Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[One winged Devil]

I mean if it's done well then it's not really tokenism unless it's only one person of color.

Trust me I know quite a lot of this since I plan to become a writer.

Anyway blah blah this talk politics is broing, I like running better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I choose Samus Returns over Xenoblade, cause I own a 3DS XL and not the New version. So that made the choice easier...

 

[Nielicus]

I find it kind of strange that they manage to have such a big roster and all the humans are white/East Asian*, but I also really don't think tokenism is they way to go. Personally I'm a fan of Sandman from Punchout, but that's because he's a) the big rival; b) could actually do the powerhouse boxer thing and let Little Mac play more appropriately to his style; and also c) is cool in his own right. I find it weird how everyone always talks about Doc Louis instead...
That being said, promoting identity politics is kind of antithetical to meaningful social progress. Characterizing people with those sorts of labels as though they were intrinsically meaningful does nothing but perpetuate that those labels are meaningful rather than getting past them and treating everyone like they're just people.

*I just remembered ICs in this context and then wished that I hadn't

I completely disagree and representation does not equal tokenism. What I said may highlight a specific group of people but it is not identity politics, you don't see a lot of major black characters in gaming that often, especially not Black women so I'm in my right to want a character for that reason among others. I'm gonna end this conversation here though because it's not the forum for this type of discussion.

 

[ZAHÍRITΣiΚΛ]

I honestly believe everyone from 4 is returning and not just because the leak.

Looking at the past games, especially Brawl to 4, shows that not many non-clones get cut for reasons other than time and hardware constraints. Time constraints that are now meaningless thanks to DLC.

The only characters I can truly see never returning are Pichu, Young Link, and Snake. Pichu cause... well it was a joke Pikachu that hurt itself. Young Link technically never even left and just became Toon Link... and Snake because... well we all know what happened there.

 

[osby]

I honestly believe everyone from 4 is returning and not just because the leak.

Looking at the past games, especially Brawl to 4, shows that not many non-clones get cut for reasons other than time and hardware constraints. Time constraints that are now meaningless thanks to DLC.

The only characters I can truly see never returning are Pichu, Young Link, and Snake. Pichu cause... well it was a joke Pikachu that hurt itself. Young Link technically never even left and just became Toon Link... and Snake because... well we all know what happened there.

Time constraints still an issue. They can't bring every single character with DLC, that's probably why Wolf didn't returned. I, too, don't see many cuts, but still it's a risk post release content doesn't completely erase.

Young Link did left. While Toon Link is his spiritual successor, their moveset are not exactly the same and they are not the same character. It's just Toon Link visualizes the idea behind Young Link in a better way.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I completely disagree and representation does not equal tokenism. What I said may highlight a specific group of people but it is not identity politics, you don't see a lot of major black characters in gaming that often, especially not Black women so I'm in my right to want a character for that reason among others. I'm gonna end this conversation here though because it's not the forum for this type of discussion.

I love how I've now gotten two "I don't agree with you for x, y, and z reasons, but also we shouldn't talk about this so I declare that I have the last word." I'm sensing a pattern...

The only characters I can truly see never returning are Pichu, Young Link, and Snake. Pichu cause... well it was a joke Pikachu that hurt itself. Young Link technically never even left and just became Toon Link... and Snake because... well we all know what hsppehap there.

Honestly I wish they'd bring Pichu back even though they obviously never will. He was a joke character, but he was an easy to produce one who had a unique mechanic, so what's the harm? I can think of no reason other than the inevitable outcry from the minority of people who think clones take up slots new characters could have had. I hope that doesn't weigh too heavily, but given the poor reviews Sakurai reported, I fear there won't be too many new clones...

 

[osby]

Honestly I wish they'd bring Pichu back even though they obviously never will. He was a joke character, but he was an easy to produce one who had a unique mechanic, so what's the harm? I can think of no reason other than the inevitable outcry from the minority of people who think clones take up slots new characters could have had. I hope that doesn't weigh too heavily, but given the poor reviews Sakurai reported, I fear there won't be too many new clones...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes a few clones now and then. But, yeah, I doubt Dark Pit and Lucina's scenario will repeat. And poor reviews? Oh, he had to justify why they were in the game, right?

