Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[FunAtParties]

Midna would be a great grappler.

 

[Deleted member]

Er...Bowser, DK, Luigi, Ness, Falcon, Diddy, et cetera? Traditional grapplers don't work well in platform fighters. Instead, Smash has characters who merely have good grabs and strong rewards from landing grabs.

One word: Paco.

Tell me again how a grappler doesn't work in a platform fighter? :V

 

[Swamp Sensei]

May you please explain me how you define a grappler? Because when I read it, I think to and to .

Basically, they're characters that rely on getting the grab. These characters typically have tons of grabs for a variety of situations.

To use Zangief like Golden did, In SFV alone, Zangief has...

• A normal forward and back throw
• Four versions of spinning piledrivers for close range hard hits
• Four versions of a running bear grab for opponents far away
• A grab super for TONS of damage

Zangief needs to be close to do damage and his other skills help him do that.

In Smash, we could give such a character lots of command grabs or even a special system just for them where instead of four throws they could have eight (four normal and four diagonal throws).

To reply to other things...

For a trap charcter medusa can do a great job at filling that role.

I fail to see how.

We have yet to get a summoner (if we're not including Jr's mechakoopa or Olimar's Pikmin), but I'm drawing a blank on who could embody that archetype well besides Pauline with the mini figurines or Adeleine with her drawings, neither of which are particularly likely.

Strictly speaking we don't have a summon character.

A summon character is something like Gargos from Killer Instinct from where they summon actual AI to attack the opponent.

Jr. is a zoner and Olimar is an ammo/stock character.

The best fit for a traditional summon character is probably a revamped Pokemon Trainer summoning Pokemon to do attacks.

The Thief archetype is pretty much Anna's territory, though Mimikyu or a Final Fantasy/ Bravely Default character could somewhat fill the role too.

Thief isn't a fighting game archetype. Though characters could use stealing in their moveset. That'd be kind of neat.

One word: Paco.

Tell me again how a grappler doesn't work in a platform fighter? :V

Paco is also OP as ****.

 

[Deleted member]

Paco is also OP as ****.

Try being someone like Paco against someone like Bayo. :V


....but the overall point was that "they can't work" isn't a valid excuse. Paco shows now only can they work, but they can work too well if not handled right.

 

[Arcadenik]

One word: Paco.

Tell me again how a grappler doesn't work in a platform fighter? :V

Oh my god... this is how I envisioned Toad with the ability to pick up and carry his enemies SMB2-style in Smash.

 

[Curious Villager]

Wouldn't Mallo sort of work as one? I mean, he's a sumo wrestler who could probably use a lot of grab based moves in his playstyle. Although he'd probably also have some other moves based off the Pushmo franchise so I suppose he wouldn't be a full on grab based character.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Midna would be a great grappler.

I was not aware how much I wanted this.

Try being someone like Paco against someone like Bayo. :V


....but the overall point was that "they can't work" isn't a valid excuse. Paco shows now only can they work, but they can work too well if not handled right.

Agreed.

 

[A Distant Demon]

One word: Paco.

Tell me again how a grappler doesn't work in a platform fighter? :V

. . .this is awesome. Maybe not balanced, but awesome.

It's a good thing Litten learns Lick so that Incineroar can be a clone of him


. . .and it just occurred to me something even better about this. One of the signature moves of grappler characters like Zangief, Haggar and even Paco here is the Lariat. . .and what is Incineroar's signature move?

A LARIAT

 

[Deleted member]

. . .and it just occurred to me something even better about this. One of the signature moves of grappler characters like Zangief, Haggar and even Paco here is the Lariat. . .and what is Incineroar's signature move?

A LARIAT

And not just any Lariat.....the Darkest Lariat.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I have a serious question, how many characters do you think will get added to a port realistically? Also, if we don't get a port, and we get a new game 3 years from now, who is safe, who is cut, and who is new to the fray? Realistically. Smash 4 added a ton of newcomers. How big do you think they'd let the roster get?

I think a port could have anywhere between 3-8 new characters.

