Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

If decidueye is added it won't be because of popularity though, the pokemon character would've been picked in mid-2016, months before sun and moon even came out

This. People need to understand that popularity likely won't be a factor in choosing the next Pokemon rep. Just like with Greninja, it all depends on which Pokemon Game Freak wanted to push at the time and who they recommended to Sakurai.

Question for everyone here.

If The Pokemon Company pulled what they did with Smash 4 and gave Sakurai concept art for the 3 starters' final evolutions and told him to pick one to put in Smash 5, which Gen 7 starter do you think he'd pick, based purely on appearance and a few extra tiny details?

I don't think that's quite how Greninja was chosen, but to answer your question, probably Decidueye. He's nothing like the other Pokemon we have in Smash, and I'd be surprised if Sakurai chose either of the other two if the appearance was the only factor he considered.

That being said, I don't think it'll play out that way. I have a feeling we might not get a starter this time.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Let's asume that there's a Subspace emissary mode, what characters would you like to see interacting? You can include possible or wanted newcomers.

Her'es what I want to see:
Kirby and Yoshi
Paper Mario and G&W
Mario and Sonic
Ike and Ganondorf
Bowser and Bandana Dee
Capt. Falcon and Fox/Falco
Dark Pit and Wario (And Waluigi if he gets in)
Inklings and Arms rep
DDD and K.Rool
D.K. and Little Mac
Rosalina and Palutena
Villager and Wario
Zelda/Sheik and Greninja
Ness/Lucas and Mewtwo
Lucas amd Charizard
Shulk and Rex/Pyra
Wii Fit trainer and DDD
Duck Hunt and Yoshi

Looks like this assumes certain newcomers make it.

Pac-Man and Luigi: Ghost buster duo
Mario and Inklings: Sunshine references
Captain Falcon and Isabelle: She got in over him in Mario Kart 8
Captain Toad and Peach: FREE THE TOADS.
Bandana Dee and Captain Toad: Battle Butlers.
Dedede, K. Rool, Bowser, Zelda and Peach: Royal Rumble
Megaman, R.O.B. and Sonic: "Must resist urge to murder robots" -
Yoshi and Charizard: Final Smash Yoshi in particular; fire breathing dragons
Mewtwo and Ness/Lucas: Psychics
Wii Fit and Little Mac: Fitness Freaks
Little Mac and Falcon: Most destructive punch
Ganondorf and Villager: The greatest evil in the world...
Duck Hunt and Banjo Kazooie: Bird and Mammal team ups
Wario and Captain Toad: Treasure Rivals
Yoshi and Toad: Me.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If we're going appearance wise only?

None of the starters look like anything we have in Smash Brothers.

Unless I missed a giant red cat and a mermaid seal.

 

[Spazzy_D]

It's amazing just how much we've talked in circles about this game series since the end of Smash 4 DLC.

....3 more weeks.

 

[Pazzo.]

I'd like a little rivalry system period.

 

[Pacack]

Sorry to randomly jump in, but that's the first time I've heard that argument. If that's your reasoning for adding Impa, wouldn't it make more sense to just add a character from BotW who uses a spear/two-handed weapon instead of a Hyrule Warriors character?

Just sounds overly complicated. "Let's represent the spears/two-handed weapons from BotW by adding a character with no relationship to the game."

Sorry, I didn't communicate my point well.

Impa having a large sword and a spear is not merely a reference to BotW, as she also uses them in Hyrule Warriors. That said, the fact that she can use both weapons is significant when those weapon types are also the two in Breath of the Wild that aren't currently represented in Smash Bros.

It makes more sense to include Impa knowing that her preexisting kit lines up with the weapons in BotW than it does to include any BotW character with those weapons. No character except Link himself is also shown using both a spear and a two handed sword.

I hope that clears it up a bit. I'm saying that Impa would be chosen because of HW and her overall significance to the series, but would also represent certain aspects of BotW because of the weapons she uses.

And Sheikah like Impa are present in BotW despite Impa being old at the time the game takes place. It's easy to give certain parts of her moveset stuff from BotW to supplement because of that.

 

[GanondorfMuch?]

I feel like it is most likely going to be an entirely new entry into the franchise. The trailer did not feel reminiscent of smash 4 at all. It had almost this darker feeling like something is going to happen to smash. I hope because they are not revealing characters, they are putting money into cutscene for a new story mode like Brawl. Hopefully. But those are my wishes for the new smash game.

