Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SuperSmashStephen]

Okay, someone explain to me what’s going on with the sudden Eevee playset, and why it’d be a problem to have the eeveelutions show up, and then disappear. Along the lines of Evoboost where they just show up, then go away. Even though all they do it power Eevee up, they are essentially helping him, and I think some liberties could be taken.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

The character designs of the Inklings as well as the design of the Splat Bomb and Splattershots used in the trailer is more akin to Splatoon 1 than 2.

For all we know tho it's just cause it's the more iconic design, remember that villager used their old look rather than the new leaf one

 

[smileMasky]

For a reason or another I get the feeling 99% of the roster of smash 4 will come back. Like all of it

 

[Roberk]

Here's my spin on the potential Eevee moveset: Innovate a little.

Eevee will have a slot on the CSS and you can cycle between different Eeveelutions. However, these aren't alternate costumes, they will tie into gameplay.

A regular Eevee will always start the battle. As time goes on and damage is taken or dealt (or some other neat factors idk) an EXP gauge will fill up at the bottom of the screen right above Eevee's portrait. Kind of like Little Mac's KO gauge. Once this meter fills, you can press neutral special (or something else, it just needs to execute the evolution) and evolve into the Eeveelution you choose on the character selection screen. This Eeveelution will reset upon death, so each stock is a new EXP gauge you have to fill up.

This seems like a good way to implement all of the Eevees, it avoids the major concern of doing too much at once while letting you have the option to do one of many things. It can even play into the aspect of strategy from Pokemon and Eeveelutions in general: You want to choose the best option for you and your situation. The Eevees can have different technical attributes like speed, weight, etc. to differentiate them without having to put too much work into a bunch of specials and moves (because having Eeveelutions with fully unique movesets is super implausible, that's 8 newcomers in one.)

 

[Cosmic77]

For a reason or another I get the feeling 99% of the roster of smash 4 will come back. Like all of it

That's certainly a possibility, but just remember that you have nothing to lose if you walk into E3 expecting a few cuts. Play it safe.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my spin on the potential Eevee moveset: Innovate a little.

Eevee will have a slot on the CSS and you can cycle between different Eeveelutions. However, these aren't alternate costumes, they will tie into gameplay.

A regular Eevee will always start the battle. As time goes on and damage is taken or dealt (or some other neat factors idk) an EXP gauge will fill up at the bottom of the screen right above Eevee's portrait. Kind of like Little Mac's KO gauge. Once this meter fills, you can press neutral special (or something else, it just needs to execute the evolution) and evolve into the Eeveelution you choose on the character selection screen. This Eeveelution will reset upon death, so each stock is a new EXP gauge you have to fill up.

This seems like a good way to implement all of the Eevees, it avoids the major concern of doing too much at once while letting you have the option to do one of many things. It can even play into the aspect of strategy from Pokemon and Eeveelutions in general: You want to choose the best option for you and your situation. The Eevees can have different technical attributes like speed, weight, etc. to differentiate them without having to put too much work into a bunch of specials and moves (because having Eeveelutions with fully unique movesets is super implausible, that's 8 newcomers in one.)

That doesn't change the fact 8 separate characters have to be designed, programmed, balanced, and tested.

It's a developing nightmare.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Here's my spin on the potential Eevee moveset: Innovate a little.

Eevee will have a slot on the CSS and you can cycle between different Eeveelutions. However, these aren't alternate costumes, they will tie into gameplay.

A regular Eevee will always start the battle. As time goes on and damage is taken or dealt (or some other neat factors idk) an EXP gauge will fill up at the bottom of the screen right above Eevee's portrait. Kind of like Little Mac's KO gauge. Once this meter fills, you can press neutral special (or something else, it just needs to execute the evolution) and evolve into the Eeveelution you choose on the character selection screen. This Eeveelution will reset upon death, so each stock is a new EXP gauge you have to fill up.

This seems like a good way to implement all of the Eevees, it avoids the major concern of doing too much at once while letting you have the option to do one of many things. It can even play into the aspect of strategy from Pokemon and Eeveelutions in general: You want to choose the best option for you and your situation. The Eevees can have different technical attributes like speed, weight, etc. to differentiate them without having to put too much work into a bunch of specials and moves (because having Eeveelutions with fully unique movesets is super implausible, that's 8 newcomers in one.)

