Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MasterOfKnees]

They could change Sheik's design to match the outfit they made as a homage to her in Breath of the Wild, not too far-fetched when you consider that scrapped concept art ended up being her design in Brawl, and it looks great.

Not sure what they'll do with Ganondorf, I wouldn't complain if they use his TP design again, it's still his best design imo.

 

[Pacack]

As I said in my previous quote, there was absolutely nothing Rosalina had ever done in the games that would've caused Sakurai to automatically think she'd be a puppet character with Luma. The concept is so unique that there's no way he could've come up with something like that on the spot; her moveset was something he had to sit down and really think about, meaning he didn't write her off just for being too new. Yeah, her game of origin was popular and it had been out for a while, but just like the Champions, she was still pale in comparison to other more iconic options. Daisy, Waluigi, Toad, and Bowser Jr. had been making dozens of appearances in Mario spin-offs for over a decade. Rosalina had only appeared in four games (SMG, SMG2, MKWii, and MK7). For a Mario character, that ain't much.

It doesn't line up perfectly, but I think the comparison works. You have two (technically five) characters from a major Nintendo franchise who a lot of people wrote off because there was no way in heck they'd get in before the "more obvious" choices. The biggest difference between the two is that Galaxy had been out for a few years, while BotW was unreleased. You're right about Sakurai not knowing if BotW would be successful, but based off the timing and the reception to the game at E3 2016, something tells me he'd at least want to be aware of any potential newcomers from this game.

Ah, I see where we differ on this one. I intepreted Sakurai's statements in his project plan to mean that he chose Rosalina specifically because he thought the puppet character idea could be applied with her when it wouldn't for anyone else. As far as I can tell, her recent appearances were not the primary reason she made it in according to what Sakurai has said.

If that's true, then it's best to compare the Champions only if their moveset would be interesting enough to catch Sakurai's eye.

And aside from Link and Zelda, who else from BotW got that much screen time? Even if they weren't center spotlight, they're still a major part of the story in BotW. Honestly, it's no different than someone trying to make a case for Impa by using her appearances in OoT and SS.

We actually agree on this. If people were rooting for Impa based on a one-off appearance in OoT or SS alone, then she wouldn't be a good choice.

However, she appears in small roles frequently throughout the Zelda series since its inception. Any of her roles alone amount to nothing of particular note, but together they make up a legacy that most characters in Zelda don't have. That's the reason why she stands a chance - not because of any single appearance.

Just relevancy? Relevance don't mean squat if your game wasn't notable (Just ask Henry Fleming and Tethu). Characters also have to have moveset potential for Sakurai to consider them, and that's something the Champions certainly have.

How? I'm not intending to sound sarcastic when I ask that. What moveset potential do they have that would attract Sakurai's attention like Rosalina did?

Mipha has a spear (which is interesting but not exclusive to her, especially when one considers that Impa uses a naginata in Hyrule Warriors) and a healing power that doesn't really make much sense to focus a character's moveset on in a fighting game.

Daruk has a club that's functionally similar to Ike's broadsword, and he's a heavyweight. Sounds basically like Dedede? I don't see what's interesting about that.

Revali is an archer and a bird, which is new...but also a quality shared by Decidueye, who ultimately makes more sense to include if we assume Sakurai found the idea interesting.

Urbosa uses a sword amd shield similarly to Link, but with lightning.

What on earth am I missing? You seem to think these characters have something which speaks to their uniqueness as a fighter in Smash, but I'm not sure what you're seeing.

However, even if we focus on the Champions' relevancy by itself, that's still one of the most important factors for Sakurai in choosing newcomers. Almost the entire list of Smash 4 newcomers were relevant around the time they were chosen, many of which actually debuted in the time between Brawl and Smash 4. Even if relevancy really was all the Champions had, that's still a pretty big advantage, especially since a majority of their competition is relying entirely on a spin-off game.

Relevency is a necessary but not sufficient reason to include a character.

Yes, a character needs to be in the public's eye when they're chosen. We've been told as much. That said, no, that's enough for a character to make it in.

And if you fail to see that Impa has more in her resume than just Hyrule Warriors, then I don't know what to tell you. She's in TLoZ, Zelda 2, OoT, the Oracle games, SS, ALBW, and BotW, and is depicted in WW. She also was a central character in HW and has appeared in numerous spinoffs and noncanonical materials.

Point blank, more people know her.

Champions? Promotion for fairly new and popular Zelda game on the Switch.