 

[Garteam]

Did Paper Mario die?

...I actually forgot about Paper Mario for a moment there.

Just cause the franchise is dead in my heart doesn't mean it's actually dead .

 

[Luminario]

But if anyone can make a character that seems boring interesting and fun, it's Sakurai.

He couldn't really do that with Chrom though

I'd love it if Dee brought in multiple other copy abilities with him, especially Beam cause it's one of my faves; but I was talking about the potential situation where Sakurai doesn't see Dee using anything other than a spear as viable, probably due to some reasoning that "it wasn't true to character" or some **** like that. In that specific situation Sakurai might not see enough to work with to make him truly shine. Ryu brought in the tap/hold button mechanic that makes him unique and fits from Street Fighter, but Dee doesn't really get anything like that, so if it's just him with a spear he might not get in on that.
I am here for Dee just bringing a plethora of copy abilities with him though. There are so many that fit into Smash it's a shame that the 3 character we have now use only the basic ones like hammer, sword, or fighter.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Maybe a Pokemon newcomer was added due to immediate popularity and we're going to get Rowlet. Fashionable bow tie owl has earned it.

 

[Vickand]

Looks like this assumes certain newcomers make it.

Pac-Man and Luigi: Ghost buster duo
Mario and Inklings: Sunshine references
Captain Falcon and Isabelle: She got in over him in Mario Kart 8
Captain Toad and Peach: FREE THE TOADS.
Bandana Dee and Captain Toad: Battle Butlers.
Dedede, K. Rool, Bowser, Zelda and Peach: Royal Rumble
Megaman, R.O.B. and Sonic: "Must resist urge to murder robots" -
Yoshi and Charizard: Final Smash Yoshi in particular; fire breathing dragons
Mewtwo and Ness/Lucas: Psychics
Wii Fit and Little Mac: Fitness Freaks
Little Mac and Falcon: Most destructive punch
Ganondorf and Villager: The greatest evil in the world...
Duck Hunt and Banjo Kazooie: Bird and Mammal team ups
Wario and Captain Toad: Treasure Rivals
Yoshi and Toad: Me.

Just imagine Villager stealing hte triforce form Ganondorf and putting it in his pocket while Ganondorf is scared of him

 

[Opossum]

Let's asume that there's a Subspace emissary mode, what characters would you like to see interacting? You can include possible or wanted newcomers.

Her'es what I want to see:
Kirby and Yoshi
Paper Mario and G&W
Mario and Sonic
Ike and Ganondorf
Bowser and Bandana Dee
Capt. Falcon and Fox/Falco
Dark Pit and Wario (And Waluigi if he gets in)
Inklings and Arms rep
DDD and K.Rool
D.K. and Little Mac
Rosalina and Palutena
Villager and Wario
Zelda/Sheik and Greninja
Ness/Lucas and Mewtwo
Lucas amd Charizard
Shulk and Rex/Pyra
Wii Fit trainer and DDD
Duck Hunt and Yoshi

Little Mac and Spring Man
Simon Belmont and Celica
Pac-Man and Mario
Marth and Lucina (though Fire Emblem Warriors already does a good job for this one)
Greninja and Decidueye
Pit and Waluigi.

 

[Wyoming]

Wolf, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link. Can only imagine what would be going through the former's head throughout that.
Falco and Sonic
Captain Falcon and Ganondorf (it must be done)
Wario, Luigi, and Bowser Jr. - we know each other but not really....how awkward
Dark Pit and Lucas
Ike, Snake, Samus, and Bayonetta in the most absurd level
Fox, Mario, DK, Kirby, Link
Bowser, Yoshi, and Meta Knight

Eh some of them are just random thoughts

 

[Fenriraga]

Looks like this assumes certain newcomers make it.

Pac-Man and Luigi: Ghost buster duo
Mario and Inklings: Sunshine references
Captain Falcon and Isabelle: She got in over him in Mario Kart 8
Captain Toad and Peach: FREE THE TOADS.
Bandana Dee and Captain Toad: Battle Butlers.
Dedede, K. Rool, Bowser, Zelda and Peach: Royal Rumble
Megaman, R.O.B. and Sonic: "Must resist urge to murder robots" -
Yoshi and Charizard: Final Smash Yoshi in particular; fire breathing dragons
Mewtwo and Ness/Lucas: Psychics
Wii Fit and Little Mac: Fitness Freaks
Little Mac and Falcon: Most destructive punch
Ganondorf and Villager: The greatest evil in the world...
Duck Hunt and Banjo Kazooie: Bird and Mammal team ups
Wario and Captain Toad: Treasure Rivals
Yoshi and Toad: Me.

