Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[APC99]

I don't see how the other zelda ATs (except maybe tingle) are not more iconic than Skull Kid. I wouldn't mind him but I would choose impa ghirahim or midna any day or year.

Majora's Mask. Cult classic title. Direct sequel to the biggest N64 game of all time. The mask itself is one of the most iconic items in the series, besides the Master Sword, Hylian Shield and the ocarina. It also helps that when Brawl had their Smash poll, Skull Kid was voted #1 out of all characters.

I'm not undermining Impa, Midna or Ghirahim, I've mentioned recently how cool the latter two could be, but while I could see arguments for their icon status to Zelda and Nintendo fans, Skull Kid is extremely recognizable outside of the Nintendo fanbase.

 

[Deleted member]

It also helps that when Brawl had their Smash poll, Skull Kid was voted #1 out of all characters.

.....you're not talking about that fanpoll VGTribune did for Smash 4 back in 2012 where Dunsparce was a highly voted gag option, are you?

 

[APC99]

.....you're not talking about that fanpoll VGTribune did for Smash 4 back in 2012 where Dunsparce was a highly voted gag option, are you?

...Huh. Apparently I am. Could've sworn I heard otherwise. Probably should've checked my sources before I got all snarky.

Welp, I guess I'll do the proper thing, acknowledge I was wrong, apologize, and then retreat to the shadows, vowing vengeance against those with differing opinions.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Captain Toad makes so much sense to me. Not only had he now appeared in a whole bunch of games, but has also starred in his own.

Plus, he's still that recognisable Red Toad.

I really wish I understood why the hell people think Captain Toad is the best representation of Toad.

I thought the reason people wanted Toad was because he's an iconic video game character, so why use this specific interpretation of him as apposed to the standard one that everyone recognizes? There's no reason Toad can't have the abilities that Captain Toad has without just being Toad. As if Captain Toad had an abundance of unique abilities. The only one I can think of is a pick axe which is basically an item in Super Smash Bros already.

I really don't get it. Because he appeared in his own game? So now everyone who appears in their own game is suddenly worthy of being a Super Smash Bros character?

It's another case of fans sacrificing a character's identity in favor of a desperate excuse to give them merits and a decent move set. Except in this case, Captain Toad doesn't offer anything better than normal Toad, let alone anything at all.

People using Captain Toad in place of Toad just tells me that they don't believe Toad is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member]

...Huh. Apparently I am. Could've sworn I heard otherwise. Probably should've checked my sources before I got all snarky.

Welp, I guess I'll do the proper thing, acknowledge I was wrong, apologize, and then retreat to the shadows, vowing vengeance against those with differing opinions.

Heh, it's fine.

The only reason I even said anything was because Skull Kid being the most requested character for Brawl didn't look right to me for some reason....

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Keep in mind, everyone, relevance is a very big deal for first party newcomers who aren't throwback picks from the 80s. If you want to look for potential Zelda newcomers, you're best off looking at Breath of the Wild.

Except there aren't any. If it had any, I'd have heard of them by now. If we're going beyond the actual main cast (Link, Zelda, Ganon) we might as well just go for the ones that are popular like Skull Kid & Ghirahim.

 

[Opossum]

I really wish I understood why the hell people think Captain Toad is the best representation of Toad.

I thought the reason people wanted Toad was because he's an iconic video game character, so why use this specific interpretation of him as apposed to the standard one that everyone recognizes? There's no reason Toad can't have the abilities that Captain Toad has without just being Toad. As if Captain Toad had an abundance of unique abilities. The only one I can think of is a pick axe which is basically an item in Super Smash Bros already.

I really don't get it. Because he appeared in his own game? So now everyone who appears in their own game is suddenly worthy of being a Super Smash Bros character?

It's another case of fans sacrificing a character's identity in favor of a desperate excuse to give them merits and a decent move set. Except in this case, Captain Toad doesn't offer anything better than normal Toad, let alone anything at all.

People using Captain Toad in place of Toad just tells me that they don't believe Toad is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

A few reasons, really.

