Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Zinith]

I'm almost scared of Smash's E3 reveal.

Also, I'll be disappointed with the invitational because none of the players will pick Yoshi. I guarantee it

 

[Smartz]

I'm almost scared of Smash's E3 reveal.

Also, I'll be disappointed with the invitational because none of the players will pick Yoshi. I guarantee it

And my quesition is will any of them “Expand Dong”

I’m so sorry for the old meme...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm almost scared of Smash's E3 reveal.

Also, I'll be disappointed with the invitational because none of the players will pick Yoshi. I guarantee it

And my quesition is will any of them “Expand Dong”

I’m so sorry for the old meme...

The real question is will there be anyone doing the BIG GAY DANCE

 

[Nielicus]

I can't wait to see the visual direction they go in this game. I hope a lot of the veterans are changed in some way too.

 

[Kamikazek]

While I do understand what you're saying, I absolutely do consider those characters to have archetypes that were specifically tailored to their personalities.

As a Pac-Man main, I can tell you with certainty that he was designed to be a character that plays exactly like his games. It's not a stretch.

He uses the layout of the arena to manipulate his opponents while simultaneously staying as far away from them as possible. That's his gameplan in Smash, and it's also his gameplan in his arcade game. He uses the layout of the maze to manipulate the AI of the ghosts so he can stay safe while eating the pellets.

Even his fruit charge reflects this, as you have to have enough time to go for the charge to get any given fruit, which becomes harder the higher you charge. This is exactly like how you need to carefully plan your way into a situation where you can grab the fruit for extra points without dying in Pac-Man, which is also harder for higher leveled fruit.

A character can have a bunch of weird abilities thrown together, but that doesn't mean it's not all carefully crafted together around a certral idea by Sakurai. Like - take Game and Watch - all of his moves are references, but he represents the Game and Watch games perfectly by also being a character who has to play really, really well, or he loses. If you make a mistake in a Game and Watch game, you just lose. The same thing applies to Game and Watch in Smash, because he's a paper cannon.

Corrin is very, very clearly designed to be a spacer. Everything from his lance arms to his projectile and his pin. It's all about keeping opponents away so he doesn't die, because if the Lord dies in Fire Emblen, you're through.

I agree that the characters you mention aren't weakly designed, but I argue that that's because the core of their gameplay was still at the focus when Sakurai designed their movesets.

With Pacman you're right that he's designed to emulate Pacman games, and that every character is designed with that sort of thought process to some extent or another. I cut the part of your post where you say every character needs to carry the character's essence when I quoted you because I have no disagreement there. I also mentioned that things ultimately have to work together as a cohesive playstyle. But what I was more getting at was you saying that characters are based on simple concepts like stat changer, puppeteer, ect.. The only concise way I could describe Pacman is that he is Pacman, which is neither an archetype nor is it simple, as there are multifaceted aspects to what makes Pacman Pacman, and in order to make that happen the devs had to get really creative with abstracting things from his games and then unabstracting them to fit the context. Archetype means an overarching type that a lot of examples fit into. Pacman isn't tailored to fit an archetype, he's tailored specifically to be Packman so hard that he doesn't fit into an archetype.


Furthermore, and towards my other point, that point can be reached not only by starting with a character concept and creating a moveset to fit that, but also by selecting moves peacemeal that represent different aspects of the character and then skillfully assembling them together into something that works. Example off the top of my head - Marth. All his moves have sweet spots to emulate crits in Fire Emblem. Dancing blade is a multi-step attack because FE has multi-attacks if you're fast enough. Counter is there because FE has counterattacks. Sheildbreaker is based off of Marth's signature weapon the rapier piercing armor. He's big on spacing because positioning is important in FE. Ect.. Sakurai took a bunch of unrelated concepts that happen to be important to Marth or Fire Emblem, converted those to even less obviously related individual character traits and moves for Smash, and then found a way to make it all work as one character. From a design perspective that's wildly different from something like taking Rosalina, saying "she'd make sense as a puppet character, let's try to make her moveset a puppeteer toolkit" and working from there. When fans make "a bunch of unrelated references" type movesets the Marth thing is what they're going for, it's just really hard to do well. In essence I'm objecting to the idea that you need to start with an overarching theme for the character and build things from there, when you can also represent different aspects with different moves or traits and then put them together in a way that works.