It'd make more sense to let the player choose each stock, so the evolution mechanic exists for flexibility rather than just forcing you to play a bad character before getting the same better one.
Realistically it might actually be fine if they all had unique specials and a few other moveset differences. If they can make 400 extra specials for what is plainly a throwaway mechanic, they can probably afford to make another ~30.

Edit: To people who say Sakurai wouldn't do this, remember he made Kirby's Adventure.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Here's my spin on the potential Eevee moveset: Innovate a little.

Eevee will have a slot on the CSS and you can cycle between different Eeveelutions. However, these aren't alternate costumes, they will tie into gameplay.

A regular Eevee will always start the battle. As time goes on and damage is taken or dealt (or some other neat factors idk) an EXP gauge will fill up at the bottom of the screen right above Eevee's portrait. Kind of like Little Mac's KO gauge. Once this meter fills, you can press neutral special (or something else, it just needs to execute the evolution) and evolve into the Eeveelution you choose on the character selection screen. This Eeveelution will reset upon death, so each stock is a new EXP gauge you have to fill up.

This seems like a good way to implement all of the Eevees, it avoids the major concern of doing too much at once while letting you have the option to do one of many things. It can even play into the aspect of strategy from Pokemon and Eeveelutions in general: You want to choose the best option for you and your situation. The Eevees can have different technical attributes like speed, weight, etc. to differentiate them without having to put too much work into a bunch of specials and moves (because having Eeveelutions with fully unique movesets is super implausible, that's 8 newcomers in one.)

An interesting idea but one that honestly seems a little confusing and inconvenient for a casual playerbase. And then there's the whole '8 eevees' thing which you still have to implement, balance, give different effects and attributes etc etc, seems like a nightmare to implement

 

[New_Dumal]

Since the subject is Eevee moveset, I will assume there was no leaks or interesting stuff lately.

 

[Sonic Poke]

Why can't eevee just have a normal pokemon moveset without all this fancyness. That would be much fairer to the pokemon.

We could have a Bowser Jr. situation where the eeveelution are special costumes that have differentceffects for moves with the same attributes.
For example, Swift could be the n-special, while it is Water Pulse for Vaporeon, Razor Leaf for Leafeon, Ember for Flareon, Pin Missile for Jolteon, Screech for Umbreon, Psybeam for Espeon, Ice Shard for Glaceon and Fairy wind for Sylveon.
All of them do the same damage, the same knock back, they just differ on the aesthetics.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Why can't eevee just have a normal pokemon moveset without all this fancyness. That would be much fairer to the pokemon.

We could have a Bowser Jr. situation where the eeveelution are special costumes that have differentceffects for moves with the same attributes.
For example, Swift could be the n-special, while it is Water Pulse for Vaporeon, Razor Leaf for Leafeon, Ember for Flareon, Pin Missile for Jolteon, Screech for Umbreon, Psybeam for Espeon, Ice Shard for Glaceon and Fairy wind for Sylveon.
All of them do the same damage, the same knock back, they just differ on the aesthetics.

Mostly because eevee alone is boring, and it's whole gimmick throughout the series and the reason it's popular is the eeveelutions

 

[Super Flygon]

Can't really see Eevee and/or its Eeveelutions being playable, nor do I want them playable.

I could see Exreme Evoboost being used by Eevee when it is picked as a PokeBall Pokemon though.

 

[Sigran101]

More time spent on any kind of newcomers? Good.

More time spent on unnecessary veterans? Not so good.

That's the entire point of the post.

''Heavy hitting" is subjective anyways.

Especially in a fanbase that has had difficulties understanding why people like Pac Man, Ryu, and Cloud are big deals, but turn around and get why Mega Man is for some reason.

Not to even touch that we've had the Lara Croft discussion seventy billion times now and still to this day people still don't understand she's the most iconic female video game character for some reason.

It just goes to show while Lara Croft is heavy hitting to some?

Some anime chick from an uprising Nintendo franchise is heavy hitting?

And to others? Both are.