1. Ice Climbers
2. Inkling
3. Spring Man
^Shoe-ins in my eyes^
4. Decidueye
5. Rex/Rex & Pyrrha (sp?)
6. Wolf (fan demand)
7. Chorus Kids/Marshal (They were planned, and I supposed scrapped for the same reason the Ice Climbers were.)
8. 3rd Party Character (King K. Rool *Nintendo Born, Owned by RARE*, Dragon Quest Hero, ???)

If it's a new game, I could see some cuts, some sad ones. (I feel anyone who was DLC is on the chopping block (Licensing issues for some, just feel unsafe for others), Robin (In favor of new Fire Emblem mage), Greninja (In favor of new Pokemon), Mega Man (Licensing), Pacman (Licensing), Lucina, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, (aforementioned 3; Clones). I don't think all would be cut, because that'd be 14 cuts which is huge. Also, many of them have unique movesets, and Sakurai hates trashing uniqueness.

 

[Deleted member]

8. 3rd Party Character (King K. Rool *Nintendo Born, Owned by RARE*)

.....what are you talking about?
Nintendo owns K. Rool.

 

[Megadoomer]

If it's a new game, I could see some cuts, some sad ones. (I feel anyone who was DLC is on the chopping block (Licensing issues for some, just feel unsafe for others), Robin (In favor of new Fire Emblem mage), Greninja (In favor of new Pokemon), Mega Man (Licensing), Pacman (Licensing), Lucina, Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, (aforementioned 3; Clones). I don't think all would be cut, because that'd be 14 cuts which is huge. Also, many of them have unique movesets, and Sakurai hates trashing uniqueness.

I can't see there being that many cuts. The clones are easy to make, I can't see Greninja being cut in favour of a new Pokemon (remember when everyone thought that would happen to Lucario?), and Namco-Bandai is absurdly close to Nintendo (being listed in ARMS' credits, making Pokken Tournament, etc.).

Awakening saved Fire Emblem as a series from cancellation, so I can't see Robin being cut (especially since he's the most unique out of all of the Fire Emblem characters - I know that's hard to say from an objective standpoint, but given the sheer amount that he can do, and the fact that he represents a mechanic of the main games, I feel confident in saying that).

As for DLC characters, I don't feel like licensing will be as big of a deal. Cloud might get cut, seeing as Square-Enix seemed stingier than other companies, but I can't see them cutting Bayonetta (for two big reasons - she's the ballot winner, and she's owned by the same company that owns Sonic, who's as close to a sure thing as possible where third party characters are concerned), and I feel like Ryu and Mega Man are a package deal.

Lucas and Mewtwo might get cut, but given how much fanfare surrounded their announcement, I doubt it. As for Corrin, maybe they'd get replaced with a newer lord, but female Corrin in particular seems to be extremely popular among the Fire Emblem fanbase, and with their unique moveset, it seems like enough of a reason for them to stick around.

----

As for a port, I'd say five new characters at the most, though three seems more likely (probably Wolf, Ice Climbers, and a Nintendo newcomer who did well in the ballot - maybe Inklings, but I could see them being saved for the first new character announced for the next brand new Smash Bros.).

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

.....what are you talking about?
Nintendo owns K. Rool.

To my knowledge, he isn't. Which is sad. He'd make for a unique newcomer, and add another villain. He was created by RARE back in the day when they worked with Nintendo on Donkey Kong games. He is a Nintendo character in essence, but he was created by RARE. Which is now owned by Microsoft. Not saying he couldn't get in. It's just a matter of licensing now. Unless you know otherwise, which please inform me. It's all just civil discussion. :D

 

[Deleted member]

To my knowledge, he isn't. Which is sad. He'd make for a unique newcomer, and add another villain. He was created by RARE back in the day when they worked with Nintendo on Donkey Kong games. He is a Nintendo character in essence, but he was created by RARE. Which is now owned by Microsoft. Not saying he couldn't get in. It's just a matter of licensing now. Unless you know otherwise, which please inform me. It's all just civil discussion. :D

When Rare went to Microsoft, everything DK went to Nintendo.
That includes K. Rool, who has shown up in multiple DK games (and a Mario sports game) since the sale.

