Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Fenriraga]

Since I saw this being discussed a little while ago, can I just say how much I hate how Corrin's dragon transformation was handled in Smash?

Like, I don't like Corrin and I ESPECIALLY don't like Fates, but a Lord with a Dragonstone AND a sword is a very neat concept that Smash could have done so much with. and what do they do?

Well uh... Her counter, and her down and up throws and Final Smash. Moves in which the player does not directly control that form. That's it.

Yeah, I know, she transforms parts of her body to her dragon form for some of her attacks, but honestly just about all of those attacks probably could be replaced with something else and the only thing that would be lost is a bit of visual flair.

I dunno, Corrin is still fun enough to play, But I just think she could have used a little bit more scales.

Lucas's game was actually intended to be released in 2005 before being delayed and Lucario made his debut in a movie that aired in 2005, the same year the roster for Brawl was finalized (with the exception of Sonic) so those examples don't really help your argument at all.

Don't forget Lucas was originally going to replace Ness in Melee and Mother 3's development goes all the way back to the N64.

Meaning Sakurai had Lucas on the brain for a long, LONG time.

 

[P.Kat]

Well smash and mania are the only good things sonic has going for him right now, after all forces was trash and flopped lol

I think Forces was okay not terrible not spectacular but okay I will admit to wanting longer levels but other than that average

 

[Pakky]

Woah the site is so shiny and new now!

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Turning into a dragon is a fancy visual. Their range outside of a few moves is average.

Wasn’t counting clones. Kinda thought that was obvious...

Let’s be real here. Nothing Corrin does is unique to the character. Hell, you could slap Springman over the moveset and very little would change, and it would still fit.

>Nothing Corrin has is unique to the character
>Is the only character (aside from their son/daughter) in the entire series that can shapeshift specific body parts

Dude. Pls.

I know some people here don’t like Corrin but you guys can do better than this.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

This just depresses me ;;

A Playstation All Stars game without the major All Stars. Konami even only gave them Raiden...

It's sad really. Only Namco and Take Two were willing to play ball by having their most fitting characters. At least Raiden debuted on the PS2.

And is a darned sight better than the wrong Dante.

 

[CannonStreak]

I think Forces was okay not terrible not spectacular but okay I will admit to wanting longer levels but other than that average

Exactly! Like I said, it could have been better.

 

[Fenriraga]

Forces isn't a bad game per se, but it was an extraordinarily disappointing one. Which in Sonic's case is honestly just as bad as being... Well, bad. Sonic's not in a position where he can afford even so much as an "okay-ish" game given how unbelievably tarnished his reputation has become, and ESPECIALLY with how Mania left Forces in its dust from the perspective of fan reception, sales (probably), critical acclaim and other such things.

There's a reason SEGA has been marketing the hell out of Mania but not Forces.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I think Forces was okay not terrible not spectacular but okay I will admit to wanting longer levels but other than that average

I'd argue that in addition to levels being stupidly short, the gameplay is just worse than it was in generations, the level themes are constantly reused and the actual level designs range from mediocre to bad.

The game isn't the worst thing ever but it's one of the most mediocre sonic games ever made, a rushed mess

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Don't forget Lucas was originally going to replace Ness in Melee and Mother 3's development goes all the way back to the N64.

Correction, it was from the SNES era as the development period spanned from 1994 to 2006.

 

[Zinith]

<---This is the largest image of Kart Fighter Yoshi I could find on the internet. It's so small...

 

[Bebe Mignon]

As an aside, I'm working on a big write up on Vereben. I've stumbled on a lot of interesting tidbits.

Intriguing...

 

[LancerStaff]

So turning into a dragon and having more range than arguably the entire roster, as well as having the ability to pin a character into the ground with the dragon arm isn't unique from any of the other characters in the roster, who surprisingly, can't do that?

I mean, I don't know what definition you're using to define Corrin as "not unique" but like...yeah. Being unique in Smash means you do things nobody else can, and that you can't be played the same way as anybody else. Corrin fits both of those.

I'm also quite sure Sakurai would have said "Nope" if she didn't offer anything new.