BotW is about a year old at this point. Anyone who has a Switch already has BotW, and those people are already likely to buy Smash, given that Nintendo markets it well.

The point of promotion is to sell a product, but you're not going to attract new people to BotW by including a Champion in Smash.

You're more likely to get the attention of new customers by including a character they're already familiar with who they want to play as. Impa fits that criteria, and rhe Champions don't.

Seriously, you can make a case for practically any character with this method. It's just randomly picking a reason why a character would make sense in Smash.

Yeah, you can point out the positives of any character. That doesnt mean that all the positives are equally valid reasons to include the each character. That's false equivalence.

Skull Kid? One of the most iconic Zelda villains of all time.
Tingle? Only other Zelda character to get his own game.
Impa? One of the only recurring Zelda characters not on the roster.

Explaining why a character is on the roster is one thing, but making a case for that character long before they even get revealed is completely different.

This is an appeal to ignorance.

While it is true that we cannot definitively say what is or is not going to happen in the future, it it not true that we cannot discuss the probabilities of these events.

Yes, it is fallacious to state that the Champions cannot happen, because I can't prove that.

However, it is not fallacious to use evidence to try to determine which character is more likely to happen.

I can guarantee you plenty of people would make a counter argument for Corrin if you stated that back in mid 2015.

You're correct. At the time, we did not recognize evidence that a character could be included primarily for promotional purposes.

That said, there are notably few instances of this happening. In fact, no character has been on the project plan primarily for that reason - Roy happened as a last-minute clone, and Corrin was chosen during the DLC period.

I'm not trying to claim that it is impossible for a Champion to make it in, but I am trying to claim that there is not precedence leading me to expect it.

Likewise, any of these Zelda characters could get in Smash, and everyone would act like it was the most predictable and understandable decision Sakurai ever made.

I personally would not, just as I do not consider Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, or Corrin to have been easy to predict.

What is it about Impa that's so interesting that it dwarfs the likes of Skull Kid or Midna?

This is all about perspective. More specifically, Sakurai's perspective. I couldn't tell you whether or not Sakurai would think the Champions are more unique than Impa, but I can tell you that this would be Impa's fourth attempt at getting on the roster.

I have already explained that Impa is one of the few recognizable characters left for Nintendo to choose from and that Smash 4 had higher priority characters to include. That is why I expect Impa now when I did not in Smash 4.

If Sakurai couldn't add Impa back in Smash 4 when she was actually at a peak in her relevancy, why add her now? She ain't getting any younger, and with all the newer competition she's picked up along the way, getting in Smash is only gonna get harder and harder.

Again, you're not considering that Impa had more prioritized characters competing with her in Smash 4 than are competing with her now.

I'm not even saying that she has an extremely good shot - all I'm saying is that, if there is a LoZ character, she will be it. Whether there will be or not is a separate matter entirely, and it depends on how many characters Sakurai ends up adding.

I've supported Impa and just about every other Zelda character at least once, but so far, it's been to no avail. That tells me that Sakurai doesn't see what we see in these characters, because if he did, they would've gotten on the roster a long time ago. Instead of banking on the same characters, I'm taking a step back and looking at things through a different perspective, and that perspective tells me to start looking at the atypical choices.

You are free to look at other choices. I'm not stopping you. But I can tell you from experience that expecting a character because they're an atypical choice isn't wise either.

Likewise, I'm having a hard time taking Impa and the others seriously when they're relying on a spin-off game, one where virtually every notable Zelda character has to share the spotlight with others, to be enough to trump BotW, a highly anticipated game that was on everyone's minds when Sakurai started development.

That's fair if you're looking at it from that perspective, but it's not the same way I interpret the possibility of the Zelda newcomers.

Impa being in Hyrule Warriors is, as you mention, not enough on its own. But the fact that she appears in that game gives her the recent game release she needs to be considered as a candidate given that she also has a number of notable roles throughout the Zelda franchise.


Again, I apologize for being testy last night. (I was in need of food and was dealing with the grief of losing some family friends in a car accident. I was unreasonable harsh because of thay, and it wasn't fair to you.)

I do enjoy having this debate, and I hope there are no hard feelings between us.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I honestly have no strong opinions for what they're gonna do with the Zelda cast for this game, since I never liked playing as any of them.
Just as long as none of them are cut, which I doubt will happen, I'll be fine with whatever happens.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

They could change Sheik's design to match the outfit they made as a homage to her in Breath of the Wild, not too far-fetched when you consider that scrapped concept art ended up being her design in Brawl, and it looks great.

