Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

I know next to nothing about Castlevania, but from what you said, it sounds like he can be a slow but light character, with some projectiles and some hard-to-hit but powerful moves. So... maybe a little like Zelda with a whip?

 

[Deleted member]

25 days until E3!!!!
Also...
It is hard to say if Castlevania is likely, as it is third party. It would make a good retro surprise character, and it is popular, but it is fairly hard to see why it's chances are higher than most third parties.

 

[osby]

It isn't actually.

This is kinda tangentinal but... Actually it's weird, people are talking about the importance of Dragon Quest or Monster Hunter etc. but you don't actually see a lot of people requesting main characters of these. If you don't count Snake, guest fighters come to the game mainly because people were requesting them.

So, regardless of how important Castlevania for Nintendo, I don't see it happening. I've never seen any big "put Mega Man into the game" kinda push with him, which even Pac-Man and Bayonetta kinda had.

 

[T-Hell]

Question: how many times a day do specifically check the internet for any sort of Smash news and, before doing so, hope that theirs something there?

2 or 3, only to inmediatelly close it because people are discussing about Xeno2 and pokemon for the 457th time xD

 

[True Blue Warrior]

They already did this with Roy in Melee...

A last-minute clone that wasn't part of the Melee project plan and who was only considered because Sakurai had extra time is not exactly a valid comparison to adding in a non-clone character.

Care to explain why? Not saying there’s no way there would be cuts, but i’m curious as to what your reasoning is.

I’m basing it on the quick turnaround and timeline of development myself.

Spoiler: Long explanation of my views

Well for one, Sakurai has stated that a character addition is not just an addition but a multiplication in terms of development. This makes sense as it's not just implementing a fighter that is important (and we all know that obviously wouldn't be easy) but also balancing that fighter against every other characters, taking into account the different ways people play Smash (1 vs 1, team battle, items vs no items, etc.).

And that's assuming that we:

A) get a few newcomers.
B)All the veterans will just be straight-up ported.

These are assumptions that I really doubt. For the first part, I really doubt Sakurai would settle for few newcomer characters for a Smash sequel, especially since newcomers are a selling point for Smash (and whilst I don't have empirical evidence to support my point, I strongly believe more people would be upset and let down by a low number of newcomers compared to other Smash games than the idea of not every single Smash 4 veteran returning). Melee had 14, Brawl had 18 and Smash 4 had 17, so somewhere around 15 seems more reasonable for this game.

The second part is something I really doubt since veterans weren't just straight-up ported from Melee to Brawl or from Brawl to Smash 4 so I doubt that will be the case for Smash Switch, particularly since Smash Switch will most likely have mechanical differences from Smash 4, just like all the other Smash games, so the veterans will still need to be balanced. There is also a decent likelihood that models and animations will be updated for the veterans, which is something that needs to be taken into account.

Adding in and rebalancing all 58 characters for a new game would already be hard. Adding in loads of newcomers (which is more likely than not for reasons I have stated) on top of that would be a multiplication in terms of that difficulty. And that's assuming veterans won't have their models and animations updated, or that some won't be low-priority.

Ike was included in Brawl because he was the primary protagonist of Path of Radiance and the primary protagonist of the second half of Radiant Dawn.

Notably, it is Micaiah - not Ike - who is the protagonist for the first half of the latter game. She's also the character on Radiant Dawn's boxart, but it was Ike who was chosen instead.

This indicates that Ike was chosen mainly because of his role in Path of Radiance rather than Radiant Dawn. The latter was released in early 2007, while Brawl was released in 2008. It's entirely possible that Radiant Dawn wasn't even considered when the roster was finalized.

Well, Brawl Ike is based off his design from Path of Radiance, a game that wasn't even the most recent one by the time Brawl was meant to be released, just the most recent one by the time development for Brawl started in 2005.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I know next to nothing about Castlevania, but from what you said, it sounds like he can be a slow but light character, with some projectiles and some hard-to-hit but powerful moves. So... maybe a little like Zelda with a whip?

Basically Simon (and his Grandfather Trevor) had long reach attacks with the whip but it had wind-up; his jumps were relativity high but had fixed arcs; and the main source of the difficulty, you know how Mega Man would stumble backwards when hit? Well Simon blasts off like Team Rocket, usually down a botomless pit.