For a lot of people it helps to have a single entity to rally behind, as opposed to a species. Add to that that Captain Toad could also use his pick axe (to aid in move variety and to help compensate for Toad's lack of reach) and headlamp (for a special involving blinding his foes, for example) and he'd offer things regular Toad wouldn't be able to.

There's nothing normal Toads can do that Captain Toad can't, except have more limited jump height. Normal Toads, however, would lose access to the things only Captain Toad can do. Because if they used things like the pick axe or headlamp for only one move, why wouldn't they make it Captain Toad to begin with?

 

[Kirbeh]

I really wish I understood why the hell people think Captain Toad is the best representation of Toad.

I thought the reason people wanted Toad was because he's an iconic video game character, so why use this specific interpretation of him as apposed to the standard one that everyone recognizes? There's no reason Toad can't have the abilities that Captain Toad has without just being Toad. As if Captain Toad had an abundance of unique abilities. The only one I can think of is a pick axe which is basically an item in Super Smash Bros already.

I really don't get it. Because he appeared in his own game? So now everyone who appears in their own game is suddenly worthy of being a Super Smash Bros character?

It's another case of fans sacrificing a character's identity in favor of a desperate excuse to give them merits and a decent move set. Except in this case, Captain Toad doesn't offer anything better than normal Toad, let alone anything at all.

People using Captain Toad in place of Toad just tells me that they don't believe Toad is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

Or you know, some people just ended up preferring Captain Toad...

It all comes down to preference. Saying people are sacrificing the character's identity because they have a different opinion seems kind of petty. They're not even the same character so no identity is being overwritten in the first place.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Except there aren't any. If it had any, I'd have heard of them by now. If we're going beyond the actual main cast (Link, Zelda, Ganon) we might as well just go for the ones that are popular like Skull Kid & Ghirahim.

Well, there's always Sidon. After all...

Spoiler: slight BotW spoilers

​

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

People using Bandanna Dee in place of Waddle Dee just tells me that they don't believe Waddle Dee is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member]

There's nothing normal Toads can do that Captain Toad can't, except jump because White Toad Can't Jump

And, you know, be able to move faster than a slug. :V

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Also Mario Kart/Classic Mario platformer items

 

[Kirbeh]

People using Bandanna Dee in place of Waddle Dee just tells me that they don't believe Waddle Dee is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

To be fair, there is an individual named after the species, which is the one I assume they were referring to.

 

[Opossum]

And, you know, be able to move faster than a slug. :V

I could see him getting a slight speed boost in Smash. Something like Little Mac's jump height with Robin's speed, but with really powerful moves and maybe super armor with some moves/decreased damage if hit from behind (backpack armor, man).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

People using Bandanna Dee in place of Waddle Dee just tells me that they don't believe Waddle Dee is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

In all fairness, Waddle Dees are the Goombas of the Kirby franchise, while Bandana Dee seems to be the odd one of the species who can actually fight.

Heck, he's even playable in some Kirby games, like Return to Dream Land.

 

[Deleted member]

I could see him getting a slight speed boost in Smash. Something like Little Mac's jump height with Robin's speed, but with really powerful moves and maybe super armor with some moves/decreased damage if hit from behind (backpack armor, man).

Basically be the opposite of Mewtwo (a large lightweight); a small heavyweight. :V

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

To be fair, there is an individual named after the species, which is the one I assume they were referring to.

Toad? From what I've gathered over the past several years that's not actually the case.

 

[Kirbeh]

Toad? From what I've gathered over the past several years that's not actually the case.

It actually is as far I as know.

Toad is an individual with a very unfortunate name, similar to how the green Yoshi we always see is a specific Yoshi...named Yoshi.

The Toad from Wario's Woods, Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario 3D World and the Mario Kart & Mario Tennis series are the same Toad iirc.

