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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Radical Bones

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They did a similar thing to that for Smash 4 (and I think Brawl too. At least, Sakurai wasn't aware) I think we'd probably most likely get that if we are getting a new game...
Yeah, I remember that Reggie said 'oh, and we have a new Smash Bros. game in development!' at one E3 and then we had to wait an entire year to see anything.

Which is fine - at this stage, all I really want is confirmation of new game vs port so we can concentrate our speculation.
 

SuperSmashStephen

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Yeah, I remember that Reggie said 'oh, and we have a new Smash Bros. game in development!' at one E3 and then we had to wait an entire year to see anything.

Which is fine - at this stage, all I really want is confirmation of new game vs port so we can concentrate our speculation.
Iwata did it for Brawl. He announced the game, and then spoke to Sakurai about making the game after the fact.
 

Wolfie557

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I wouldn't want tingle. Only because i would prefer Midna Ghirahim Impa Vaati ect rct over him.

I see the merits of Ganon but I never dound him appealing as both a smash character and within the Zelda universe. He quickly became generic to me.

Zelda characters in general would have amazing movesets thats i think its sad they dont get much support.
 

Diddy Kong

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Ganon is only a 'good' choice because they aren't gonna give Ganondorf anything else. Sure he's the main villain also, but he might also be too hard to program just like Ridley, 2big.

Impa is easily the best choice for the long run, as she's not a one-off and will continue to make appearances in Zelda. Maybe more often as young if she's finally made playable.
 

Radical Bones

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Ganon is only a 'good' choice because they aren't gonna give Ganondorf anything else. Sure he's the main villain also, but he might also be too hard to program just like Ridley, 2big.

Impa is easily the best choice for the long run, as she's not a one-off and will continue to make appearances in Zelda. Maybe more often as young if she's finally made playable.
I dunno though. As a Smash speculation group Impa is on all of our minds. General population though, they'd be like who? That old chick? Why is she in?

I know she's a mainstay and reoccurring character, but I just don't think there's enough there until they decide on and stick to a design and characteristics.
 

FunAtParties

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I dunno though. As a Smash speculation group Impa is on all of our minds. General population though, they'd be like who? That old chick? Why is she in?

I know she's a mainstay and reoccurring character, but I just don't think there's enough there until they decide on and stick to a design and characteristics.
If they went with Impa, I'd hope they pay attention to what the people who want the character are asking for this time. Adding her as the old lady version would probably bum a lot of people out.
 

Polan

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Is that supposed to be a real leak or is it a joke?
People were fiddling around with the URLs and were able to access that image. You can't view it anymore though. As for it being real it's 50/50. Could be just an employee messing around or Best Buy might have messed up and actually leaked something. We'll know in a couple of days.
 
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WeirdChillFever

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I dunno though. As a Smash speculation group Impa is on all of our minds. General population though, they'd be like who? That old chick? Why is she in?

I know she's a mainstay and reoccurring character, but I just don't think there's enough there until they decide on and stick to a design and characteristics.
To be fair they probably said the same for Palutena, Shulk, Corrin, Little Mac, Roy if they haven't played Melee, possibly Bayo etc as well and with Breath of the Wild being the monster hit it is, I don't think it's fair to suddenly denounce Impa 4thecasuals when Sakurai has added plenty of more "niche" characters.
Especially since other Zelda characters thrown around (Tetra, Tingle, Beast Ganon) are even more so created by the echo chamber effect.
 

Diddy Kong

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I dunno though. As a Smash speculation group Impa is on all of our minds. General population though, they'd be like who? That old chick? Why is she in?

I know she's a mainstay and reoccurring character, but I just don't think there's enough there until they decide on and stick to a design and characteristics.
You are probably right, but it has some chance of happening if Skyward Sword HD ever gets to exist. As for now, I'd say her Hyrule Warriors appearance is most likely.
 

Arcadenik

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Ganon is only a 'good' choice because they aren't gonna give Ganondorf anything else. Sure he's the main villain also, but he might also be too hard to program just like Ridley, 2big.

