Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Radical Bones]

I can't decide which Mario newcomer I want more betweemn Captain Toad and Paper Mario.

Can I have both please Sakurai? And feel free to put Waluigi in while you're at it.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I don't support Sora and don't care for Kingdom Hearts, but honestly, how can one suggest that he's "the most ridiculous" third party suggestion? He's not even a ridiculous suggestion, let alone the most ridiculous. The game series is huge. How ridiculous do you have to be to let yourself post that? That might be the largest exaggeration I've read on this thread in a long time.

I don't want Sora in Smash simply because I hate him and the Kingdom Hearts series.

That said, if he does get in I'm not gonna be angry. If you're the kind who gets ridiculously angry over Smash rosters... you're prioritizing wrong.

Take notes everyone. This is how you disagree with someone humbly.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Unless it was a sequel and Morgana comes back as well?

I don't see a direct sequel happening tbh, and I also don't think a main character will be recurring within the next generation of the franchise. I'm not suuuuper knowledgeable about Persona pre-P5 though. What I do see happening is Atlus continuing to milk the living hell out of Persona 5 for quite a few years, probably even some after P6 happens. We still see some new P4 stuff, after all.

One thing P5 does have going for it in the potential longevity department is that it seems the West was much more interested in this game than previous ones, and its growing quite a bit.

At the end of the day, we still need a few things to happen:
A) Atlus and Nintendo to agree on putting a character in Smash
B) Sakurai/Atlus/whoever would be making the final decision to find Joker to be the best fit

Feels pretty unlikely, but likely enough to give me hope. Of course I'm not keeping my hopes high at all, but I can dream. And while she was voted in, Bayonetta is proof that dreams do come true in Smash (for some people...)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I wouldn't be surprised if Spring Man and Rex ends up as DLC. They could still make it to the base roster, but who knows if that will happen.

Also, I still feel Sora could end up a licensing nightmare because he's owned by Disney and for that reason I'd be pretty surprised if he was playable.

 

[ErenJager]

I like Sora, I like Kingdom Hearts.

I'm not sure that i'm prepared to want Disney to have some sort of stake in smash bros.

For that reason, i'm out.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Im not sure how much a series really needs to prove itself. Fire Emblem never left Japan when it was added and Xenoblade didn't sell that great when it was added either. I don't think the sales matter all that much. I figure the fact that they have stretchy arms would be enough to justify them. Plus its coming from Nintendo's internal teams.

I was talking to some of the other guys on Twitter, Anvil and Cartboy, and they were saying the same thing. Though, in fairness, I can't say this applies to the whole of SG.

Anvil isn't part of SG at the moment, but point taken. As far NantenJex goes, I love the guy, but he gave Arle Nadja a 70% in our RTC videos. He definitely doesn't speak for most of us, haha.

We have a top 16 most likely newcomers list we are keeping. I should show you the list sometime, as it varies wildelt between staff members.

 

[Blargg888]

I can't decide which Mario newcomer I want more betweemn Captain Toad and Paper Mario.

Can I have both please Sakurai? And feel free to put Waluigi in while you're at it.

Sakurai: Paper Captain Waluigi will join the battle as a new fighter! One of his alternate skins will be Metal Dr. WaGeno!

I don't see a direct sequel happening tbh, and I also don't think a main character will be recurring within the next generation of the franchise. I'm not suuuuper knowledgeable about Persona pre-P5 though. What I do see happening is Atlus continuing to milk the living hell out of Persona 5 for quite a few years, probably even some after P6 happens. We still see some new P4 stuff, after all.

One thing P5 does have going for it in the potential longevity department is that it seems the West was much more interested in this game than previous ones, and its growing quite a bit.

At the end of the day, we still need a few things to happen:
A) Atlus and Nintendo to agree on putting a character in Smash
B) Sakurai/Atlus/whoever would be making the final decision to find Joker to be the best fit

Feels pretty unlikely, but likely enough to give me hope. Of course I'm not keeping my hopes high at all, but I can dream. And while she was voted in, Bayonetta is proof that dreams do come true in Smash (for some people...)

The only chance Joker really has of returning in the next generation of Persona is likely in a hypothetical Persona 6 Spinoff.

