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard takes up 1 slot, narrows it to 66. I'm assuming the Mii Fighters will be the same, so that narrows it to 64. The only wild card in this is how Echo Fighters will be handled. Will they have their own slots next to the "real" characters or will they share the same slot? If it's the latter, that narrows it to 61. And then you add the random icon.

So as it stands, the CSS has either 62 or 65 slots depending on what they do with Echo Fighters.

i assume the CSS will look like this, 12x6, and ordered not by series but by date of inclusion in smash, with the original 12 characters at the top and then going down by each characters "number". leaves room for 7 more, of course the bottom could be staggered so it could be less and DLC makes me think whatevers left of the base roster plus DLC will certainly exceed 7, so who knows what the CSS will look like after that.

 

[KingIceSonic]

Sorry if this has been brought up before but I just wanted to post this leak from the same guy who leaked the E3 info. Seems like he has a bit of inside info and connections

What I hear is that there will be one Nintendo Direct around August which will showcase the start Screen all the way to the menu options. Tournament Mode will be shown and two other modes beside the All-Star Mode. Of those two modes, one is completely new and will be the primary way to unlock new characters.

I’ll keep you posted if I know anything else...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76579834?page=36

 

[Zinith]

View attachment 148173
i assume the CSS will look like this, 12x6, and ordered not by series but by date of inclusion in smash, with the original 12 characters at the top and then going down by each characters "number". leaves room for 7 more, of course the bottom could be staggered so it could be less and DLC makes me think whatevers left of the base roster plus DLC will certainly exceed 7, so who knows what the CSS will look like after that.

I'm of course not considering DLC on purpose

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honest question: Was Daisy THAT popular that she became a character, or she is only a character because she was an easy echo character to make?

Both, Daisy seems to be decently popular among the casual crowd, add that to her being easy and her inclusion makes sense

 

[Deleted member]

I find it hilarious that people are balking at the percentages peeps were dying at during the invitational. Absolutely nothing about the game is optimized, both in itself mechanically/systemically and how it will be played.

Don't count your chickens, fam.

Smooth Criminal

Obviously the game is in development, but there's reason to voice concern. You don't say these things out loud, right now, and they never get fixed. So people SHOULD be loud about the fact that recovery is wayy too strong in the game. And they have been. Hungrybox, Armada, and Mang0 have all specified this on Twitter or YT at one point or another. The fact that the game is still being fine tuned, is why I'm still holding out that the game will ultimately turn out great, because it has a lot of potential, it's a step forward from 4, it just needs a bit more push. Otherwise, if it was gonna be a repeat of the mess that was 4's gameplay, I wouldn't even be here as I wouldn't even be inclined to bother with the game in the first place.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honest question: Was Daisy THAT popular that she became a character, or she is only a character because she was an easy echo character to make?

As much hate as she gets on Smashboards, Daisy is still a pretty iconic Mario character. I'm sure she wouldn't have gotten in if she weren't a Peach clone, but I feel like Sakurai was very happy to finally have an excuse to add her over more unique Mario characters.

 

[Radical Bones]

Just thinking about it, Isabelle would probably make a really easy to implement Echo of Villager, even though there is enough source material to make her unique.

Also, on the 'don't expect too many newcomers' point - remember that we got 21 newcomers including DLC and Mii Fighters in Smash 4, so I think Sakurai is more implying that the number won't be that high. I'm expecting low teens.

 

[Nani?]

I'm honestly fine with Daisy though she might have worked better as a pallet swap.

 

[ErenJager]

I don't think you're looking into it enough @ManlySpirit. Tingle, Isabelle, Shadow, and Ashley are pretty popular gaming characters. Ashley's popularity prominently in Japan. Isabelle the face of her franchise worldwide.

And Sonic got an all new assist trophy of equal popularity to Shadow.

There's definitely something to them being missing. Whether it just they haven't been showcased yet, but no way any of those individuals would get out right cut from the game even as assist trophies. None of the prior cut assist trophies even come close to them in terms of sheer gaming star power or notoriety.

It was said there's over 50 AT's, we've seen about half.
Compare that number with how many AT's have ever appeared in Smash.
Odds say it's more then possible they return as AT's.