Sub Weapons could be used to attack from different angles at the cost of hearts (ammo, not health)

 

[BossPackunFlower]

I think Simon Belmont would be a great choice because of the whip. Whips are so satisfying to use in videogames! As of Ridey, I think he will not work in Smash at all. He would be horribly unbalanced or unfaithful to his character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

While extremely late to the Rex vs. Elma discussion, I did want to say one thing.

The roster is finalized for Smash games pretty quickly after development starts. Given the time period Sakurai likely was pulling from, Elma has the timing all on her side.

For Rex to get in we have to assume that Sakurai either rejected Elma as a character choice, decided to include the protagonist from XC2, or wanted both.

Next, we have to assume that, after deciding he wants to include XC2's protagonist, he approaches Monolith Soft and decides he likes the design and can implement the blade mechanic to his satisfaction.

Once we assume that, we also have to assume that Sakurai is willing to include a character who has yet to be revealed to the public.

Then, we have to conclude that Sakurai has considered the risk of including this character despite the possibilities of: a lackluster reception to Rex as a protagonist (design, personality, abilities); poor game sales/reception; or even of the Switch not selling well at launch. (Mind, not even developer insight can predict the success of a game/console.)

While all of this is possible, it is not something we have precedence for. When Greninja was chosen, it was because the Pokemon company gave him concept art to include a Pokemon from XY. In that instance, the games were already essentially guaranteed successes by virtue of being Pokemon games, and the anime was already planning on pushing Greninja as a popular character.

With all of this in mind, why are we assuming that Rex is a more likely choice than Elma, who was (basically) the protagonist of the most recently released Xenoblade game at the time the roster was being decided? As DLC, Rex makes perfect sense, but why is there any reason to suspect him for the base game?

In all fairness, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had been in the works as early as July 2014, a few months before Smash 4 even released.

It's not farfetched to assume Sakurai found out about this and decided to wait until that game's protagonist had a design to create another Greninja situation.

 

[mario123007]

Appealing every fan is a fantasy. There will still be fans who liked Brawl's roster or Melee's events or whatever. But if we are talking about what made every game better, a semi-objective sum would be (as far as I got from the fans):

• Melee's mechanics but without bugs and a more balanced cast
• Brawl's musical score and a similar adventure mode with story cut-scenes
• Wii U's online system but better, since it was still best we got.
• Every possible character, stage, mode, item etc. returning.

Now, I don't think 3DS hold back Wii U version back too much. As far as we know, it lead to the omission of Ice Climbers and likely Squirtle and Ivysaur and gave developers less time. However, it did allow them to make a project plan this big in the first place. I don't think last game would be big as it was if it wasn't on the two main consoles of the Nintendo at that time.

Secondly, you can't do everything on that list. At the same time. Even story mode is way too much work to add modes and characters that wasn't in the last entry while adding new content. Melee's speed would undoubtedly turn off some players, since it was one of the things that Melee was critisized for.

I think Smash is just to big for anyone to make a "ultimate" one. But I also think every previous game surpassed its predecessors generally, so I don't think this one will be different. It will be great butby no means not without its mistakes.

I think you are slightly underestimate what Nintendo, and HAL (Probably Bandai Namco and Sakurai) can handle...
First off, Nintendo Switch itself is a perfect console to merge Wii U and 3DS core features, not to mention it's a way easier console to develop for, even for indie companies.

3DS not only hold back Wii U version but also like I said, it lack many modes compare to its Wii U counter part, I want to play Smash on the go but I don't want to limit only just with using the 3DS and no 8 player Smash, only down grade single players mode, no archives, can't upload to Youtuber or any social media besides Miiverse etc...

So maybe this is really me just asking too much, but I really hope Smash Bros Switch would be the Smash Bros that will not only be the best selling Smash Bros but also THE best Smash Bros with no legit argument, I can see that with Melee, Brawl and especially Smash 4. But Smash Bros Switch they just have the right chance to do so.