Impa is easily the best choice for the long run, as she's not a one-off and will continue to make appearances in Zelda. Maybe more often as young if she's finally made playable.
I think the Moblin-like Ganon from the 2D Zelda games could be resized down to at least Bowser's size without issues like Ridley has.
 

Curious Villager

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Wasn't Ridley's issue more due to his wing span than it's size in general? I don't think Moblin Ganon would have any of that kind of issues, him being about as big as Bowser and Donkey Kong (maybe slightly taller) is good enough.
 
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APC99

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My problem with Impa is that she is so inconsistent in design, it's nigh impossible to be a representation of her character without ignoring a lot of her appearances. Sure, there's the young Impa from OoT / Skyward Sword, the Sheikah Sage of Shadows, but she appears more often as an old woman (The NES Zelda titles, BotW, Link Between Worlds, hell, even in Skyward Sword). Then there's also the Oracle games' version of Impa...

The other question is how to make her a fundamentally unique character. Let's say her design is based on the Skyward Sword version. Impa's portrayed as a ninja-type character, so therefore she'd most likely be a light-on-her-feet hit and run type, right? But if she does that, she'd be dangerously close to Sheik and Greninja. So what else is there to build her kit around? Make her a character based around illusions to mirror the Shadow Temple, as she's the Sage of Shadows in OoT? That could work, until you see that Greninja is already an illusion-based ninja, with Shadow Sneak and Substitute meant to fake out opponents. Sheikah magic? She could be a spellcaster, able to fire orbs of light and create barriers as she did in Skyward Sword? But then, she'd be similar to Zelda, Robin, Palutena...

Point is, I think Impa works best in a scenario where Sheik isn't present, and that ship has sailed. No offense to anyone who supports her, that's just my opinion, and I'd love to see an argument for her that shows me she can do more than that.
 

WeirdChillFever

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My problem with Impa is that she is so inconsistent in design, it's nigh impossible to be a representation of her character without ignoring a lot of her appearances. Sure, there's the young Impa from OoT / Skyward Sword, the Sheikah Sage of Shadows, but she appears more often as an old woman (The NES Zelda titles, BotW, Link Between Worlds, hell, even in Skyward Sword). Then there's also the Oracle games' version of Impa...

The other question is how to make her a fundamentally unique character. Let's say her design is based on the Skyward Sword version. Impa's portrayed as a ninja-type character, so therefore she'd most likely be a light-on-her-feet hit and run type, right? But if she does that, she'd be dangerously close to Sheik and Greninja. So what else is there to build her kit around? Make her a character based around illusions to mirror the Shadow Temple, as she's the Sage of Shadows in OoT? That could work, until you see that Greninja is already an illusion-based ninja, with Shadow Sneak and Substitute meant to fake out opponents. Sheikah magic? She could be a spellcaster, able to fire orbs of light and create barriers as she did in Skyward Sword? But then, she'd be similar to Zelda, Robin, Palutena...

Point is, I think Impa works best in a scenario where Sheik isn't present, and that ship has sailed. No offense to anyone who supports her, that's just my opinion, and I'd love to see an argument for her that shows me she can do more than that.
I think a Bowser Jr.-type scenario where the "obvious Up B" (Clown Car/Gate of Time) turns out to be the gimmick of choice could be a good choice for Impa's moveset.

Her Skyward Sword design is far from what Sheik uses though.
Whereas Sheik is focused on offense by swift strikes, Impa would be a defensive force with her barriers, mimicking her role in Skyward Sword and the Zelda series as a whole: A defender, bodyguard.

Besides, there are a lot of "light but quick" characters but they don't seem to get in eachothers way.

The same goes for her role as Sage of Shadows.
Greninja uses his illusionary tactics (aside from in a whopping two moves and his roll) to make himself invisible to opponents, whereas the Shadow Sage would focus on the Shadow Temple traps as illusions, not making herself invisible per se.

I don't think there's much potential for Impa outside of BoTW Impa taking the runes and running with them but that has nothing to do with her suddenly being a second Sheik despite there being a lot of quick and light characters in the game already.
 