 

[Deleted member]

The whole "is there actually a Toad named 'Toad'" thing is another can of worms I don't particularly feel like opening up again. :V

Too many inconsistencies that make a definitive "yes" or "no" near impossible to claim, especially in regards to "if yes, which of the Toads that appear in -insert game- is "Toad"?"

Such as claims that Captain Toad is "Toad" and others that a different Toad in the same game is "Toad".

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The Toad from Wario's Woods, Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario 3D World and the Mario Kart & Mario Tennis series are the same Toad iirc.

Can't be.

In SMB2 and 3D World, he's blue. In every other game, he's red.

 

[Kirbeh]

Can't be.

In SMB2 and 3D World, he's blue. In every other game, he's red.

It's inconsistent and confusing, but that's my understanding. His SMB2 art depicts him with a red cap, but his sprite is blue because of some graphical issues. His original coloring was restored in Super Mario Advance.

As to why he's blue in 3D World, your guess is as good as mine, though I assume it was possibly meant as a callback to the blue sprite from SMB2 given how much of an inspiration that game was for 3D World.

Original NES sprite

Super Mario Advance

Spoiler

And making things even more confusing is that the Blue Toad from the New Super Mario Bros. series is not Toad either.

For individuals of the species there's Toad (Red, but blue twice), Blue Toad and Yellow Toad, who all need either better names or additional ways to differentiate them. And then Captain Toad, Toadette and Toadsworth, who thankfully have proper names/titles and distinguishing features aside from color.

 

[Wolfie557]

I agree with both the Toad arguments. But I think a general Toad movset would be far better than a Captain Toad based one.

Majora's Mask. Cult classic title. Direct sequel to the biggest N64 game of all time. The mask itself is one of the most iconic items in the series, besides the Master Sword, Hylian Shield and the ocarina. It also helps that when Brawl had their Smash poll, Skull Kid was voted #1 out of all characters.

I'm not undermining Impa, Midna or Ghirahim, I've mentioned recently how cool the latter two could be, but while I could see arguments for their icon status to Zelda and Nintendo fans, Skull Kid is extremely recognizable outside of the Nintendo fanbase.

I really don't know how skull kid could be more recognizable outside of ninty fans and not be in roughly the same boat. How could one even tell something like that.

Maybe Skull kid is more iconic...tho Midna is also very iconic and TP sold more than Majoras Mask or Skyward Sword.

The Zelda series is probably one of the hardest to predict when it comes to smash...at least to me. I think unless sakurai decides that he/his team wants a newcomer for Zelda and decides uniqueness/moveset more important than relevancy (which imo it is) then the Zelda ATs will either stay as ATs or be downgraded.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The Moon is a meme which is obviously a 10/10 reason to include Skull Kid

EDIT: But what if we included the Happy Mask Salesman?
"You've met a terrible fate, haven't you" has transcended to gaming as a whole and we obviously need the next Legend of Zelda representant to be the father of this famous quote despite his moveset potential having nothing to do with those things!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

People using Bandanna Dee in place of Waddle Dee just tells me that they don't believe Waddle Dee is a good enough character to be playable in Super Smash Bros. So if that's the case he shouldn't appear in any form whatsoever.

Epic fail, dude. Bandana Dee appears in like every Kirby game as a main character. And his official name is "Waddle Dee".

It's not some persona of Waddle Dee. It's just a piece of clothing used to identify him as a separate character. But even then, I don't think that's a good enough excuse for him to be a newcomer.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

The Moon is a meme which is obviously a 10/10 reason to include Skull Kid

EDIT: But what if we included the Happy Mask Salesman?
"You've met a terrible fate, haven't you" has transcended to gaming as a whole and we obviously need the next Legend of Zelda representant to be the father of this famous quote despite his moveset potential having nothing to do with those things!

What's his Final Smash? Dropping the moon on the stage?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Or you know, some people just ended up preferring Captain Toad...

It all comes down to preference. Saying people are sacrificing the character's identity because they have a different opinion seems kind of petty. They're not even the same character so no identity is being overwritten in the first place.

It all comes down to preference?