Corrin has several spacing tools and I even said if I had to I'd call them a zoning character, but they plays loose with the concept. I'll more or less cede the point there though.

With G&W the fact that his moveset is a bunch of random incongruous stuff is itself conceptually representative of the character. The G&W games are just a bunch of handheld games unrelated beyond hardware and publisher. Unlike everyone else in Smash G&W's games have no overarching gameplay concept, no consistent or even primary setting, characters, tone, style, nothing. And that's why none of G&W's moves have anything to do with each other either. But they are still put together in a way that the complete character works as a fighting game character. I'm not sure I'd say being fragile or high risk high reward is a "central idea" of G&W. It's certainly part of his character concept, but there's large chunks of who he is as a character that are unrelated to that. It's less central and more one of many pieces of the pie.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I can't wait to see the visual direction they go in this game. I hope a lot of the veterans are changed in some way too.

The teaser indicates that the artstyle will be a cross between Brawl and Smash 4, which is ideal I feel.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

The teaser indicates that the artstyle will be a cross between Brawl and Smash 4, which is ideal I feel.

Edgy yet cartoony?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I can't wait to see the visual direction they go in this game. I hope a lot of the veterans are changed in some way too.

I'm just curious where they'll go from smash 4, that game's art style looks great and manages to suit all of the different characters as well, unlike Brawl no one feels out of place. Will it even change?

 

[Luminario]

Alright, I'm going to share few information about Sakurai's cat. Are you saying that you already saw his cat as he's on thee poster in the cabin at Pokemon Stadium 2.




Sorry to say that Sakurai confirmed that it's not his cat so it's not his cat at all. Here is a picture of his cat.

Her name is Fukura. When Sakurai was asked about what Fukura meant, and Sakurai said, "It's a secret." So Only him and probably his wife know what her name meant and where it came from. Also she's 9 years old, and she born during April 2009. The breed of Fukura is Scottish Fold.

Sakurai mentioned that it was incredibly hard to able to have a cat in Tokyo Building Apartment, so he was glad that he finally able to have his own cat in the house. It's not secret that he's a cat lover!

Source: Fukura Article (Also there are more pictures in there, and more details as well)

If we ever get a cat character, we need a Fukura palette swap.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Edgy yet cartoony?

So does that mean Shadow The Hedgehog will join?

 

[Icedragonadam]

I'm just curious where they'll go from smash 4, that game's art style looks great and manages to suit all of the different characters as well, unlike Brawl no one feels out of place. Will it even change?

Disagree with all of the characters fitting in with the artstyle, Ganondorf looked awful in Smash 4. I'm hoping he has a new look like Link for this game. Especially if they decide to go with HW instead of a BOTW inspired style.

 

[PSIguy89]

So by show of hands....who here would feel legit bad every time they have to KO Isabelle

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Disagree with all of the characters fitting in with the artstyle, Ganondorf looked awful in Smash 4. I'm hoping he has a new look like Link for this game. Especially if they decide to go with HW instead of a BOTW inspired style.

Ganondorf's issue for me was his stupid derpy face, I think the model itself looks fine personally

 

[Deleted member]

So does that mean Shadow The Hedgehog will join?

-OW THE EDGE INTENSIFIES-

....I would be hyped.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

-OW THE EDGE INTENSIFIES-

....I would be hyped.

"Death to all who oppose me... Chaos! Blast!"

Honestly one of my top favorite Sonic series characters. Rouge and Metal Sonic are the others. His game honestly made him so much more endearing characterization-wise to me. Felt way more fleshed out than simply a dark backstory. In Adventure 2, he was pretty much edgy too. Heroes was just... overly dramatic due to the game's own tone of severely high amounts of cheese. Shadow still has cheese too, but it did more for his character, including giving him tons of unique stuff to really separate him from Sonic. 06 kept it going further. It's just too bad that 06 was the last game for his playable appearances where he wasn't a clone.