If Rare owned K. Rool, he wouldn't have been in those games, nor would there be trophies of him in Brawl and Smash 4, nor would there be a costume of him (which is copyrighted to Nintendo on the official site as opposed to Rare).

 

[Delzethin]

To my knowledge, he isn't. Which is sad. He'd make for a unique newcomer, and add another villain. He was created by RARE back in the day when they worked with Nintendo on Donkey Kong games. He is a Nintendo character in essence, but he was created by RARE. Which is now owned by Microsoft. Not saying he couldn't get in. It's just a matter of licensing now. Unless you know otherwise, which please inform me. It's all just civil discussion. :D

All DK characters are owned by Nintendo. Rare was essentially commissioned to create many of them, but they fall under Nintendo's intellectual property.

K. Rool's real issue is his lack of relevance as of late. Until he shows up in a new game, his chances rely on the Ballot.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

. . .this is awesome. Maybe not balanced, but awesome.

It's a good thing Litten learns Lick so that Incineroar can be a clone of him


. . .and it just occurred to me something even better about this. One of the signature moves of grappler characters like Zangief, Haggar and even Paco here is the Lariat. . .and what is Incineroar's signature move?

A LARIAT

Not only that but he has the perfect final smash in his signature Z-move (can't remember the name).

 

[Luminario]

...Okay, I stand corrected, we don't have a true summoner or saboteur yet. Though those may be rather difficult to implement.

The saboteur can just lower the attack power of opponents that are debuffed or lower their running speed and stuff like that, so nothing too complex. Summoner would be difficult to implement, especially if their summons are AI controlled, but I was thinking something along the lines of Pauline summoning a mini DK to throw barrels forwards and a mini Luigi to jump up and down to vertically control space, or Adeleine summoning a Shotzo to shoot cannonfire forwards. Nothing too crazy.

If by a thief you mean a fragile speedster type who needs to weave in and out to rack up damage over time, we do have a few hit-and-run fighters. Pikachu and Sonic come to mind in particular.

For a thief archetype I was thinking a character who could take the item the opponent was holding with a Fox Illusion sort of attack along with being a fragile speedyster, though Swampasaur is right in saying it's not a fighting archetype, just a cool concept for a unique fighter.

We also have a few trappers even with Snake gone. Diddy and R.O.B. are the obvious ones--the latter in particular gets a lot off gyro confirms--while Dedede has situational traps with his gordos and Robin has two trapping moves in Arcthunder and Arcfire that have different uses!

I forgot about Diddy's banana completely, though DDD's and Robin's aren't exactly the sort of traps I was thinking of. Still, I guess traps are covered but they can definitely be expanded on.

The best fit for a traditional summon character is probably a revamped Pokemon Trainer summoning Pokemon to do attacks.

That's a much better summoner idea. They could bring in Pokemon Ranger to fill that role too.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

When Rare went to Microsoft, everything DK went to Nintendo.
That includes K. Rool, who has shown up in multiple DK games (and a Mario sports game) since the sale.

If Rare owned K. Rool, he wouldn't have been in those games, nor would there be trophies of him in Brawl and Smash 4, nor would there be a costume of him (which is copyrighted to Nintendo on the official site as opposed to Rare).

Ah, well now I know. I was simply misinformed before. Well, cheers to King K. Rool. Long may he reign.

 

[Kain6th]

I'm just curious but what do you guys think is the reason we have not seen any new patches released for over a year now?

A. They are done with smash and have moved on to other games (like a brand new Smash bros game) regardless if they feel the game is balanced or not?
B. They are done for now but will return to patch it once a port has been released for switch
C. They feel the game is balanced and therefore no need for future patches
D. Other reason?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I can't believe you brought up thieves but not Nabbit
I can't believe you brought up existing trap characters but not Pac-Man
I can believe you brought up summoning characters but not Monita

 

[Luminario]

I can't believe you brought up thieves but not Nabbit
I can't believe you brought up existing trap characters but not Pac-Man
I can believe you brought up summoning characters but not Monita

Can we call the projectile shenanigans of Pac-man a trap playstyle?
I can't believe I forgot Nabbit existed. He's a potential thief too, along with Ravio. I never touched Nintendo Land so I can't comment on Monita.

