Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

"Beast Ganon" is not some different creature; it's literally a different design for the same creature.

The only reason you people refer to the TP Ganon as "Beast Ganon" is because that's how Ganondorf's Final Smash was translated.
Instead of using the full boss title of "Dark Beast" Ganon like in TP (like how Ganondorf's is "Dark Lord" Ganondorf) and in the Japanese release of Brawl and Smash 4, it just got shortened to "Beast Ganon" for whatever reason.

 

[Johnknight1]

Ganon is only a 'good' choice because they aren't gonna give Ganondorf anything else. Sure he's the main villain also, but he might also be too hard to program just like Ridley, 2big.

Even if Ganondorf had a unique moveset or unique elements (see Project M 3.5/3.6 Ganondorf), Beast/Pig Ganon still has good qualities to be its' own character. In any situation however, Beast/Pig Ganon would be a very out of left field pick.

Character size isn't an issue, because size is always scaled. Neither would be the body composition.

Impa is easily the best choice for the long run, as she's not a one-off and will continue to make appearances in Zelda. Maybe more often as young if she's finally made playable.

Impa does have that going for her. However, you routinely miss the best selling point: she would make for a quality clone! Sheik is one of the best designed characters in Smash, and having a clone of Sheik with different properties and a few different moves is a fascinating concept.

I think you aren't reaching as big of an audience here with your idea because you aren't bringing that up more.

Still, the design inconsistencies (as APC99 points out) are Impa's biggest hurdle. Impa is a tall and plump old lady in the handheld games, a middle aged buff and tall Amazon-esk woman in Ocarina of Time, serves a similar role in Skyward Sword with an entirely different visual design and outfit (as well as a thinner physique), and is a skinny and small old woman in Breath of the Wild. It is sort of a weird jump all over the place with her.

That doesn't disqualify Impa, but I think that severely limits Impa's chances, and limits Impa's only chance of being in Smash in the role of the Sheik clone. Which if I'm being honest, that is probably the best role for Impa anyways.

 

[Kirbeh]

"Beast Ganon" is not some different creature; it's literally a different design for the same creature.

The only reason you people refer to the TP Ganon as "Beast Ganon" is because that's how Ganondorf's Final Smash was translated.
Instead of using the full boss title of "Dark Beast" Ganon like in TP (like how Ganondorf's is "Dark Lord" Ganondorf) and in the Japanese release of Brawl and Smash 4, it just got shortened to "Beast Ganon" for whatever reason.

Sure, but we use those naming conventions to make it easier to differentiate which version of Ganon we're referring to. We know it's not different, but it makes it a lot clearer when talking about the many forms Ganon takes.

 

[Johnknight1]

Wing span was only part of the problem. And honestly, that particular issue only truly applies to the Other M design (as in, the design that would have been the main point of reference in his hypothetical Smash 4 debut) not counting any of the cyborg states (notably, Meta Ridley's wingspan, while still huge in Brawl, is only a fraction of what it was in Metroid Prime).

The real biggest hurdle of the Other M design for Ridley is it is an abomination that looks as stupid as it does ridiculous.

The Prime-esk Ridley and Meta Ridley in Brawl looked perfectly fine.

"Beast Ganon" is not some different creature; it's literally a different design for the same creature.

The only reason you people refer to the TP Ganon as "Beast Ganon" is because that's how Ganondorf's Final Smash was translated.
Instead of using the full boss title of "Dark Beast" Ganon like in TP (like how Ganondorf's is "Dark Lord" Ganondorf) and in the Japanese release of Brawl and Smash 4, it just got shortened to "Beast Ganon" for whatever reason.

We are mostly differentiating the title because of the drastic design differences, namely Ganon in Twilight Princess being on all fours, whereas Ganon otherwise stands on just two legs.

The difference between which stance is used is very big, and would effect almost every element of how the character is approached. A character on all fours in fighting games usually relies quite a lot on physical animal-like attacks relying on power and movement, whereas a character standing on two feet... can do anything.

Not to say Ganon can't use both stances (although one or the other would need to be the main stance), but that the distinction feels necessary as a result of this.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Isn't the Ganon in FSA a reincarnation and not the exact same character we see in all the other Zelda games?

Never has there been an extreme and jarring case of scaling (within the same series, so no, Olimar isn't a counterexample)

But in Pikmin 2 we see that Olimar is about the size of R.O.B.'s eye socket

 

[Deleted member]

But in Pikmin 2 we see that Olimar is about the size of R.O.B.'s eye socket

Well played. :V

But as Brawl shows, R.O.B.s come in all sorts of sizes. :V

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Well played. :V

But as Brawl shows, R.O.B.s come in all sorts of sizes. :V

As do turtles

 

[Curious Villager]

"Beast Ganon" is not some different creature; it's literally a different design for the same creature.