Cloud, Shulk and Link
Geno and Mega Man
Robin and Villager
Lyn and Zelda (ESPECIALLY BOTW Zelda)
Kirby and Pac Man
Mario and Sonic

 

[Murlough]

If people want to see the top 10 most popular Gen 7 Pokemon in Japan for discussion's sake: https://imgur.com/a/zICcD

I don't know how to embed or whatever but if a mod wants to do it by all means.

Surprised that Primarina was the most popular final evolution from the starters. I am thoroughly pleased with Mimikyu's 2nd placing and Rowlet apparently is number 1. Honestly, thats pretty fair. Rowlet made me want to buy the game when I saw it for the first time. I still don't want it to be the "Gen 7 Rep," but....its so cute.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

As be usual, I am not expecting an F-Zero newcomer.

The series had been dead for a long time.

 

[ErenJager]

I think Decidueye is the Sceptile o

I have the greatest idea for Bandana Dee! Assist trophy!

Dee Army assist trophy

 

[Pacack]

Honestly, we may be sleeping on Rowlet. He's got practically everything Decidueye has except for the ghost type, and he has all the popularity and promotion of Lycanroc and Mimikyu.

It's something to consider.

 

[papagenos]

As be usual, I am not expecting an F-Zero newcomer.

The series had been dead for a long time.

Same, I recall the brawl speculation days when most prediction rosters were guessing they'd get a second rep.

 

[monadoboy]

If Sakurai was given an image for Sun/Moon starters, it was probably this:

Judging from it I'd say Incineroar, but idk.

 

[Wyoming]

As be usual, I am not expecting an F-Zero newcomer.

The series had been dead for a long time.

I have this gut feeling the joycons will inspire someone to make a new F-Zero. Hoping my gut stays strong as I still believed in a Star Fox Wii U game from day 1.

Gather around everyone - let's pray. Dear Lord. See us safely through our time of trial of waiting for another F-Zero. And please Lord... let the game be good.

 

[Curious Villager]

Honestly, we may be sleeping on Rowlet. He's got practically everything Decidueye has except for the ghost type, and he has all the popularity and promotion of Lycanroc and Mimikyu.

It's something to consider.

In before Rowlet makes it in with Decidueye being Chrom'd and becoming a part of it's Final Smash...

 

[ErenJager]

As be usual, I am not expecting an F-Zero newcomer.

The series had been dead for a long time.

But muh black shadow.

You're probably right.

I would like to see Blood Falcon and Dark Link get a more flushed out version of the Alph treatment.
They've been significant palate swaps since like Melee.
And by significant I mean slightly more cosmetic details then the average swaps.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In before Rowlet makes it in with Decidueye being Chrom'd and becoming a part of it's Final Smash...

I'll say this; that's more believable than Bandanna Waddle Dee being an Assist Trophy.

Though do we really need yet another clone of Zelda's Final Smash?

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

If people want to see the top 10 most popular Gen 7 Pokemon in Japan for discussion's sake: https://imgur.com/a/zICcD

I don't know how to embed or whatever but if a mod wants to do it by all means.

Surprised that Primarina was the most popular final evolution from the starters. I am thoroughly pleased with Mimikyu's 2nd placing and Rowlet apparently is number 1. Honestly, thats pretty fair. Rowlet made me want to buy the game when I saw it for the first time. I still don't want it to be the "Gen 7 Rep," but....its so cute.

While I love Rowlett, I really don't want him as the rep, because we lose the awesome ghost typing and the Archer aestethic. Just a bird isn't as exciting.

Also reminder that while Nintendo can't predict popularity, just like any marketing things are picked out to be promoted and popular. Good marketing has this down to a science. You can tell Mimikyu was meant to be a popular character, where Decideueye doesn't feel that way (Lycanroc and Rowlett do though).

 

[Chandeelure]

I know this is kind of late, but I am sorry, I thought getting Chrom'd was just being a popular or a "shoo-in" that ends not being playable.

If it actually means that a character from the same franchise "steals" the spot from a shoo-in, then I do not think Bandana Dee will get Chrom'd, but it is possible, I guess, everything is possible lol.

