Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Bradli Wartooth]

You can't "Chrom'd" someone like Bandana Waddle Dee. He's been reduced to a role of doing nothing more than throwing you healing items between levels. lmao.

Look, another ridiculous/inaccurate claim... I don't intend to reply to your comments further. They're dominantly overly aggressive and often carry little constructive value to conversations. If you disagree with my comments, research your reason why and give me a valid argument. Others were/are able to do that.

 

[Fenriraga]

A character having a canonically valuable relationship to the main character is not an argument. That's not a basis for including a character as a newcomer. Otherwise there are plenty of characters that aren't in that should be, most of which you would likely disregard.

So being the fourth main character of a series and having the closest relationship to the protagonist than any other character, a personality, significance and playability doesn't justify being an important enough character? Alright then.

Like I said in my post, I'm not even talking Smash here. I'm talking the Kirby series in general, which you choose to undermine him in.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

BWD has been a main character for quite a while now.

The biggest worry is that he hadn't established himself enough yet before the next Smash. At best, one could argue he didn't establish himself enough before development of this game started. But he's pretty much proven himself now. If he isn't in the base roster, he could become DLC, but I don't know if that'll have the same hype as someone like Ridley or another 3rd party could.

Only real reason I could see him not getting in related mainly to Sakurai. If he's of the belief that any more Kirby characters woudl be "too much", that kills his chances. Of course, his team could convince him otherwise, just like with Corrin, which feels like a reasonable chance to happen.

 

[Zerp]

Marx would be a random and confusing addition if Sakurai had no knowledge of his appearance in Star Allies.

The second one would make more sense, but only because he was an extra boss in Robobot. Even then, that was a minor role. Just like Marx, he didn't exactly have many recent appearances beforehand.

Spoiler: Moar Kirby Star Allies spoilers

They didn't directly, but the final boss of Return to Dreamland and the one ultimately in control of Magolor's Soul is the Master Crown, which happens to be related to Void Termina, and Magolor's first phase boss theme titled "Under My Control" is a remix of Dark Matter's theme, so it's not like they didn't foreshadow it or decided to just make up things as they went. I think that counts for something.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean, some people are so against something they refuse to believe it can happen. I'm in a kind of similar boat with Rex tbh because **** Xenoblade 2

 

[Fenriraga]

I mean, some people are so against something they refuse to believe it can happen. I'm in a kind of similar boat with Rex tbh because **** Xenoblade 2

Being heavily against a character is fine, if you don't like them or the game then that's just how it is, we all have our tastes. But when it comes to things like this, you need to look at things more objectively and not let your passion get in the way of logic.

I really dislike Fire Emblem Fates. A lot. Corrin included. The forcefeeding and oversaturation of Fates in games like Warriors and to a lesser extent Heroes has NOT helped that. I would really rather her/he not come back and make room for other FE characters. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the fact that both being a veteran and Fate's sales figures and popularity could very well mean they come back this game. I don't like it, but I can accept it and the logic behind it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Friendly reminder that Sonic single handedly saved the entire Nintendo Universe by clipping Tabuu's wings.

Sega won the console wars.

If only Sanic could save the 3D side of his franchise the same way

Ouch.

I don't even like Daisy that much, but... Ouch.

It’s just Daisy, no sympathy is needed for her

 

[RoysOurBoy]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

Mario

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

That's a difficult one. Inkling was a given already. That said, I'd say Bandanna Waddle Dee is up there. He's pretty believable as an addition, with only one thing hindering him(Sakurai's opinion).

 

[Pazzo.]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

Captain Toad.

-Mario series
-New game/mode in SM3DW
-Easy to imagine moveset

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Friendly reminder that cutting a character doesn’t arbitrarily make space for a different character from the same series.

You’re better off simply saying X character should be added, without saying somebody else needs to go. If your character can’t get in without removing another character, then maybe the character needs an extra “Umph”.

Characters don’t get added simply as a “rep”. Sure they represent things by default, but they typically bring something pretty great to Smash along with that representation. I myself happen to enjoy Corrin, for example, and don’t want to see her cut.

 

[Fenriraga]

The argument of Bandana Dee being "reduced to an item thrower" is made even more silly when you remember Meta Knight wasn't even in Triple Deluxe.
Technically Dedede wasn't even in Robobot outside of the intro and closing cinematic. Meanwhile Bandana Dee is in BOTH games with a more active role.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The argument of Bandana Dee being "reduced to an item thrower" is made even more silly when you remember Meta Knight wasn't even in Triple Deluxe.
Technically Dedede wasn't even in Robobot outside of the intro and closing cinematic. Meanwhile Bandana Dee is in BOTH games.

Hell, King Dedede was reduced to a vehicle in Kirby 64.

This seriously means nothing overall. Every character has lower roles once in a while. Even Mario becomes the damsel in distress in some games. Doesn't make them less of an important character.

