Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Imagine Meowth gets in Smash and everybody expects his anime voice only for it to be sakurai making cat noises with a filter

And acting not at all like the TR Meowth.

Just a cat. :V

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And acting not at all like the TR Meowth.

Just a cat. :V

No.

Imagine Meowth...

But instead of acting like TR Meowth...

Or a real cat....

He acts like Tom from Tom and Jerry.

COMPLETE WITH VOICE!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Enough to crash Smashboards for like a entire week.

Depending the outcome, we could get a real "Crashboards".

 

[Gameboi834]

So here's a question for you: Are there any characters that others seem to think is a shoe-in that you don't see happening?

For me it's Elma. I just don't see her getting in over Rex and Pyra.

 

[Darkraid]

I am seeing many sites reporting on the rumor (ridley, IC and Simon)

many ppl will be mad if it is untrue,

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If is true. I'm sure it's reached Sakurai by now.

 

[SchAlternate]

No.

Imagine Meowth...

But instead of acting like TR Meowth...

Or a real cat....

He acts like Tom from Tom and Jerry.

COMPLETE WITH VOICE!

I mean, he's sort of the Tom of Pikachu's Jerry, if you think about it.

 

[Pacack]

So here's a question for you: Are there any characters that others seem to think is a shoe-in that you don't see happening?

For me it's Elma. I just don't see her getting in over Rex and Pyra.

Oh, definitely.

For me it's Rex amd Pyra. I just don't see them getting in before Elma.

Really, though, it's because Rex and Pyra's game came out after roster selection finalized.

 

[Deleted member]

No.

Imagine Meowth...

But instead of acting like TR Meowth...

Or a real cat....

He acts like Tom from Tom and Jerry.

COMPLETE WITH VOICE!

....does this mean he does the scream when Star KOed?

I want.

EDIT:
Or just this in general.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm hoping for Mimkyu but I have to be honest in saying it may look weird seeing him in action this way, also I'm rooting for Twintelle for a dope moveset and Black women representation. I can't want for this game, the anticipation is killing me ahh!

This.

Also a reason I wanted Skyward Sword Impa, even though she doesn't really count as "black", but at least non-white and dark skinned.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This.

Also a reason I wanted Skyward Sword Impa, even though she doesn't really count as "black", but at least non-white and dark skinned.

Psst!

Elma does the same thing and she's a main character.

 

[Darkraid]

Here is my prediction for Smash bros Switch.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Psst!

Elma does the same thing and she's a main character.

*remembers the game's ending* Yeah... About that...

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I'm rooting for Twintelle for a dope moveset and Black women representation.

I find it kind of strange that they manage to have such a big roster and all the humans are white/East Asian*, but I also really don't think tokenism is they way to go. Personally I'm a fan of Sandman from Punchout, but that's because he's a) the big rival; b) could actually do the powerhouse boxer thing and let Little Mac play more appropriately to his style; and also c) is cool in his own right. I find it weird how everyone always talks about Doc Louis instead...
That being said, promoting identity politics is kind of antithetical to meaningful social progress. Characterizing people with those sorts of labels as though they were intrinsically meaningful does nothing but perpetuate that those labels are meaningful rather than getting past them and treating everyone like they're just people.

*I just remembered ICs in this context and then wished that I hadn't

 

[Captain Shwampy]

If another Sonic character gets in i hope their poster art parodies this

 

[Jubileus57]

If another Sonic character gets in i hope their poster art parodies this

Isn't that very similar to the Bayonetta poster already?

 

[Deleted member]

So here's a question for you: Are there any characters that others seem to think is a shoe-in that you don't see happening?

Isabelle by far is the biggest example I can think of on my end.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Isn't that very similar to the Bayonetta poster already?

I just want to see Uwekawa draw Nintendo characters. We were blessed once with Uwekawa Miku and now I want to see him draw Mario.

 

[Nu~]

That being said, promoting identity politics is kind of antithetical to meaningful social progress. Characterizing people with those sorts of labels as though they were intrinsically meaningful does nothing but perpetuate that those labels are meaningful rather than getting past them and treating everyone like they're just people.