Of course, it took us nearly a decade to go from Persona 4 to Persona 5 (8-9 years, I think). So I doubt we'll be seeing Persona 6 for a while, unless the Persona 5 spinoffs all come in rapid succession, in which case, the wait may not be as long. (But probably still long).

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I wouldn't be surprised if Spring Man and Rex ends up as DLC. They could still make it to the base roster, but who knows if that will happen.

Also, I still feel Sora could end up a licensing nightmare because he's owned by Disney and for that reason I'd be pretty surprised if he was playable.

With Rex, because Xenoblade Chronicles 2 was in development for so long, Sakurai loves the franchise, and especially 2, I think he could make the base roster.

However, with ARMS, just because it’s a new IP, Spring Man might come as DLC later. I feel like it’d be viewed a little differently to gauge how well it did. That being said, he could get in for promotional purposes. Personally, I think he’ll make the base roster.

With Sora, yeah, I agree. He’d probably be hell trying to get in the game, but it’s still possible.

I like Sora, I like Kingdom Hearts.

I'm not sure that i'm prepared to want Disney to have some sort of stake in smash bros.

For that reason, i'm out.

That’s fair.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

The only chance Joker really has of returning in the next generation of Persona is likely in a hypothetical Persona 6 Spinoff.

Of course, it took us nearly a decade to go from Person 4 to Persona 5 (8-9 years, I think). So I doubt we'll be seeing Persona 6 for a while, unless the Persona 5 spinoffs all come in rapid succession, in which case, the wait may not be as long. (But probably still long).

Yeah, that's why I think Joker would have a legitimate shot at being a Megami Tensei character in Smash. There are already 2 P5 spinoff titles coming soon (PDSN, Persona Q2), and I would believe P6 is still ~7 years off. Persona 5 was a major hit for Atlus and I cannot imagine them trying to ride it out for a shorter period of time than Persona 4. That's not to say Persona 4 or any other Persona was worse than 5 as games, but P5 has shipped a couple million more copies than any previous Persona title.

Now all that being said, if Atlus is granted a character, they could opt to not pick Joker because he won't be around forever, even if he's around for a long time. That's why I think Jack Frost could wind up being the character. He's not limited to Persona, or even just one game. He has been in all the past games, and will be in all the games going forward. Joker will not be in Persona games other than spinoffs beyond being an easter egg or character costume.

 

[Pazzo.]

I forgot Miitopia existed...

One thing I need to drive into my head is Sakurai =/= Nintendo.

Miis are probably a fair return, and I'll take them gladly.

I like Sora, I like Kingdom Hearts.

I'm not sure that i'm prepared to want Disney to have some sort of stake in smash bros.

For that reason, i'm out.

Even with my personal distaste of Disney corp., Sora seems like a reach just a little. Less than Cloud, but we're talking about THE Mouse House. They'd want 90% of sales if he was in base game or something absurd.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Im not sure how much a series really needs to prove itself. Fire Emblem never left Japan when it was added and Xenoblade didn't sell that great when it was added either. I don't think the sales matter all that much. I figure the fact that they have stretchy arms would be enough to justify them. Plus its coming from Nintendo's internal teams.

I am unsure if gameplay potential alone would get Spring Man in. Xenoblade debuted before Smash 4 project planning began. Fire Emblem debuted before Melee project planning began. ARMS would debut in the middle of Smash Switch's development, which makes adding a character from that IP somewhat risky in terms of development. Assurance like sales would help make his addition feel less risky, assuming Sakurai allows creation of unique newcomers in the middle of development.

 

[Blargg888]

Yeah, that's why I think Joker would have a legitimate shot at being a Megami Tensei character in Smash. There are already 2 P5 spinoff titles coming soon (PDSN, Persona Q2), and I would believe P6 is still ~7 years off. Persona 5 was a major hit for Atlus and I cannot imagine them trying to ride it out for a shorter period of time than Persona 4. That's not to say Persona 4 or any other Persona was worse than 5 as games, but P5 has shipped a couple million more copies than any previous Persona title.

To be fair though, we technically still don't have an end to Persona 4's run. If you choose to count the characters' appearance in BBCTB, that is. That's not even mentioning the potential appearance of P4 characters in Q2 or a potential Arena game.
The original Persona 4 was released on July 10th, 2008, which means we're approaching P4's 10th anniversary. Atlus might do something for that as well.

