Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

I guess he didn't wanted to put FE Characters in the Top 10?

Also... Nantendo has already talk about Celica... and he doesn't see her as something other that a Marth/Robin Clone (he gave to her the 15% approval)

Well Nan also has ****ing Puyo Puyo's Arle as 70% likely iirc. The guy's opinions can be dumb

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Types don't matter at all in Smash, though, aside from when we had PT and each starter had a weakness IIRC. You already mentioned it but Melee had two electric types, Pikachu and Pichu. That disproves the point that we can't have Pokemon of a similar type in Smash. Saying that Squirtle can't be in he's water and Greninja is water is like saying we can't have Rex or Elma or Takamaru or whoever else because they use a sword and we already have over characters who already use swords. Even if they're both Water type, Greninja and Squirtle obviously fight differently, just like how all of our sword wielders fight differently.

And yeah I explained my last part about a veteran being a new character horribly, I meant that they're still work to add in, similar to adding a new character, so that's why I said "10 new characters" instead of "6 newcomers, 4 vets". I wouldn't call Squirt/Ivysaur high priority characters but we aren't Sakurai so neither of our comments on their priority have a basis

yeah veterans aren't "newcomers" or new characters, but I think that they can almost be considered one in terms of workload, that's what I was trying to say. I just did it horribly

since veterans are still an addition to the roster that has to be balanced just like a newcomer, they have to have their models updated, etc. But I know nothing of game design so I'm probably still wrong on this point

Then Pichu or Melee Pika died to make room for only one of them, and not all the swords people fight differently (Lucina, Roy, and somewhat children Links). As for the two Pokeboys whom were cut, Sakurai could’ve brought one of them back alongside Mewtwo (or even have made them separate from Charizard without being lost), but instead one got replaced and the other is doing something. Instead of focusing on Gen 1 characters, it’s better to replace them with newer Pokémon characters to give them a bit of a push than going to ones who aren’t as popular as Pika and Mew or fresh as Greninja. If one of them manages to get in before a new one than I’ll commit Pokecide and accept defeat, but for now I say they done.

How did the Deeds know about subspace?

Sakurai told him

I guess he didn't wanted to put FE Characters in the Top 10?

Also... Nantendo has already talk about Celica... and he doesn't see her as something other that a Marth/Robin Clone (he gave to her the 15% approval)

Well at best she and Alm should be alts to Robin and Marth/Lucina, while Lyn or Anna takes up a whole slot

 

[Pokechu]

Lip's series hasn't been released outside of japan without rebranding it and literally taking her out of the game. This is the same issue that stopped takamaru getting in so I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to lip when she's already considerably less popular than him

If anything Lyn should've got that spot

ohhh okay that makes sense, Lip's game turned into a Yoshi game, right? I always forget that thanks for explaining!

 

[Autumn ♫]

Celica being a Marth/Robin clone would be severely limiting her abilities. Celica has a lot more going for her than just being another clone, with her self damge mechanic being a really fun one, given that it's done right. Heck, if you really wanted to stretch it a little more, you could give her Invoke, allowing her to summon a few weak fighters to help her.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I am ****ing disgusted anyone would consider Celica as just a Robin clone. I mean, magic is something Smash has barely dabbled with, are you guys REALLY that unimaginative to think of any cool magic ****?

 

[Opossum]

What's wrong with Lip? She seems like a good retro choice to me.

With Celica honestly I'm not sure if she'd be in my top 10 either, her hybrid play style with a sword and a tome is already being used by Robin and while she could have stronger attacks at the cost of dealing damage to herself, and also her own exclusive spells (Mila's Turnwheel, Ragnarok, etc.) that wouldn't change how her fundamental moveset would still be very similar to Robin's. Not to mention how she has competition with Lyn and imo Anna as the former won the popularity poll and the latter has a lot to draw from (axes, lances, her own goofy nature, etc.). Plus as a whole Fire Emblem really doesn't need a seventh character, at least in my opinion. It got treated good during Smash 4, for Smash 5 I don't think it needs to get anyone. Though this is just a top 10 female fighters and not a top 10 most likely, so I'm digressing from the point now

Lip has the same issues that prevented Takamaru from getting in (which Takamaru no longer has, to boot). She's not happening.