The only reason you people refer to the TP Ganon as "Beast Ganon" is because that's how Ganondorf's Final Smash was translated.
Instead of using the full boss title of "Dark Beast" Ganon like in TP (like how Ganondorf's is "Dark Lord" Ganondorf) and in the Japanese release of Brawl and Smash 4, it just got shortened to "Beast Ganon" for whatever reason.

I'm pretty sure everyone's very well aware their all the same guy, their mainly referring to the different design forms he has taken and which form people are mainly referring to play style and design wise so everyone's on the same page.

 

[Deleted member]

As do turtles

....first thing that popped in my head. Sorry. :V

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Pretty much. Beast Ganon is in Smash right now. It has its own unique name due to the design.

Albeit, the only possible Ganons to be different at best might be Puppet Ganon(not a literal Ganon, just magically created) and the one in FSA.

That said, when I mean "a different entity", I'm just talking about design and how the characters are approached in fighting skills. Moblin Ganon, Beast Ganon, and Puppet Ganon are vastly different overall. Doesn't matter if they're the same person(so are Link and Young Link in Melee specifically), the point is how they play and how they can be differentiated. Moblin Ganon doesn't have any traits Beast Ganon has beyond, you know, both being pig-like in some way. That's... it. They both are vastly unique.

Ganon's normal size as a Moblin is very inconsistent, definitely, but it seems he's about large size, nearly twice as much as Young Link in the older games. Making him around Bowser size does work since it's a realistic size for him. OOT's size is more of a "showing off an awesome giant battle and options" more than just sizing him up to show he's somehow supposed to be super huge. It's just like Bowser. They wanted to show off the system's capabilities. Bowser is smaller in canon too, usually about twice as big as Mario. Sometimes he can be huge(and it's said Koopa magic does this, albeit it's supposed to be Kammy or Kamek's depending the series). Anyway, point is, both can have any size and it works fine.

One quick note on Ridley; he actually has been fairly significantly bigger than Samus in canon, almost 3 times her size. So it's understandable that shrinking him might feel odd. Of course, as also noted many times before, it's not just his basic size, there's wingspan and tail being re-sized as well. The biggest hurdle is balancing these factors, not just simply shrinking him, which is quite doable. For instance, Sakurai could base it upon Ridley's NES design(akin to how Mr. Game & Watch is) if they really needed a smaller one. That doesn't mean balancing it will be easy even then.

 

[UserKev]

As far as a Smash reveal showing up at E3, I voted no.

Too unrealistic.

 

[Deleted member]

It has its own unique name due to the design.

No, it has it's "own unique name" because you people gave it one based on a mistranslation.

The true "Beast Ganon" is

Spoiler

The final form of Calamity Ganon; Dark Beast Ganon. Which unlike Twilight Princess' Ganon, "Dark Beast" isn't the boss title.

"Ganon" is already featured in Smash.
He is Ganondorf's Final Smash.
He is not named "Beast Ganon"; that is as much mistranslation as "Meta Ridley" on Pyrosphere.
Smash does not differentiate that "Ganon" from other "Ganons".
Internal data that references the playable Ganondorf uses the file name "GANON"
We will not be getting a secondary "Ganon" as a playable fighter to differentiate from the playable Ganondorf.
End of story.
Move on.

 

[UserKev]

On the topic, I feel Wind Waker Ganondorf should just be selected. I'd solve a lot of problems. He'd be a heavy weight but his sword play would be fast, already wielding two swords that'd add to his uniqueness.

His projectile move would be rubbing dark magic on to his sword and releasing it through a slice wave. Hope you get the memo.

 

[Kirbeh]

On the topic, I feel Wind Waker Ganondorf should just be selected. I'd solve a lot of problems. He'd be a heavy weight but his sword play would be fast, already wielding two swords that'd add to his uniqueness.

His projectile move would be rubbing dark magic on to his sword and releasing it through a slice wave. Hope you get the memo.

Doubles team with Cloud for double Hadangeki shenanigans?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As far as a Smash reveal showing up at E3, I voted no.

Too unrealistic.

It's not that unrealistic. If it's a port, mentioning it or revealing it makes sense. People have been clamouring for it for ages. I agree it's too early for a new game, but not for a port.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I've had my doubts about Toad appearing playable in Super Smash Bros. because of him not being as much of a "character" as most other fighters, but if Super Smash Bros. for Switch is a port with an abundance of inclusions to make up for the lack of a sequel, Toad would honestly make the Mario series feel complete.