 

[Jak_spoon]

I honestly believe everyone from 4 is returning and not just because the leak.

Looking at the past games, especially Brawl to 4, shows that not many non-clones get cut for reasons other than time and hardware constraints. Time constraints that are now meaningless thanks to DLC.

The only characters I can truly see never returning are Pichu, Young Link, and Snake. Pichu cause... well it was a joke Pikachu that hurt itself. Young Link technically never even left and just became Toon Link... and Snake because... well we all know what happened there.

I mean it doesn’t make sense right? A lot of these clones are added in last minute. How could they know if everyone is coming back yet?

 

[Deleted member]

No.

Imagine Meowth...

But instead of acting like TR Meowth...

Or a real cat....

He acts like Tom from Tom and Jerry.

COMPLETE WITH VOICE!

I think this is an... interesting concept.
Pikachu would be the Jerry-like character, because Pikahcu is a mouse, and they are opposites kind of.
Maybe they can be rivals in Subspace?

 

[SchAlternate]

(Is it bad I'd rather have Pichu over a second Pokemon newcomer?)

 

[osby]

(Is it bad I'd rather have Pichu over a second Pokemon newcomer?)

Nope, I'm kinda like that too. But any newcomer will probably have a original moveset so it's not like you can get one over another.

 

[Nekoo]

Guys.
We barely manage to get along about SERIES representations.
Imagine if we had to start colors and race representation.

On a ****ing Nintendo games.

My only take on the matter will be the same as Lara Croft. A character should be added for their Games merits and Gameplay potential. Not because of their genders- or race representation... Probably why the "female icons" argument doesn't work for me-

Please E3 come faster.

 

[Jak_spoon]

Just add Jinx. Problem solved. =P

 

[Diddy Kong]

I actually had a dream where Young Link returned, and somehow it was in Smash 4 lol... But hear me out tho! He felt real fast! Like.. a legitimate speedster! His projectiles where real fast as well, but not real strong. He had Bombchus instead of Bombs, his Bow was real fast but a sort of spammable projectile, and the Boomerang worked much like in Melee, being strong at the very start of the move and all.

Yeah I know he's kinda obsolute with Toon Link around. And 3 Links is not something I'd really want to see, but.. It could be done in a good way. I'd want this if the roster is more than ~85 or so characters.

 

[ErenJager]

I actually had a dream where Young Link returned, and somehow it was in Smash 4 lol... But hear me out tho! He felt real fast! Like.. a legitimate speedster! His projectiles where real fast as well, but not real strong. He had Bombchus instead of Bombs, his Bow was real fast but a sort of spammable projectile, and the Boomerang worked much like in Melee, being strong at the very start of the move and all.

Yeah I know he's kinda obsolute with Toon Link around. And 3 Links is not something I'd really want to see, but.. It could be done in a good way. I'd want this if the roster is more than ~85 or so characters.

I usually have dreams of my teeth falling out or something.

 

[lltacx]

Pauline sings and is loyal to Mario...that in itself is good enough for her to atleast be a background stage singer for an Odyssey stage

OMG you amazing person! You just reminded me we we’ll 100% for sure get “Jump Up Superstar” song in Smash! I didn’t even think about it :D

 

[Diddy Kong]

I usually have dreams of my teeth falling out or something.

I dream a lot as of late.

 

[osby]

I actually had a dream where Young Link returned, and somehow it was in Smash 4 lol... But hear me out tho! He felt real fast! Like.. a legitimate speedster! His projectiles where real fast as well, but not real strong. He had Bombchus instead of Bombs, his Bow was real fast but a sort of spammable projectile, and the Boomerang worked much like in Melee, being strong at the very start of the move and all.

Yeah I know he's kinda obsolute with Toon Link around. And 3 Links is not something I'd really want to see, but.. It could be done in a good way. I'd want this if the roster is more than ~85 or so characters.

I'm sure people would complain about it even if we have 90+ characters.

 

[SquashiniKun]

I had a smash 5 related dream, but i can only remember 3 things from it.