 

[Wolfie557]

I fail to see how

Its mainly a hypothetical moveset style that most medusa fans think would suit her the best based on her mainly ranged abilities in Uprising and OG Ki.

She has a lot of ranged projectiles to use. Some move slowly others fast so would be a good zone/trao character. She could poison and turn to stone potentially.

Her melee attacks would be close range but could posion and have short range shooting effects as she can release small/big projectilss from face and palms.

Yh im not that good at knowing Medusa's abilities myself so can only speak generally.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Can we call the projectile shenanigans of Pac-man a trap playstyle?
I can't believe I forgot Nabbit existed. He's a potential thief too, along with Ravio. I never touched Nintendo Land so I can't comment on Monita.

Yeah, I think that the Trampoline especially is a great trap, especially when used in conjunction with a Fire Hydrant that is "launched" with a jab, so that it slowly tumbles forwards

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm just curious but what do you guys think is the reason we have not seen any new patches released for over a year now?

A. They are done with smash and have moved on to other games (like a brand new Smash bros game) regardless if they feel the game is balanced or not?
B. They are done for now but will return to patch it once a port has been released for switch
C. They feel the game is balanced and therefore no need for future patches
D. Other reason?

My best guess is A. Mario Kart 8 never got any new updates after Mario Kart 8 Deluxe got released, so I highly doubt that Smash 3DS / Wii U will be getting any more updates, even if a Smash Switch does get developed.

 

[Luminario]

Yeah, I think that the Trampoline especially is a great trap, especially when used in conjunction with a Fire Hydrant that is "launched" with a jab, so that it slowly tumbles forwards

The Trampoline being used as a trap feels much more like a secondary effect that people exploit, so it's more of an unintentional trap, but a trap none the less so I guess Pac can be counted too. We still need a more blatant Snake Dsmash mine trap character now in order to really show the specific archetype. It's one of the things I believe Isabelle can shine at, with things like using bubble wands to create floating bubble traps or building the Resetti manhole for ground traps and such.

 

[Zerp]

I'm just curious but what do you guys think is the reason we have not seen any new patches released for over a year now?

A. They are done with smash and have moved on to other games (like a brand new Smash bros game) regardless if they feel the game is balanced or not?
B. They are done for now but will return to patch it once a port has been released for switch
C. They feel the game is balanced and therefore no need for future patches
D. Other reason?

I want to believe that it's A. or B. but given that on the last patch they only nerfed and didn't touch anyone else, I can see it being C. because it's almost as if they thought Bayonetta was the only character with any problems.

 

[Delzethin]

I'm just curious but what do you guys think is the reason we have not seen any new patches released for over a year now?

A. They are done with smash and have moved on to other games (like a brand new Smash bros game) regardless if they feel the game is balanced or not?
B. They are done for now but will return to patch it once a port has been released for switch
C. They feel the game is balanced and therefore no need for future patches
D. Other reason?

Most likely A...to an extent They've been devoting their resources to something, and so they haven't had the time or manpower to patch the current versions.

If a Switch port is in the works, though? You can bet they'll keep that updated.

 

[splat]

Strictly speaking we don't have a summon character.

A summon character is something like Gargos from Killer Instinct from where they summon actual AI to attack the opponent.

Jr. is a zoner and Olimar is an ammo/stock character.

The best fit for a traditional summon character is probably a revamped Pokemon Trainer summoning Pokemon to do attacks.

As someone who is not too well versed in traditional fighting games: what makes a summon character different from any other character in regards to playing style, apart from animations? (serious question)

Keeping in line with your Pokémon Trainer example, I've often seen N get mentioned as a possible summoner - with move ideas like "his ftilt can be Glameow that swipes once" or "his fsmash can be a Timburr that smacks his log around" - but I fail to see how this would define his playstyle. I mean, I see how that could be defined as summoning, but it says very little about how he would play. It would just tell me what to expect from his animations.