I think there's a lot of characters that could be more likely in a port then they would be in a sequel, because priority isn't a huge issue when all of the characters are already completed.

So personally, I'd love to see Toad & Toadette work together as a character. Not as an Ice Climber duo though.

 

[Radical Bones]

I've had my doubts about Toad appearing playable in Super Smash Bros. because of him not being as much of a "character" as most other fighters, but if Super Smash Bros. for Switch is a port with an abundance of inclusions to make up for the lack of a sequel, Toad would honestly make the Mario series feel complete.

I think there's a lot of characters that could be more likely in a port then they would be in a sequel, because priority isn't a huge issue when all of the characters are already completed.

So personally, I'd love to see Toad & Toadette work together as a character. Not as an Ice Climber duo though.

Captain Toad makes so much sense to me. Not only had he now appeared in a whole bunch of games, but has also starred in his own.

Plus, he's still that recognisable Red Toad.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I think the most awkward size changes we've seen in Smash are with the Koopalings.

Lemmy, Iggy and Mortan are about the same size and it looks really weird.

 

[Deleted member]

It's weird now, but they all used to be roughly the same size.

 

[Radical Bones]

I think the most awkward size changes we've seen in Smash are with the Koopalings.

Lemmy, Iggy and Mortan are about the same size and it looks really weird.

Captain Olimar not being smaller still bothers me. Or at least his Pikmin.

I guess it's a hitbox/ visibility issue.

 

[Johnknight1]

Whenever someone says "Smash at E3 sounds unrealistic" despite all the leaks and all the comments from continually accurate leakers, I can't help but think someone telling me in 2005 "Kingdom Hearts III is going to come out more than 12 years after Kingdom Hearts II" sounds like the most unrealistic thing in the world.

But alas, here we are.

Impa most definitely has appeared since then. She was in Skyward Sword, A Link Between Worlds, and Breath of the Wild, and I don't think she even appeared in Twilight Princess at all. Did you mean Midna?

Condensed an edit (where I went on about how Impa is sort of an exception but not really because she's consistently remained a secondary character and never a main character) and left Impa's name in there by mistake.

Should have just left her out as she's a different case than the rest of those characters. However, she is still a secondary character, without a main character role, not much unlike Beedle at this point.

Not saying she doesn't have a shot though. She does, but I think only as a clone.

 

[Delzethin]

Keep in mind, everyone, relevance is a very big deal for first party newcomers who aren't throwback picks from the 80s. If you want to look for potential Zelda newcomers, you're best off looking at Breath of the Wild.

Unless something happens with the Smash Ballot.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Keep in mind, everyone, relevance is a very big deal for first party newcomers who aren't throwback picks from the 80s. If you want to look for potential Zelda newcomers, you're best off looking at Breath of the Wild.

Unless something happens with the Smash Ballot.

It doesn't have to be Breath of the Wild.

It just has to be in the area right before the last Smash Bros released and after it released.

That's the time frame they examine.

So Impa technically has Hyrule Warriors.

Though I doubt that matters much

Really they should just put Impa in cause I want her.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Beedle would be fun if it weren't for the fact he'd need to have a moveset based around selling ware like bait, butterflies and frogs.

I would've preferred a Beedle & Mapfish tag-team but alas, that ship has sailed.

Impa's basically a new character every installment she appears in which limit the chances of Ninjimpa every time Ms. Old Hag rears its ugly head.

Now, Ninja Impa appears less and less, so I think for Impa fans it's accepting the old hag or keep grasping for the straw that is Skyward Sword or a new Young Impa being relevant just as Sakurai decides the roster.

Keep in mind, everyone, relevance is a very big deal for first party newcomers who aren't throwback picks from the 80s. If you want to look for potential Zelda newcomers, you're best off looking at Breath of the Wild.

Unless something happens with the Smash Ballot.

Yes, I think Breath of the Wild is the game to look at for newcomers, but not neccesairly because it's the newest but because it was such a big hit.

That said, I don't think there are that many worthwhile characters in Breath of the Wild to use in Smash.
Kilton would be an ideal pick (He could use the monsters and their guts to introduce BoTW's Cooking mechanic to Smash) if it weren't for the fact he appears so "late" in the game, being more of a secret than a plot relevant character people are more likely to stumble upon, like Impa.