Since when has that been the criteria for accurately predicting characters? Does Sakurai just go to Smashboards when he needs to make a decision about a character?

 

[Kirbeh]

It all comes down to preference?

Since when has that been the criteria for accurately predicting characters? Does Sakurai just go to Smashboards when he needs to make a decision about a character?

Your original post had nothing to do with actual predictions, nor did my response to you.

You were complaining about others favoring Captain Toad to Toad. Your post makes reference to whether you see a character as worthy for Smash. All I was saying, is that people have differing opinions on which Toad they'd like or see as "worthy".

 

[TheLastJinjo]

A few reasons, really.

For a lot of people it helps to have a single entity to rally behind, as opposed to a species.

Thus proving my point that Toad is not worthy of inclusion. So if Toad's not worthy, then there's no way that CAPTAIN Toad is. Being in his own game is the only excuse I've ever heard. I mean Toad & Dixie Kong appear in their own games too.

Add to that that Captain Toad could also use his pick axe (to aid in move variety and to help compensate for Toad's lack of reach) and headlamp (for a special involving blinding his foes, for example) and he'd offer things regular Toad wouldn't be able to.

Why can't Toad do those things?

There's nothing normal Toads can do that Captain Toad can't

So you're argument for Captain Toad is that he has LESS abilities???

Normal Toads, however, would lose access to the things only Captain Toad can do.

Why?

Because if they used things like the pick axe or headlamp for only one move, why wouldn't they make it Captain Toad to begin with?

Because Toad is a more recognizable character. I don't know what about that couldn't be more clear. Toad actually has merits. Captain Toad doesn't. It makes more sense to use Toad and add Captain Toad's abilities to his arsenal. The fact that Captain Toad is Toad is the only reason anybody wants him to begin with. Why don't we just make Fire Mario and Mappy into separate characters?

Your original post had nothing to do with actual predictions, nor did my response to you.

You were complaining about others favoring Captain Toad to Toad. Your post makes reference to whether you see a character as worthy for Smash. All I was saying, is that people have differing opinions on which Toad they'd like or see as "worthy".

Sorry if worthy implied subjectiveness regarding my opinion of the character. I meant to imply they have realistic merits.

 

[Kirbeh]

Thus proving my point that Toad is not worthy of inclusion. So if Toad's not worthy, then there's no way that CAPTAIN Toad is. Being in his own game is the only excuse I've ever heard. I mean Toad & Dixie Kong appear in their own games too.

Because Toad is a more recognizable character. I don't know what about that couldn't be more clear. Toad actually has merits. Captain Toad doesn't. It makes more sense to use Toad and add Captain Toad's abilities to his arsenal. The fact that Captain Toad is Toad is the only reason anybody wants him to begin with. Why don't we just make Fire Mario and Mappy into separate characters?

Toad can potentially be given some of Captain Toad's abilities and vice versa. You're once again complaining about other people's preferences. If you prefer, and believe that Toad is a much better choice than C. Toad, that's perfectly fine, but you need to learn to respect and not be upset by other people's opinions.

Both characters have merits. You just don't like one, and that's okay. Just saying it's also okay for people to like the other more.

 

[Deleted member]

Speaking of all this "which Toad is the one Toad" and Waddle/Bandana Dee stuff, isn't part of a species which shares its name with him as well?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Speaking of all this "which Toad is the one Toad" and Waddle/Bandana Dee stuff, isn't part of a species which shares its name with him as well?

The Meta-Knights is the name of his personal squad, if I recall.

Also, he's literally a blue Kirby with yellow eyes.

 

[Opossum]

Thus proving my point that Toad is not worthy of inclusion. So if Toad's not worthy, then there's no way that CAPTAIN Toad is. Being in his own game is the only excuse I've ever heard. I mean Toad & Dixie Kong appear in their own games too.


Why can't Toad do those things?


So you're argument for Captain Toad is that he has LESS abilities???


Why?