And Celics would play nothing like Robin. Celica is primarily a freehand magic user. Magic would encompass a majority of her attacks, while Robin only uses magic in five moves (six with Bolganone).

 

[Pokechu]

Then Pichu or Melee Pika died to make room for only one of them, and not all the swords people fight differently (Lucina, Roy, and somewhat children Links). As for the two Pokeboys whom were cut, Sakurai could’ve brought one of them back alongside Mewtwo (or even have made them separate from Charizard without being lost), but instead one got replaced and the other is doing something. Instead of focusing on Gen 1 characters, it’s better to replace them with newer Pokémon characters to give them a bit of a push than going to ones who aren’t as popular as Pika and Mew or fresh as Greninja. If one of them manages to get in before a new one than I’ll commit Pokecide and accept defeat, but for now I say they done.

Well yeah a majority of our sword users fight differently. I didn't think I'd have to mention the clones/LuciRoy, because Squirtle already was in Brawl and he fights nothing like Greninja.

And it would have been really dumb to bring just one of Squirtle or Ivysaur back, but it also would have been odd to focus on them before other characters in the base game, as it is true that they don't have the popularity that many of the newcomers or other veterans had. But Greninja didn't "replace" Squirtle. How can you be the replacement of something if you're completely different from it lol it's like saying Lucario replaced Mewtwo. Yet as we speak Mewtwo and Lucario are in Smash today and wasn't it true that Mewtwo was planned for Brawl??

I guess we can only wait and see, though. E3 where you at

 

[Garteam]

Well Nan also has ****ing Puyo Puyo's Arle as 70% likely iirc. The guy's opinions can be dumb

Nantenjex released a recent video where he admitted that he only gave Arle a score that high to shake the boat with what was the general consensus at the time. He said Arle's chances are probably closer to something like 50%.

Although, him giving Celica a 15% was still pretty dumb. She's the most likely Fire Emblem character at this point.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I think calling Celica a robin clone is a stretch however it's true that her and robin fill the same niche of the magic wielding swordsman, there's more you can probably do with her but I understand the thinking that sakurai may want to avoid treading old ground in that regard when there's other characters that fill different niches instead. Especially in a series like fire emblem where we have lances, axes, mounted units, and even different styles of swordplay like what lyn would bring.

And even sakurai agrees that Fire Emblem is overrepresented so I'm doubtful we'll get a new rep in the base game

 

[Deleted member]

What's wrong with Lip? She seems like a good retro choice to me.

With Celica honestly I'm not sure if she'd be in my top 10 either, her hybrid play style with a sword and a tome is already being used by Robin and while she could have stronger attacks at the cost of dealing damage to herself, and also her own exclusive spells (Mila's Turnwheel, Ragnarok, etc.) that wouldn't change how her fundamental moveset would still be very similar to Robin's. Not to mention how she has competition with Lyn and imo Anna as the former won the popularity poll and the latter has a lot to draw from (axes, lances, her own goofy nature, etc.). Plus as a whole Fire Emblem really doesn't need a seventh character, at least in my opinion. It got treated good during Smash 4, for Smash 5 I don't think it needs to get anyone. Though this is just a top 10 female fighters and not a top 10 most likely, so I'm digressing from the point now

Lip isn't relevant even in the one country she's been in.
Also, Celica wasn't mentioned in the Honorable Mentions, even when other FE characters were discussed.
Between popularity, recency and relevance, Celica is the recent one to Lyn's popularity and Anna's relevance.

I won't debate much on the moveset thing because I'm sure most people think magic means "cool, flashy explosions"

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

I honestly believe Smash should have 1 and only 1 Pokemon for each generation. Yes, even if that means cutting the likes of and . I just feel like each generation deserves representation, you know?