 

[Garteam]

The character most likely to be Chrom'd (passed up for another character from their series) is Decidueye, solely due to the amount of competition for the next Pokemon rep (Lycanroc, Mimikyu, Eevee, and Incineroar, just to name some of the more popular ideas)

I think its Bandana Dee or bust in terms of a Kirby character. Regardless of what you think of his role in more recent Kirby games, he's the most reoccuring Kirby character that could realized in Smash that isn't already on the roster.

 

[CroonerMike]

Also I don't see Bandana Dee getting Chrom'd. Chrom had a single chance and he didn't make the cut. Bandana Dee may have gotten literally nothing last time but he still stayed relevant to the main games and stuff. If he won't be playable then for the love of god at least give my good boy SOMETHING

I have the greatest idea for Bandana Dee! Assist trophy!

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

I want elma badly but in terms of likeliness Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and Isabelle are above her, I'll be shocked if at least 1, if not 2 of those guys aren't in

 

[Nu~]

I actually think Bandana Dee throwing items to you in Robobot was a really cool throwback to Meta Knight’s “background assistance” in Kirby’s Adventure. He literally did the same thing, but with a more mysterious flair.

If anything, I think that tidbit helps Dee’s case lol.

 

[Garteam]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

I'd probably bet on Captain Toad. He's a popular character who has been pushed recently and he's not really competing with any other Mario characters for a potential spot.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'd probably bet on Captain Toad. He's a popular character who has been pushed recently and he's not really competing with any other Mario characters for a potential spot.

Did Paper Mario die?

 

[Cosmic77]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Literally just Inklings. I don't have enough faith in Captain Toad, Elma, Bandana Dee or any other character to say, "Oh yeah, there's absolutely no way they don't get included in Smash."

 

[Opossum]

Did Paper Mario die?

Depending on who you ask, yes. As far back as Sticker Star.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Depending on who you ask, yes. As far back as Sticker Star.

I really should've seen that coming....

lmao you aint wrong tho

 

[Pacack]

My advice:

1. If any Kong duo is happening, it will be Dixie + Kiddy. Dixie and Cranky are not as defined of a duo as Dixie + Diddy or even Dixie + Kiddy.

2. I would look into Sakurai's project planning in 2016 and consider removing choices like Funky Kong and Impa. I am assuming those additions were added because of the Switch ports, but I do not see Sakurai looking into games beyond 2018.

3. If Bomberman is the forefront choice for a Konami newcomer, then I would look into options like Simon Belmont and research Sakurai's personal history with Castlevania.

4. Consider your options with a Pokemon newcomer and look into this. Decidueye is not the only plausible choice out there.

That is my personal advice with your prediction rosters. Every other choice seems good.

I appreciate the critiques.

I actually added Dixie and Cranky due to the Wii U release of Tropical Freeze, not the port. In my mind, the duo makes more sense than Dixie + Kiddy because Cranky is the remaining playable character in Tropical Freeze. Kiddy hasn't made an appearance in a very long time, so I don't think he would be considered, especially when Cranky is fairly popular.

Impa was added due to the Wii U and 3DS releases of Hyrule Warriors and as a way to show off spears and two-handed swords in BotW, which is a game we know Sakurai pulled from given Link's tunic.

I only consider Funky as a last second clone ala Roy or Ganondorf in Melee. I imagine the majority of his animations to be slightly altered versions of Donkey Kong's. Unlike other newcomers, clones have been added after not being in the initial project plans. Funky could be one of these cases due to the ease of making him and the timing of Tropical Freeze's Switch port. That said, I can also see Impa or Octolings receiving the same clone treatment.

That's an extremely good point regarding Bomberman and Simon, but I've always seen a significant amount more support for Bomberman than for Simon, which I imagine would have been paralleled in the ballot. That said, I could easily see a situation where Simon makes base game and Bomberman is DLC.

My hesitation on adding Lycanroc comes primarily from my own difficulty imagining Sakurai choosing him over Decidueye, who I would argue has a more interesting move pool to draw from. We have yet to see an archer or a proper bird in Smash Bros, and I think Sakurai would be excited to have one. That said, I do see the points in favor of Lycanroc and Mimikyu, and I wouldn't be surprised to see either chosen before Decidueye. In fact, I'm probably going to alter my ratings on the likelihood of the Pokemon newcomers.

Could you counter these points for me? I want to understand your points more clearly.

 

[Zerp]

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

Isabelle, she's basically Nintendo's pet at this point lol.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

A Dixie and Cranky duo is one of the strangest idea I've heard in a while, there's not much reason for them to team up when they never did it in canon and they'd have different movesets anyway so there's not much reason to keep them from being separate characters

 

[Sage of Ice]

Alrighty here's a little game:

If you were put in charge of Smash 5 and was tasked to add 20 newcomers, who would you pick? You may replace any of these with cut veterans.