Having a fancy graphic and some range is not a unique character. One silly gimmick move does not a unique character make. I mean I could add a Rabbid and they could have a recovery move that also acts as a reflector... That’s “unique” by some definition I suppose. Now by large it doesn’t effect their play style but still it’s “unique.”

Corrin right now is just better Ike and nothing more.

I honestly don’t see Sakurai taking someone’s hard work and ****ting on it. I also don’t see Corrin returning, especially since he acknowledged that there’s too many FE characters and would likely include a different FE character over them if he wanted a fourth... Like perhaps a character who uses their dragon form for more than a counter visual?

 

[CannonStreak]

I'd argue that in addition to levels being stupidly short, the gameplay is just worse than it was in generations, the level themes are constantly reused and the actual level designs range from mediocre to bad.

The game isn't the worst thing ever but it's one of the most mediocre sonic games ever made, a rushed mess

While I may understand in some aspects, some of what you said rather boils down to being what you think of the game. In other words, subjective. I persoanlly liked modern Sonic's stages, despite the short levels and their level design. From what I heard, there were a lot of new faces working on the game rather than those from old ones like Generations.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Since I saw this being discussed a little while ago, can I just say how much I hate how Corrin's dragon transformation was handled in Smash?

Like, I don't like Corrin and I ESPECIALLY don't like Fates, but a Lord with a Dragonstone AND a sword is a very neat concept that Smash could have done so much with. and what do they do?

Well uh... Her counter, and her down and up throws and Final Smash. That's it.

Yeah, I know, she transforms parts of her body to her dragon form for some of her attacks, but honestly just about all of those attacks probably could be replaced with something else and the only thing that would be lost is a bit of visual flair.

I dunno, Corrin is still fun enough to play, But I just think she could have used a little bit more scales.

The forward special is, in some respects, one of the most unique moves in the entire game and it's based on the projections being stake-like. Couldn't exactly have that with Springman.
Also neutral special, while not totally mechanically unique, makes a lot of visual sense with the transformation and I can't think of anything else a character could do with the same practical effect that would make as much sense.
I find it weird that Corrin's getting flak for their design when it's honestly one of the better ones in the series and I say that as someone who doesn't even remotely care about recent Fire Emblem titles.

 

[LancerStaff]

>Nothing Corrin has is unique to the character
>Is the only character (aside from their son/daughter) in the entire series that can shapeshift specific body parts

Dude. Pls.

I know some people here don’t like Corrin but you guys can do better than this.

Characters don’t deserve to be playable for fancy visuals or to fit stupid quotas like “shape shifting” or “hair attacks.”

 

[Lyndis_]

Honestly, Mania, the mobile games/comics and Smash is really the only thing keeping Sonic relevant at this point IMO.

I'm somewhat biased because I just don't think modern Sonic games are fun (or even really games most of the time) but it seems like they continue to be flop after mediocrity after flop until something good comes along every couple of titles then it gets followed by mediocrity or another flop.

I don't think cutting Sonic would significantly hurt Smash, but it would be a huge disappointment to many people (including myself.)

 

[Pakky]

Any new leaks?

Honestly, Mania, the mobile games/comics and Smash is really the only thing keeping Sonic relevant at this point IMO.

I'm somewhat biased because I just don't think modern Sonic games are fun (or even really games most of the time) but it seems like they continue to be flop after mediocrity after flop until something good comes along every couple of titles then it gets followed by mediocrity or another flop.

I don't think cutting Sonic would significantly hurt Smash, but it would be a huge disappointment to many people (including myself.)

That's how I fell as someone who's played most of the modern stuff since Adventure DX. I'm planning on getting Maina for the Switch when it gets its physical release.

The characters have rubbed me kind of the wrong way for a while like Mighty and Ray are great because they provide unique twists on the gameplay. And for that I love them. On the other hand, Rouge the Bat, for example, is a fine character but she doesn't really have too much that I can say that is exclusively her's. Omega is Gama which okay? Big the Cat is a good meme but fishing in Sonic is a turn off for me. Shadow has some cool DBZ stuff but mostly he's just been Sonic with weapons and cars

 

[Fenriraga]

The forward special is, in some respects, one of the most unique moves in the entire game and it's based on the projections being stake-like. Couldn't exactly have that with Springman.
Also neutral special, while not totally mechanically unique, makes a lot of visual sense with the transformation and I can't think of anything else a character could do with the same practical effect that would make as much sense.
I find it weird that Corrin's getting flak for their design when it's honestly one of the better ones in the series and I say that as someone who doesn't even remotely care about recent Fire Emblem titles.