Or has the summoner archetype been explained wrong to me, and does it mean something else? I can see RoA's Forsburn (or using an Assist Trophy, for that matter) fit the 'summoner' name, too - as he summons a clone that attacks for him (without any inputs, as that'd be a puppateer, right?).

Until he shows up in a new game, his chances rely on the Ballot.

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I've been binging your videos while working on a couple of movesets myself. I love how you tend to take the less obvious routes to make some unique sets (like how you incorporated Dixie's DKCTF hover into her double jump, rather than her up special). Great stuff man, keep it up!

 

[Luminario]

As someone who is not too well versed in traditional fighting games: what makes a summon character different from any other character in regards to playing style, apart from animations? (serious question)

Keeping in line with your Pokémon Trainer example, I've often seen N get mentioned as a possible summoner - with move ideas like "his ftilt can be Glameow that swipes once" or "his fsmash can be a Timburr that smacks his log around" - but I fail to see how this would define his playstyle. I mean, I see how that could be defined as summoning, but it says very little about how he would play. It would just tell me what to expect from his animations.

Or has the summoner archetype been explained wrong to me, and does it mean something else? I can see RoA's Forsburn (or using an Assist Trophy, for that matter) fit the 'summoner' name, too - as he summons a clone that attacks for him (without any inputs, as that'd be a puppateer, right?).

Well from what I understand a summoner is a character who summons an underling that can act independently from the summoner and have separate hurtboxes, hence the reason I brought up Jr's mechakoopa. Your N example is a good one, as summoning pokemon to simply attack only visually make him a summoner, and the pokemon are purely there to explain the hitboxes. I'd say in order for him to embody the archetype completely he'd need specials that summon pokemon to act on their own too. Forsburn's cloning might be too much for Smash as he's creating a second version of himself, so it's gotta be much more simple.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Kilton that summons monsters with his masks let's go

 

[Lord-Zero]

With e3 out of the way, the chances of a Switch port lof Smash 4 dropped considerably. This year's Switch game line-up is pretty packed and good for the most part.

 

[MrNantendo]

Kirby will probably get a Nintendo Direct in the future where they show off the 3DS game. Probably before blowout blast is released. Get more on Kirby Switch as well as amiibo.

Anyway here is the next Smash poll. This time it is about the Nintendo Wars series!

https://twitter.com/MrNantendo/status/876448040428732417

 

[splat]

Anyway here is the next Smash poll. This time it is about the Nintendo Wars series!

https://twitter.com/MrNantendo/status/876448040428732417

Why only mention Advance Wars characters from a single game (or sequels of that particular game) in your poll? There's characters you could pull from the reboot, from Battalion Wars or even a common infantry unit (then again, that's my preferred pick so that maybbr some bias on my end). Not really a representative poll for the entire series now, is it?

 

[Ura]

Kirby will probably get a Nintendo Direct in the future where they show off the 3DS game. Probably before blowout blast is released. Get more on Kirby Switch as well as amiibo.

Anyway here is the next Smash poll. This time it is about the Nintendo Wars series!

https://twitter.com/MrNantendo/status/876448040428732417

Don't have Twitter anymore but please throw in a vote for my boy with the wrench.

Why only mention Advance Wars characters from a single game (or sequels of that particular game) in your poll? There's characters you could pull from the reboot, from Battalion Wars or even a common infantry unit (then again, that's my preferred pick so that maybbr some bias on my end). Not really a representative poll for the entire series now, is it?

Batallion Wars is a very small subset of the Wars series. It's not even apart of the core "Wars" series.

Though I guess having a BW Assist Trophy would be nice. Then again that would require having an AW playable character and that's super wishful thinking.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm not particularly fan of pushing a certain fighting style unto a character just for the unique factor. Either it works, and best example in my opinion is Rosalina & Luma, or it fails terribly like with Pokémon Trainer, Zelda / Sheik and Ice Climbers.

So no, don't force stuff on things. Especially since it also takes up a TON of development time just to balance these sort of characters out and program them right.

There's no summoning character that makes a lot of sense and has a lot of popularity to warrant a playable role? Then don't add a summoning character. It's that simple.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

With e3 out of the way, the chances of a Switch port lof Smash 4 dropped considerably. This year's Switch game line-up is pretty packed and good for the most part.

