Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[osby]

I can't believe some people actually believe that Jigglypuff is more likely to get cut than Mewtwo, a character she outprioritised in Smash 64, Brawl and Smash 4. And no, Mewtwo's popularity doesn't make him immune to getting cut again.



I feel it's going to be a mix of a few ballot choices and mostly characters active during the Wii U/3DS era.



Unless they're last-minute clones.

I just hope there will be enough development time, so we won't fight on veterans. It's tiresome enough fighting over newcomers.

 

[zauberdragon]

Pokemon might be the Fire Emblem of this game. Everyone thinks there will be a newcomer and a cut... but no, everyoneand Pichu returns and also we get two more.

I’d genuinely rather this scenario. Let’s be honest, Pokémon is a bigger and more recognisable franchise than Fire Emblem, and you won’t get the standard ‘just more anime swordsman’ criticism.

Not to say I feel you can’t do unique move sets for the FE guys, look at robin or the untapped axe, archer or lance characters, but Pokémon has a wider potential.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The thing about people treating roster finalization being done two years ago as ironclad proof that Sakurai will select so and so and so and so, etc, etc?

Sakurai is a high ranking person at Nintendo. I very much doubt they're letting him go in completely blind to a game that they most likely knew would come out 2 years after the fact. They would most certainly let him know what the face of the Switch and 3DS would look like before his game's release if he asked.

After all we know he does take some consideration into whether a character is gonna have a future. It's not like he sat down in 2016 and just assumed a character would still be popular two years later. No matter who they are. You know save maybe people like Inklings and Isabelle. There's just no stopping those two.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

https://youtu.be/9kC9dpgdCkk

Nintendo ain't screwing around apparently. There's going to be registration to play the demo at E3, has this happened before? Never been to E3 wouldnt know lol.

Anyone going to E3?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

After all we know he does take some consideration into whether a character is gonna have a future.

Well, he doesn't have Future Vision and his thoughts can be wrong. He didn't know that Lucas wasn't going to have his game released internationally back when the roster for Brawl was finalised.

Kid Icarus doesn't have a future at this point but Palutena still got in Smash 4 seeing as Uprising still had a recent game back in 2012.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

To be fair to use Palutena as an example can be faulty, for all we know, Sakurai himself personally knows that she and Dark Pit have a future, because he's like ''I swear Nintendo once I am unbound from the chains of Smash you will have another Kid Icarus game on your hands or so help me I will cut Mario from Smash Brothers."

 

[True Blue Warrior]

To be fair to use Palutena as an example can be faulty, for all we know, Sakurai himself personally knows that she and Dark Pit have a future, because he's like ''I swear Nintendo once I am unbound from the chains of Smash you will have another Kid Icarus game on your hands or so help me I will cut Mario from Smash Brothers."

Sakurai has no interest in a Kid Icarus sequel.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Sakurai has no interest in a Kid Icarus sequel.

Okay, Wikipedia. You need to calm down.

I don't know when you got human sentience but this fountain of knowledge is too much.

Interesting to know though. Hadn't heard of that.

 

[osby]

Sakurai has no interest in a Kid Icarus sequel.

He's not a big fan of sequels, after all. I don't think a game isn't big as Smash can force him to keep coming back.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Sakurai has no interest in a Kid Icarus sequel.

there was certainly no sequel planned, which was your point. but I'm calling bull**** on this sakurai, weren't melee, brawl and smash 4 all supposed to be the last smash games? lmao, watch him make one

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

there was certainly no sequel planned, which was your point. but I'm calling bull**** on this sakurai, weren't melee, brawl and smash 4 all supposed to be the last smash games? lmao, watch him make one

It means he has no plans. Doesn't mean plans don't change.

Also, keep in mind he was asked to make those games by Iwata(Smash Switch is the first time Iwata didn't ask him. We don't know the details enough either. Maybe he actually wanted to make this one without being pushed by others. Since he was part of the DLC Team, his views could've changed. I mean, it's not like he doesn't change his mind quite often anyway. This is how Villager got in).

 

[Staarih]

Sakurai has no interest in a Kid Icarus sequel.