Regardless, I wish we had some Shadow music in Smash. He has lots of great ones.

 

[BluePikmin11]

With Pacman you're right that he's designed to emulate Pacman games, and that every character is designed with that sort of thought process to some extent or another. I cut the part of your post where you say every character needs to carry the character's essence when I quoted you because I have no disagreement there. I also mentioned that things ultimately have to work together as a cohesive playstyle. But what I was more getting at was you saying that characters are based on simple concepts like stat changer, puppeteer, ect.. The only concise way I could describe Pacman is that he is Pacman, which is neither an archetype nor is it simple, as there are multifaceted aspects to what makes Pacman Pacman, and in order to make that happen the devs had to get really creative with abstracting things from his games and then unabstracting them to fit the context. Archetype means an overarching type that a lot of examples fit into. Pacman isn't tailored to fit an archetype, he's tailored specifically to be Packman so hard that he doesn't fit into an archetype.

Furthermore, and towards my other point, that point can be reached not only by starting with a character concept and creating a moveset to fit that, but also by selecting moves peacemeal that represent different aspects of the character and then skillfully assembling them together into something that works. Example off the top of my head - Marth. All his moves have sweet spots to emulate crits in Fire Emblem. Dancing blade is a multi-step attack because FE has multi-attacks if you're fast enough. Counter is there because FE has counterattacks. Sheildbreaker is based off of Marth's signature weapon the rapier piercing armor. He's big on spacing because positioning is important in FE. Ect.. Sakurai took a bunch of unrelated concepts that happen to be important to Marth or Fire Emblem, converted those to even less obviously related individual character traits and moves for Smash, and then found a way to make it all work as one character. From a design perspective that's wildly different from something like taking Rosalina, saying "she'd make sense as a puppet character, let's try to make her moveset a puppeteer toolkit" and working from there. When fans make "a bunch of unrelated references" type movesets the Marth thing is what they're going for, it's just really hard to do well. In essence I'm objecting to the idea that you need to start with an overarching theme for the character and build things from there, when you can also represent different aspects with different moves or traits and then put them together in a way that works.

Corrin has several spacing tools and I even said if I had to I'd call them a zoning character, but they plays loose with the concept. I'll more or less cede the point there though.

With G&W the fact that his moveset is a bunch of random incongruous stuff is itself conceptually representative of the character. The G&W games are just a bunch of handheld games unrelated beyond hardware and publisher. Unlike everyone else in Smash G&W's games have no overarching gameplay concept, no consistent or even primary setting, characters, tone, style, nothing. And that's why none of G&W's moves have anything to do with each other either. But they are still put together in a way that the complete character works as a fighting game character. I'm not sure I'd say being fragile or high risk high reward is a "central idea" of G&W. It's certainly part of his character concept, but there's large chunks of who he is as a character that are unrelated to that. It's less central and more one of many pieces of the pie.

This is one of the greatest Smashboards posts I have read in my time of participating in Smash Switch speculation. Bravo to you.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

So by show of hands....who here would feel legit bad every time they have to KO Isabelle

I feel like I'd pause the game right before the attack landed and just whisper an apology.

 

[Nielicus]

The teaser indicates that the artstyle will be a cross between Brawl and Smash 4, which is ideal I feel.

I'm just curious where they'll go from smash 4, that game's art style looks great and manages to suit all of the different characters as well, unlike Brawl no one feels out of place. Will it even change?

I was getting Brawl meets Smash 4 vibes at first but now Idk, I'm feeling Melee vibes as well from this game in terms of style but we've seen so little this is just me guessing lol. My overall guess is that it will be a celebration of the series in general.

Also this is minor but something I want to point out, there's a point in the trailer where the Inkling is facing away from the camera and there is a dotted neon glo effect on the back of her Hair/Tentacles that I don't think we've seen on the character before, similar touch to the stars they added to Rosalina's dress. I love the detail the developers put into the design of the characters.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I was getting Brawl meets Smash 4 vibes at first but now Idk, I'm feeling Melee vibes as well from this game in terms of style but we've seen so little this is just me guessing lol. My overall guess is that it will be a celebration of the series in general.