If P5 rides the wave longer than P4 did, we might be looking at 10+ years of P5 content, and we're already getting spinoffs that it took P4 years to obtain itself. I don't doubt that they could create enough game/other ideas to last 10+ years, but on a personal level, I really don't want to have to wait until I'm 30 to play a potential Persona 6.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Mii Fighters were an alright concept but handled poorly. Like Palutena, they pretty much got screwed over in the competitive scene, arguably moreso than Palutena. I understand they were designed as the epitome of Smash 4''s customizaton, but when a feature as a whole is poorly executed, chances are a subsidiary of that feature will be too.

For this reason, I either want the Mii Fighters cut or gone through a massive overhaul (perhaps take some inspiration from Miitopia?). They're probably the first characters in the series I actively want gone honestly.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

To be fair though, we technically still don't have an end to Persona 4's run. If you choose to count the characters' appearance in BBCTB, that is. That's not even mentioning the potential appearance of P4 characters in Q2 or a potential Arena game.
The original Persona 4 was released on July 10th, 2008, which means we're approaching P4's 10th anniversary. Atlus might do something for that as well.

If P5 rides the wave longer than P4 did, we might be looking at 10+ years of P5 content, and we're already getting spinoffs that it took P4 years to obtain itself. I don't doubt that they could create enough game/other ideas to last 10+ years, but on a personal level, I really don't want to have to wait until I'm 30 to play a potential Persona 6.

Yeah I'm with you on not wanting to wait another ~10 years for another mainline Persona. That being said, the P5 characters and story aren't something I want to end sometime soon either. I do hope they ride out P5 into P6's first few years. Also, Atlus has teased that there is another P4 entry of some kind to be announced soon, so I do believe they're doing something for the 10th anniversary.

What an odd franchise Megami Tensei is, really. Even well after the following entry was released, they never stopped working on entries for the previous title. I don't know how a company like Atlus has the resources to be doing this. I certainly don't mind, though.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Mii Fighters were an alright concept but handled poorly. Like Palutena, they pretty much got screwed over in the competitive scene, arguably moreso than Palutena. I understand they were designed as the epitome of Smash 4''s customizaton, but when a feature as a whole is poorly executed, chances are a subsidiary of that feature will be too.

For this reason, I either want the Mii Fighters cut or gone through a massive overhaul (perhaps take some inspiration from Miitopia?). They're probably the first characters in the series I actively want gone honestly.

I think an overhaul, even a slight one, based off some of the things from Miitopia wouldn’t be too difficult to implement.

Not too much of a stretch, I think!

 

[SmashChu]

Anvil isn't part of SG at the moment, but point taken. As far NantenJex goes, I love the guy, but he gave Arle Nadja a 70% in our RTC videos. He definitely doesn't speak for most of us, haha.

We have a top 16 most likely newcomers list we are keeping. I should show you the list sometime, as it varies wildelt between staff members.

Yeah, it just seems like all the SG guys I was talking to thought that way, but yeah, can't say I spoke to everyone. Good to here there is some variety in the suggestions.

And I still need to do that 16 Newcomer thing on Twitter.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Yeah, it just seems like all the SG guys I was talking to thought that way, but yeah, can't say I spoke to everyone. Good to here there is some variety in the suggestions.

And I still need to do that 16 Newcomer thing on Twitter.

16 newcomers thing? Sounds intriguing. What’s that?

 

[One winged Devil]

Gotach.

 

[Zinith]

I hope they remove Bayonetta because I just don't like her.

I hope they remove Bayonetta even though I DO like her...

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I hope they remove Bayonetta because I just don't like her.

I hope they remove Bayonetta even though I DO like her...

I hope they keep Bayonetta because I love her.

 

[Nu~]

I hope Bayonetta gets gutted

 

[Megadoomer]

I hope they remove Bayonetta because I just don't like her.

Even if you don't like her, a lot of people clearly do, seeing as she got a lot of votes in the Smash Ballot from several continents.

 

[Murlough]

I thought everyone was joking about Bayonetta. She's Nintendo now so don't get your hopes up.

At the very least she can be a fun OP character to watch as opposed to pre-patch Diddy or *shivers* Cloud.