Today Source Gaming rated Magolor in RTC and they gave him a higher score than Bandana Dee. I know there are a lot of guys in Source Gaming, so the scores are not consistent, but it is still weird haha.

 

[ErenJager]

Decidueye. Everyone thinks the starter trio typing needs completetion on the Smash roster, and most people think he’s the only viable and logical choice for Pokémon. I’d say Lycanroc or Mimikyu would bring a lot more to the table in terms of a moveset. That’s just me though.

Deidueye is pretty much Smash 5's version of Smash 4's Sceptile, it's pretty much the same reasons "starter trio" "unrepresented generation".

I'd add Zeraora to the list of Lycanroc and Mimikyu for good measure.
To a lesser extent maybe even Incineroar and Buzzwole.

 

[papagenos]

I'll say this; that's more believable than Bandanna Waddle Dee being an Assist Trophy.

Though do we really need yet another clone of Zelda's Final Smash?

if they can just animate a new cut scene but have the final smash basically function the same way, i'd say thatd be a plus in the design teams eyes of being able to get a character finished.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

if they can just animate a new cut scene but have the final smash basically function the same way, i'd say thatd be a plus in the design teams eyes of being able to get a character finished.

I was more making a joke, but yeah, that'd be pretty easy to do.

One issue does exist though; Pokemon can't skip evolutionary levels. That's something specific to Digimon(and I'm sure other series have that). They can't "warp evolve" at all. It's not a thing. It might make more sense for it to call for help from a Decidueye instead. Not become one.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'll say this; that's more believable than Bandanna Waddle Dee being an Assist Trophy.

Though do we really need yet another clone of Zelda's Final Smash?

I was thinking more of Rowlet cutely trying to imitate the trainer's pose of Decidueye's Z-move and summon it to finish the job but I guess that works too if Sakurai isn't feeling like awkwardly animating a smol birb into trying to do such an pose...

 

[BluePikmin11]

I appreciate the critiques.

I actually added Dixie and Cranky due to the Wii U release of Tropical Freeze, not the port. In my mind, the duo makes more sense than Dixie + Kiddy because Cranky is the remaining playable character in Tropical Freeze. Kiddy hasn't made an appearance in a very long time, so I don't think he would be considered, especially when Cranky is fairly popular.

Eh, I do not think Dixie and Cranky would be jumbled together though. When it came to Tropical Freeze marketing in 2014, they were advertised separately and not mainly together. I feel Dixie and Kiddy would make more sense as a duo because of how contrasting they would be. Just a brief idea, but I would imagine Dixie would have a strong air with a weakness of being lightweight. Kiddy would be heavy and powerful, but having a weak air game and being a fastfaller. That would create a more distinct play-style than Dixie and Cranky together.

Impa was added due to the Wii U and 3DS releases of Hyrule Warriors and as a way to show off spears and two-handed swords in BotW, which is a game we know Sakurai pulled from given Link's tunic.

I cannot see a spinoff being a big influence to a character's inclusion. If anything, important appearances in new mainline Zelda titles would factor to her inclusion more. Old Impa's role in BOTW is not that significant.

I only consider Funky as a last second clone ala Roy or Ganondorf in Melee. I imagine the majority of his animations to be slightly altered versions of Donkey Kong's. Unlike other newcomers, clones have been added after not being in the initial project plans. Funky could be one of these cases due to the ease of making him and the timing of Tropical Freeze's Switch port. That said, I can also see Impa or Octolings receiving the same clone treatment.

I cannot see Funky being added late in development. Sakurai only added clones in Smash 4 with alternate costume to character situations last game, and I cannot imagine Funky starting out as an alternate costume. It is more likely that potential newcomer clones that get added in Smash Switch will be planned from the start rather than adding during mid-development.

That's an extremely good point regarding Bomberman and Simon, but I've always seen a significant amount more support for Bomberman than for Simon, which I imagine would have been paralleled in the ballot. That said, I could easily see a situation where Simon makes base game and Bomberman is DLC.

Even with Sakurai's personal history of Castlevania being more significant than Bomberman? I am not so sure on that. I think Simon having a high amount of support would be sufficable for Sakurai to take the opportunity negotiate Simon first over Bomberman.