FunAtParties

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Wasn't Ridley's issue more due to his wing span than it's size in general? I don't think Moblin Ganon would have any of that kind of issues, him being about as big as Bowser and Donkey Kong (maybe slightly taller) is good enough.
Ridley's only issue is Sakurai doesn't like the idea of making him a workable size for Smash Bros. Everything, from his wings to his tail can be made to fit if someone wants them to.
 

Arcadenik

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I like the idea of Impa being a Yoda-style fighter if she's elderly in Smash.
 
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Wasn't Ridley's issue more due to his wing span than it's size in general? I don't think Moblin Ganon would have any of that kind of issues, him being about as big as Bowser and Donkey Kong (maybe slightly taller) is good enough.
Wing span was only part of the problem. And honestly, that particular issue only truly applies to the Other M design (as in, the design that would have been the main point of reference in his hypothetical Smash 4 debut) not counting any of the cyborg states (notably, Meta Ridley's wingspan, while still huge in Brawl, is only a fraction of what it was in Metroid Prime).


As for Ganon, overall, "Classic"/"Moblin"/"Pig"/"No Label because TP's Beast Ganon means no label is necessary or whatever" Ganon is a completely unrealistic idea in general.
 

Curious Villager

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Ugh, I don't really see any Zelda character making it in at this point other than Sakurai maybe revisiting Toon Zelda again from Brawl, the series is way too inconsistent with one-off characters, those who miss the boat or are just unfeasible (or a mix of all three). Which is probably why he went the extra mile to include a bunch of items, stages, assist trophies etc in Smash 4 instead...
 
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SuperSceptile15

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I can definitely see a Smash 4 port being revealed at E3. I'd love for Decidueye to become playable. Sceptile would have been nice, but his relevancy, along with OR/AS, has faded. So the phantom archer is the next best choice I think.
 
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In terms of likelihood sure, but how so in concept?
Ignoring the fact that making the towering monster that is Ganon only slightly larger than his Ganondorf counterpart is just absurd, the style that is "pig man" Ganon within the Zelda series cannot be replicated in Smash properly.
 

Curious Villager

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In terms of likelihood sure, but how so in concept?
A Link to the Past alone has basically his special moves covered, and you can take some ques from the Yuganon fight in A Link Between Worlds as well. Then there is Calamity Beast Ganon from Breath of the Wild that can work for a Final Smash. Moveset wise, Ganon's fine.

The only thing that might hold him back is his height, but I personally don't see any reason why he can't be made a bit taller than Ganondorf and have him hunched back a little, much like what DK and Bowser already do (Which is basically what he does in his design from A Link Between Worlds anyway.)
 
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Kirbeh

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Ignoring the fact that making the towering monster that is Ganon only slightly larger than his Ganondorf counterpart is just absurd, the style that is "pig man" Ganon within the Zelda series cannot be replicated in Smash properly.
Size I don't really see as an issue given that scaling has already been done for a majority of the cast already in Smash Bros. Even when it comes to Ridley, who's more a case of proportions than sheer size, I believe could be done provided Sakurai finally came up with a portrayal he's satisfied with. In terms of actual attacks, I don't see why he couldn't fight using his trident and various magic attacks.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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Having Ganon be only slightly bigger than Ganondorf would kind of be like having Giga Bowser only be slightly bigger than regular Bowser.
 
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Size I don't really see as an issue given that scaling has already been done for a majority of the cast already in Smash Bros. Even when it comes to Ridley, who's more a case of proportions than sheer size, I believe could be done provided Sakurai finally came up with a portrayal he's satisfied with. In terms of actual attacks, I don't see why he couldn't fight using his trident and various magic attacks.
Never has there been an extreme and jarring case of scaling (within the same series, so no, Olimar isn't a counterexample) such as the idea of the giant monsterous Ganon being scaled down to be closer to the rest of the Zelda cast. The closest case would be in regards to Pokémon, and how the size gap between the likes of Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Lucario and the likes of Mewtwo, Charizard, and Greninja was made smaller (with Pokémon Trainer's presence in Brawl implying that the former three (and Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu, technically) are actually scaled up as opposed to the latter three being scaled down).