The problem with the whole Lara Croft debate is that iconic is subjective. For people who were teens or tweens when she first appeared, she is crazy iconic. For people who were getting into video games when the Wii came out, probably not so much. I personally didn't even know who she is until several years ago. Is she incredibley iconic? Of course. Is she the most iconic female character of all time? Not so sure. We live in a time where the freaking angry birds are probably some of the most iconic characters out there. It's like trying to decide on the most iconic movie character. Some people will probably say Darth Vader. Some will say Indiana Jones. Modern kids will probably say iron Man or something. It depends on the person. You really can't call anyone the most iconic of all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why can't eevee just have a normal pokemon moveset without all this fancyness. That would be much fairer to the pokemon.

We could have a Bowser Jr. situation where the eeveelution are special costumes that have differentceffects for moves with the same attributes.
For example, Swift could be the n-special, while it is Water Pulse for Vaporeon, Razor Leaf for Leafeon, Ember for Flareon, Pin Missile for Jolteon, Screech for Umbreon, Psybeam for Espeon, Ice Shard for Glaceon and Fairy wind for Sylveon.
All of them do the same damage, the same knock back, they just differ on the aesthetics.

Those sound highly complicated to make work. That's still a lot, because you're making new animations for many moves.

Bowser Jr. doesn't do this. It just had 8 models animated to all act exactly the same. I think some of the ending taunts might've been different. And obviously unique voices.

It's really not the same thing. Having the other 7 as a costume could work, but that's as best as you could get it. If you try to implement too many changes like that, you get a super complicated mess that takes forever to make work. You also can get a lot of hitboxes that don't fit the exact model of the attack. It's a fun idea, but not feasible.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

What Pokemon are y'all rooting to be in Smash Switch?

I'm leaning towards Decidueye or Mimikyu myself. Decidueye could be a fun archer-type character but have a variety of Ghost or shadow attacks to make him feel different in comparison to Link and Pit. Mimikyu on the other hand would be a pleasant surprise if it were playable, being one of the breakout stars of Sun/Moon. Could have it's Disguise ability as a Special where it can tank one hit with no damage, gets faster from it's broken disguise but becomes more prone to being launched.

That's how I'm imagining Decidueye or Mimikyu. Any other Pokémon character could make me go "Oh, they're in the game. That's cool." Wouldn't be bummed too much.

Though with this Eevee debate going on, I think it's more likely to stay a Poké Ball assist. If you're letting me choose an RGBY Poké Promotion?

That's right.

 

[Murlough]

Why can't eevee just have a normal pokemon moveset without all this fancyness. That would be much fairer to the pokemon.

We could have a Bowser Jr. situation where the eeveelution are special costumes that have differentceffects for moves with the same attributes.
For example, Swift could be the n-special, while it is Water Pulse for Vaporeon, Razor Leaf for Leafeon, Ember for Flareon, Pin Missile for Jolteon, Screech for Umbreon, Psybeam for Espeon, Ice Shard for Glaceon and Fairy wind for Sylveon.
All of them do the same damage, the same knock back, they just differ on the aesthetics.

Even this has issues though. All of Eevee's evolutions are much larger than Eevee. It couldn't use the others as alternate costumes without them being downsized or the image of the character not matching Eevee's hurtbox.

This would also be a nightmare, especially for competitive players who need to be accurate with their moves.

 

[RosaPeach]

Top 5 First Party Characters

Takamaru
Excitebiker
Chorus Kids
Chibi Robo
Celica

Top 5 Third Parties Characters
Rayman
Geno
Bomberman/Simon Belmont
Travis Touchdown
Arle Nadja

 

[Sonic Poke]

Those sound highly complicated to make work. That's still a lot, because you're making new animations for many moves.

Bowser Jr. doesn't do this. It just had 8 models animated to all act exactly the same. I think some of the ending taunts might've been different. And obviously unique voices.

It's really not the same thing. Having the other 7 as a costume could work, but that's as best as you could get it. If you try to implement too many changes like that, you get a super complicated mess that takes forever to make work. You also can get a lot of hitboxes that don't fit the exact model of the attack. It's a fun idea, but not feasible.

I don't see it as something as complicated. All the moves I mentioned are simple projectiles that are already in the game.
Just change the aesthetics. The hitboxes, the damege, the knockback, the range, the properties, everything keep the same.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Why can't eevee just have a normal pokemon moveset without all this fancyness. That would be much fairer to the pokemon.