Not sure what they'll do with Ganondorf, I wouldn't complain if they use his TP design again, it's still his best design imo.

That’s smart...you’re smart (as for Ganondorf, either TP or HW works out)

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I honestly have no strong opinions for what they're gonna do with the Zelda cast for this game, since I never liked playing as any of them.
Just as long as none of them are cut, which I doubt will happen, I'll be fine with whatever happens.

I want Impa but I would be just as happy to see Zelda fixed and reworked and Ganondorf decloned tbh

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Finally a Smasher of culture. I want to throw deadly pizzas and team up with hot androids too.



This is also acceptable.

The Saiyans really do have the most boring techniques in the series, not that it matters; they're never getting in.

After all we don't like transformation characters.

That and Yamcha has an op moveset while Krillin is a pimp

 

[Pazzo.]

>First Black character in Smash

>

Oof

 

[Pacack]

There are a lot of options for designing the Zelda characters, honestly.

BotW Link has to be paired with BotW Zelda, imo.

Sheik could remain the same, could revert to OoT, could have a design based on the BotW Sheikah stuff, or could have her BotW design.

Ganondorf could remain the same, revert to his OoT design, could use Phantom Ganon from BotW as a base, or could use his Hyrule Warriors design.

Toon Link will stay Toon Link.

If Impa's in, she could use her OoT, SS, or Hyrule Warriors design, or they could give her a design based on BotW also.


Personally, I'd do BotW Link and Zelda, WW Toon Link, OoT Sheik, TP Ganondorf, and SS Impa to represent every home console game in the series. Alternatively, Impa's HW design is a great one, and I wouldn't be upset to see it.

Or we could do costumes for Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, and Impa. That way all of them could be in. It would be a lot of work, but it would be worth it.

 

[osby]

Personally, I'd do BotW Link and Zelda, WW Toon Link, OoT Sheik, TP Ganondorf, and SS Impa to represent every home console game in the series.

I don't want to like this idea, but it's really cool.

 

[Pacack]

I don't want to like this idea, but it's really cool.

Thank you, I try.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There are a lot of options for designing the Zelda characters, honestly.

BotW Link has to be paired with BotW Zelda, imo.

Sheik could remain the same, could revert to OoT, could have a design based on the BotW Sheikah stuff, or could have her BotW design.

Ganondorf could remain the same, revert to his OoT design, could use Phantom Ganon from BotW aas a base, or could use his Hyrule Warriors design.

Toon Link will stay Toon Link.

If Impa's in, she could use her OoT, SS, or Hyrule Warriors design, or they could give her a design based on BotW also.


Personally, I'd do BotW Link and Zelda, WW Toon Link, OoT Sheik, TP Ganondorf, and SS Impa to represent every home console game in the series.

You forgot Oracles!Impa as an option(which is more likely than HW, to be honest). But yeah, I don't think they need to bother trying to make the designs consistent anymore.

That said, they still don't have a viable Ganondorf design specifically from BOTW anyway. Seems kind of silly to reuse his OOT design, and the only thing we have is a different character that is just a rehash of the OOT design.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

There are a lot of options for designing the Zelda characters, honestly.

BotW Link has to be paired with BotW Zelda, imo.

Sheik could remain the same, could revert to OoT, could have a design based on the BotW Sheikah stuff, or could have her BotW design.

Ganondorf could remain the same, revert to his OoT design, could use Phantom Ganon from BotW aas a base, or could use his Hyrule Warriors design.

Toon Link will stay Toon Link.

If Impa's in, she could use her OoT, SS, or Hyrule Warriors design, or they could give her a design based on BotW also.


Personally, I'd do BotW Link and Zelda, WW Toon Link, OoT Sheik, TP Ganondorf, and SS Impa to represent every home console game in the series. Alternatively, Impa's HW design is a great one, and I wouldn't be upset to see it.

Or we could do costumes for Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, and Impa. That way all of them could be in. It would be a lot of work, but it would be worth it.

I’d like this idea a lot more if Ganondorf actually had a moveset that represented Twilight Princess tbh

That said I’m a big fan of giving sheik her OoT look and seperating her and Zelda completely

 

[IntelliHeath1]

Let hope that Sakurai would give us the similar introduction but with more franchises being added to it, like Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Pikmin, Mother, etc.