Some popular characters may have been put off to the side in case they had time to implement them as fully playable.
They're consideration may result in them developed last as AT's if they didn't make the cut for the roster.

Mind you super popular Isaac and Ray MK AT's both got removed in Smash 4.

 

[DLEAF]

Remember guys, DLC is a thing, and it's quite possible that this game expands () even more after launch. I'm only expecting 5-6 additional newcomers before launch, including echoes, but DLC could go on indefinitely.

 

[Deleted member]

Then we could expect other echo characters that aren't so requested or popular but were added for being easy to make.

To a degree. They won't be totally off the wall picks. And I'd say they'll probably fall in line with what makes sense for the franchise too. So... Impa, Shadow, Dark Samus, Louie, Ken, all seem like rational choices. I can't think of anymore, but I'm sure someone more dedicated is able to come up with a full list. I don't think we'll be seeing any of them cross franchises, but I could be wrong. They certainly won't be doing stuff that would require you alter the character's moveset though. So Dixie for example is off the cards I'd say.

 

[Murlough]

DLC isn’t going to solve all the problems since people are going to suspect that they left a majority of the newcomers from the base roster to add as DLC.

Thats an incredibly ignorant thing to assume. Not saying you would think that but it is incredibly ignorant for someone to actually think that.

This game brought every old vet back and had no cuts. Obviously, that would have a huge impact on newcomers.

I would say people should actually have some basis for their assumptions but I don't believe that will ever actually happen. People would much rather complain about getting new content and having to pay for it, too.

DLC is not always a bad thing. In fact, DLC is usually done very tastefully. DLC in Smash 4 was very tasteful. They absolutely should repeat it, more profits for them and more content for us to enjoy.

You don't want additional characters post release? Great news, friend! You don't have to pay for it! I literally bought ZERO Mii costumes and Smash 4 is still a great game for me.

(I'm not directing my post at you directly moreso the argument of "I don't want DLC and I wanna be catered to!" Seriously, just don't buy the new characters....let us who want more and Nintendo who want more money get what we both want...you lose literally nothing.)

 

[RandomAce]

They're called clones. Ones who were retooled from another character but could not become costumes due to having too many differences.

Young Link was a clone of Link while making his skeleton/model smaller. It makes no sense to think of him like Toon Link. They're different in how they were created. Toon Link wasn't even explained directly, just that "as a clone, he shares the same moves as Link". That's it. So he likely was a different model with changed up animations. Do note that Toon Link has a lot of differences from Link in Brawl to the point that he's only similar in some regards, but has tons of different animations, a very unique character model, and quite a few different moves. Their specials, up air, down air, and a fairly small list of moves are the same. Young Link was mostly a 1:1 match to Link. Toon Link is more like a 1:3 match to Link(my ratio may be off, but the idea is there).

I agree but I still stand by my point that the Zelda roster at least needs one more character that isn’t Link, Zelda, or Ganon.

Having 6 characters when in reality there is only 3 canonically seems bloated when you compare that to Fire Emblem and Pokémon with everyone of their characters being different (except Lucina, but canonically she is a different person).

It really doesn’t look right.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

IMind you super popular Isaac and Ray MK AT's both got removed in Smash 4.

Not to knock favorite characters of yours or anyone's or anything, but these two are no where near the level of popular that any of the current missing assist trophies are.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Obviously the game is in development, but there's reason to voice concern. You don't say these things out loud, right now, and they never get fixed. So people SHOULD be loud about the fact that recovery is wayy too strong in the game. And they have been. Hungrybox, Armada, and Mang0 have all specified this on Twitter or YT at one point or another. The fact that the game is still being fine tuned, is why I'm still holding out that the game will ultimately turn out great, because it has a lot of potential, it's a step forward from 4, it just needs a bit more push. Otherwise, if it was gonna be a repeat of the mess that was 4's gameplay, I wouldn't even be here as I wouldn't even be inclined to bother with the game in the first place.