We could have a Bowser Jr. situation where the eeveelution are special costumes that have differentceffects for moves with the same attributes.
For example, Swift could be the n-special, while it is Water Pulse for Vaporeon, Razor Leaf for Leafeon, Ember for Flareon, Pin Missile for Jolteon, Screech for Umbreon, Psybeam for Espeon, Ice Shard for Glaceon and Fairy wind for Sylveon.
All of them do the same damage, the same knock back, they just differ on the aesthetics.

That's not how costumes work.

 

[Bowserlick]

Eevee can transform into Flareon, Vaporeon or Jolteon for the duration of the stock depending on delivering damage, taking damage, dodging/running or another set of criteria.

Each is a clone of Eevee with different properties and a variation on specials. A permanent Monado Arts Shulk for a stock.

 

[smileMasky]

That's certainly a possibility, but just remember that you have nothing to lose if you walk into E3 expecting a few cuts. Play it safe.

Funny enough I only play as a hand full of characters so I'm not going to mis a few 10s or 20 characters

 

[Sonic Poke]

That's not how costumes work.

That was pretty much what would happen to Doc Mario if Sakurai hadn't changed his mind.
That is how Doc was implemented in Project M to be fair.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

What would be unique is if Eevee could evolve during battle, but only into one evolution per battle.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well my idea for an Eevee moveset involves it summoning it's big bros and sisters to help, via the magic of Z-power. And it's not just a visual effect, according to the anime, Eevee really summons it's elders. If you've got moveset ideas, I'd love to post them on the front page of the support thread.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

That was pretty much what would happen to Doc Mario if Sakurai hadn't changed his mind.
That is how Doc was implemented in Project M to be fair.

It's impressive how unable you are to understand the actual reason why costumes don't work the way you think they do. Please don't ever use Project M as a positive example of how to do something. The people who made that hack are an insult to how much better and more carefully designed Sakurai's games are and it makes me sick just thinking about it.

I hate Project M. It's offensive that this site even recognizes Project M as something legit. Project M defaces disciplined art with stupid, fanboy nonsense.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

That was pretty much what would happen to Doc Mario if Sakurai hadn't changed his mind.
That is how Doc was implemented in Project M to be fair.

We don't know that though, he could have just have him shooting fireballs for all we know. as it stands though none of the alts change any effects, and making multiple attacks fit multiple different types would look strange, idk how swift translates into ember, screech or water pulse. And then there's the fact that fire and electricity and stuff have different effects in smash too

 

[Zinith]

I hate Project M.

*The thoughts of every Yoshi main ever*

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think a lot of people are just coming up with overly complicated ideas using what makes a particular Pokemon unique, because without those things the Pokemon in question is rather popular, but not interesting when it comes to a game like Smash.

This is why I still think a character like Mimikyu or Decidueye is the better pick.

 

[Sonic Poke]

It's impressive how unable you are to understand the actual reason why costumes don't work the way you think they do. Please don't ever use Project M as a positive example of how to do something. The people who made that hack are an insult to how much better and more carefully designed Sakurai's games are and it makes me sick just thinking about it.

I hate Project M.

Jeez calm down, no need to be aggressive. I am not insulting anyone why do you need to?

I am just pointing that it was Sakurai's plans for Dr. Mario in Smash 4. To be a special Mario costume. He just changed his mind. That's it.
If it was a possibility once, it shouldn't be ruled out.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That was pretty much what would happen to Doc Mario if Sakurai hadn't changed his mind.
That is how Doc was implemented in Project M to be fair.

No, we wouldn't have gotten the Mega Vitamins then. Those are different attacks with different models and different animations and effects.. It's not how costumes work. He doesn't change anything but their taunts/voices only. Everything else has to be the same. The models need to be near identical to turn them into alternate costumes. Eevee could have colors matching the other evolutions, but that's it.

I don't see it as something as complicated. All the moves I mentioned are simple projectiles that are already in the game.
Just change the aesthetics. The hitboxes, the damege, the knockback, the range, the properties, everything keep the same.

No, it's very complicated. You need to make sure every single projectile works 100% the same, with the same size to avoid hitbox issues, the same damage, knockback, and so on. They must share an extremely similar model to work(Ember and Electro Ball, for instance, are completely different designs). There's a reason Alph didn't get Rock Pikmin even as an alternate costume. It took a lot more effort to make than what they had time for, and they require new models. Also, a lot of the potential moves are not in Smash.