My point is moreso that moves like her forward special are something you could get the same effect from by using a character with a spear/lance (Which some sword characters get upon promotion in Fire Emblem). It's not that the moves aren't unique or fun, in fact Corrin is begrudgingly my favorite FE character to play in Smash, it's more that the Dragon part of them just felt underutilized and was for nothing more than visual flair, whereas in Fates you could straight up ignore her sword and go full on Dragon for all your attacks if you so desired.

 

[Nekoo]

Any new leaks?

I have a good and laughable one.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Having a fancy graphic and some range is not a unique character. One silly gimmick move does not a unique character make. I mean I could add a Rabbid and they could have a recovery move that also acts as a reflector... That’s “unique” by some definition I suppose. Now by large it doesn’t effect their play style but still it’s “unique.”

Corrin right now is just better Ike and nothing more.

I honestly don’t see Sakurai taking someone’s hard work and ****ting on it. I also don’t see Corrin returning, especially since he acknowledged that there’s too many FE characters and would likely include a different FE character over them if he wanted a fourth... Like perhaps a character who uses their dragon form for more than a counter visual?

>Is a better Ike
>Referring to character that plays literally nothing like Ike
I mean, if you don't like Corrin that's one thing, but at least try to use good reasons.

Hatebases don't really mean anything, but let's face it. Corrin is far different from any other Fire Emblem character on the roster, and is at least far more different than Roy or Lucina are to Marth.

Corrin has some wiggle room before she gets cut. There's also nothing saying that Sakurai needs to add another this game. I'll leave it there and just say that Corrin really isn't as bad as some make her out to be.

Most people are just mad because they think Corrin took a valued newcomer spot away from their newcomer of choice (not saying that's why you don't like her) but it's simply not true.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Any new leaks?

Only thing so far is this

 

[Deleted member]

Any new leaks?

Not yet. Well, not today.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

While I may understand in some aspects, some of what you said rather boils down to being what you think of the game. In other words, subjective. I persoanlly liked modern Sonic's stages, despite the short levels and their level design. From what I heard, there were a lot of new faces working on the game rather than those from old ones like Generations.

they got new people working on the game but those people had barely worked on anything, I think one of the level designers worked on lost world which was...eh...and the others had never worked on sonic level design. This game spent four years in development and was supposed to be a major comeback for modern sonic after the boom fiasco. The fact that Sega put so little care into it is honestly depressing cause the game could've been more than mediocre.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, Mania, the mobile games/comics and Smash is really the only thing keeping Sonic relevant at this point IMO.

I'm somewhat biased because I just don't think modern Sonic games are fun (or even really games most of the time) but it seems like they continue to be flop after mediocrity after flop until something good comes along every couple of titles then it gets followed by mediocrity or another flop.

I don't think cutting Sonic would significantly hurt Smash, but it would be a huge disappointment to many people (including myself.)

Don't forget the Sonic Boom show. While it's a different Sonic, it's still overall the recognized character.

Gaming icons generally stay relevant as is if they're beyond huge.

 

[CannonStreak]

they got new people working on the game but those people had barely worked on anything, I think one of the level designers worked on lost world which was...eh...and the others had never worked on sonic level design. This game spent four years in development and was supposed to be a major comeback for modern sonic after the boom fiasco. The fact that Sega put so little care into it is honestly depressing cause the game could've been more than mediocre.

Well, they spent the first two years making a new engine for graphics called the Hedgehog Engine as well as for planning, if you don't mind me pointing it out. So it was moreso 2 years.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I have a good and laughable one.

Did some rough maths and that'd be more than 25 female characters in one go to make things equal. Not that there isn't a lot of female characters to draw from but I have my doubts...

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Banjo in Smash would be so great, I've wanted that since Melee.