 

[Pacack]

That said I’m a big fan of giving sheik her OoT look and seperating her and Zelda completely

Agreed. I prefer to think of them as two separate incarnations of Zelda rather than the same individual in different clothes.

Plus, I like to imagine Sheik traveling to the future and watching over future Zeldas. It's great fanfiction material.

 

[osby]

Let hope that Sakurai would give us the similar introduction but with more franchises being added to it, like Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Pikmin, Mother, etc.

Wait, trailers made by Sakurai? I thought they were done by Nintendo.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Wait, trailers made by Sakurai? I thought they were done by Nintendo.

Yeah, he's responsible for setting up the openings in terms of determining content and timing. At least, that's how it went with Melee, but I don't think there's any reason to suppose that it changed.

 

[Pacack]

In completely unrelated news, I really want Sheik to have a taunt where she plays the Goddess Harp.

Imagine if you could press down taunt to bring it out, then could use different buttons to play music. Then, you would cancel out of it by pressing down taunt again.

It would be especially great if it played OoT jingles when you did the right inputs.

 

[Bowserlick]

In completely unrelated news, I really want Sheik to have a taunt where she plays the Goddess Harp.

Imagine if you could press down taunt to bring it out, then could use different buttons to play music. Then, you would cancel out of it by pressing down taunt again.

It would be especially great if it played OoT jingles when you did the right inputs.

I love this idea. Flavorful and fun!

 

[Garteam]

I still hold a little hope that BotW Link is a newcomer. Link, as a character, is never the same person. Smash 64 to Melee worked, since it was the same Link. Melee to Brawl too, because OoT and TP Link are among the most similar Links, plus they're related. Then comes Smash 4 and Skyward Sword Link is overlooked. SS Link has no boomerang, and he's a trained knight of sorts. His swordsmanship is much more refined compared to OoT and TP Link's wilder style. It made sense to overlook him taking that and Zelda/lack of Ganondorf into consideration.

But now Breath of the Wild comes in, and we know Wild Link is in the game. How will Wild Link fit into Link's previous moveset? His bombs are drastically different, and he lacks a hook/clawshot. Would they change the moveset to reflect those? Or will they just leave the bombs the same and change the clawshot for Magnesis? Among the Zelda characters, Link is the best represented by a big margin. His unrefined sword style has always felt in-character and his kicks help show he is not a swordsman. All items work like they do in the games. Ignoring the big change in bombs and using Magnesis as a grab/a normal grab would be a step back from current Link.

Wild Link is vastly different from OoT/TP Link. Even though he once was a swordsmanship prodigy, he's forgotten how to fight. For most of the game Wild Link scavenges for weapons and uses them as a means to survive until he gets the Master Sword, and even then gameplay forces you to use other weapons. Limiting this Link to just the Master Sword seems a tad unfair compared to how well current Link's moveset has fit his past designs.

Having Wild Link just be a cosmetic replacement would be very different from how Link has been treated. A Wild Link newcomer would also mitigate the issue with Ganondorf not having a matching design. Keeping TP Link, Ganondorf and Zelda like they are, giving Zelda a BotW costume and adding Wild Link as a newcomer seems like the best option for all the characters, unless reworks are happening. I don't think having three Links is an issue, since they would all be different persons. You'd have to be pretty ignorant of the franchise to complain about "Link" taking three spots, and at that point I don't think that person's opinions should matter.

Zelda, on the other hand, has a loosely fitting moveset, and having a BotW design go with it is not as much of a stretch.

This is the exact feeling I have. BOTW Link is a major departure from the Link of previous games. Unlike the humble farm boys and wannabe Kokiris that previous Links were, Wild Link is a nobleman who is trained in combat and thusly defers from the unrefined, broad sword style that other Links have. Plus, while the other Links relied more heavily on tools, Wild Link relies more on the Shiekah slate, which gives him a completely different power set. Seeing Wild Link use the classic Smash Link's moveset (which I sadly think is what will happen) will be kinda strange, plus changing the classic moveset too much will alienate those who played Link in the past and wash over the other versions of Link which are represented in that moveset.

I know a lot of people aren't huge on the idea of a third Link, but I really feel that giving Wild Link his own slot separate from vanilla Link would work best. That being said, I sadly think we'll probably just have Wild Link as the default design of an otherwise changed Link. The most I could realistically see happen is Link getting some aesthetic upgrades on a handful of his attacks to better match BOTW (such as his bombs).

 

[osby]

Yeah, he's responsible for setting up the openings in terms of determining content and timing. At least, that's how it went with Melee, but I don't think there's any reason to suppose that it changed.