I mean we already got Botw and Odyssey which both regarded as the best Zelda and best Mario game in general... so looking forward to Smash Switch winning the GOTY, if not then at least the best fighting game lol.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'm hoping Simon's Basic attack is the Whip from Super Castlevania IV where it was omnidirectional (or at least the 8 cardinal). Hitt B and then a direction. Hold B down to do what Sheik did with it in Melee and Brawl with the whip flailing.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

My current conspiracy theory is if this rumor is true, then Sakurai asked Konami for Snake first to make that "Ultimate Smash Roster" and they negoitaed Simon as well in the process. It just doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't get Snake as well if Konami is involved again.

The only thing I can think of is that Sakurai wouldn't add Snake out of respect for Kojima, as from what I understand they're close friends and that's how Snake got in the first place. However I honestly don't see Kojima being like that, I think he'd be happy for Sakurai to include him again. But I don't know these people personally so...

 

[Pazzo.]

Question: how many times a day do specifically check the internet for any sort of Smash news and, before doing so, hope that theirs something there?

Zero times, but there was a period where I would check once every time I got to a computer.

Pictured: Me waiting for SSB4

 

[papagenos]

My current conspiracy theory is if this rumor is true, then Sakurai asked Konami for Snake first to make that "Ultimate Smash Roster" and they negoitaed Simon as well in the process. It just doesn't make sense to me that we wouldn't get Snake as well if Konami is involved again.

The only thing I can think of is that Sakurai wouldn't add Snake out of respect for Kojima, as from what I understand they're close friends and that's how Snake got in the first place. However I honestly don't see Kojima being like that, I think he'd be happy for Sakurai to include him again. But I don't know these people personally so...

I agree I feel like not getting snake last time had to do with not talking to konami at all because of what was going on with kojima. That said, I doubt kojima wouldnt want snake to return, i'm sure kojima still is very fond and proud of all the metal gear games, the series overall, and the character of snake and would like people to have him playable in smash as an honor to those games. So i feel like if konami is at the table again we'd get snake back, it would be incredibly odd and almost rude to talk to a former collaborator on smash (konami) and avoid talking about getting snake back, it would certainly come up and i just dont see how sakurai could say "no i wont add snake you guys are jerks to kojima...can i have simon though?" just seems it would be more formal and likely snake would have been the original intention of talking with konami at all OR if simon or whoever was in mind sakurai would be prepared to add back in snake as well.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

I agree I feel like not getting snake last time had to do with not talking to konami at all because of what was going on with kojima. That said, I doubt kojima wouldnt want snake to return, i'm sure kojima still is very fond and proud of all the metal gear games, the series overall, and the character of snake and would like people to have him playable in smash as an honor to those games. So i feel like if konami is at the table again we'd get snake back, it would be incredibly odd and almost rude to talk to a former collaborator on smash (konami) and avoid talking about getting snake back, it would certainly come up and i just dont see how sakurai could say "no i wont add snake you guys are jerks to kojima...can i have simon though?" just seems it would be more formal and likely snake would have been the original intention of talking with konami at all OR if simon or whoever was in mind sakurai would be prepared to add back in snake as well.

Yea and I don't see why Konami would be like nah you can't have Snake but here's Simon...

Well I already wanted this rumor to be true because of Ridley, and although I don't care about Simon, having Snake back would be a cool bonus!

I really hope some more people come out to back up this rumor...

 

[mario123007]

In all fairness, Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had been in the works as early as July 2014, a few months before Smash 4 even released.

It's not farfetched to assume Sakurai found out about this and decided to wait until that game's protagonist had a design to create another Greninja situation.

I mean, I am a bit tired of discussing anything about Xenoblade reps at this point... sort of...
That being said...

The recent video from Sourcegaming about Elma you will see many comment that objects the video's statement on "Xenoblade will get only one new rep"

Which is why the complaint makes sense when you realized the Fire Emblem got two new rep in game, one return, and one DLC...

 

[osby]

There's nothing wrong with getting two Xenoblade characters but to be honest, I'd feel a bit weird if we do get both of them. Xenoblade is still a very new series and having all three of its protagonists... kinda strange? Of course that's just me.


and no, FE and KI doesn't count

 

[DNeon]

There's nothing wrong with getting two Xenoblade characters but to be honest, I'd feel a bit weird if we do get both of them. Xenoblade is still a very new series and having all three of its protagonists... kinda strange? Of course that's just me.


and no, FE and KI doesn't count

I'd have no problem with it, but I do agree. At least if they choose Rex then when they release XCX 2 (cmon it had a cliffhanger) then it'd be Elma's time and we can have all 3 (that's assuming she isn't the rep for this one, which to me is a 50/50).