*I just remembered ICs in this context and then wished that I hadn't

Depends. Historical context and discriminatory power dynamics do add meaning to said labels whether those in power would like to ignore them or not.
I don’t want to assume on your behalf but your perspective sounds a lot like “colorblindness” which is equally as insufficient as tokenism.


**** why am I continuing this lol. I wanted to add something important I feel before leaving it at that

 

[Diddy Kong]

Psst!

Elma does the same thing and she's a main character.

Well, she's cool in my book then too! Though I wonder if she'd be included because her game didn't seem to have done well.

 

[osby]

I find it kind of strange that they manage to have such a big roster and all the humans are white/East Asian*, but I also really don't think tokenism is they way to go. Personally I'm a fan of Sandman from Punchout, but that's because he's a) the big rival; b) could actually do the powerhouse boxer thing and let Little Mac play more appropriately to his style; and also c) is cool in his own right. I find it weird how everyone always talks about Doc Louis instead...
That being said, promoting identity politics is kind of antithetical to meaningful social progress. Characterizing people with those sorts of labels as though they were intrinsically meaningful does nothing but perpetuate that those labels are meaningful rather than getting past them and treating everyone like they're just people.

*I just remembered ICs in this context and then wished that I hadn't

Does Sheik counts? Or if you make your Mii as the minority you want to be represented?

To be honest, the game is developed by primarily Japanese people so I don't know why they would care. Last game focused on adding more female characters, so representation is in developers' minds.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well, she's cool in my book then too! Though I wonder if she'd be included because her game didn't seem to have done well.

Eh?

Xenoblade Chonicles X was considered a success and sold well for a Wii U game.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It would be cool if Simon Belmont's character poster for Smash (if he get's in) parodied the original Castlevania NES box art with Dracula's face and castle being replaced with Bowser's.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Eh?

Xenoblade Chonicles X was considered a success and sold well for a Wii U game.

Ohhh... Well, always thought it did worse than the first Xenoblade. I'd be in for Elma, her playstyle seems unique enough to warrant inclusion. Yet she faces competition from Rex perhaps. I'll be curious to see what Xenoblade newcomer they'll include, even if I never played one of the games.

I really SHOULD go about and get that Xenoblade for 3DS tho. Not sure if it's worth getting over Samus Returns however.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ohhh... Well, always thought it did worse than the first Xenoblade. I'd be in for Elma, her playstyle seems unique enough to warrant inclusion. Yet she faces competition from Rex perhaps. I'll be curious to see what Xenoblade newcomer they'll include, even if I never played one of the games.

I really SHOULD go about and get that Xenoblade for 3DS tho. Not sure if it's worth getting over Samus Returns however.

It depends what you want, an RPG or a MetroidVania. Your hands can kinda hurt after extensive Samus Returns play but it's a lot shorter than Xenoblade

 

[Diddy Kong]

It depends what you want, an RPG or a MetroidVania. Your hands can kinda hurt after extensive Samus Returns play but it's a lot shorter than Xenoblade

Yeah I had that feeling as well. My hands are generally too big for my 3DS XL, but I can play Smash 3DS just fine on it. Still plays less smooth than the Wii U version however.. might just need to adjust a little.

Might just go check which I can get the cheapest then...

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Depends. Historical context and discriminatory power dynamics do add meaning to said labels whether those in power would like to ignore them or not.
I don’t want to assume on your behalf but your perspective sounds a lot like “colorblindness” which is equally as insufficient as tokenism.


**** why am I continuing this lol. I wanted to add something important I feel before leaving it at that

Responding to the second part of that, I think that that's a totally legitimate response, except that I wasn't advocating for colorblindness except in the context where it's a negation of affirmative-action-style judgments. There are many reasons for this, but a decent starting point is: You want strong black characters in the game? If they're strong characters, they should be able to get by on merits that aren't based on their race. There are then legitimate rebuttals to this: "But Japanese media has a powerful bias towards pseudo-white Asians (and actual whites, sometimes) over any other race, making those characters harder to find." But tokenism still just makes it look like black characters are included for basically political reasons rather than because there can be good black characters, undermining whatever it is that you want to accomplish in the long run.
Since what my general perspective is has been brought up, I'll clarify that I think pretending these things don't exist is absurd, but there's a difference between acknowledgement and identity politics, despite what some might have you believe.