I just want a slight rework for her to make her not so overloaded compared to the rest of the cast.

And then GUT the glowing anime swordsman.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Bayonetta is here to stay. I also like her a lot. It helps one of the people I know online is pretty much her. She was ecstatic to learn Bayo got in Smash.

She's very fun to play as, and it fits my gameplay style more for combo characters. I don't have the ability to consistently do combo moves in something like Soul Calibur, but more simplistic ones like Bayonetta's controls fits how I like to play.

 

[Nu~]

I have no interest in chasing that witch around the screen all match just to jab and die at 30 cause I got witch time’d. I’m gud lmao

I think she could be really fun with changes like those recommended by Dabuz in this vid. But as of now? Hell nah

 

[Pakky]

I too am a huge Bayonetta fan, and I think she's super unique, can't wait for Bayo 3.

 

[SmashChu]

16 newcomers thing? Sounds intriguing. What’s that?

Its a contest on SG's twitter. Just post 16 newcomers and see who gets the closest. For fun, here's mine

1. Spring Man
2. Isabelle
3. Rex & Pyra
4. Decidueye
5. Takamaru
6. Mipha
7. Captain Toad
8. Ridley
9. Slippy
10. Eevee
11. Chrous Men
12. Henry Fleming (Codename STEAM)
13. Ribbon Girl
14. Urbosa
15. Bomberman
16. Olberic (Octopath Traveler)

Did forget Sherrif but whatever

 

[Zerp]

I think Bayonetta, and really all the other veterans should stay, they have their fans and mains. She definitely could use nerfs though, she isn't anywhere close to being Brawl Meta Knight 2.0 or anything (Doubles Cloud on the other hand, lol) but her current strength is absolutely not healthy for the game unless every other character was brought up to her level, which isn't ever going to happen.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I thought everyone was joking about Bayonetta. She's Nintendo now so don't get your hopes up.

At the very least she can be a fun OP character to watch as opposed to pre-patch Diddy or *shivers* Cloud.

I just want a slight rework for her to make her not so overloaded compared to the rest of the cast.

And then GUT the glowing anime swordsman.

May I ask why you don’t like Cloud? Is it personal? Genuinely curious.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Alrighty here's a little game:

If you were put in charge of Smash 5 and was tasked to add 20 newcomers, who would you pick? You may replace any of these with cut veterans.
Imma go first:

1. Toad
2. Paper Mario
3. King K. Rool
4. Dixie Kong
5. Midna
6. any of the four Champions
7. Ridley
8. Kamek
9. Bandanna Waddle Dee
10. Marx
11. Wolf
12. Pichu
13. Squirtle or Ivysaur
14. Ice Climbers
15. Captain Syrup
16. Viridi
17. Snake
18. Shantae
19. Sash Lilac
20. Agnes Oblige

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even if you don't like her, a lot of people clearly do, seeing as she got a lot of votes in the Smash Ballot from several continents.

I don't like Bayonetta either, but even I have to admit that she's likely to stick around.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

At the very least she can be a fun OP character to watch as opposed to pre-patch Diddy or *shivers* Cloud.

Witch Time was fun. Her killing off the top feels worse than when Brawl MK does it. It's like you're playing Street Fighter 1 and your opponent is playing UMvC3.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

As an ARMs supporter I need to go back to someone likening the series inclusion in Smash to what happened with Inklings. The biggest thing to think about is Splatoon released roughly 8 months after Smash did. Arms will have been released over a year before Smash will.

A lot of people also point to Sakurai's comment about thinking about putting Olimar in Smash. Pikmin released a month before smash. A month.

These situations aren't a like at all and ARMS is in a newer situation than those other games. No one was going into Melee or Smash 4 hoping Pikmin or Splatoon would be in, meanwhile people are going into Smash Switch expecting Spring Man. Not saying any of this 100% confirms him, it's just that it is a new situation and isn't comparable to the arguements normally brought up.

 

[One winged Devil]

I actually don't want Bayonetta to be removed, I just wanted to see how you guys would react.

We shouldn't want characters to be removed just because we don't need see them or else I would ask for the removel of Dark Pit and Duck Hunt.

I think it would be better to talk about how they can be improved.

 

[Onua]

Id love to see Medusa make it in even if shes just a semi clone or clone of palutena

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I can't decide which Mario newcomer I want more betweemn Captain Toad and Paper Mario.