Funny thing you mention recovery because the eagle-eyed of the Smash 4 players and the likes of Leo, Zero, ESAM, etc. have pointed out the "vacuum hands" aspect of ledge recovery has been toned down considerably based on the build they played on, plus there's the fact that you can only directional airdodge once + diminishing returns on invincibility airdodging/dodging period. I'd say that's a pretty substantive change when considering your recovery options in this game, don't you?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Iridium]

There are a lot of people saying rage starts around 120%-130% in SSBU. Is this something that will bring balance to many characters?

 

[Jexulus]

Any news on how Pokemon Trainer switches between Pokemon this time around? I'm hoping it's not Down B because that means Charizard is back to only three specials again. It seems that Sheik and Zelda are also separate again since Sheik still has Bouncing Fish, but I haven't heard anything about that either.

 

[RandomAce]

Thats an incredibly ignorant thing to assume. Not saying you would think that but it is incredibly ignorant for someone to actually think that.

This game brought every old vet back and had no cuts. Obviously, that would have a huge impact on newcomers.

I would say people should actually have some basis for their assumptions but I don't believe that will ever actually happen. People would much rather complain about getting new content and having to pay for it, too.

DLC is not always a bad thing. In fact, DLC is usually done very tastefully. DLC in Smash 4 was very tasteful. They absolutely should repeat it, more profits for them and more content for us to enjoy.

You don't want additional characters post release? Great news, friend! You don't have to pay for it! I literally bought ZERO Mii costumes and Smash 4 is still a great game for me.

(I'm not directing my post at you directly moreso the argument of "I don't want DLC and I wanna be catered to!" Seriously, just don't buy the new characters....let us who want more and Nintendo who want more money get what we both want...you lose literally nothing.)

I’m just worried that I won’t get to play my favorite character in the base roster and have to pay for it. Happened in Smash 4 and I didn’t have any money so I couldn’t get them until much later. :’(

But recently with a trend of fighting games and how they have DLC and season pass that people started getting tired of. That is how I made my statement. Look at DBFZ when they said that there were 8 DLC characters planned. People got REALLY salty.

 

[ErenJager]

Not to knock favorite characters of yours or anyone's or anything, but these two are no where near the level of popular that any of the current missing assist trophies are.

They aren't my fav's but Isaac was huge back during Smash 4 speculation.

Just using Smashboards as an example... like the most commented and viewed threads were like KKR, Ridley, and Isaac.

There really isn't anything substantial to say just because certain AT's weren't shown in the first Smash direct, doesn't automatically mean they're playable... It's possible... but screwy things have happened with AT's before.... And Sakurai even said there's like 50... so makes sense there's a handful unaccounted for.

Sakurai took forever to show Waluigi as an AT for Smash 4 as well.

 

[Cosmic77]

I agree but I still stand by my point that the Zelda roster at least needs one more character that isn’t Link, Zelda, or Ganon.

Having 6 characters when in reality there is only 3 canonically seems bloated when you compare that to Fire Emblem and Pokémon with everyone of their characters being different (except Lucina, but canonically she is a different person).

This. Having six reps is great and all, but three Links? Zelda and her alter ego?

Getting one more Zelda character would be fantastic. We haven't gotten a truly unique Zelda character since Melee.

Any news on how Pokemon Trainer switches between Pokemon this time around? I'm hoping it's not Down B because that means Charizard is back to only three specials again. It seems that Sheik and Zelda are also separate again since Sheik still has Bouncing Fish, but I haven't heard anything about that either.

Unfortunately, Charizard is back down to three specials.

 

[Curious Villager]

Any news on how Pokemon Trainer switches between Pokemon this time around? I'm hoping it's not Down B because that means Charizard is back to only three specials again. It seems that Sheik and Zelda are also separate again since Sheik still has Bouncing Fish, but I haven't heard anything about that either.

It's down B, Charizard has It's Rock Smash move removed.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Not sure if anybody has seen this yet, but more stages seem to be here!

83+ stages and most of them (if not all) are returning ones? I'd honestly be surprised if Sakurai didn't bring back all the past stages as well at this point.

 

[monadoboy]

I'm already so overwhelmed by this game and people keep talking about more characters. I can't expect more than five more, and I won't be surprised if we get two more and an Echo.
Hopefully Elma and a SS Impa, imo.