 

[BossPackunFlower]

Daisy is honestly a shoo in and I don't get why she is insulted.

She has a personality. Strong, active tomboy flower sports princess.

She is one of the most popular Nintendo characters not in yet.

Nintendo have started to give her more spotlight with her amiibo and the mobile initiative, and even third party games having her in.

She would complete the Princess Trio, that is officially recognised by Nintendo.

Also she got quite a lot of content around her in Smash 4, the last game. It makes me think she was actually considered.

She got a 15% in the Rate Their Chance thread? What? All hail the Tennis Flower Queen!

 

[LunchmanJ]

I'm sorry, but I gotta call you out on this.

I can not stand this "Well, this character never did nothing, but this" argument. First of all, Baby Mario has been in other games besides Yoshi's Island. He's been in various spin off titles as well as a playable protagonist in Mario & Luigi. And he definitely aids Yoshi in his adventures beyond being a health bar.

Second of all, what kind of argument is this? "What did Zelda ever do, man? Just stand there at the end of the game? All Falco ever did was complain!"

It's almost like your intentionally trying to cheapen and grossly over simplify the worth of a character. Which you are in fact doing. What matters is if a character is popular and if they work as a fighter. The extent of their usefulness in the corresponding game they debuted in is not what matters.

The way people here measure a character's worth is all out of wack. Taking a character like King K. Rool that's been dead for ten years and going "Well, he was a villain once so that means he's important." and then taking someone like Cranky Kong, who's been a vocal presence in every Donkey Kong Country game since Donkey Kong Country existed and going "He just a dumb old man that don't do nutin, but give you hints!"

This is becoming a tangent, but that's another thing. Being a villain doesn't mean crap. At least apparently not the man himself, Ganondorf wasn't even originally going to be in Melee, he wasn't even on Sakurai's radar, and their are plenty of villains that don't get in just for being villains. Andross, Giygas, Ridley, Samurai Goroh, Pokey, Kamek, Captain Syrup, Medusa/Hades, Metal Face.

You can't just go "Well, they are the villain of this franchise!". King K. Rool is long dead. He's one of my biggest requests for Super Smash Bros and I COULD see it happening after the ballot, but he is not "one of the most deserving characters" at this point nor is he likely.

Villains are of a lower priority, but they are still important to the plot whereas Cranky Kong appears for two minutes per game. Oh yeah, and he's playable in one game. Why is being important to the plot matter? Because it stays in your head because you're keeping track of it to understand what's going on in the game. Also, relevance doesn't matter. People say it matters because they think people are more familiar with new game. What's the fan's true reaction? Supporting dead characters like K. Rool. Why is it this way? Because the Internet's reviews, discussions, and references keep old games alive.

 

[NintenRob]

Daisy is honestly a shoo in and I don't get why she is insulted.

She has a personality. Strong, active tomboy flower sports princess.

She is one of the most popular Nintendo characters not in yet.

Nintendo have started to give her more spotlight with her amiibo and the mobile initiative, and even third party games having her in.

She would complete the Princess Trio, that is officially recognised by Nintendo.

Also she got quite a lot of content around her in Smash 4, the last game. It makes me think she was actually considered.

She got a 15% in the Rate Their Chance thread? What? All hail the Tennis Flower Queen!

There's no doubt in my mind that Daisy will get in.....

Spoiler

as a Peach alt

 

[BossPackunFlower]

There's no doubt in my mind that Daisy will get in.....

Spoiler

as a Peach alt

Personally I think Daisy would be better suited as a full fighter, with her own slot on the roster! If they could make a great moveset out of a Galaxy NPC, then Daisy should not be that hard to do at all, as she has a basis for a moveset already! I see her as the aggressive type, focusing on annoying the player with strings of strong hits, racking up damage even when she isn't around due to her gimmick of planting a flower on the enemies' heads. She has special flower sports equipment too. Even her dress is floral themed. It would be a waste if we didn't get a plant themed moveset for her IMO.