But I wish people would stop thinking Microsoft is keeping Goldeneye from Nintendo, if they had the ability to keep that from happening then don't ypu think it would be on Xbox by now? The most likely reason for it never getting a rerelease is that the rights to the game are so tangled up in different companies that it just isn't worth the time or money to even think about.

Goldeneye reemerging on a Nintendo platform would be absolutely massive. It would be huge, hype-wise. Especially if it was a redux. Dare I say it, more massive than beloved classic charters like K.Rool, Banjo, etc making it into Smash. There has been rumours and talks on and off for the best part of 15 years and is one of the biggest what ifs in the industry.

 

[Nekoo]

they got new people working on the game but those people had barely worked on anything, I think one of the level designers worked on lost world which was...eh...and the others had never worked on sonic level design. This game spent four years in development and was supposed to be a major comeback for modern sonic after the boom fiasco. The fact that Sega put so little care into it is honestly depressing cause the game could've been more than mediocre.

Honestly, Mania, the mobile games/comics and Smash is really the only thing keeping Sonic relevant at this point IMO.

I'm somewhat biased because I just don't think modern Sonic games are fun (or even really games most of the time) but it seems like they continue to be flop after mediocrity after flop until something good comes along every couple of titles then it gets followed by mediocrity or another flop.

I don't think cutting Sonic would significantly hurt Smash, but it would be a huge disappointment to many people (including myself.)

And let's not forget the wonderful fact that Sega/Sonic Team was ******** enough to take most of those development time doing the "Hedgehog Engine 2" Which is NOWHERE as good as the "Hedgehog Engine 1" that was used for Unleashed...
And as for the general engine...What did they do?
THEY MODIFIED THE ****ING ENGINE FROM LOST WORLD TO MAKE A BOOST GAME.
When they have a perfectly good and wonderful engine with Generation.

Why do I feel Sega went full ****** again by loosing the generation engine?

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Issue with modern sonic gameplay currently is that sega has to make expensive gorgeous assets for stages sonic runs through in 1 minute

Which goes to show boost gameplay despite like by people cant really work as a focus point for future games.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Did some rough maths and that'd be more than 25 female characters in one go to make things equal. Not that there isn't a lot of female characters to draw from but I have my doubts...

You can go ahead and discount existing characters that are neither male nor female, like Luigi.

 

[Munomario777]

Well, they spent the first two years making a new engine for graphics called the Hedgehog Engine as well as for planning, if you don't mind me pointing it out. So it was moreso 2 years.

They were given ~four years total to make the game, all said and done – regardless of whether or not they spent the first two years of that wisely.

 

[LittleMissEevee]

kirby should get his suicide back and forward throws back, but harder to escape like as percent rises escaping his throw becomes much harder

 

[Lyndis_]

I have a good and laughable one.

The fact that these have 50, 90, and 185 likes is concerning considering Marcus has done nothing but spread misinformation and take credit for other's info.

I can't believe they're still posting, honestly.

 

[LancerStaff]

The forward special is, in some respects, one of the most unique moves in the entire game and it's based on the projections being stake-like. Couldn't exactly have that with Springman.
Also neutral special, while not totally mechanically unique, makes a lot of visual sense with the transformation and I can't think of anything else a character could do with the same practical effect that would make as much sense.
I find it weird that Corrin's getting flak for their design when it's honestly one of the better ones in the series and I say that as someone who doesn't even remotely care about recent Fire Emblem titles.

There’s a weapon Springman can use that’s a long range stabber... There’s also a weapon that’s a one-two projectile and physical attack. Sounds mighty familiar...

>Is a better Ike
>Referring to character that plays literally nothing like Ike
I mean, if you don't like Corrin that's one thing, but at least try to use good reasons.

Hatebases don't really mean anything, but let's face it. Corrin far different from any other Fire Emblem character on the roster, far more different than Roy or Lucina are to Marth.

Corrin has some wiggle room before she gets cut. There's also nothing saying that he needs to add another this game. I'll leave it there and just say that Corrin really isn't as bad as some make her out to be.

Most people are just mad because they think Corrin took a valued newcomer spot away from their newcomer of choice (not saying that's why you don't like her) but it's simply not true.