As for plot relevant characters, It'd be a toss-up between one of the Champions (which is hard since you can't really pick one, but not the other), King Rhoam (who has the advantage of appearing so early in the game and the NEStalgia of being "Old Man", but his role is so small he's only seen using an Axe and a Paraglider, and while a flying axe user is an awesome thought, it's a very shallow mechanic with very little room for "special attacks") and Impa, who is imo the best choice for a Breath of the Wild character.
Bottom of the barrel are Purah (with a Sheikah Slate set), Robbie (just to see the old fellah use an Ancient Chainsaw) and Beedle (who has the honor of having "frogs and butterflies" as his moveset potential)

I get really giddy when thinking about the potential of BoTW's Impa using the Sheikah Slate powers (since as Kohga demonstrates, the Magnesis rune at least is inspired by old Sheikah magic)

This is my idea: You know the hat she wears and how there are little metal Sheikah eyes on them?
Now instead of a sword, Impa would create her disjointed hitboxes by using Magnesis on the hat in order to cut opponents with an almost grinder-like hat yoyo.
The Magnesis could give the hat multiple ranges, turning it into a boomerang that can have the range of Marth's sword, but can also turn into a projectile, not unlike Link's boomerang.

That covers Magnesis, although a Special could give the player full control over the hat.

Then there's Stasis, which could find its way in the movesets in multiple ways as well.
As a Special, it could freeze the hat, turning it into a platform.
Stasis could potentionally freeze opponents as well, but like Stasis+ in Breath of the Wild, you don't have the time to build up knockback.
As a normal move it can freeze the hat in order to create a lasting hitbox, not unlike Rosalina's Up Air or Down Air.

Cryonis has multiple uses as well, though it'd require another creative liberty in order to use the Cryonis that Vah Ruta uses as well, which gives Impa access to a spinning block and a spiked ball, both made of ice.
These can be used in her Smashes as a nod to Kohga, who used spiked balls as well.
Of course the classic use of creating an ice pillar can very well be used.

Remote Bombs I really don't care about, but I suppose they can be used in a Smash where Impa creates a bomb and immediately detonates it.
Furthermore, Impa could also skip the bomb part and use the blue explosions throughout her set as well.
Of course it could act as a Down Special.

That covers all the runes, but that's not where Impa's potential stops, as she also has access to the Sheikah Heirloom Orb.
This orb could potentonally be summoned with a Special and would give Impa a new way to try her Stasis and Cryonis.

Then there's Kohga, who was once a Sheikah as well, so it's not weird to assume that Impa can summon a circle of orbs around her as well and most importantly use Magnesis and Stasis on them.

Last but not least, there are the Sheikah weapons in Breath of the Wild, which she could use as well in some moves.

I think that's not only enough potential for one set (Ass-Hattery with Magnesis) but for multiple sets each with their own feel (Blue Explosion Spellcaster, with an added ninja flair with the Sheikah Slate's teleportation) (Orb Fighter, Kohga style) (Classic Sheikah fighter with small weapons and her hat to hide them)

 

[Johnknight1]

Keep in mind, everyone, relevance is a very big deal for first party newcomers who aren't throwback picks from the 80s. If you want to look for potential Zelda newcomers, you're best off looking at Breath of the Wild.

Unless something happens with the Smash Ballot.

The newness of Breath of the Wild is not the reason potential Zelda series newcomers not in Breath of the Wild irrelevant. No, the reason is that Breath of the Wild is a transcendent game, while all the other remotely recent Zelda games aren't anywhere close to that.

In comparison to Breath of the Wild, not a lot of people really care about those games. All the 2D or 3D games are all mostly just somewhat redone variant of what 2D and 3D Zelda games have done for 3 decades/2 decades respectively. They either copied A Link to the Past or Ocarina of Time, only changed the formula a bit, and recycled and repeated. It became mundate and repetitive in a bad way. The challenge stagnated, the series relied on some wonky gimmicks to sell games.

Ultimately Zelda went from mainstream megahits to niche games you put on the back end of your backlog, with an audience that not only shrank but grew less interested and invested in the series as it went along after Ocarina of Time.

Breath of the Wild not only broke that cycle, it shattered it, all while transcending the medium of video games forever in a way only a few dozen games can ever claim to do. It has become a gigantic phenomenon globally, a part of popular culture, and has attracted audiences that haven't played Zelda like no game since Ocarina of Time (if not moreso).

As a result, the vast majority of video game enthusiasts remotely interested in the Zelda franchise will get drawn to Smash the most by characters from Breath of the Wild or its' followups, not characters from games beforehand not in Breath of the Wild.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The awkward thing about Breath of the Wild being such a well-known phenomenon though is the question how much the common folk can recognize from Breath of the Wild.
The Old Man is known from all the teasers and streams that have circulated but someone like Kilton might not be as known as the success of BoTW seems to suggest since he's "late game", as far as that is applicable to this game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It doesn't have to be Breath of the Wild.