Spoiler: the more self-indulgent version

1. Krystal
   
2. Ridley
3. Wolf
4. Midna
5. Ghirahim
6. Tetra
   
7. Beast Ganon
8. Linkle
   
9. Lycanroc
10. Decidueye
    
11. Genesect
12. Medusa
13. Viridi
14. Phosphora
    
15. Pyrrhon
16. Porky
17. Giygas
    
18. Undyne
19. Amaterasu
20. Agumon

this one was tough, there's not even a whole lot of characters i strongly wanna see. realistically i wouldn't wanna be greedy with zelda and pokemon content but it's my list so i do what i want

Spoiler: the one where i aim for more general appeal

1. Krystal
2. Wolf
3. Dixie Kong
4. K. Rool
5. Ridley
6. Captain Toad
7. Daisy
8. Waluigi
9. new Fire Emblem protag
10. Lycanroc
11. Snake
12. Ice Climbers
13. Beast Ganon
    
14. Rex and Pyra
15. Geno
    
16. Spring Man
17. Bandana Dee
18. Chorus Kids
19. Takamaru
20. Isaac

 

[Fenriraga]

Depending on who you ask, yes. As far back as Sticker Star.

If you were to bet one million hypothetical dollars on one NEW character making the game, who would that character be? It may be an unpopular opinion but I think Elma is the most likely character to be included.

Side note: If Sakurai was aware of Rex and Pyra during development, I'd be willing to bet that both Elma and Rex/Pyra will make it. Even if not, they'd be DLC 100%.

...That's really tough. I mean that was absolutely the Inklings for me, but clearly that ship has sailed.

...I honestly don't know. We know so little about this game right now so there's no real way for me to say who.

 

[Cosmic77]

Impa was added due to the Wii U and 3DS releases of Hyrule Warriors and as a way to show off spears and two-handed swords in BotW, which is a game we know Sakurai pulled from given Link's tunic.

Sorry to randomly jump in, but that's the first time I've heard that argument. If that's your reasoning for adding Impa, wouldn't it make more sense to just add a character from BotW who uses a spear/two-handed weapon instead of a Hyrule Warriors character?

Just sounds overly complicated. "Let's represent the spears/two-handed weapons from BotW by adding a character with no relationship to the game."

 

[Luminario]

Considering that Decidueye isn’t nearly as popular in Japan as he is in America, I see absolutely no reason why he’d get in over the likes of Incineroar (who is extremely popular in Japan and the starter trio favorite) or Tapu Koko (flagship legendary for this gen)

Hang on, isn't Primarina the starter trio fave this time around? At least in Japan anyway. It was at 3rd in that poll when Incineroar was 10th or something. Not that it really makes a difference for Smash, as Primarina's probably got the lowest chance out of the 3.

Onto Bandana Dee, he could be Chrom'd. If Sakurai doesn't see Dee using a parasol along with the spear as a viable choice, then Dee's unique potential lowers quite a bit imo anyway. I gotta be honest, simply using a spear doesn't actually add anything mechanically new to the game, as he's still gonna be swinging it around like a sword most of the time just with more stabbing involved. His moveset writes itself but it's gotta be interesting too, there's no point in adding him just because he's there, so if it's just Dee and his spear and nothing else he could go the same way as Chrom. If the Parasol is viable though, his potential shoots up, cause that thing has so many little things it can do like twirling it forwards to stop approaches or just holding it up to block projectiles or floating down Peach Parasol style.

Is "Chrom'd" an apt word to use here though? It's kinda Dee or no one at this point.

 

[RoysOurBoy]

I want elma badly but in terms of likeliness Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee and Isabelle are above her, I'll be shocked if at least 1, if not 2 of those guys aren't in

I would be absolutely shocked if we didn't see a Xenoblade newcomer at this point. I don't believe in "reps" but with two new games and a remake since Smash 4's release, I don't see how Xenoblade doesn't see at least one newcomer. That's the only reason I'd put Elma or Rex/Pyra over Isabelle, Dixie, Bandana Dee, and Captain Toad.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Considering that Decidueye isn’t nearly as popular in Japan as he is in America, I see absolutely no reason why he’d get in over the likes of Incineroar (who is extremely popular in Japan and the starter trio favorite) or Tapu Koko (flagship legendary for this gen)

If decidueye is added it won't be because of popularity though, the pokemon character would've been picked in mid-2016, months before sun and moon even came out

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Is there any characters that you guys think might get Chrom’ed?

Decidueye. Everyone thinks the starter trio typing needs completetion on the Smash roster, and most people think he’s the only viable and logical choice for Pokémon. I’d say Lycanroc or Mimikyu would bring a lot more to the table in terms of a moveset. That’s just me though.