 

[Cosmic77]

I won't get too upset if Xenoblade somehow gets two newcomers (even though I think it's too soon for three reps). However, I'm gonna use the same argument people have used on me whenever I said that BotW should get a newcomer.

"Not EVERY game needs to get represented on the roster."

 

[TumblrFamous]

Daisy is honestly a shoo in and I don't get why she is insulted.

She has a personality. Strong, active tomboy flower sports princess.

She is one of the most popular Nintendo characters not in yet.

Nintendo have started to give her more spotlight with her amiibo and the mobile initiative, and even third party games having her in.

She would complete the Princess Trio, that is officially recognised by Nintendo.

Also she got quite a lot of content around her in Smash 4, the last game. It makes me think she was actually considered.

She got a 15% in the Rate Their Chance thread? What? All hail the Tennis Flower Queen!

I wouldn't call 3 trophies, a skin that's been in for the past 3 games, and a Smash Tour item quite a lot of content.

I'm sure there could be a sporty and flower-based moveset, but I don't think it's overly necessary. Characters like Paper Mario, Captain Toad, and Waluigi arguably have more going for them (I know it's not as cut-and-dry as "Toad is in so Daisy can't be", but there isn't a huge need already to represent Mario further, I'm of the opinion that Toad is one of the last few all-stars not yet in).

 

[-crump-]

Daisy is honestly a shoo in and I don't get why she is insulted.

*sigh*
Here we go again.

he has a personality. Strong, active tomboy flower sports princess.

This is a ****ing Nintendo game, there are thousands upon thousands of characters that “have personality” if you limit it to a one-sentence description.

She is one of the most popular Nintendo characters not in yet.

[citation needed]

Nintendo have started to give her more spotlight with her amiibo and the mobile initiative, and even third party games having her in.

there are many, many, many other potential characters with amiibos. Daisy is not special in this regard.
“Mobile initiative”? She’s an alt skin in a Mario app that didn’t even meet expectations.
3rd party additions? again, citation needed.

She would complete the Princess Trio, that is officially recognised by Nintendo.

This is not a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.

Also she got quite a lot of content around her in Smash 4, the last game. It makes me think she was actually considered.

Oh ****, you mean her old models got ported over three times for trophies in a game where there are literally over 800 trophies, most of which took no effort?
Daisy is, once again, nothing special.

Daisyposters are all the same.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Has anyone else seen how Nintendo keeps changing the name of the Video Presentation/ E3 direct within the past 24 hours? I have no clue what's going on over there lol

 

[Originality]

I'm actually curious as to why Peach got a Daisy colored skin and not a Daisy alt like Olimar/Alph and the Koopalings. I'd be satisfied if she at least got that in 5

 

[BossPackunFlower]

I'm actually curious as to why Peach got a Daisy colored skin and not a Daisy alt like Olimar/Alph and the Koopalings. I'd be satisfied if she at least got that in 5

It is because Daisy has too many differences from Peach to be an alternate costume. Olimar and Alph are the exact same in Pikmin 3 and the Koopalings are in a car. Being an alternate means that the game does not consider you as a character so Daisy mains would technically be Peach mains. Also, Rosalina got her own slot, so why not Daisy?

None of the female characters in the game have a "loud" playstyle or have moves that hit like a truck in the way Yoshi and Captain Falcon do.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I'm actually curious as to why Peach got a Daisy colored skin and not a Daisy alt like Olimar/Alph and the Koopalings. I'd be satisfied if she at least got that in 5

Daisy with peach's moveset wouldn't really fit the character tbh

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I won't get too upset if Xenoblade somehow gets two newcomers (even though I think it's too soon for three reps). However, I'm gonna use the same argument people have used on me whenever I said that BotW should get a newcomer.

"Not EVERY game needs to get represented on the roster."

I mean it's not exactly as if game "repping" begins and ends with playable characters. No Xenoblade characters wouldn't really bother me. But then I'd say the same if we got no Switch-era newcomers.

 

[Pakky]

Ya'll hear about this for Ms.Croft?

 

[Nekoo]

Ya'll hear about this for Ms.Croft?

Who care about Lara Croft?
Madden in Smash when?