It just has to be in the area right before the last Smash Bros released and after it released.

That's the time frame they examine.

So Impa technically has Hyrule Warriors.

Though I doubt that matters much

Really they should just put Impa in cause I want her.

Breath of the Wild still HAS Impa though, and her role might be more fleshed out with the upcoming DLC. I kinda do doubt it, but it has a possibility of course. She has already hinted herself that Link must've remembered her as being much younger. And I thought it was always really weird how the Sheikah tribe didn't have a Champion of their own, despite being one of the most powerful races of Hyrule, especially so in Breath of the Wild with their technology.

It sort of makes sense to go back in time with Breath of the Wild because of it's story. It could give the game another Ocarina of Time double timeline split for example, which I always thought would be likely with Breath of the Wild.

So even if Impa is still old now, it doesn't mean she has to be. She could get a reversal role of Skyward Sword ; old in the beginning, young in the end.

Or we keep it simple and stay with Hyrule Warriors, which got a new release on the 3DS due to massive succes and even Fire Emblem Warriors got made because of how well Hyrule Warriors did. So don't tell me it's not a big deal, because it is. Hyrule Warriors WAS Zelda Wii U, moreso than Breath of the Wild even.

If Decidueye is "more likely" because of Pokken, so should Impa because of Hyrule Warriors. And why Impa? Well, first of all she's the first actual ally of Link, the first playable character besides Link, when it easily could've been Zelda. She's also got a decent role in the game as far as the story goes, and she's the only character in the game not based on one particular game but is actually a mash up between her most popular designs. Also, she's the only playable character outside of Link and Zelda who actually returned in mainsteam Zelda games, which not even Ganondorf could do since Twilight Princess. And after this all, she also has the second most iconic sword of 3D Zelda gaming as her personal weapon; the Biggorron Sword.

And there's also the possibility of Skyward Sword HD; http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/14/zelda-producer-on-skyward-sword-hd-its-definitely-possible . Definitely possible seems quite damn possible to me honestly.

Now even better, after this all, she could even have a 'forced Breath of the Wild' moveset if she HAD to. Give her the Sheikah Slate abilities as Magnesis, Stasis and the barrier attack which both Kogha and Skyward Sword Impa used, and that's pretty much set for her Special Attacks. Then give her a couple of Link's attacks with a 2 handed sword, and some creative liberty or Hyrule Warriors stuff and we good.

In most cases, Impa could easily work as a semi-clone of Sheik, or even Cloud, or using assets of either character to build up from much like Corrin, Bayonetta and Cloud did. She could also be a full clone of Sheik of course, and as Sir Knightlyness Himself already pointed out; that's already an amazing idea on it's own due to how functional the moveset of Sheik is, and how much popularity she gained out of this moveset.

Impa is simply a very safe choice when it comes to Zelda characters, as she will always be around. She just needs to be updated with new looks once in a while. But for now, Hyrule Warriors alone gives her a pretty good design. She looks very similar to the Sheikah characters of Breath of the Wild, especially her granddaughter. So it all fits.

She's a very good choice for a new Zelda character, and we need a new Zelda character pretty damn badly. How come the roster had zero changes since Brawl? Which already had MINIMAL CHANGES compared to Melee. Ganondorf got slower, Young Link got a bigger head, that's basically all that changed... Wow.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Sheik's moveset is so versatile that Impa could easily use the same moves buffed in range and be a hybrid between Sheik and swordknight (except with her limbs)

I think the "iconic" blue Sheikah magiteck effect from BoTW could give her a spellcaster moveset easily, especially if combined with the orb she used to kill the Gate of Time.
This can even be given a ninja vibe with both the teleportation between Shrines serving as inspiration for a move on top of the Gate o Time giving her mobility for a versatile Side B or Up B

 

[Curious Villager]

Pretty much. Beast Ganon is in Smash right now. It has its own unique name due to the design.

Albeit, the only possible Ganons to be different at best might be Puppet Ganon(not a literal Ganon, just magically created) and the one in FSA.

That said, when I mean "a different entity", I'm just talking about design and how the characters are approached in fighting skills. Moblin Ganon, Beast Ganon, and Puppet Ganon are vastly different overall. Doesn't matter if they're the same person(so are Link and Young Link in Melee specifically), the point is how they play and how they can be differentiated. Moblin Ganon doesn't have any traits Beast Ganon has beyond, you know, both being pig-like in some way. That's... it. They both are vastly unique.