And Ganon using "various magic attacks" and using the trident is one thing, fighting like he does in the actual Zelda games is another, however. We can't have a quick, projectile-spamming, constantly teleporting around, large heavyweight with high damage and strength output. He'd have to ironically be like his Gerudo counterpart and be really, really slow, but have power to back up his attacks.
 
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Kirbeh

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Having Ganon be only slightly bigger than Ganondorf would kind of be like having Giga Bowser only be slightly bigger than regular Bowser.
Not really. He's usually quite massive, but like Bowser, Ridley, and K. Rool, his size has fluctuated throughout his appearances. His proportions can be easily scaled, and given that Olimar and all the Pokemon aren't accurate to their sizes either, I think it's a creative liberty that could be done just fine. Granted I don't think he's likely at all, more of a pipe dream want.

Never has there been an extreme and jarring case of scaling (within the same series, so no, Olimar isn't a counterexample) such as the idea of the giant monsterous Ganon being scaled down to be closer to the rest of the Zelda cast. The closest case would be in regards to Pokémon, and how the size gap between the likes of Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Lucario and the likes of Mewtwo, Charizard, and Greninja was made smaller (with Pokémon Trainer's presence in Brawl implying that the former three (and Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu, technically) are actually scaled up as opposed to the latter three being scaled down).

And Ganon using "various magic attacks" and using the trident is one thing, fighting like he does in the actual Zelda games is another, however. We can't have a quick, projectile-spamming, constantly teleporting around, large heavyweight with high damage and strength output. He'd have to ironically be like his Gerudo counterpart and be really, really slow, but have power to back up his attacks.
Again, my point is more so that it can be done. Whether or not Sakurai would think it's a good idea is another issue entirely. As I clarified from the start, I don't think it's likely at all.

And in regards to his play style, once more, I still think it could be done. Plenty of creative liberties are taken across Smash's entire roster, and a lot would need to be created for Smash regardless. Making a one for one exact of any character is unfeasible, but I think key attacks and abilities could be brought in just fine.

I don't think it's likely, but it's still something I'd like to see. I get it if your not fond of idea, but saying it couldn't work because he's too big or too powerful doesn't really make much sense to me when we have multiple instances of this not being an issue. Palutena is a goddess, Mewtwo is a legendary Pokemon, Olimar is tiny, none of the Pokemon are the right size, Duck Hunt, ROB, Villager and Wii Fit Trainer don't fight at all, etc.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I think the biggest problem is that Ganon has no set appearance.

He's a pig man sure, but how much pig and how much man is always up in the air.
 

Curious Villager

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Not really. He's usually quite massive, but like Bowser, Ridley, and K. Rool, his size has fluctuated throughout his appearances. His proportions can be easily scaled, and given that Olimar and all the Pokemon aren't accurate to their sizes either, I think it's a creative liberty that could be done just fine. Granted I don't think he's likely at all, more of a pipe dream want.
True Ganon's size hasn't really been that consistent either.


Keep in mind that Link himself, especially in the earlier Zelda games, was often portrayed as a young boy, a teenager at most which may also add on to the height difference.

I also looked back at the Ganon fight in A Link to the Past and even there, Link is about half his size. I personally think he's more like Bowser than Ridley in terms of size inconsistency, personally and should be doable to work with scaled down, even with Ganondorf. Much like the Pokemon cast, in fact, it should look less odd than Pikachu reaching up to Mewtwo's chest height wise.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I think the biggest problem is that Ganon has no set appearance.

He's a pig man sure, but how much pig and how much man is always up in the air.
Actually, most of the time, outside of Puppet Ganon and Beast Ganon(among the canon games), he's made similar to the Moblins.

He's essentially a pig man in canon, as the bulldog design was more of a quirk of the NES limitations. If anything, what's inconsistent is whether he has tusks or not.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Actually, most of the time, outside of Puppet Ganon and Beast Ganon(among the canon games), he's made similar to the Moblins.