Openings, sure, but he's no longer works in Nintendo so I'm a bit suprised. If I'm not wrong, Nintendo was the one who designed the box art for last two games.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

In completely unrelated news, I really want Sheik to have a taunt where she plays the Goddess Harp.

Imagine if you could press down taunt to bring it out, then could use different buttons to play music. Then, you would cancel out of it by pressing down taunt again.

It would be especially great if it played OoT jingles when you did the right inputs.

Smash doesn't really have enough inputs for a real instrument like Big Band's

Spoiler: Reference for those unfamiliar

But you could definitely have OoT inputs that would let you do all of those songs.

Openings, sure, but he's no longer works in Nintendo so I'm a bit suprised. If I'm not wrong, Nintendo was the one who designed the box art for last two games.

There's a massive difference between making the opening for a game and the box art.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

But Ganondorf is not in breath of the wild.

That doesn't necessarily mean that the developers can't make a Ganondorf model that would depict what he could've looked like in Breath of the Wild. Sheik wasn't in Twilight Princess, and yet her model was updated to follow the art style of that game.

 

[Fenriraga]

Honestly I want to see if they can BOTW-ify Ganondorf. They did it with Shiek in Brawl to match her up to TP, I'd love to see what a Ganondorf could look like in BOTW's style.

I can picture him with Guardian sort of armor.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the developers can't make a Ganondorf model that would depict what he could've looked like in Breath of the Wild. Sheik wasn't in Twilight Princess, and yet her model was updated to follow the art style of that game.

Because there was already a concept art. Not the same situation here.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Ganondorf had a costume in BotW too

 

[Pacack]

Ganondorf had a costume in BotW too
View attachment 145601

Honestly, if they use anything from BotW for Ganondorf, I hope it's this.

Yes, 80% of the reason is because I like that cape.

 

[Zeox]

Ganondorf had a costume in BotW too
View attachment 145601

But that's just his looks of Phantom Ganon in Ocarina of time:

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

But that's just his looks of Phantom Ganon in Ocarina of time:

Well it's in BotW and rendered in a style that would match botw Link and Zelda.

Perhaps we have a winner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[IntelliHeath1]

Wait, trailers made by Sakurai? I thought they were done by Nintendo.

It just seems that ex-worker implied that Sakurai put a lot of notes on trailer and gameplay so some workers would follow on that. That's my assumption.

I would like to assume that Sakurai write the scripts for those introductions and trailers but I'm willing to be proved as wrong if there is an official source that pointed otherwise.

 

[Zeox]

Well it's in BotW and rendered in a style that would match botw Link and Zelda.

Perhaps we have a winner ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Honestly, I wouldn't complain... as long as is not again a clone of captain falcon...

 

[Aurane]

Honestly, I wouldn't complain... as long as is not again a clone of captain falcon...

Prepare for disappointment, bucko.

 

[Bowserlick]

TP Ganondorf done up in the cell-shaded style of Breath of the Wild would be instantly fitting.

But then you can go further (longer hair, Guardian armor/relics) to further enhance the image.

 

[Zeox]

Prepare for disappointment, bucko.

Aw shet Captain Ganon strikes again

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Honestly, I wouldn't complain... as long as is not again a clone of captain falcon...

This isn't really a topic I'm overly invested in, just figured I'd throw out that costume as a possibility. They can do whatever the heck they want to Ganondorf if ya ask me.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I think ideally the Link from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild would replace the main "Link", new moveset and all, and Toon Link would stick around for those who liked Link's original moveset.

 

[Pacack]

Honestly, my ideal would be having both OoT and TP Ganondorf done in the BotW shading style. That way, Sakurai doesn't have to ask for a new design from the Zelda team, but he still looks like he fits.

 

[Aurane]

Ganondorf should retain his HW form for the next Smash game.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Ganondorf should retain his HW form for the next Smash game.

Hilariously enough, that's the one thing I hope they don't do. I don't want any main canon character to appear as their spin off title self, regardless of how cool they look.

 

[Aurane]

Hilariously enough, that's the one thing I hope they don't do. I don't want any main canon character to appear as their spin off title self, regardless of how cool they look.

Yeah but if they do, that makes it a requirement to alter Ganondorf's moveset into a dual-wielding anime villian.

Priorities, Bradli.

 

[Zeox]

Wait, since Link is gonna be from breath of the wild... that means... these could be alts!?

Spoiler