I like the idea of bringing in at least 1 Pokémon from each generation. It's a matter of which one. As for cutting some, I'm not sure that's entirely necessary.

Nothing from other generations is gonna be worth it cutting the two MOST POPULAR Pokemon ever ; Mewtwo and Charizard, and one of the Original 12.

We don't NEED every generation represented. I don't get why that's even an issue. I also don't get the forced "need" for a Grass type starter.

It's all just too forced.

Nothing from other generations are popular and notable enough honestly.

If it wasn't for the Pokémon Trainer back in Brawl, we wouldn't have the "missing gap of Grass" thing in Smash. It left a hole some people would liked filled.
Plus, different typing might allow for unique opportunities that the current roster doesn't really offer at the moment.

As for other generations, it might be because some think it would be nice for each generation of Pokémon to get a playable fighter. Similar to my typing reasoning, other generations of Pokémon may have something unique to offer in Smash and we might not get that in a specific generation if Pokémon in Smash were centered strictly on one generation without borrowing from another.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

And Celics would play nothing like Robin. Celica is primarily a freehand magic user. Magic would encompass a majority of her attacks, while Robin only uses magic in five moves (six with Bolganone).

Nope. All of his throws, his pummel, his B moves and his FS uses magic, which makes 10 moves. He also uses the Lewin Sword for his Smash attacks which is also magical with it's electric sparks creating additional hitboxes (with the power of said sword being canonically derived from the Magic stat in his home series) so that is several more moves to take into account.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Nantenjex released a recent video where he admitted that he only gave Arle a score that high to shake the boat with what was the general consensus at the time. He said Arle's chances are probably closer to something like 50%.

Although, him giving Celica a 15% was still pretty dumb. She's the most likely Fire Emblem character at this point.

I spoke to Nan about this on the SG Discord. Nan refuses to believe Puyo Puyo being VERY niche outside Japan kills her chances considering Takamaru already had some Western appearances before Smash 4 outside his own game. Giving those circumstances a 50% chance is why these arbitrary percentages are ****ing dumb imo, especially Rate Their Chances here and more, regardless of the character

 

[Roberk]

I don’t see many people talking about Mila’s Turn wheel as a mechanic for Celica, it would be one of the most unique mechanics ever as a time-rewinding move.

Also:
>complaining about not having enough mages and females but not including Celica.
Seriously?

While Celica can be a Marth/Robin clone (see other recent appearances) she can most definetely be a very interesting and capable newcomer.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

In terms of new FE characters it's seemingly between the fan favorite of Lyn and the newcomers (kinda...) of Alm and (mostly) Celica.

Unless there a character that's super massive in the Japanese fanbase that we've all been ignoring.

 

[osby]

I am ****ing disgusted anyone would consider Celica as just a Robin clone. I mean, magic is something Smash has barely dabbled with, are you guys REALLY that unimaginative to think of any cool magic ****?

In Smash, what Ness or Mewtwo does, not so far from magic. Even without them, you still have Palutena, Peach, Rosalina, Bayonetta, Zelda, Robin and Ganondorf.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Lip has the same issues that prevented Takamaru from getting in (which Takamaru no longer has, to boot). She's not happening.

And Celics would play nothing like Robin. Celica is primarily a freehand magic user. Magic would encompass a majority of her attacks, while Robin only uses magic in five moves (six with Bolganone).

Yet Marth and Roy got in and introduce the world to Fire Emblem? If they can do that, I don't see how Lip can't

 

[Zeox]

Makes sense. If Sakurai believes that the older generation had most of their big names characters, why wouldn't he focus more on newer characters?

Interesting...

 

[Phaazoid]

Lip has the same issues that prevented Takamaru from getting in (which Takamaru no longer has, to boot). She's not happening.

And Celics would play nothing like Robin. Celica is primarily a freehand magic user. Magic would encompass a majority of her attacks, while Robin only uses magic in five moves (six with Bolganone).