Someone else really needs to pick up Kid Icarus. The world and characters are too good (thanks Sakurai) to be left unnoticed for another twenty years. Wouldn’t hurt Nintendo to keep up with different genres either (on-rail shooters).

Then again, Sakurai is the sneaky devil he is who might say one thing but does the other. So who knows.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Sakurai is someone who changes his mind quite frequently. He's like that Hollywood starlet who says ''Oh no. I don't think I'll be in the sequel."

Then two years later she's the first one to sign on.

 

[osby]

Sakurai is someone who changes his mind quite frequently. He's like that Hollywood starlet who says ''Oh no. I don't think I'll be in the sequel."

Then two years later she's the first one to sign on.

I'm not sure if one can call Smash frequent.

 

[Nekoo]

Sakurai is someone who changes his mind quite frequently. He's like that Hollywood starlet who says ''Oh no. I don't think I'll be in the sequel."

Then two years later she's the first one to sign on.

If that was true, he would still be here directing Kirby Games-
The only game that he still comes back to is Smash. And he always make each smash as if it was the last one put putting his soul in it.
He's been know to only change his mind for smash, but everytime there has been another factor for everytimes it happened (Iwata asking him directly, Miyamoto request, Kojima request etc...)

 

[Wyoming]

I mean everyone changes their mind after years have gone by. Only when Sakurai does it that people here act shocked and astonished that such a thing is possible

 

[Pazzo.]

I wouldn't be surprised by a Kid Icarus sequel, but I think Sak would probably rather work on something new. Because by the time he finished with that, it'll be time for Smash 6.

You can't escape from cross(over) fate.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Okay, Wikipedia. You need to calm down.

I don't know when you got human sentience but this fountain of knowledge is too much.

Interesting to know though. Hadn't heard of that.

But if I don't cite my sources, people might think I'm making stuff up!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

I mean everyone changes their mind after years have gone by. Only when Sakurai does it that people here act shocked and astonished that such a thing is possible

That's right that's how villager and The Mii's got in smash 4

And it's the one and only reason why Ridley will always have a shot at smash bros playable status

 

[MrRoidley]

Pardon my ignorance but who is Emily? Does she work for Nintendo or something?

She's a game developer and an industry insider of sorts I guess. She has leaked some correct stuff regarding the Switch's specs and a few details on games (Mario Rabbids for example), but she has also been off some times (like when she said you could play as girl Link in BOTW)

 

[Arcadenik]

she said you could play as girl Link in BOTW

I guess she was referring to that part in Breath of the Wild where Link

Spoiler

could dress like a Gerudo to get into Gerudo Town and everyone thought he was a woman.

 

[MysticKnives]

I'm pretty sure characters could've been chosen later after the roster was finalized and put in for DLC. Thoughts?

Definitely. It’s not impossible.

 

[Pazzo.]

Emily Rogers has never been seen in public, so she may be an alt for someone else... Maybe Liam, maybe Nibel.

I personally think she's an advanced AI.

 

[Cosmic77]

I’d genuinely rather this scenario. Let’s be honest, Pokémon is a bigger and more recognisable franchise than Fire Emblem, and you won’t get the standard ‘just more anime swordsman’ criticism.

Not to say I feel you can’t do unique move sets for the FE guys, look at robin or the untapped axe, archer or lance characters, but Pokémon has a wider potential.

At the very least, I'd say Sakurai can probably get away with adding two Pokemon newcomers for this game before people would start with the heavy complaining. He was pretty reserved with Pokemon in Smash 4, technically keeping the number of reps even with Brawl.

Honestly, Sakurai could give us nine or ten Pokemon reps (not that I want that many) and we wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on if we thought that was too much. The series is insanely popular, there are dozens upon dozens of Pokemon to choose from, and most have a very unique moveset and design.

 

[APC99]

The thing about people treating roster finalization being done two years ago as ironclad proof that Sakurai will select so and so and so and so, etc, etc?

Sakurai is a high ranking person at Nintendo. I very much doubt they're letting him go in completely blind to a game that they most likely knew would come out 2 years after the fact. They would most certainly let him know what the face of the Switch and 3DS would look like before his game's release if he asked.