Historical context and discriminatory power dynamics do add meaning to said labels whether those in power would like to ignore them or not.

"Those in power" is not a safe assumption to make in this community. Beyond that, I have a hard time taking this seriously when we're talking about fictional characters. Twintelle didn't need to overcome discrimination to get where she is, the popularity of certain black, female, american celebrities led to a prominent type of fetishization and that combined with the recent wave of blaxploitation masked as progressivism made adding a character with her design a good marketing decision because they were able to hit two usefully large demographics at once. As far as I can tell, that's most of what she is and I don't find that to be useful for anything.
This is a really weird discussion to be having here, but I guess since we've talked about meta ethics, it's not too far out of line. Also not technically off-topic.

Does Sheik counts? Or if you make your Mii as the minority you want to be represented?

To be honest, the game is developed by primarily Japanese people so I don't know why they would care. Last game focused on adding more female characters, so representation is in developers' minds.

Wearing a turban does not make you an Arab, if that's what you're asking. You make a good point about Miis, though. It's also very possible that Inklings will have variable skin colors since they do in their own games.
You're also right that the devs probably don't care, but since the game sells a lot in the west and many westerners care, it's not out of the question that it would impact their decisions.

 

[osby]

Wearing a turban does not make you an Arab, if that's what you're asking.

I don't think she's supposed to be a part of any real nation or race. I'm just asking if we count Zelda or Marth as white (or Caucasian) even though they technically aren't, shouldn't also Sheik count as non-white?

Also, she doesn't wear a turban, nor a headscarf. It lacks a base hat which turban requires.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

I don't think she's supposed to be a part of any real nation or race. I'm just asking if we count Zelda or Marth as white (or Caucasian) even though they technically aren't, shouldn't also Sheik count as non-white?

Both of them are meant as analogues to being Caucasian as far as I know, so it's probably the most accurate in this case to just say that they are.
I'm not touching Ganondorf, but he and ICs are the only ones that might not fall in that spectrum among the humanesque characters.

Also, she doesn't wear a turban, nor a headscarf. It lacks a base hat which turban requires.

My mistake, thank you for informing me.

 

[Zinith]

Did I just enter into a political back-and-forth? Okay then, I'm gone...

 

[osby]

Did I just enter into a political back-and-forth? Okay then, I'm gone...

Don't worry, we just finished.

 

[Nu~]

Responding to the second part of that, I think that that's a totally legitimate response, except that I wasn't advocating for colorblindness except in the context where it's a negation of affirmative-action-style judgments. There are many reasons for this, but a decent starting point is: You want strong black characters in the game? If they're strong characters, they should be able to get by on merits that aren't based on their race. There are then legitimate rebuttals to this: "But Japanese media has a powerful bias towards pseudo-white Asians (and actual whites, sometimes) over any other race, making those characters harder to find." But tokenism still just makes it look like black characters are included for basically political reasons rather than because there can be good black characters, undermining whatever it is that you want to accomplish in the long run.


Since what my general perspective is has been brought up, I'll clarify that I think pretending these things don't exist is absurd, but there's a difference between acknowledgement and identity politics, despite what some might have you believe.

"Those in power" is not a safe assumption to make in this community. Beyond that, I have a hard time taking this seriously when we're talking about fictional characters. Twintelle didn't need to overcome discrimination to get where she is, the popularity of certain black, female, american celebrities led to a prominent type of fetishization and that combined with the recent wave of blaxploitation masked as progressivism made adding a character with her design a good marketing decision because they were able to hit two usefully large demographics at once. As far as I can tell, that's most of what she is and I don't find that to be useful for anything.
.

I like this a lot. You make excellent points and I pretty much agree with everything here. I do wanna clarify what I was saying, however. For example, when I said “those in power” I was speaking about the broader context of our reality (I probably shouldn’t have been so vague there), not the video game universe.