-Rex and Pyra, Tibby and Sora were revealed during the E3 Direct
-The theme song of smash 5 had lyrics and vocals in it
-The menu looked like a combination of every smash bros game's menu.

 

[Troykv]

At least the Gerudo are seen in a positive light since the beginning in BotW XD

I just wanted to say that; its time to stop the diversity thing.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Oddly enough, I've had a few Smash Dreams but they all involve E. Gadd making the cut.
I don't even support the guy. Nothing against him, I'm just not a fan.

 

[SvartWolf]

Young Link did left. While Toon Link is his spiritual successor, their moveset are not exactly the same and they are not the same character. It's just Toon Link visualizes the idea behind Young Link in a better way.

on a different note, i totally disagree with that. do you mean that link was cut from brawl to 4? his moveset arent the same. same with ganondorf, why young link would been cut, instead of having a slight declonification update, while ganondorf wasnt while having a slight declonification update in the same game?

is just the name change? if mii fighters get named mii warriors this game does it means that mii fighters get cut?


regarding the other conversation. Urbosa is still the best champion

 

[Cosmic77]

Rosalina was added because Sakurai wanted to add a puppet character, and she best fit that idea. Further, she was from a game that had insane levels of popularity and she had appeared in notable spinoffs before she was added to Smash.

The Champions aren't a valid comparison. The success of BotW, while expected to a degree, could not have been predicted by Sakurai in advance.

As I said in my previous quote, there was absolutely nothing Rosalina had ever done in the games that would've caused Sakurai to automatically think she'd be a puppet character with Luma. The concept is so unique that there's no way he could've come up with something like that on the spot; her moveset was something he had to sit down and really think about, meaning he didn't write her off just for being too new. Yeah, her game of origin was popular and it had been out for a while, but just like the Champions, she was still pale in comparison to other more iconic options. Daisy, Waluigi, Toad, and Bowser Jr. had been making dozens of appearances in Mario spin-offs for over a decade. Rosalina had only appeared in four games (SMG, SMG2, MKWii, and MK7). For a Mario character, that ain't much.

It doesn't line up perfectly, but I think the comparison works. You have two (technically five) characters from a major Nintendo franchise who a lot of people wrote off because there was no way in heck they'd get in before the "more obvious" choices. The biggest difference between the two is that Galaxy had been out for a few years, while BotW was unreleased. You're right about Sakurai not knowing if BotW would be successful, but based off the timing and the reception to the game at E3 2016, something tells me he'd at least want to be aware of any potential newcomers from this game.

Further, each character has the story focus vaguely on them for less than one fourth of the total story. That's it.

The champions have nothing except relevency going for them, which is something no character has been exclusively added for save Pokemon, which is a special case that has been explained.

And aside from Link and Zelda, who else from BotW got that much screen time? Even if they weren't center spotlight, they're still a major part of the story in BotW. Honestly, it's no different than someone trying to make a case for Impa by using her appearances in OoT and SS.

Just relevancy? Relevance don't mean squat if your game wasn't notable (Just ask Henry Fleming and Tethu). Characters also have to have moveset potential for Sakurai to consider them, and that's something the Champions certainly have. However, even if we focus on the Champions' relevancy by itself, that's still one of the most important factors for Sakurai in choosing newcomers. Almost the entire list of Smash 4 newcomers were relevant around the time they were chosen, many of which actually debuted in the time between Brawl and Smash 4. Even if relevancy really was all the Champions had, that's still a pretty big advantage, especially since a majority of their competition is relying entirely on a spin-off game.

Roy? Easy clone material. Corrin? Promotion for an upcoming game. Alph you can almost argue, but even then, he's only a costume.

Champions? Promotion for fairly new and popular Zelda game on the Switch.

Seriously, you can make a case for practically any character with this method. It's just randomly picking a reason why a character would make sense in Smash.

Skull Kid? One of the most iconic Zelda villains of all time.
Tingle? Only other Zelda character to get his own game.
Impa? One of the only recurring Zelda characters not on the roster.