After all we know he does take some consideration into whether a character is gonna have a future. It's not like he sat down in 2016 and just assumed a character would still be popular two years later. No matter who they are. You know save maybe people like Inklings and Isabelle. There's just no stopping those two.

You mean like how he sat down in 2012 and decided characters from Awakening, Uprising, Galaxy, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, New Super Mario Bros, etc. would still be popular in 2014?

Or how he sat down in 2005 / 2006 and decided characters from Wind Waker, Path of Radiance, Mother 3, WarioWare, etc. would still be popular?

Or how he's stated time and time again that game releases are crucial to helping him choose the roster because he isn't actually affiliated with Nintendo and is rather a freelance developer brought on by Nintendo to make a project proposal without any real access to their release slate beyond what's already known, and likely wouldn't get said info until after the proposal is approved?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess she was referring to that part in Breath of the Wild where Link

Spoiler

could dress like a Gerudo to get into Gerudo Town and everyone thought he was a woman.

That or some of the images, due to Link being far more ambiguous gender design than before, made that error.

He doesn't look nearly as manly as is. If I remember right, that was intentional so people could connect with the character better, despite being 100% male no matter what.

 

[osby]

That or some of the images, due to Link being far more ambiguous gender design than before, made that error.

He doesn't look nearly as manly as is. If I remember right, that was intentional so people could connect with the character better, despite being 100% male no matter what.

I heard it first time. It's actually a pretty neat purpose for making a rather androgen design.

 

[Pazzo.]

This Pokemon business is interesting, it makes a guy wonder where Evee could possibly be right now.

On or off the roster?

 

[Cosmic77]

You mean like how he sat down in 2012 and decided characters from Awakening, Uprising, Galaxy, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, New Super Mario Bros, etc. would still be popular in 2014?

Or how he sat down in 2005 / 2006 and decided characters from Wind Waker, Path of Radiance, Mother 3, WarioWare, etc. would still be popular?

Or how he's stated time and time again that game releases are crucial to helping him choose the roster because he isn't actually affiliated with Nintendo and is rather a freelance developer brought on by Nintendo to make a project proposal without any real access to their release slate beyond what's already known, and likely wouldn't get said info until after the proposal is approved?

You're probably right. Guess we're only getting Inklings, Captain Toad, Elma, and Decidueye in this Smash. Everyone else has terrible timing.

You're right when you say that releases are crucial to characters getting in Smash, but a character's popularity going forward is still something Sakurai takes into consideration. Oddly enough, you used Rosalina as an example of a character getting in through relevance, when her real relevance was in 2007-2010, not mid 2012. If anything, her own popularity and the success of Galaxy is what got her in Smash, not lucky timing.

This Pokemon business is interesting, it makes a guy wonder where Evee could possibly be right now.

On or off the roster?

As of right now, I'm saying Eevee is DLC at best. The Switch Pokemon games needed to come out last year before I'd consider a possible Greninja scenario.

 

[osby]

This Pokemon business is interesting, it makes a guy wonder where Evee could possibly be right now.

On or off the roster?

Maybe he was added early as a Pokeball Pokemon? It was kinda suprising it took until the last game, given its popularity.

But it's really weird, talking about this, when development team currently in their last month of working on the game and a lot of things are set in stone.

 

[APC99]

You're probably right. Guess we're only getting Inklings, Captain Toad, Elma, and Decidueye in this Smash. Everyone else has terrible timing.

You're right when you say that releases are crucial to characters getting in Smash, but a character's popularity going forward is still something Sakurai takes into consideration. Oddly enough, you used Rosalina as an example of a character getting in through relevance, when her real relevance was in 2007-2010, not mid 2012. If anything, her own popularity and the success of Galaxy is what got her in Smash, not lucky timing.

My point wasn't that characters released before the project started didn't have a chance, it's that characters after the project started aren't as likely unless it's something like Lucario/Greninja advertising, or Lucas, where they didn't anticipate delays or lack of localization.

I really don't think we'll be seeing much from the Switch's library of original games beyond BotW (Which has been known to us since before Smash Wii U / 3DS DLC even ended).