Ganon's normal size as a Moblin is very inconsistent, definitely, but it seems he's about large size, nearly twice as much as Young Link in the older games. Making him around Bowser size does work since it's a realistic size for him. OOT's size is more of a "showing off an awesome giant battle and options" more than just sizing him up to show he's somehow supposed to be super huge. It's just like Bowser. They wanted to show off the system's capabilities. Bowser is smaller in canon too, usually about twice as big as Mario. Sometimes he can be huge(and it's said Koopa magic does this, albeit it's supposed to be Kammy or Kamek's depending the series). Anyway, point is, both can have any size and it works fine.

One quick note on Ridley; he actually has been fairly significantly bigger than Samus in canon, almost 3 times her size. So it's understandable that shrinking him might feel odd. Of course, as also noted many times before, it's not just his basic size, there's wingspan and tail being re-sized as well. The biggest hurdle is balancing these factors, not just simply shrinking him, which is quite doable. For instance, Sakurai could base it upon Ridley's NES design(akin to how Mr. Game & Watch is) if they really needed a smaller one. That doesn't mean balancing it will be easy even then.

Ganon's more of a big brute type of character, much like Bowser and DK, body shape wise. So I really don't see the issue at all. As for Ganondorf's Final Smash, if it's a new Smash game, I don't see why his Final Smash can't just be changed to him riding his Dark Horse instead, he's pretty well renowned for that too and has used it before in battle as well.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the issue with Ganon, a lot of villains are portrayed as big in their home games, like you said, this is usually done for the intimidation factor and making the player feel accomplished once they overcome this task with beating them. However in Smash, you don't fight these villains to overcome something (Well other than winning a match I guess) so their scale isn't as much of an important factor, especially since Sakurai has already taken plenty of creative liberties with lots of characters of all shapes and sizes. (again, Pokemon being the most notable example)
Plus you'd be limiting yourself on potential newcomers since a lot of villains, especially the more notable ones, are commonly portrayed as big.

Anyway, that's just a small rant from my part, I'm pretty much done with this whole argument. Take care.

 

[Arcadenik]

The awkward thing about Breath of the Wild being such a well-known phenomenon though is the question how much the common folk can recognize from Breath of the Wild.
The Old Man is known from all the teasers and streams that have circulated but someone like Kilton might not be as known as the success of BoTW seems to suggest since he's "late game", as far as that is applicable to this game.

Yeah, I like the idea of playing as Old Man in Smash.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yeah, I like the idea of playing as Old Man in Smash.

Yes, an axe user with a Paraglider would be sick but then again what would his moves be other than axe slashes and different ways of opening and closing a Paraglider.

I could make a killer normal set, but I draw a blank when it comes to specials

 

[Arcadenik]

Yes, an axe user with a Paraglider would be sick but then again what would his moves be other than axe slashes and different ways of opening and closing a Paraglider.

I could make a killer normal set, but I draw a blank when it comes to specials

B: cooking (healing)
Side+B: paraglider (horizontal recovery)
Up+B: teleport (vertical recovery)
Down+B: perfect guard (counter)
Final Smash: Guardian attacking opponents with the laser eye

Just throwing ideas out there.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

B: cooking (healing)
Side+B: paraglider (horizontal recovery)
Up+B: teleport (vertical recovery)
Down+B: perfect guard (counter)
Final Smash: Guardian attacking opponents with the laser eye

Just throwing ideas out there.

Wait I got this, but I can't think of a Side B

Neutral B: Paraglider
Toggles the Paraglider on and off

Up B: Teleport
He teleports

Down B: Firewood
Throws down a bundle of firewood
If it's struck with the Axe, it becomes a campfire.
This campfire creates updrafts but also damage opponents that come close.
The Old Man can have two firewoods out on the field.

When two are out on the field, the Old Man can press Down B again when he's hit.
If succesful, both campfires will start emitting embers that damage opponents.

(This is a reference to the torches that try to kill Link if he stabs the Old Men in the dungeons)

 

[APC99]

Well, since Smash 3DS / Wii U came out, we've gotten Breath of the Wild, Triforce Heroes, Majora's Mask 3D and Twilight Princess HD. Hyrule Warriors Legends also came out, but that's more Warriors than it is Zelda.

While Breath of the Wild was the most prominent, it's not like it was the only game. Of course, Triforce Heroes has little to nothing to offer character-wise (besides some sweet alternate costumes for Toon Link), and Majora's Mask / Twilight Princess were never going to compete against arguably the biggest and most hyped-up Zelda title in quite some time.