 

[Zeox]

But what about Porky?
* He is a villain, Smash needs more of that
* lot of pontential of moveset with his spider robot from the end of earthbound
* One of the most popular Mother/ Earthbound characters
* Iwata pretty much saved Earthbound, so it would be a nice touch to have a character from that game
* Could have great taunts (spankety spankety spankety!) and an awesome final smash (Summons Giygas)
* Not too big

 

[Cosmic77]

But what about Porky?
* He is a villain, Smash needs more of that
* lot of pontential of moveset with his spider robot from the end of earthbound
* One of the most popular Mother/ Earthbound characters
* Iwata pretty much saved Earthbound, so it would be a nice touch to have a character from that game
* Could have great taunts (spankety spankety spankety!) and an awesome final smash (Summons Giygas)
* Not too big

I can't deny that Porky would be a cool addition, but unless Nintendo taps into EarthBound somewhere in the near future, I don't see Porky, Ninten, Masked Man, or any other character from the franchise getting in Smash.

 

[Pakky]

But what about Porky?
* He is a villain, Smash needs more of that
* lot of pontential of moveset with his spider robot from the end of earthbound
* One of the most popular Mother/ Earthbound characters
* Iwata pretty much saved Earthbound, so it would be a nice touch to have a character from that game
* Could have great taunts (spankety spankety spankety!) and an awesome final smash (Summons Giygas)
* Not too big

I am an advocate for Porky.

 

[Zeox]

I can't deny that Porky would be a cool addition, but unless Nintendo taps into EarthBound somewhere in the near future, I don't see Porky, Ninten, Masked Man, or any other character from the franchise getting in Smash.

Yeah I agree, Mother right now is not very relevant... unless they finally localize Mother 3 and I don't see that happening, sadly.
But I wouldn't lose hope, Nintendo is a box full of surprises.

 

[Pazzo.]

*sigh*
Here we go again.


This is a ****ing Nintendo game, there are thousands upon thousands of characters that “have personality” if you limit it to a one-sentence description.

[citation needed]


there are many, many, many other potential characters with amiibos. Daisy is not special in thos regard.
“Mobile initiative”? She’s an alt skin in a Mario app that didn’t even meet expectations.
3rd party additions? again, citation needed.


This is not a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.


Oh ****, you mean her old models got ported over three times for trophies in a game where there are literally over 800 trophies, most of which took no effort?
Daisy is, once again, nothing special.

Daisyposters are all the same.

Can I have your autograph?

 

[J0eyboi]

So there's been a lot of discussion about Ganondorf's moveset and how fitting it is, but whether or not you think his moveset is good or not, there's one thing we can all agree on: Ganondorf's walk and run animations look stupid.

Robin and Lucina were lucky to get in on Sakurai's own account. Awakening was barely considered despite releasing in April 2012, more than two years before Smash for 3DS released in September 2014.

Robin was in the original project proposal. Awakening was definitely not "barely considered".

 

[Murlough]

.Daisyposters are all the same.

Only part i disagree with. You can see in this thread that there are Daisy supporters that don't think she's a shoo-in.

 

[Garteam]

I am I the only one who's not fully sold on the idea that we'll get a new Xenoblade character at all? The conversation seems to have turned to "Could we have two Xenoblade reps?" when I'm not entirely sure we'll get even one. I'm seeing a lot of similarities between the treatment of Xenoblade now and DK's treatment in Smash 4 speculation, where everyone assumed the franchise would get a new rep because it had new games between the last Smash and this one.

 

[Megadoomer]

Daisy is honestly a shoo in and I don't get why she is insulted.

She has a personality. Strong, active tomboy flower sports princess.

She is one of the most popular Nintendo characters not in yet.

Nintendo have started to give her more spotlight with her amiibo and the mobile initiative, and even third party games having her in.

She would complete the Princess Trio, that is officially recognised by Nintendo.

Also she got quite a lot of content around her in Smash 4, the last game. It makes me think she was actually considered.

She got a 15% in the Rate Their Chance thread? What? All hail the Tennis Flower Queen!

This has nothing to do with anything that was being discussed. If you feel the need to bring up Daisy, try bringing it up naturally, as opposed to shoe-horning it into the conversation.