Is it weird that whenever I read Bolganone I hear it as baloney?

 

[Autumn ♫]

To be completely honest, I'd like to see how Celica's popularity would hold up if she was relevant in the first FEH poll.

My bet is that she would have been third, since she won the 2nd poll in the females group, which excluded Lyn and Lucina.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don’t see many people talking about Mila’s Turn wheel as a mechanic for Celica, it would be one of the most unique mechanics ever as a time-rewinding move.

Also:
>complaining about not having enough mages and females but not including Celica.
Seriously?

While Celica can be a Marth/Robin clone (see other recent appearances) she can most definetely be a very interesting and capable newcomer.

The only reason people are convinced she can only be a clone is because of FEWarriors, a game in which a large chunk of the cast, including the DLC characters, share the same or very similar movesets to pad out the roster

Yet Marth and Roy got in and introduce the world to Fire Emblem? If they can do that, I don't see how Lip can't

Weren't they initially going to be Japan exclusive characters? Even then Roy was just added to pad the roster out and to advertise the upcoming game, different scenario than adding a character from a dead franchise

 

[CrusherMania1592]

The only reason people are convinced she can only be a clone is because of FEWarriors, a game in which a large chunk of the cast, including the DLC characters, share the same or very similar movesets to pad out the roster

Weren't they initially going to be Japan exclusive characters? Even then Roy was just added to pad the roster out and to advertise the upcoming game, different scenario than adding a character from a dead franchise

Still doesn't mean they can't add Lip. Just because she's from a "dead" series doesn't mean anything. They've given us her Flower for 3 games. At least make her show up as more than a trophy

 

[Opossum]

Nope. All of his throws, his pummel, his B moves and his FS uses magic, which makes 10 moves. He also uses the Lewin Sword for his Smash attacks which is also magical with it's electric sparks creating additional hitboxes (with the power of said sword being canonically derived from the Magic stat in his home series) so that is several more moves to take into account.

His throws/pummel were literally the only moves you listed that I didn't cover.

And the Levin Sword is still a sword.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Yet Marth and Roy got in and introduce the world to Fire Emblem? If they can do that, I don't see how Lip can't

Probably because Fire Emblem was still getting games and was a pretty large franchise in Japan, while Lip hasn't been seen in forever iirc and while she always had a chance to be seen in the west, was replaced by other Nintendo characters.

If Fire Emblem was already released in the west, but replaced by other Nintendo characters, I'd assume the same fate would have befell them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Still doesn't mean they can't add Lip. Just because she's from a "dead" series doesn't mean anything. They've given us her Flower for 3 games. At least make her show up as more than a trophy

Well the fact they had an Excitebike stage in Mario Kart doesn't stop an Excitebiker in Smash either does it? Lip doesn't have anything to stand out for if again, Takamaru got shot down for not being familiar enough for Western audiences

 

[Arcanir]

> Not even a mention of Celica despite no-hopers like Lip and Paula being listed.

Yeah okay SourceGaming.

Yeah, I can't say I agree with Nantendo on ignoring Celica. I know he feels she'd be a clone (which as many have said, is greatly underplaying her abilities), but even with that in mind he still mentions other characters who have their own woes to consider, so it's not like she would've been alone in that regard even with that mindset. At the very least she should've been mentioned alongside Lyn and Anna, if not pushed up to the main Top 10 with them.

 

[Diddy Kong]

If it wasn't for the Pokémon Trainer back in Brawl, we wouldn't have the "missing gap of Grass" thing in Smash. It left a hole some people would liked filled.
Plus, different typing might allow for unique opportunities that the current roster doesn't really offer at the moment.

As for other generations, it might be because some think it would be nice for each generation of Pokémon to get a playable fighter. Similar to my typing reasoning, other generations of Pokémon may have something unique to offer in Smash and we might not get that in a specific generation if Pokémon in Smash were centered strictly on one generation without borrowing from another.