Also this is minor but something I want to point out, there's a point in the trailer where the Inkling is facing away from the camera and there is a dotted neon glo effect on the back of her Hair/Tentacles that I don't think we've seen on the character before, similar touch to the stars they added to Rosalina's dress. I love the detail the developers put into the design of the characters.

please not melee, that art style is so ugly fr

 

[Deleted member]

So by show of hands....who here would feel legit bad every time they have to KO Isabelle

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

She's just practicing her side step so she doesn't get hit.

 

[Nielicus]

please not melee, that art style is so ugly fr

lmfaoo true but some influences could be dope

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

I feel like Luigi is no different from this

 

[KingBroly]

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

That's a cool detail. I didn't realize AT's moved in a 3D plane

 

[Deleted member]

She's just practicing her side step so she doesn't get hit.

Cowering away as compared to fellow Animal Crossing AT, Mr. Resetti who just takes hits like a boss and itches to join the action himself.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

Didn't Villager do something similar in Brawl, on Smashville?

 

[Pacack]

With Pacman you're right that he's designed to emulate Pacman games, and that every character is designed with that sort of thought process to some extent or another. I cut the part of your post where you say every character needs to carry the character's essence when I quoted you because I have no disagreement there. I also mentioned that things ultimately have to work together as a cohesive playstyle. But what I was more getting at was you saying that characters are based on simple concepts like stat changer, puppeteer, ect.. The only concise way I could describe Pacman is that he is Pacman, which is neither an archetype nor is it simple, as there are multifaceted aspects to what makes Pacman Pacman, and in order to make that happen the devs had to get really creative with abstracting things from his games and then unabstracting them to fit the context. Archetype means an overarching type that a lot of examples fit into. Pacman isn't tailored to fit an archetype, he's tailored specifically to be Packman so hard that he doesn't fit into an archetype.


Furthermore, and towards my other point, that point can be reached not only by starting with a character concept and creating a moveset to fit that, but also by selecting moves peacemeal that represent different aspects of the character and then skillfully assembling them together into something that works. Example off the top of my head - Marth. All his moves have sweet spots to emulate crits in Fire Emblem. Dancing blade is a multi-step attack because FE has multi-attacks if you're fast enough. Counter is there because FE has counterattacks. Sheildbreaker is based off of Marth's signature weapon the rapier piercing armor. He's big on spacing because positioning is important in FE. Ect.. Sakurai took a bunch of unrelated concepts that happen to be important to Marth or Fire Emblem, converted those to even less obviously related individual character traits and moves for Smash, and then found a way to make it all work as one character. From a design perspective that's wildly different from something like taking Rosalina, saying "she'd make sense as a puppet character, let's try to make her moveset a puppeteer toolkit" and working from there. When fans make "a bunch of unrelated references" type movesets the Marth thing is what they're going for, it's just really hard to do well. In essence I'm objecting to the idea that you need to start with an overarching theme for the character and build things from there, when you can also represent different aspects with different moves or traits and then put them together in a way that works.

Corrin has several spacing tools and I even said if I had to I'd call them a zoning character, but they plays loose with the concept. I'll more or less cede the point there though.

With G&W the fact that his moveset is a bunch of random incongruous stuff is itself conceptually representative of the character. The G&W games are just a bunch of handheld games unrelated beyond hardware and publisher. Unlike everyone else in Smash G&W's games have no overarching gameplay concept, no consistent or even primary setting, characters, tone, style, nothing. And that's why none of G&W's moves have anything to do with each other either. But they are still put together in a way that the complete character works as a fighting game character. I'm not sure I'd say being fragile or high risk high reward is a "central idea" of G&W. It's certainly part of his character concept, but there's large chunks of who he is as a character that are unrelated to that. It's less central and more one of many pieces of the pie.

I see what you're saying. I honestly think we're essentially in agreement.