Explaining why a character is on the roster is one thing, but making a case for that character long before they even get revealed is completely different. I can guarantee you plenty of people would make a counter argument for Corrin if you stated that back in mid 2015. Likewise, any of these Zelda characters could get in Smash, and everyone would act like it was the most predictable and understandable decision Sakurai ever made.

If you want to argue that one of them is extremely unique and would draw Sakurai's attention, then...who? What about any of the champions is so interesting that it dwarfs the likes of Impa, the most recurring Zelda character not already in Smash?

What is it about Impa that's so interesting that it dwarfs the likes of Skull Kid or Midna?

This is all about perspective. More specifically, Sakurai's perspective. I couldn't tell you whether or not Sakurai would think the Champions are more unique than Impa, but I can tell you that this would be Impa's fourth attempt at getting on the roster. If Sakurai couldn't add Impa back in Smash 4 when she was actually at a peak in her relevancy, why add her now? She ain't getting any younger, and with all the newer competition she's picked up along the way, getting in Smash is only gonna get harder and harder.

I've supported Impa and just about every other Zelda character at least once, but so far, it's been to no avail. That tells me that Sakurai doesn't see what we see in these characters, because if he did, they would've gotten on the roster a long time ago. Instead of banking on the same characters, I'm taking a step back and looking at things through a different perspective, and that perspective tells me to start looking at the atypical choices.

I'm having a hard time taking them even remotely seriously when you compare them to their competition...which is most of the Hyrule Warriors cast.

Likewise, I'm having a hard time taking Impa and the others seriously when they're relying on a spin-off game, one where virtually every notable Zelda character has to share the spotlight with others, to be enough to trump BotW, a highly anticipated game that was on everyone's minds when Sakurai started development.

 

[osby]

on a different note, i totally disagree with that. do you mean that link was cut from brawl to 4? his moveset arent the same. same with ganondorf, why young link would been cut, instead of having a slight declonification update, while ganondorf wasnt while having a slight declonification update in the same game?

is just the name change? if mii fighters get named mii warriors this game does it means that mii fighters get cut?


regarding the other conversation. Urbosa is still the best champion

Young Link is the protagonist of the Majora's Mask.
Toon Link is the protagonist of the Wind Waker.

Canon identifies them as seperate characters.

They don't look alike. They don't even share the same art style.

Their movesets are not same. Toon Link uses his sword for the moves where Young Link uses his legs. Their aerial attacks and bombs work differently.

Toon Link is a new character and can represent a famous art style, character and a game, rather than just being a younger Link. Ganondorf doesn't represent any other part of Link, he represents himself and appeared in the same game with Zelda and Link.

 

[lltacx]

Hey, they could always make Revali a Falco clone.

 

[Pazzo.]

With Link and Zelda having one alternate form each, maybe Ganon can come in to complete the Triforce.

Link - Toon
Zelda - Shiek
Ganon - Dorf

 

[Nielicus]

I love how I've now gotten two "I don't agree with you for x, y, and z reasons, but also we shouldn't talk about this so I declare that I have the last word." I'm sensing a pattern...

Well while you play Blue's Clues to figure out your pattern I just want to say that I do not think Twintelle should be added to Smash just off of representation, that is just something I want to see one day. I don't know why me wanting that is such a big deal. It's not debatable to me.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think I posted this back during the Smash 4 days, but I once dreamt that Sakurai revealed some sort of Mario Allstar amalgation of a character in a special video (I think this was just before the Smash Direct), so like for one attack Waluigi would come out and attack, then another attack would be Geno, then Toad, Bowser Jr, Daisy, Birdo, etc. They were all rolled into one big ball during their idle animation, and Sakurai was super proud of it.

 

[Zeox]

I think everyone that wants Goku in smash are pretty dumb... because Krillin is cleary the superior choice.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

With Link and Zelda having one alternate form each, maybe Ganon can come in to complete the Triforce.

Link - Toon
Zelda - Shiek
Ganon - Dorf

I really want this concept, but instead Toon Ganondorf. It will give us a Ganondorf that's more true to himself as well as keeping the Falcondorf. Also Toon Ganondorf is by far my favorite design.