 

[Pacack]

A Dixie and Cranky duo is one of the strangest idea I've heard in a while, there's not much reason for them to team up when they never did it in canon and they'd have different movesets anyway so there's not much reason to keep them from being separate characters

The reason I being the concept up is because Dixie was considered previously in a team up mechanic, and if Sakurai wants to revisit that idea, adding her with the fourth member of Tropical Freeze's SK Crew makes sense.

That said, I am not confident in the idea. I just think it deserves discussion given the significant role pairing up has in the DKC games.

 

[Vickand]

Let's asume that there's a Subspace emissary mode, what characters would you like to see interacting? You can include possible or wanted newcomers.

Her'es what I want to see:
Kirby and Yoshi
Paper Mario and G&W
Mario and Sonic
Ike and Ganondorf
Bowser and Bandana Dee
Capt. Falcon and Fox/Falco
Dark Pit and Wario (And Waluigi if he gets in)
Inklings and Arms rep
DDD and K.Rool
D.K. and Little Mac
Rosalina and Palutena
Villager and Wario
Zelda/Sheik and Greninja
Ness/Lucas and Mewtwo
Lucas amd Charizard
Shulk and Rex/Pyra
Wii Fit trainer and DDD
Duck Hunt and Yoshi

 

[Fenriraga]

Hang on, isn't Primarina the starter trio fave this time around? At least in Japan anyway. It was at 3rd in that poll when Incineroar was 10th or something. Not that it really makes a difference for Smash, as Primarina's probably got the lowest chance out of the 3.

Onto Bandana Dee, he could be Chrom'd. If Sakurai doesn't see Dee using a parasol along with the spear as a viable choice, then Dee's unique potential lowers quite a bit imo anyway. I gotta be honest, simply using a spear doesn't actually add anything mechanically new to the game, as he's still gonna be swinging it around like a sword most of the time just with more stabbing involved. His moveset writes itself but it's gotta be interesting too, there's no point in adding him just because he's there, so if it's just Dee and his spear and nothing else he could go the same way as Chrom. If the Parasol is viable though, his potential shoots up, cause that thing has so many little things it can do like twirling it forwards to stop approaches or just holding it up to block projectiles or floating down Peach Parasol style.

Is "Chrom'd" an apt word to use here though? It's kinda Dee or no one at this point.

I don't think arguments like this are really fair to the characters, or Sakurai himself. Look at Ryu, for instance. Yeah, he's the face of fighting games, but looking at him on a surface level, what's really special about him that he could bring to Smash? Hand to Hand combat? That's plenty of characters. Firey Projectiles? Kicking? Uppercuts? Not really unique material. Captain Falcon fits the manly fighter bill just fine.

So what does Sakurai do? Adds a light medium heavy mechanic to his neutrals, implements actual Street Fighter commands, brings over the Focus Attack from 4, and making a lot of his combos from previous games work in Smash.

Same for Bandana Dee. Yeah, he can use a spear and a parasol and that's about it. But he could also use the beam rod from Waddle Doos. He could use more power up related weapons that Kirby doesn't already have in Smash, he already mastered two of them, what's to say he doesn't know how to use others? Liberties have been taken before for other characters like Ness, Lucas and Robin.

Of course I also can't say that logic will apply. But if anyone can make a character that seems boring interesting and fun, it's Sakurai.

 

[Hinata]

If decidueye is added it won't be because of popularity though, the pokemon character would've been picked in mid-2016, months before sun and moon even came out

Question for everyone here.

If The Pokemon Company pulled what they did with Smash 4 and gave Sakurai concept art for the 3 starters' final evolutions and told him to pick one to put in Smash 5, which Gen 7 starter do you think he'd pick, based purely on appearance and a few extra tiny details?

 

[Rockaphin]

Did Paper Mario die?

Well, it all started on 3DS when...

Depending on who you ask, yes. As far back as Sticker Star.

Spoiler

In all seriousness though. Paper Mario has the stars aligned for him this time around. There's heavy clues hinting that the roster was determined back when Paper Mario starred in two titles. We received a Paper Mario stage on the 3DS. And, the character has potential to introduce a few traits not seen in Smash yet.

I'm personally thinking Captain Toad is more likely, which is cool because Captain Toad is cool, but I think we'll see both characters as newcomers. Hopefully.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Question for everyone here.

If The Pokemon Company pulled what they did with Smash 4 and gave Sakurai concept art for the 3 starters' final evolutions and told him to pick one to put in Smash 5, which Gen 7 starter do you think he'd pick, based purely on appearance and a few extra tiny details?

In that scenario I feel like the different typing would definitely be an influencing factor, so decidueye, being a ghost type owl archer doesn't hurt either

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That's completely false. If anything, HAL has been giving Dee an increasing amount of importance, not a decreasing amount.

He has even been acknowledged by Nintendo as a "fan favourite legacy character".