Also, in regards to Twintelle being in smash, I meant to make the argument that representation of strong black characters in media helps to build the self-esteem of a young black audience in a world that constantly tries to tell us the opposite, but you bring up a good point that the intentions companies have while doing so is and has never really been pure.


Yea... it never fails to disgust me that the intersection of capitalism and racism makes it so that companies can profit off of perceived progress while keeping us in the same place. Thanks for responding and clarifying, man.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly, the progress is more about how the society views it and less about what the companies intended.

Uncle Tom's Cabin played a huge part in the humanization of black people around the globe in its time (my how we've grown), but it wasn't necessarily intended to do so.

That said, I think we're over thinking this, and assuming the worst of said companies.

 

[Zippo]

Vergeben is so hit and miss, it's hard to say what could happen here. He's either dead on or completely wrong. I'll put the chances at 50/50, only because Star Fox Grand Prix does very much seem to be a thing.

 

[One winged Devil]

I find it kind of strange that they manage to have such a big roster and all the humans are white/East Asian*, but I also really don't think tokenism is they way to go. Personally I'm a fan of Sandman from Punchout, but that's because he's a) the big rival; b) could actually do the powerhouse boxer thing and let Little Mac play more appropriately to his style; and also c) is cool in his own right. I find it weird how everyone always talks about Doc Louis instead...
That being said, promoting identity politics is kind of antithetical to meaningful social progress. Characterizing people with those sorts of labels as though they were intrinsically meaningful does nothing but perpetuate that those labels are meaningful rather than getting past them and treating everyone like they're just people.

*I just remembered ICs in this context and then wished that I hadn't

Bruh all he said was that it would be cool to have black character in Smash, he never said she should be in only because she was black, everything else you just said is basically you saying that race doesn't matter which is pretty ****ing bad.

Word to the wise you REALLY need to think about what you said about race because right now you look pretty silly.

And that's not even getting into the fact that you said identity politics are bad but this isn't a place for that so please let's not go there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The fact there aren't many black characters is easy to explain unfortuntely. Up untill the early 2000s, black main characters where not all too common. Especially in long running franchises. It's because media wasn't really reaching out to all communities back in the day that gaming became huge. In Japan especially, as they tried to aim mostly towards American and European audiences as well as their own.

Recently, there's been a huge change in this. And I don't think it's 100% neccesarily to have a token black or different ethnic character just for the sake of it. But if it IS possible, I fully support it.

Hopefully we'll see more games in the future based on say, African culture, politics and ways of life, as opposed to the overdone Middle Age Europe and Samurai-era of Japan where a lot of games are basing their overall theme on. For example, I'd really love a African-themed Fire Emblem game. A spear wielding main character there would really make a lot of sense here. My own ideas have it based on the story of King Melenik, a former king of Ethiopia who had legendary battlefield prowess/

Am pretty sure gaming will see a huge cultural revolution soon. Nintendo is somewhat lacking behind in this, and maybe it's because of the way fan favorite franchises are handled. I don't expect Zelda to get another theme besides the Eurasian Middle Age / steampunk theme they have going on for example, but a little diversity can be done in many certain sort of ways.

 

[Nu~]

Honestly, the progress is more about how the society views it and less about what the companies intended.

Uncle Tom's Cabin played a huge part in the humanization of black people around the globe in its time (my how we've grown), but it wasn't necessarily intended to do so.

That said, I think we're over thinking this, and assuming the worst of said companies.

Typically companies don’t analyze or address the problems tho, they’ll instead simply reference or describe the problems (usually for...less than benign purposes) while doing nothing to help.

Hopefully we'll see more games in the future based on say, African culture, politics and ways of life, as opposed to the overdone Middle Age Europe and Samurai-era of Japan where a lot of games are basing their overall theme on. For example, I'd really love a African-themed Fire Emblem game. A spear wielding main character there would really make a lot of sense here. My own ideas have it based on the story of King Melenik, a former king of Ethiopia who had legendary battlefield prowess/

This would be awesome. I’d love a game based on the Zulu warriors

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Honestly, the progress is more about how the society views it and less about what the companies intended.