So, yeah, BotW has a decent shot at being THE Zelda game represented by the next Smash. If there was to be a character from that game, I feel like Champion Link would really fit the bill. My only thing is narrowing down all of the Runes, Champion abilities, weapons, game mechanics and everything like that into one single character is kind of insane. Plus, that means half of the Zelda characters would be variations of one idea...

I still will always stand by my opinion that Skull Kid, wielding Majora's Mask, is one of the few Zelda characters outside of the Triforce Trio (Link, Zelda, Ganon) that is iconic enough to appear in Smash as a fighter. I mean, I say the name and instantly, everyone knows what the Final Smash would be.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ganon's more of a big brute type of character, much like Bowser and DK, body shape wise. So I really don't see the issue at all. As for Ganondorf's Final Smash, if it's a new Smash game, I don't see why his Final Smash can't just be changed to him riding his Dark Horse instead, he's pretty well renowned for that too and has used it before in battle as well.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the issue with Ganon, a lot of villains are portrayed as big in their home games, like you said, this is usually done for the intimidation factor and making the player feel accomplished once they overcome this task with beating them. However in Smash, you don't fight these villains to overcome something (Well other than winning a match I guess) so their scale isn't as much of an important factor, especially since Sakurai has already taken plenty of creative liberties with lots of characters of all shapes and sizes. (again, Pokemon being the most notable example)
Plus you'd be limiting yourself on potential newcomers since a lot of villains, especially the more notable ones, are commonly portrayed as big.

Anyway, that's just a small rant from my part, I'm pretty much done with this whole argument. Take care.

I think having Beast Ganon as a Final Smash and playable Moblin Ganon at the same time isn't an issue.

I never said Ganon being in was an issue. I was just pointing out why the size arguments don't work. That said, Ganon being a more reasonable size is a good idea for balance reasons. Being DK/Bowser size is good. I see what you mean by brute force, but he's also a heavy magic user too. It's really only Puppet Ganon and Beast Ganon(TP version) as well as HW's version that's more brute force. Regular Moblin Ganon is actually a magic/weapon user that has power behind his attacks, both magically and physically. I definitely see some brute force, though, just not like DK or Bowser.

However, I can see where balance issues lie. Having too much range and power can be a potent combination. It's easy to figure out an ideal moveset, but making sure it works out in balance is far harder. I think a magical brute(with some range/weapons) is a good style for Moblin Ganon. He's not a mindless beast outside of the Oracle games.

------------------------------

On another note, my favorite Impa is the Oracles version. While it's obvious this one won't get in(mostly due to irrelevancy), she's not "that" old either. She looks a little bit older, just a little over the hill, but has a physically capable body. She could provide a proper heavyweight female user, while having potential for moves among various Impas. SS shows she can clearly be in multiple times(er, I forget if it's strict time travel or something else), so the idea of her using moves from her other versions isn't too farfetched. Much like Link, who started off as a collaboration of abilities, I could see Impa do that as well. Regardless of what physical design they go with.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, since Smash 3DS / Wii U came out, we've gotten Breath of the Wild, Triforce Heroes, Majora's Mask 3D and Twilight Princess HD. Hyrule Warriors Legends also came out, but that's more Warriors than it is Zelda.

While Breath of the Wild was the most prominent, it's not like it was the only game. Of course, Triforce Heroes has little to nothing to offer character-wise (besides some sweet alternate costumes for Toon Link), and Majora's Mask / Twilight Princess were never going to compete against arguably the biggest and most hyped-up Zelda title in quite some time.

So, yeah, BotW has a decent shot at being THE Zelda game represented by the next Smash. If there was to be a character from that game, I feel like Champion Link would really fit the bill. My only thing is narrowing down all of the Runes, Champion abilities, weapons, game mechanics and everything like that into one single character is kind of insane. Plus, that means half of the Zelda characters would be variations of one idea...

I still will always stand by my opinion that Skull Kid, wielding Majora's Mask, is one of the few Zelda characters outside of the Triforce Trio (Link, Zelda, Ganon) that is iconic enough to appear in Smash as a fighter. I mean, I say the name and instantly, everyone knows what the Final Smash would be.

Honestly, Skull Kid would be amazing!! Would not be upset at all if he made it before Impa, as I always thought he'd be an amazing playable character. Shame he missed the boat for Brawl, which was easily the most likely chance he ever had. Then again, relevance is a thing and not a meme... Even if Skull Kid was also present in Twilight Princess (which is also why I supported him, and Midna- although not loudly). He was a pretty minor character unfortunately. But he could've been the first puppeteer character, as that was literally what he did in TP with that flute.

Still agree that Majora's Mask is the best game to base Skull Kid on though. However, Young Link might need to return before that. And am not sure if they can let him coexist with Toon Link.