My hesitation on adding Lycanroc comes primarily from my own difficulty imagining Sakurai choosing him over Decidueye, who I would argue has a more interesting move pool to draw from. We have yet to see an archer or a proper bird in Smash Bros, and I think Sakurai would be excited to have one. That said, I do see the points in favor of Lycanroc and Mimikyu, and I wouldn't be surprised to see either chosen before Decidueye. In fact, I'm probably going to alter my ratings on the likelihood of the Pokemon newcomers.

I definitely thought so about Decidueye previously, until I researched the Pokemon criteria Sakurai gave way back in Smash 4. It is important that a newcomer has a combination of benefits such as being marketed heavily in other media, anime significance, having unique potential, and being a Pokemon TPC will push in the future. Decidueye has uniqueness, but nothing beyond that to help his favor, even if Decidueye would perfectly fill in a distinct character archetype for the roster.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I know this is kind of late, but I am sorry, I thought getting Chrom'd was just being a popular or a "shoo-in" that ends not being playable.

If it actually means that a character from the same franchise "steals" the spot from a shoo-in, then I do not think Bandana Dee will get Chrom'd, but it is possible, I guess, everything is possible lol.

Today Source Gaming rated Magolor in RTC and they gave him a higher score than Bandana Dee. I know there are a lot of guys in Source Gaming, so the scores are not consistent, but it is still weird haha.

I was confused by that too lol. I know they say it right in the beginning of the video that it doesn't reflect the views of all of them but it's pretty jarring all the same.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I know this is kind of late, but I am sorry, I thought getting Chrom'd was just being a popular or a "shoo-in" that ends not being playable.

If it actually means that a character from the same franchise "steals" the spot from a shoo-in, then I do not think Bandana Dee will get Chrom'd, but it is possible, I guess, everything is possible lol.

Today Source Gaming rated Magolor in RTC and they gave him a higher score than Bandana Dee. I know there are a lot of guys in Source Gaming, so the scores are not consistent, but it is still weird haha.

Nantenjex has been giving a lot of characters unusually high scores, while at the same time giving Pauline a 1%, I don't get.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Today Source Gaming rated Magolor in RTC and they gave him a higher score than Bandana Dee. I know there are a lot of guys in Source Gaming, so the scores are not consistent, but it is still weird haha.

It’s the things like this that make me stop taking Rate That Character serious.

 

[Murlough]

Nantenjex has been giving a lot of characters unusually high scores, while at the same time giving Pauline a 1%, I don't get.

Can I ask why people want Pauline? I finished Odyssey myself and she never really does anything. I'm not trying to be a hater but Pauline's done even less than Daisy and many people here think Daisy might as well not exist. Is it just because Pauline was the chick in the original Donkey Kong game? What would she do in Smash?

EDIT: Not saying she doesn't "deserve" a spot by any means. I just have no clue why she has such a large fanbase for the little I've seen her do.

 

[Zinith]

*Someone mentions a random Pokemon*

Three days later: "Where is all this support for [insert Pokemon] coming from?"

 

[MopedOfJustice]

*Someone mentions a random Pokemon*

Three days later: "Where is all this support for [insert Pokemon] coming from?"

So what you're saying is I can psyops a fanbase for Smeargle into existence?

 

[Zerp]

*Someone mentions a random Pokemon*

Three days later: "Where is all this support for [insert Pokemon] coming from?"

Let's test if it works...


Jirachi

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Can I ask why people want Pauline? I finished Odyssey myself and she never really does anything. I'm not trying to be a hater but Pauline's done even less than Daisy and many people here think Daisy might as well not exist. Is it just because Pauline was the chick in the original Donkey Kong game? What would she do in Smash?

EDIT: Not saying she doesn't "deserve" a spot by any means. I just have no clue why she has such a large fanbase for the little I've seen her do.

Fr, she's a minor character in one stage of the game, and it's not like she particularly stands out when it comes to moveset potential either

It’s the things like this that make me stop taking Rate That Character serious.

They gave Rayman a 25%, for comparison Shovel Knight and shantae both got 35% smdh

Nantenjex has been giving a lot of characters unusually high scores, while at the same time giving Pauline a 1%, I don't get.

Because Pauline deserves a 1%...

 

[Murlough]

Let's test if it works...


Jirachi

Jirachi is easily one of the greatest Legendaries (or Mythics I don't know) of all time. If they want to skip Gen 7 and make Jirachi a playable character I wouldn't even be salty.