This is missing the point in kind of an alarming way.

That said, I think we're over thinking this, and assuming the worst of said companies.

The issue is that if we're enabling what amounts to cynical manipulation of issues that are central to people's lives and to entire communities, the game ceases to be about doing good and more about keeping up the appearance of doing good by whatever means gives the greatest profit margin (e.g. charities where the bulk of the income if devoted to "overhead" rather than helping people). Progress becomes a branding element more than a real thing. Never underestimate the ability of capitalism to institutionalize degenerative pandering.

I'm not saying you're wrong about the possibility of social change from an unintended/insincere source, I'm just saying we can't give free passes to companies cashing in on trends.

Also what Nu~ said.

I do wanna clarify what I was saying, however. For example, when I said “those in power” I was speaking about the broader context of our reality (I probably shouldn’t have been so vague there), not the video game universe.

I wasn't going to mention this except that I was responding to something else anyway, but I was the one being unclear, not you, since I knew that that's what you meant, my response just got slightly garbled.

Hopefully we'll see more games in the future based on say, African culture, politics and ways of life, as opposed to the overdone Middle Age Europe and Samurai-era of Japan where a lot of games are basing their overall theme on. For example, I'd really love a African-themed Fire Emblem game. A spear wielding main character there would really make a lot of sense here. My own ideas have it based on the story of King Melenik, a former king of Ethiopia who had legendary battlefield prowess

Am pretty sure gaming will see a huge cultural revolution soon. Nintendo is somewhat lacking behind in this, and maybe it's because of the way fan favorite franchises are handled. I don't expect Zelda to get another theme besides the Eurasian Middle Age / steampunk theme they have going on for example, but a little diversity can be done in many certain sort of ways.

Here's where I lose everyone: I don't think you're wrong about African nations having untapped potential, but I think it's also completely beside the point of doing any good in relation to most of black America. Not because of anything previously mentioned, but because the people who were descended from slaves mostly had connections to their ancestral culture annihilated. Essentially, it makes more sense to treat the typical African American as being of a different race from the typical African*. There are exceptions to this, but those are still exceptions.
On account of that, America is really the best setting if you want something more relevant to them. Why not have a new installment to the Mother franchise that actually has black people? Earthbound is a touch whitewashed, and where it isn't it has East Asians. It's still a great game, but the would setting more than justify having the same racial demographic distribution as you see in America because, well, it is.
Also I'd just really like a new Mother.

*Yes, I know, "dark continent" and all that, but you know what I mean and it's 4:30 in the morning.

Bruh all he said was that it would be cool to have black character in Smash, he never said she should be in only because she was black, everything else you just said is basically you saying that race doesn't matter which is pretty ****ing bad.

Yes, that's exactly what I said, as can plainly be seen from someone else deciding to not be presumptuous and ask me what I meant. oh wait...

Word to the wise you REALLY need to think about what you said about race because right now you look pretty silly.

I apologize if my feminist streak I showed before made you believe that I wasn't an idiot, but I'm glad that you know now before I had the chance to let your expectations down further.

And that's not even getting into the fact that you said identity politics are bad but this isn't a place for that so please let's not go there.

My mistake, thanks for refuting me and showing me the error of my ways at the same time as also not going there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, honestly, just look at Black Panther. THAT was hugely African-based, and immensively popular with Americans. So I don't neccesarily agree. However, both would be better. And whoa that MOTHER idea sounds great...! I wish it was real already.

 

[Zinith]

On account of that, America is really the best setting if you want something more relevant to them. Why not have a new installment to the Mother franchise that actually has black people? Earthbound is a touch whitewashed, and where it isn't it has East Asians. It's still a great game, but the would setting more than justify having the same racial demographic distribution as you see in America because, well, it is.

Might I add on this point about Mother? Those games weren't supposed to represent American culture effectively. They intentionally skewed the setting. It's more of a caricature of American culture in a way Japan saw it at the time.