Corrin plays so little like Ike that... All the Ike mains dropped him for Corrin. Huh, imagine that. Ike is also got like bottom tier usage even though he’s bottom of mid at worst.

Corrin is a generic and uninspired blob of a character. You’ve done nothing to convince me otherwise.

A character that left a sour taste in the mouths of Smash fans and FE fans alike at that. Why include them when they could make Roy again, who would be easier, or attempt to avoid the FE problem entirely?

 

[SmashChu]

That's fair to an extent, I suppose. But I'm also of the mindset that it's too early to really determine the longevity of third parties, considering we've only had two entries with third parties up to this point. You're absolutely right about the licenses, but again, as of right now we only have Snake and Sonic to go off of, the former of which had many outside issues with Konami and Kojima not in Sakurai's control and the other pretty much being more likely to return that some of Nintendo's own first party characters.

The Konami/Kojima thing is overblown and likely have no effect on Snake in Smash. Kojima was a VP on a 4 year contract. The idea for Kojima to make PT was suggested by Konami higher ups. The drama didn't become public until about 6 months after the game came out and was likely due to issues with MGSV (budget and time). Up until then, Kojima and Konami were riding high. There was an interview (that I'd have to find), where Kojima noted Sakurai didn't approach him. I've posted this info before but I'd have to go find it.

Oh- NOW it makes sense, I see- so since he work as a translator there, he probably have some souce for that, so there a big chance neither Sora/Geno are in, or maybe one of them are in. Basically we're in the dark.

Though, would it break any NDA if he dissmissed any character as not being in? Especially since there is probably no contract except if Cloud is back?

My guess would be both since, if one of the two was in there I don't think he'd deconfirm it outright. Speculation on my part. Probably doesn't break NDA since if a character isn't in a game there would be no NDA. I also don't know the full extent of his possition.

Intriguing...

It will be up tonight, at least the version without the spicy comments from the Reddit community. He also posts a lot of a SC forum but its too hard to go through all the comments.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

You can go ahead and discount existing characters that are neither male nor female, like Luigi.

[ignores obvious joke]

I did. Including ambiguous ones would push the number loser to 40.

 

[CannonStreak]

They were given ~four years total to make the game, all said and done – regardless of whether or not they spent the first two years of that wisely.

Yeah, but to me, two years of game development and two years of Hedgehog engine 2 making are still different in my book. Never was trying to make it look better, either.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Turning into a dragon is a fancy visual. Their range outside of a few moves is average.

Wasn’t counting clones. Kinda thought that was obvious...

Let’s be real here. Nothing Corrin does is unique to the character. Hell, you could slap Springman over the moveset and very little would change, and it would still fit.

How can you say Corrin is the most uninspired when almost ALL of Bayonetta's moves are more or less carbon copies from her games? (Not hating on Bayonetta, but her moves from her games are almost like copy paste)

 

[Fenriraga]

The Konami/Kojima thing is overblown and likely have no effect on Snake in Smash. Kojima was a VP on a 4 year contract. The idea for Kojima to make PT was suggested by Konami higher ups. The drama didn't become public until about 6 months after the game came out and was likely due to issues with MGSV (budget and time). Up until then, Kojima and Konami were riding high. There was an interview (that I'd have to find), where Kojima noted Sakurai didn't approach him. I've posted this info before but I'd have to go find it.

My guess would be both since, if one of the two was in there I don't think he'd deconfirm it outright. Speculation on my part. Probably doesn't break NDA since if a character isn't in a game there would be no NDA. I also don't know the full extent of his possition.


It will be up tonight, at least the version without the spicy comments from the Reddit community. He also posts a lot of a SC forum but its too hard to go through all the comments.

Ah, right, no need to dig that up, I do recall that quote from Kojima.

So yeah, as I said, fair enough points, but I still just feel like it's one game too early to really determine the stance of third party characters. Just have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Corrin plays nothing like Ike. Projectile, tipper/sweetspot mechanic, radically different ****ing moveset in general...

They don't even occupy the same niche as each other, let alone playstyle characteristics.

But please, go on.

Smooth Criminal