I still don't think Greninja was chosen because of it's typing, moreso because of it's overall design. Imagine for a moment Greninja was just an extremely popular Pokemon, 3rd stage, but it's typing was Poison / Dark instead of Water / Dark. Would the stigma of having a new Water AND Grass type just be as big? I honestly doubt it.

 

[Troykv]

In terms of new FE characters it's seemingly between the fan favorite of Lyn and the newcomers (kinda...) of Alm and (mostly) Celica.

Unless there a character that's super massive in the Japanese fanbase that we've all been ignoring.

That would something interesting to do... I would need to learn japanese to do that xDU

Also there is the always present Micaiah fan that want the Female Mage to appear in the game... please.

 

[T-Hell]

I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this but I cannot find SourceGaming to be professional nor worthy to take too seriously, especially those tremendously subjective and random "rate that character chances" videos.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Well the fact they had an Excitebike stage in Mario Kart doesn't stop an Excitebiker in Smash either does it? Lip doesn't have anything to stand out for if again, Takamaru got shot down for not being familiar enough for Western audiences

Doesn't have anything to stand out? Bruh, are you telling me that her flower attacks aren't even "standing out"?

Go to the Lip thread and read some of their stuff.

 

[SirCamp]

Is it weird that whenever I read Bolganone I hear it as baloney?

I mean considering it's also spelled Bologna, not really. I did the same thing.

 

[Pokechu]

I am ****ing disgusted anyone would consider Celica as just a Robin clone. I mean, magic is something Smash has barely dabbled with, are you guys REALLY that unimaginative to think of any cool magic ****?

And Celics would play nothing like Robin. Celica is primarily a freehand magic user. Magic would encompass a majority of her attacks, while Robin only uses magic in five moves (six with Bolganone).

I never meant to imply that Celica would be a clone, just that she'd have the same niche Robin has with being a magic swordsman. Granted Celica wouldn't/doesn't have to use her sword to the same extent as Robin or at all, but adding Celica would still fill the same niche. There is a lot you can do with Celica but instead of adding her it'd be better to add a lance, axe, or bow character.

Huh... Anna has used all three...

His throws/pummel were literally the only moves you listed that I didn't cover.

And the Levin Sword is still a sword.

But it's a magic thunder sword... it is a sword but it's a magical one as. If you boil the Levin Sword down to just a sword then it shouldn't be a surprise why people boil down Celica to just a Robin clone.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Well yeah a majority of our sword users fight differently. I didn't think I'd have to mention the clones/LuciRoy, because Squirtle already was in Brawl and he fights nothing like Greninja.

And it would have been really dumb to bring just one of Squirtle or Ivysaur back, but it also would have been odd to focus on them before other characters in the base game, as it is true that they don't have the popularity that many of the newcomers or other veterans had. But Greninja didn't "replace" Squirtle. How can you be the replacement of something if you're completely different from it lol it's like saying Lucario replaced Mewtwo. Yet as we speak Mewtwo and Lucario are in Smash today and wasn't it true that Mewtwo was planned for Brawl??

I guess we can only wait and see, though. E3 where you at

Well they did bring back all wanted vets possible other than Wolf, Squirtle, Ivysaur, so it wouldn’t be the dumbest of ideas (especially if they were to stick with a fire/water/grass...2/4 of the Avatar cycle, and Mewtwo/Lucario fight differently and are different types of Pokémon. I consider Greninja to have replaced Squirts due to them being water types (benders).