While I definitely failed to properly articulate what I was thinking, I do agree with you on what you're saying. You don't need to start with an archetype so much as you need to have a glue that keeps the character true to themselves, which is what I was meaning to say.

The big takeaway from me is that a character's moves need to be pieces to a puzzle instead of being just randomly tacked on for the sake of references.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I think people are really over exaggerating the Isabelle thing

1) It’s a cartoon-y party fighter, not Mortal Kombat. It’s really not a particularly violent game.
2) We can already punch women, children, adorable little creatures and a dog. Isabelle isn’t a stretch at all.

You want something in Smash that makes you feel bad? Kill some of Olimar’s Pikmin. Now THAT’S a heartbreaking experience

 

[Hinata]

Cowering away as compared to fellow Animal Crossing AT, Mr. Resetti who just takes hits like a boss and itches to join the action himself.

If you hit Resetti, he explodes. Sounds like prime fighter material to me.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Cowering away as compared to fellow Animal Crossing AT, Mr. Resetti who just takes hits like a boss and itches to join the action himself.

What's he going to do? Nag me to death? I'll call the wife instead! Right fellas? Hahaha, no, I'm totally gay.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

please not melee, that art style is so ugly fr

To be fair, I'm not sure Melee had a proper unifying style so much as
"TEXTURES! FLIP YEAH!"

The step forward of the 6th Generation is often understated.

 

[Cosmic77]

Since we're on the topic, how would Resetti fight? Attacking with his pickaxe seems obvious, but I'd love it if his moveset somehow involved him fighting with his massive speech bubbles. Just imagine him yanking one down from midair and whacking someone with it.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Luigi is no different from this

Not even close.

Luigi is a scardey-cat, but he will jump into the fray when necessary.

Isabelle notably keeps to the side of the battlegrounds as a support instead of getting in the line of fire herself. And even then, she jumps back even further and flinches as if afraid to be hit at all whenever the fight is close to her.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

To be fair, I'm not sure Melee had a proper unifying style so much as
"TEXTURES! FLIP YEAH!"

The step forward of the 6th Generation is often understated.

true but all the characters have this weirdly dark yet bright and saturated look. the lighter, slightly washed out smash 4 has is just so much nicer to look at imo. Characters like mario and bowser in melee make me wanna throw up lmao.

A reminder that Isabelle is shown to cower when the action gets too close for comfort.

And this is someone people seriously think should be a playable fighter.

It's a party fighter with cartoon violence tho...no one's ripping out anyone's spine or getting their face smashed in or anything I really don't think it's a big deal. Just give her some cute cartoony facial expressions for when she gets hit it'll be fine lol.

 

[Deleted member]

Didn't Villager do something similar in Brawl, on Smashville?

Nope. None of the onlookers react to the fight being right in front of them. Only what happens in regards to the player they happen to be supporting.

 

[Pacack]

What's he going to do? Nag me to death? I'll call the wife instead! Right fellas? Hahaha, no, I'm totally gay.

I've never resonated with a post so strongly before.

 

[Chandeelure]

Not going to lie, I would use Isabelle as a punching bag if she is added.

 

[Zinith]

Not going to lie, I would use Isabelle as a punching bag if she is added.

Ah, I see you're a man of culture...

 

[MopedOfJustice]

true but all the characters have this weirdly dark yet bright and saturated look. the lighter, slightly washed out smash 4 has is just so much nicer to look at imo. Characters like mario and bowser in melee make me wanna throw up lmao.

I'm really not sure what you expected of the shading engine for an early Gamecube game.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

So by show of hands....who here would feel legit bad every time they have to KO Isabelle

not at all

 

[Nielicus]

Not even close.

Luigi is a scardey-cat, but he will jump into the fray when necessary.

Isabelle notably keeps to the side of the battlegrounds as a support instead of getting in the line of fire herself. And even then, she jumps back even further and flinches as if afraid to be hit at all whenever the fight is close to her.

I mean that's the first time she's really been in danger, she's was probably trying to figure out wtf was going on lol! Cut the pupper some slack.