So yeah, am still thinking Impa is overall the best choice.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think having Beast Ganon as a Final Smash and playable Moblin Ganon at the same time isn't an issue.

I never said Ganon being in was an issue. I was just pointing out why the size arguments don't work. That said, Ganon being a more reasonable size is a good idea for balance reasons. Being DK/Bowser size is good. I see what you mean by brute force, but he's also a heavy magic user too. It's really only Puppet Ganon and Beast Ganon(TP version) as well as HW's version that's more brute force. Regular Moblin Ganon is actually a magic/weapon user that has power behind his attacks, both magically and physically. I definitely see some brute force, though, just not like DK or Bowser.

However, I can see where balance issues lie. Having too much range and power can be a potent combination. It's easy to figure out an ideal moveset, but making sure it works out in balance is far harder. I think a magical brute(with some range/weapons) is a good style for Moblin Ganon. He's not a mindless beast outside of the Oracle games.

Oh no, I was agreeing with you. I'd imagine that Ganon would be a bit like Bowser in that he has raw power with super armor (So he doesn't become a big punching bag) but at the cost of more end lag. The Yuganon fight is probably the best example I can think of for how Ganon would fight as the way he charged his trident in on Link and ends his attack is more or less how I'd imagine his overall balance to be around..

At least for his normal attacks, his special moves would be more based around his magic attacks such as the ones seen in A Link to the Past.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh no, I was agreeing with you. I'd imagine that Ganon would be a bit like Bowser in that he has raw power with super armor (So he doesn't become a big punching bag) but at the cost of more end lag. The Yuganon fight is probably the best example I can think of for how Ganon would fight as the way he charged his trident in on Link and ends his attack is more or less how I'd imagine his overall balance to be around..

I totally misread the earlier post, my bad. I thought you misread who I was referring to as being very hard to balance(being Ridley, not Ganon).

I never got past the Yuga fight that lets me fully get into the second world. >.< Anyway, that sounds good, I mean, if I knew how it worked.

I could see some Trident usage with slight range too. Palutena's twirling staff attacks come to mind for some ideal moves. He can actually spin his Trident around in the air almost like a super slow boomerang, so it could work as a disjointed hitbox. A good thought is that he could be fairly slow and have poor recovery in return for the power and range. Hmm, is there already a regular Moblin Ganon thread? I could throw my ideas on there.

 

[Curious Villager]

I totally misread the earlier post, my bad. I thought you misread who I was referring to as being very hard to balance(being Ridley, not Ganon).

I never got past the Yuga fight that lets me fully get into the second world. >.< Anyway, that sounds good, I mean, if I knew how it worked.

I could see some Trident usage with slight range too. Palutena's twirling staff attacks come to mind for some ideal moves. He can actually spin his Trident around in the air almost like a super slow boomerang, so it could work as a disjointed hitbox. A good thought is that he could be fairly slow and have poor recovery in return for the power and range. Hmm, is there already a regular Moblin Ganon thread? I could throw my ideas on there.

That sounds good.

He doesn't have a thread yet, at least as far as I'm aware and I can't seem to find him at the support thread directory either. Guess I'll go ahead and make one for him then as I'd like to discuss him a little more in depth too.

Edit: Done!

 

[Wolfie557]

Well, since Smash 3DS / Wii U came out, we've gotten Breath of the Wild, Triforce Heroes, Majora's Mask 3D and Twilight Princess HD. Hyrule Warriors Legends also came out, but that's more Warriors than it is Zelda.

While Breath of the Wild was the most prominent, it's not like it was the only game. Of course, Triforce Heroes has little to nothing to offer character-wise (besides some sweet alternate costumes for Toon Link), and Majora's Mask / Twilight Princess were never going to compete against arguably the biggest and most hyped-up Zelda title in quite some time.

So, yeah, BotW has a decent shot at being THE Zelda game represented by the next Smash. If there was to be a character from that game, I feel like Champion Link would really fit the bill. My only thing is narrowing down all of the Runes, Champion abilities, weapons, game mechanics and everything like that into one single character is kind of insane. Plus, that means half of the Zelda characters would be variations of one idea...

I still will always stand by my opinion that Skull Kid, wielding Majora's Mask, is one of the few Zelda characters outside of the Triforce Trio (Link, Zelda, Ganon) that is iconic enough to appear in Smash as a fighter. I mean, I say the name and instantly, everyone knows what the Final Smash would be.

I don't see how the other zelda ATs (except maybe tingle) are not more iconic than Skull Kid. I wouldn't mind him but I would choose impa ghirahim or midna any day or year.