Mewtwo was supposed to join before time constraints occurred...and Sonic I suppose

Yeah we can wait for E3...as I hope to not be wrong
As for the sword users, the only ones who don’t fight different are

The only reason people are convinced she can only be a clone is because of FEWarriors, a game in which a large chunk of the cast, including the DLC characters, share the same or very similar movesets to pad out the roster

My reason is because I want Lyn in Smash more than her and Alm, but I also want them to join (so making them alts to Marth/Lucina and Robin would be satisfying enough for me)

 

[Autumn ♫]

I'll trust SourceGaming with like, translating and sourcing things, but with Smash opinions, I tend to disagree a lot with them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly a Poison pokemon would be cool as ****, having poison gasses up as traps like that one Poison Kirby attack needed for a puzzle in Robobot, it can be affected by the wind and slowly racks up the damage. You can even add Venoshock or Venom Drench to make things worse for your enemies. Shame that Poison types rarely, if ever, seem to be popular or even noticed by Game Freak as it took years for them to be super effective on more than ****ing Grass

 

[Garteam]

I spoke to Nan about this on the SG Discord. Nan refuses to believe Puyo Puyo being VERY niche outside Japan kills her chances considering Takamaru already had some Western appearances before Smash 4 outside his own game. Giving those circumstances a 50% chance is why these arbitrary percentages are ****ing dumb imo, especially Rate Their Chances here and more, regardless of the character

I agree yet also disagree. Yes, 50% chances is way, way to high for a third party character who's a very niche pick outside of Japan. However, characters who are popular only in one reason have made into Smash before (such as Marth and Little Mac). I'd personally give Arle a 10%, she's got her Japanese demand but very little else. However, said demand still makes her a horse in this race, albeit an extremely unlikely one.

Rate that Character scores tend to be very much on the high side though. This is the same series that gave Marx a 40% and Daisy a 30%.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly a Poison pokemon would be cool as ****, having poison gasses up as traps like that one Poison Kirby attack needed for a puzzle in Robobot, it can be affected by the wind and slowly racks up the damage. You can even add Venoshock or Venom Drench to make things worse for your enemies. Shame that Poison types rarely, if ever, seem to be popular or even noticed by Game Freak as it took years for them to be super effective on more than ****ing Grass

I vote Sallazle.

Toxic to Venoshok FTW

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Honestly a Poison pokemon would be cool as ****, having poison gasses up as traps like that one Poison Kirby attack needed for a puzzle in Robobot, it can be affected by the wind and slowly racks up the damage. You can even add Venoshock or Venom Drench to make things worse for your enemies. Shame that Poison types rarely, if ever, seem to be popular or even noticed by Game Freak as it took years for them to be super effective on more than ****ing Grass

Hence why I believe Gengar and Salazzle would be two of the best representatives for Poison type moves.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Honestly a Poison pokemon would be cool as ****, having poison gasses up as traps like that one Poison Kirby attack needed for a puzzle in Robobot, it can be affected by the wind and slowly racks up the damage. You can even add Venoshock or Venom Drench to make things worse for your enemies. Shame that Poison types rarely, if ever, seem to be popular or even noticed by Game Freak as it took years for them to be super effective on more than ****ing Grass

I'm still waiting on Poison types to be good against Water types.

It's kind of a bummer that Ivysaur never really used any Poison type moves in Brawl. Here's hoping for Piopole, I guess?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Doesn't have anything to stand out? Bruh, are you telling me that her flower attacks aren't even "standing out"?

Go to the Lip thread and read some of their stuff.

I'm not going to read something on what a character that would never happen for reasons I already listed to see why they could somehow ignore that huge hurdle because "Oh well actually this character deserves to ignore the hurdle despite the hurdle still being there"

Hence why I believe Gengar and Salazzle would be two of the best representatives for Poison type moves.

Eh... Gengar's mostly known for it's shadowy tricks so it wouldn't be added for that I feel

I agree yet also disagree. Yes, 50% chances is way, way to high for a third party character who's a very niche pick outside of Japan. However, characters who are popular only in one reason have made into Smash before (such as Marth and Little Mac). I'd personally give Arle a 10%, she's got her Japanese demand but very little else. However, said demand still makes her a horse in this race, albeit an extremely unlikely one.

Rate that Character scores tend to be very much on the high side though. This is the same series that gave Marx a 40% and Daisy a 30%.

30 is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too generous