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You mean like how he sat down in 2012 and decided characters from Awakening, Uprising, Galaxy, Xenoblade, Punch-Out, New Super Mario Bros, etc. would still be popular in 2014?

Or how he sat down in 2005 / 2006 and decided characters from Wind Waker, Path of Radiance, Mother 3, WarioWare, etc. would still be popular?

Or how he's stated time and time again that game releases are crucial to helping him choose the roster because he isn't actually affiliated with Nintendo and is rather a freelance developer brought on by Nintendo to make a project proposal without any real access to their release slate beyond what's already known, and likely wouldn't get said info until after the proposal is approved?

I mean, he has stated that the "trends of the time" was a pretty big factor when deciding newcomers. Whilst this was quote was in context of Smash 4 specifically, you can see this sort of thing in previous games. For example, by the time Brawl was released, stuff like Path of Radiance Ike and Lucas (since Mother was confirmed to end back in 2006) felt unintentionally "outdated".

 

[Cosmic77]

My point wasn't that characters released before the project started didn't have a chance, it's that characters after the project started aren't as likely unless it's something like Lucario/Greninja advertising, or Lucas, where they didn't anticipate delays or lack of localization.

I really don't think we'll be seeing much from the Switch's library of original games beyond BotW (Which has been known to us since before Smash Wii U / 3DS DLC even ended).

The fact that Sakurai can work out getting early peeks at characters from something as big as TPC shows me that he can get access to certain things if he really wants it. The pickings for relevant characters around the beginning of development are much slimmer this time around, so I wouldn't be surprised one bit if blatant advertising plays a huge part in this roster. It's a safe move to be honest, and it's likely one of the best options Sakurai can go with if he wants to appeal to both casuals and hardcore Smash fans.

If the character in question comes from a game that was in later stages of development at least by the end of 2016, then I'm not going to underestimate their chances just yet.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The fact that Sakurai can work out getting early peeks at characters from something as big as TPC shows me that he can get access to certain things if he really wants it. The pickings for relevant characters around the beginning of development are much slimmer this time around, so I wouldn't be surprised one bit if blatant advertising plays a huge part in this roster. It's a safe move to be honest, and it's likely one of the best options Sakurai can go with if he wants to appeal to both casuals and hardcore Smash fans.

If the character in question comes from a game that was in later stages of development at least by the end of 2016, then I'm not going to underestimate their chances just yet.

That's assuming Sakurai won't look at the entirety of the 3DS/Wii U era for a large portion of the newcomers. This would give us possibilities like Isabelle, Dixie, Ashley, Captain Toad, Bandana Dee, Paper Mario and a Gen 7 Pokemon. That's not taking into account curveball, third-party and retro characters.

And Sakurai does have a way to cater to the "silent majority" of the Smash fan base thanks to the ballot, which has 1.8 million votes. Catering to general fans won't be an issue.

 

[papagenos]

I will say on the subject of Eevee being playable; its not like eevee is a new character or hasnt been in the spot light for years, i mean go out to any store selling pokemon stuff and every hat,back pack, plushie etc... will generally have a version that features eevee and its evolutions. eevee is HEAVILY featured nearly as much as pikachu these days in pokemon product material. actually shocked its taken this long to give Eevee the kind of prominence the pokemon has everywhere else in a main series game (if the rumors are true of course). So I don't think it'd be crazy for sakurai a few years back to be told by gamefreaks that Eevee sells well and they plan on promoting the pokemon heavily in the future and thats who they want sakurai to use. I mean maybe not, but its not unlikely at all, gamefreaks knows where they are headed with the pokemon franchise years in advance and they HAVE been pushing Eevee with merchandise (because eevee IS super popular and always has been) for years already so this wouldn't be like greninja where its some unknown pokemon that will be promoted by the company in the near future, its Eevee who is already a pokemon super star.