Because Toad is a more recognizable character. I don't know what about that couldn't be more clear. Toad actually has merits. Captain Toad doesn't. It makes more sense to use Toad and add Captain Toad's abilities to his arsenal. The fact that Captain Toad is Toad is the only reason anybody wants him to begin with. Why don't we just make Fire Mario and Mappy into separate characters?


Sorry if worthy implied subjectiveness regarding my opinion of the character. I meant to imply they have realistic merits.

Toad doesn't become less recognizable by putting on a hat and backpack, and if you want REGULAR Toad to use those things, that makes no sense. Captain Toad using things from the Toad species is fine, but a generic one using Captain Toad's tools rings false. If it uses the stuff at all, just make it the Captain.

 

[Kirbeh]

Speaking of all this "which Toad is the one Toad" and Waddle/Bandana Dee stuff, isn't part of a species which shares its name with him as well?

Like Unicorn said, MK is a member of Kirby's species while the Meta Knights are his team. Don't think we've actually ever known what species they are though. Whatever happened to them anyway? They haven't been used in over a decade. Correct me if I'm wrong though, not too familiar with Kirby.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

= very large species just sayin. Captain Toad is completely fine and so is regular Toad. A version of the character should just get in the ****ing game already. Can we all agree on that?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Like Unicorn said, MK is a member of Kirby's species while the Meta Knights are his team. Don't think we've actually ever known what species they are though. Whatever happened to them anyway? They haven't been used in over a decade. Correct me if I'm wrong though, not too familiar with Kirby.

The original four from Super Star have a cameo in Planet Robobot, actually.

 

[APC99]

The Moon is a meme which is obviously a 10/10 reason to include Skull Kid

EDIT: But what if we included the Happy Mask Salesman?
"You've met a terrible fate, haven't you" has transcended to gaming as a whole and we obviously need the next Legend of Zelda representant to be the father of this famous quote despite his moveset potential having nothing to do with those things!

Honestly, I forgot the moon was even a meme. I was referring to the fact that, you know, the whole "three days and then the moon drops" is the whole plot of Majora's Mask, and probably the most well-known feat that Skull Kid performs is dropping the moon on Termina.

And that's not even why I want him to be playable. I want a dark magic user, or a trickster-type character in Smash. For all of the light magic wielders, we've got, what? Ganon's magic fists? Robin's Down Special? Bayonetta? Skull Kid fits that bill to me, a character who would never lay a finger on his foe, but rather floats there as he commands the world around him to take his opponents out for him. All of his dirty work would be done by the fairies Tatl and Tael, or his puppets, or whatever dark curse he calls upon. Giant bursts of darkness around him, firing laser beams from his eyes, teleporting away from your attack only to drop a meteor on your head. That's something no other character can offer. I really like those malevolent trickster-types (Marvel's Loki, Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls, any literary "deal with the devil"), and that's something not yet in Smash.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Toad doesn't become less recognizable by putting on a hat and backpack

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I said it doesn't make sense to use a less recognizable version of a character as apposed to the more recognizable universal standard form of a character. You know, the one that has a greater history and more appearances in games. The one that actually earned his place.

and if you want REGULAR Toad to use those things, that makes no sense.

You're right. That's SO absurd. Next thing you know, Ness is gonna use PK Fire and Pac-Man is gonna have moves from Mappy. That'd be like if Mario had F.L.U.D.D. for one of his moves, but didn't wear it at all times.

If Duck Hunt can't have a can from Hogan's Alley, then there's no way that Toad can use stuff from a game that he was in.

Toad having abilities from games where Toad has those abilities is just crazy. If Mario is gonna shoot fireballs, he might as well just be Fire Mario.

 

[Kirbeh]

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I said it doesn't make sense to use a less recognizable version of a character as apposed to the more recognizable universal standard form of a character. You know, the one that has a greater history and more appearances in games. The one that actually earned his place.


You're right. That's SO absurd. Next thing you know, Ness is gonna use PK Fire and Pac-Man is gonna have moves from Mappy. That'd be like if Mario had F.L.U.D.D. for one of his moves, but didn't wear it at all times.