Anyone else extremely nervous how they will handle Ganondorf's design in this game? I'm almost certain Link and Zelda will be their BOTW designs, and sheik will probably be based off Link's Sheikah outfit but what about Ganondorf? I really hope they don't stick him with the TP design as personally it is my least favorite, very ugly. Atleast give him alt costumes :/

Well while you play Blue's Clues to figure out your pattern I just want to say that I do not think Twintelle should be added to Smash just off of representation, that is just something I want to see one day. I don't know why me wanting that is such a big deal. It's not debatable to me.

I also find that whenever I bring up Twintelle being Smash's first black woman I'm told to back pedal and that characters shouldn't be added for the sake of diversity. Like, duh, but I also want her in because she's a queen and one of my favorite Nintendo characters now. (Not directed at you Moped, reffering to past times this was brought up reffering to Elma/Twintelle etc. I understand you aren't saying this at all.)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

OMG you amazing person! You just reminded me we we’ll 100% for sure get “Jump Up Superstar” song in Smash! I didn’t even think about it :D

I’ve been wanting that song in the game since I first heard it at E3 last year (matter of fact, Nintendo/Sakurai might as well make an album for Pauline singing Mario music)

I think everyone that wants Goku in smash are pretty dumb... because Krillin is cleary the superior choice.

Yamcha the Real Man’s Man >

 

[Cosmic77]

I know it's hard to beat Jump Up, Super Star!, but I'm surprised no one is freaking out about this song possibly being in Smash.

Spoiler

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I know it's hard to beat Jump Up, Super Star!, but I'm surprised no one is freaking out about this song possibly being in Smash.

Spoiler

I was thinking about this song aswell, but forgot the name of it...Sakurai better put this in Smash as well (and also make New Donk City a stage)

 

[Aurane]

>reads people saying Young Link has no chance

Hey **** you, my hope will never die. *techno*

 

[Zeox]

I really want to fight at the rhythm of this super catchy happy fun song:

Spoiler

 

[Arcadenik]

Imagine Meowth gets in Smash and everybody expects his anime voice only for it to be sakurai making cat noises with a filter

I would be okay with that. I just want to play as Meowth in Smash. Period.

Meowth! That's right!

 

[Zeox]

I would be okay with that. I just want to play as Meowth in Smash. Period.

Meowth! That's right!

They add Meowth but is an inverse pokemon trainer, Meowth is in the background and changes between Jessie or James to fight.

 

[SquashiniKun]

i have a **** ton of songs that i'd like to see in smash, these are just some of them

Spoiler: Honey Sweet Angel Of Love (Rhythm Heaven Silver)

Spoiler: WISH Can't Wait For You (Rhythm Heaven Silver)

Spoiler: Remix 8 (Rhythm Heaven)

Spoiler: I'm A Lady Now (Rhythm Heaven Megamix)

Spoiler: Akumajo Dracula Medley ~Hybrid Version~ (Pop'n Music 15: ADVENTURE)

Spoiler: Ghost Town (Sonic Forces)

Spoiler: Ruby Delusions (Sonic Mania)

Spoiler: Night Of Fate (Kingdom Hearts)

Spoiler: Desire For All That Is Lost (Kingdom Hearts 2)

Spoiler: The Encounter (Kingdom Hearts 2)

Spoiler: Wave Of Darkness (Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep 0.2)

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I know it's hard to beat Jump Up, Super Star!, but I'm surprised no one is freaking out about this song possibly being in Smash.

Spoiler

Assuming Mario Odyessey gets a good amount of content (which I am) this song will most likely be in, which is awesome!

Also Source gaming did a video on Alph and while I don't have the time to watch it now I generally agree with the high chance they gave him (85%). He's not on my prediction roster but I also wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai bumped him up like he almost did last game. It would be cool if he was playable and we got Brittany and Charlie as alts!

 

[monadoboy]

I know it's hard to beat Jump Up, Super Star!, but I'm surprised no one is freaking out about this song possibly being in Smash.

Spoiler

Yo, that's great. I need to play Odyssey smh.

There's so many great songs I want for Smash Switch. I hope the OST isn't as disappointing as 4's was.

Spoiler

Most wanted:

(I know this one's in the game but it kinda sucks)