What makes you say that?

 

[Arcadenik]

Meowth could summon Team Rocket Pokémon!

Maybe one of Meowth's special moves (maybe Neutral Special) could be Nasty Plot. It's like Pac-Man's Bonus Fruit where Meowth chooses a Pokémon to summon.

You press the B button to make Meowth pull out a bag and look inside. Three thought clouds with question marks appear above Meowth's head. The middle thought cloud shows the Pokémon Meowth is thinking about. Press the B button again to make Meowth pull out a Pokeball and summon that Pokémon. Press the B button to call them back. You can have one Pokémon out at a time.

Meowth could summon the following Pokémon: Arbok, Weezing, Wobbuffet, Bewear, Mimikyu.

Arbok could wander around the stage looking for opponents to attack. When Arbok finds one, it disables them with Glare like Mewtwo's Down Special and then wraps around them. This way, Meowth could run up to the opponent and scratch them.

Weezing could float around the stage following right behind Meowth. When Meowth is close to an opponent, Weezing floats toward the opponent and uses Poison Gas just like it did in Melee. This could be used to keep opponents from recovering.

Wobbuffet could run around the stage following right behind Meowth. When an opponent attempts to hit Meowth, Wobbuffet gets in the way to counterattack physical attacks with Counter. When an opponent shoots or throws something at Meowth, Wobbuffet gets in the way to deflect projectiles with Mirror Coat. However, Wobbuffet will be wobbling in place for a second after it gets hit so it will be unable to protect Meowth during this time.

Bewear could walk around the stage looking for opponents to hug. When Bewear spots one, it will run toward that opponent and hug them like Zangief's bear hug. Sometimes Bewear might jump off the stage to hug the opponent midair... and that would be very bad for opponents who are trying to recover.

Mimikyu could be like Midna Assist Trophy where it just teleports around and uses Shadow Claw to attack opponents.

 

[Argos]

I'm increasingly thinking we might be getting a "Smash 4.5" building off of 4 rather than a straight port or entirely new entry, though I could easily be wrong. Either way, no way it's coming out this year, obviously. Nintendo has a hard enough time producing enough Switches as it is, they need to really ramp up their production line before releasing another major system seller like Smash is.

I've always kinda doubted they could pull off a Mario Kart 8 port scenario, honestly. A big part of why Mario Kart is selling so well is because so few people had access to a Wii U so it's a brand new game for them. Smash 4 already had a portable version on a much healthier console, and I'm not sure Pac-Land, Smash Tour and better graphics would be enough to make it a must-have to those who had casually played that version. I mean it would obviously sell well enough, cause it's Smash, but they might be looking into putting more effort into it so it's the behemoth it usually is.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'm not particularly fan of pushing a certain fighting style unto a character just for the unique factor. Either it works, and best example in my opinion is Rosalina & Luma, or it fails terribly like with Pokémon Trainer, Zelda / Sheik and Ice Climbers.

So no, don't force stuff on things. Especially since it also takes up a TON of development time just to balance these sort of characters out and program them right.

There's no summoning character that makes a lot of sense and has a lot of popularity to warrant a playable role? Then don't add a summoning character. It's that simple.

Ok I'll bite, how did the Ice Climbers "fail miserably"?

 

[Delzethin]

With e3 out of the way, the chances of a Switch port lof Smash 4 dropped considerably. This year's Switch game line-up is pretty packed and good for the most part.

I don't think it affects things much, to be honest. The odds of it not releasing until next March or so have risen dramatically, but there's still too much going around for us to throw out any notion that a Switch version of Smash 4 exists.

Although...I've been talking with some people as of late, and some of them have made an interesting argument for whether we might be looking at a Splatoon 2 situation. Could what started as an enhanced port become a pseudo-sequel with more refined modes and more new content than what Mario Kart and Pokkén are doing? I don't know, but now it does seem possible.

(Note: I do not know if Splatoon 2 started as an enhanced port. I just wonder if "Smash 4.5" became "Smash 4.75" during the process.)

A 100% brand new from-the-ground-up game is still too impractical right now, though.