Can I have both please Sakurai? And feel free to put Waluigi in while you're at it.

Both would be amazing and sexy

I hope they remove Bayonetta even though I DO like her...

Bayo will never leave...though she needs to get nerfed

 

[Murlough]

May I ask why you don’t like Cloud? Is it personal? Genuinely curious.

I loved Cloud and his reveal for Smash. I loved Bayo's too and actually voted for her.

But Cloud is just such a huge thorn in my side as a competitive player. So many friends of mine dropped their characters like Wario and Charizard, who are so interesting to me, for Cloud because he is superior in every way, is the safest character in the game, has one of the best kill moves in the game that he can charge for multiple times in a match. His Upair is known for being such a difficult hitbox to get around. He's frustrating to fight, easy to pick up, and is stupidly good. There is no reason to not be a Cloud player in Smash 4.

I hate what he's done. Even in doubles Double Cloud is considered the best team easily and it just sucks. I don't hate Cloud the character. His moveset in Smash 4 is just a huge thorn in my side and it kinda breaks my heart to see half the people at my locals drop their more interesting characters they spent years on for him because he's just better at everything.

Witch Time was fun. Her killing off the top feels worse than when Brawl MK does it. It's like you're playing Street Fighter 1 and your opponent is playing UMvC3.

It sucks, I agree. But there is counter-play to it even if that counter-play is kind of a meme.

Getting witch-timed feels 1000x worse for me. Once again, its my fault for being witch-timed but it doesnt make it any less frustrating when I die at 40%. But yeah I wasn't saying she's fun to play against. She is hella fun to watch though. Salem beating ZeRo at EVO was one of the most iconic sets of Smash 4 easily.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Alrighty here's a little game:

If you were put in charge of Smash 5 and was tasked to add 20 newcomers, who would you pick? You may replace any of these with cut veterans.
Imma go first:

1. Brian(Quest 64)
2. Wolf
3. Ice Climbers
4. Rabbids
5. Ridley
6. Takamaru
7. Mimikyu
8. Pichu
9. Snake
10. Medusa
11. Fulgore
12. Tingle
13. Moblin Ganon
14. Impa
15. Paper Mario
16. Waluigi
17. Toad
18. Slime(Dragon Quest)
19. Samurai Goroh
20. Isaac

I think I named them all... though this isn't in a very specific order. While still following my general rules. King K. Rool and Dixie would be an easy 21st and 22nd choice. Oh, and Shovel Knight. And Simon Belmont. And King Hippo.

Some scragglers that'd be cool, but not on my major list are Steve?, Scorpion, and Master Chief.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Alrighty here's a little game:

If you were put in charge of Smash 5 and was tasked to add 20 newcomers, who would you pick? You may replace any of these with cut veterans.
Imma go first:

1. Toad
2. Paper Mario
3. King K. Rool
4. Dixie Kong
5. Midna
6. any of the four Champions
7. Ridley
8. Kamek
9. Bandanna Waddle Dee
10. Marx
11. Wolf
12. Pichu
13. Squirtle or Ivysaur
14. Ice Climbers
15. Captain Syrup
16. Viridi
17. Snake
18. Shantae
19. Sash Lilac
20. Agnes Oblige

1. Isabelle
2. Mimikyu
3. Mipha
4. Daruk
5. Urbosa
6. Revali
7. Paper Mario
8. Hades (Kid Icarus)
9. Lycanroc (Dusk Form)
10. Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
11. Ice Climbers
12. Celica
13. Rhythm Heaven Girl (Tap Trial Girl)
14. Marx
15. Min Min
16. Cranky Kong
17. Agnes (Bravely Default)
18. Arcade Bunny (Nintendo Badge Arcade)
19. Monster Hunter
20. Bandana Dee

Thank God I’m not in charge because these are some bias picks.

 

[SuperMasterHand]

I was wondering
I do really support Ridley and still hope he'll be playable ...
But E3 could also be the downfall for Ridley supporters as he could just be disconfirmed right in the direct with a showcase of a BossRush or Adventure Mode with bosses

At least a Ridley Boss, after a Metroid level like Melee adventure mode, would be way better than Ridley hazard on Pyrosphere