If Duck Hunt can't have a can from Hogan's Alley, then there's no way that Toad can use stuff from a game that he was in.

Toad having abilities from games where Toad has those abilities is just crazy. If Mario is gonna shoot fireballs, he might as well just be Fire Mario.

And Captain Toad is incapable of earning his place or being a decent character? He doesn't have the history of the original Toad, but you continue to claim he has no merit. If that were the case, he wouldn't have gotten his own game. Is that single game the sole reason people want him in? Do people believe Treasure Tracker automatically makes him deserving? No.

Editing this in for clarity; Obviously Treasure Tracker is where his support comes from as that's where he's actually a major character, but my point was, that he now has merit, and the fact he has a game isn't the reason people want him. People liked what the game offered and think C. Toad could make an interesting character because of it.

It's not, "Oh, "x" has a game now, they should be in Smash!" It's the fact that people found Treasure Tracker interesting. If people didn't think the game offered anything compelling, we more than likely wouldn't be discussing Captain Toad vs Toad to begin with.

People genuinely like Captain Toad and believe he has potential and the fact he did get his own game is still notable as he was a very minor character previously. And which characters are "deserving" or "worthy" is subjective. Why does that bother you so much? As I've said before, some people prefer Toad, others prefer Captain Toad. They both have merit and people support either/or for different reasons.

Second point is fair though, I completely agree. Toad borrowing from C. Toad would be fine, and honestly, I'd take a mixed character like that. Then they could go the Bowser Jr. route and include Toadette, Captain Toad (w/o the backpack), Blue Toad, Yellow Toad, etc. as costumes.

 

[Luminario]

Honestly, I forgot the moon was even a meme. I was referring to the fact that, you know, the whole "three days and then the moon drops" is the whole plot of Majora's Mask, and probably the most well-known feat that Skull Kid performs is dropping the moon on Termina.

And that's not even why I want him to be playable. I want a dark magic user, or a trickster-type character in Smash. For all of the light magic wielders, we've got, what? Ganon's magic fists? Robin's Down Special? Bayonetta? Skull Kid fits that bill to me, a character who would never lay a finger on his foe, but rather floats there as he commands the world around him to take his opponents out for him. All of his dirty work would be done by the fairies Tatl and Tael, or his puppets, or whatever dark curse he calls upon. Giant bursts of darkness around him, firing laser beams from his eyes, teleporting away from your attack only to drop a meteor on your head. That's something no other character can offer. I really like those malevolent trickster-types (Marvel's Loki, Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls, any literary "deal with the devil"), and that's something not yet in Smash.

It's likely that Ashley would have a moveset with mostly dark magic and curses, though the evil trickster archetype is definitely Skull Kid's forte.You're right though we need more dark magic.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I said it doesn't make sense to use a less recognizable version of a character as apposed to the more recognizable universal standard form of a character. You know, the one that has a greater history and more appearances in games. The one that actually earned his place.

Why do you dislike Captain Toad this much? Cap got his own game recently and you make it sound like his only appearance was still just cameos in Mario Galaxy. Also people recognise Cap Toad as a Toad, it's not like he drastically changes looks as he puts on the helmet and backpack.

 

[Delzethin]

A few reasons, really.

For a lot of people it helps to have a single entity to rally behind, as opposed to a species. Add to that that Captain Toad could also use his pick axe (to aid in move variety and to help compensate for Toad's lack of reach) and headlamp (for a special involving blinding his foes, for example) and he'd offer things regular Toad wouldn't be able to.

There's nothing normal Toads can do that Captain Toad can't, except have more limited jump height. Normal Toads, however, would lose access to the things only Captain Toad can do. Because if they used things like the pick axe or headlamp for only one move, why wouldn't they make it Captain Toad to begin with?

That's the thing, mainly. Captain Toad has a distinct identity and personality, and has his own unique tools and abilities he can use on top of just about anything the Toad species can already do. His potential is that much more compelling compared to just adding a generic Toad for legacy's sake.