Now that said I don't think if we get Eevee that means we cant get someone like decidueye as well, people argue fire emblem is popular enough to have its bloated roster spot of characters and that the game always features many characters so in that aspect having many playable characters in smash represents the fire emblem games well... given that argument I'd say pokemon wins out on all fronts here; popularity wise the franchise is likely bigger than mario and literally the games motto and goal is "gotta catch em all" so if theres an arguement for a large amount of roster spots "representing the game well" than pokemon IS the series to have a large number of reps. My saltiness at the number of FE reps shows through here but honestly my point is that if any series could have multiple newcomers and a large portion of the roster devoted to it and make sense to do so, pokemon is that IP.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Eevee and/or Gengar is the frontliner for another Gen 1 Pokemon

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The thing about people treating roster finalization being done two years ago as ironclad proof that Sakurai will select so and so and so and so, etc, etc?

Sakurai is a high ranking person at Nintendo. I very much doubt they're letting him go in completely blind to a game that they most likely knew would come out 2 years after the fact. They would most certainly let him know what the face of the Switch and 3DS would look like before his game's release if he asked.

After all we know he does take some consideration into whether a character is gonna have a future. It's not like he sat down in 2016 and just assumed a character would still be popular two years later. No matter who they are. You know save maybe people like Inklings and Isabelle. There's just no stopping those two.

I’m not sure if you meant it literally or not, but Sakurai technically doesn’t work at Nintendo. He never did. He’s always been at either HAL or Sora. Granted, I can see how he might be considered “high ranking”.

For the most part though, I agree. Sakurai certainly doesn’t just start shopping around. Considering he’s basically contracted to make these games, he almost definitely sits with a higher up at Nintendo to go over specifics, plans, the future. At least, with the console after the Wii U in mind, I would think it would be critical to capitalize on a number of things.

At the very least, I think this is why we could see newer characters like Rex and MAYBE Spring Man.

 

[Cosmic77]

That's assuming Sakurai won't look at the entirety of the 3DS/Wii U era for a large portion of the newcomers. This would give us possibilities like Isabelle, Dixie, Ashley, Captain Toad, Bandana Dee, Paper Mario and a Gen 7 Pokemon. That's not taking into account curveball, third-party and retro characters.

And Sakurai does have a way to cater to the "silent majority" of the Smash fan base thanks to the ballot, which has 1.8 million votes. Catering to general fans won't be an issue.

Unless you assume that literally all of those characters you listed are getting in, that's not nearly enough to make a roster of newcomers out of, even if you throw in a few ballot characters (Heck, quite a few popular ballot characters are already on that list).

And as far the ballot goes, 1.8 million votes is pretty small when you compare that to the actual sales of Smash 3DS/Wii U. The ballot gives us a vivid idea of what the Smash fanbase wants, but I don't think the general audience (especially those who didn't pick up a Nintendo console until the Switch) would share that same excitement.

 

[Arcanir]

I have to say, I'm starting to feel Greninja's case may be becoming a bit of a pitfall for us. We're so quick to say 'oh, well Greninja was added early, why can't character x?' that we neglect to consider why Greninja was done in that way, what circumstances were around that character, and why he's been one such exception in Smash's history. We can't just take away certain parts that made his inclusion possible, there are multiple factors that added up to that inclusion and his complete situation may not be similar to what characters like Rex/Pyra and Spring Man's situations are. Additionally those characters' respective franchises could be approached in different ways then what Greninja's franchise was back with Smash 4, so there's no guarantee that Sakurai's going in with the mindset of filling a slot like he did. In short, while they may share the timing, they may not share the process or conclusion, and we have to consider that when assessing why they may or may not be in.

That's not to say that Rex/Pyra and Spring Man are doomed, there could be a difference in their approach and development that allows for their inclusion, but I feel relying on Greninja consistently to write off that potential barrier is causing us to overlook the full picture. There are other characters that did come too late to get included (ex. Olimar in Melee), they could be one additional example of that just like they could be another Greninja.

 

[zauberdragon]

My main issue with eevee is I just can’t see him having a particularly unique or interesting moveset without involving his evolutions which would be

A) involving transformations which Sakurai culled before smash 4
B) involve de-evolution which flies in the face of the conventions of the main games

I’m not doubting eevee’s status as one of the series more recognisable faces but I could honestly name 100 Pokémon who would make a more interesting fighter then eevee.