He's essentially a pig man in canon, as the bulldog design was more of a quirk of the NES limitations. If anything, what's inconsistent is whether he has tusks or not.
Except Beast Ganon appears as much as Moblin Ganon. Even then, what design do we use?
 

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Except Beast Ganon appears as much as Moblin Ganon. Even then, what design do we use?
- Plain Ganon, as in the pig/moblin form, has appeared numerous times; The Legend of Zelda, A Link to the Past, Oracle of Ages & Seasons, Four Swords & Adventures, A Link Between Worlds

- Beast Ganon has only appeared in Twilight Princess as a transformed Ganondorf.

- Ganondorf has appeared thrice, being in Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess

- Calamity Ganon is once again a new incarnation.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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- Plain Ganon, as in the pig/moblin form, has appeared numerous times; The Legend of Zelda, A Link to the Past, Oracle of Ages & Seasons, Four Swords & Adventures, A Link Between Worlds

- Beast Ganon has only appeared in Twilight Princess as a transformed Ganondorf.

- Ganondorf has only appeared thrice being in Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker and TP

- Calamity Ganon is once again a new incarnation.
Doesn't Ganondorf appear in FSA?

And doesn't Beast Ganon appear in OoT, Hyrule Warriors and a cameo in Wind Waker?
 

Curious Villager

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Doesn't Ganondorf appear in FSA?

And doesn't Beast Ganon appear in OoT, Hyrule Warriors and a cameo in Wind Waker?
As far as I'm aware, no (his laughter did though...)

Beast Ganon also didn't appear in OoT. At least, not the lion boar thing from TP, the one in OoT was more like the one in ALttP but with two swords instead, likewise with Wind Waker, but just as a stain glass cameo.

That form was used in Hyrule Warriors though.
 
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Kirbeh

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Doesn't Ganondorf appear in FSA?

And doesn't Beast Ganon appear in OoT, Hyrule Warriors and a cameo in Wind Waker?
Adventures is listed. I just put it as "& Adventures" right after Four Swords.

Ocarina of Time Ganon is a bit of an outlier. Beast Ganon was not used until Twilight Princess. OOT's Ganon is still referred to simply as Ganon.

It is the one inconsistency in Ganon's design though, not counting the other incarnations like Beast and Calamity of course.

And you're correct, Beast Ganon does appear in Hyrule Warriors, but I was sticking to canon titles. As for Wind Waker, you're thinking of Puppet Ganon, which is exactly that, just a puppet being controlled by Ganondorf. It's appearance however is meant to be a call back to Ganon.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Except Beast Ganon appears as much as Moblin Ganon. Even then, what design do we use?
As noted, Beast Ganon has one total canon appearance. TP. They combined the 3 major designs(Moblin, Beast, classic NES blue) to create his form in Hyrule Warriors. OOT is pretty much Moblin Ganon from ALttP with Swords.

Moblin Ganon is his most consistent appearance right now. The most consistent point is he's always pig-like. He's anthro the most, so that's the most logical design to go with. Beast Ganon is already a Final Smash anyway.

I'd say a collaboration of his Moblin appearances combined with the various weapons and magic he uses(including in his Agnahim form). This makes it easy to add Dead Man's Volley since forms of Ganon(including Phantom Ganon, a unique entity) have used it more than Ganondorf(I do want Ganondorf to have it myself, but I'm okay with Ganon getting it as is if they want to really make him far more different). His main weapons are the swords and trident, so that gives quite a few moveset options. Combined with lightning magic, potential for using weapons/attacks of the minions he commands, or even summoning some here and there(like King Dedede could in Brawl) as a move or Final Smash. Just saying there's a lot of unique potential due to his vast appearances.

Fun fact, though; Moblin Ganon(when he was bulldog-like) was the only one that was incorrectly referred to as Gannon in the US versions.
 

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And you're correct, Beast Ganon does appear in Hyrule Warriors, but I was sticking to canon titles. As for Wind Waker, you're thinking of Puppet Ganon, which is exactly that, just a puppet being controlled by Ganondorf. It's appearance however is meant to be a call back to Ganon.
I meant at the beginning of the game with the tapestry.
 
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