Now, what could work is recoloring, say, Shadow Ball to match a similar color to every costume. There's a few moves similar to that, at least.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Jeez calm down, no need to be aggressive. I am not insulting anyone why do you need to?

I am just pointing that it was Sakurai's plans for Dr. Mario in Smash 4. To be a special Mario costume. He just changed his mind. That's it.
If it was a possibility once, it shouldn't be ruled out.

I'm not being aggressive. I'm criticizing your failure to be on the same page. The reason Eeveelutions don't work as costumes is because they all have different sizes, attributes, and would require different animations and specials that can not simply be swapped out with alternate effects.

Instead of very quickly and easily coming to that conclusion, you are changing the subject to Dr. Mario which is not the same thing because the differences in attributes are not equivalent.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

It's impressive how unable you are to understand the actual reason why costumes don't work the way you think they do. Please don't ever use Project M as a positive example of how to do something. The people who made that hack are an insult to how much better and more carefully designed Sakurai's games are and it makes me sick just thinking about it.

I hate Project M. It's offensive that this site even recognizes Project M as something legit. Project M defaces disciplined art with stupid, fanboy nonsense.

Whoa....
I have some objections to PM, but the game also does a lot of things right. I don't like them dissolving Doc into Mario, but that really has nothing to do with the current issue.
They certainly made a better game than Brawl was, if you ignore SSE.

Edit: "disciplined art" ... random tripping

 

[CrusherMania1592]

That doesn't change the fact 8 separate characters have to be designed, programmed, balanced, and tested.

It's a developing nightmare.

Imagine 8 Eevees on the field at once playing the evolution ability at the same time


Yep it's gonna crash the game

 

[Fenriraga]

It's impressive how unable you are to understand the actual reason why costumes don't work the way you think they do. Please don't ever use Project M as a positive example of how to do something. The people who made that hack are an insult to how much better and more carefully designed Sakurai's games are and it makes me sick just thinking about it.

I hate Project M. It's offensive that this site even recognizes Project M as something legit. Project M defaces disciplined art with stupid, fanboy nonsense.

I agree that the P:M Doc argument doesn't work in this scenario, but holy hell Jinjo, take it down about 100 pegs. Like it or not, P:M is going to come up in conversations for a variety of different reasons, many of them positive. Sakurai is not some perfect little angel capable of doing no wrong, creator of the series or not. If nothing else, P:M did show us that Brawl was capable of things we never thought possible, such as the aforementioned changing of Mario's elements for his Doc costume, amongst other things.

 

[Zerp]

It's impressive how unable you are to understand the actual reason why costumes don't work the way you think they do. Please don't ever use Project M as a positive example of how to do something. The people who made that hack are an insult to how much better and more carefully designed Sakurai's games are and it makes me sick just thinking about it.

I hate Project M. It's offensive that this site even recognizes Project M as something legit. Project M defaces disciplined art with stupid, fanboy nonsense.

How is Project M an insult and how exactly does it deface disciplined art with stupid fanboy nonsense? I can't see it as anything other than a labor of love, much like the official games.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Whoa....
I have some objections to PM, but the game also does a lot of things right. I don't like them dissolving Doc into Mario, but that really has nothing to do with the current issue.
They certainly made a better game than Brawl was, if you ignore SSE.

Edit: "disciplined art" ... random tripping

I agree that the P:M Doc argument doesn't work in this scenario, but holy hell Jinjo, take it down about 100 pegs. Like it or not, P:M is going to come up in conversations for a variety of different reasons, many of them positive. If nothing else, P:M did show us that Brawl was capable of things we never thought possible, such as the aforementioned changing of Mario's elements for his Doc costume, amongst other things.

Whoa....
I have some objections to PM, but the game also does a lot of things right. I don't like them dissolving Doc into Mario, but that really has nothing to do with the current issue.
They certainly made a better game than Brawl was, if you ignore SSE.

Edit: "disciplined art" ... random tripping

A lot of Smash fans have a really messed up idea of what Super Smash Bros is supposed to be, it's always just purely competitive. The costumes are a huge deal too. The ridiculous costumes based on things that don't exist or stuff that the internet has a weird cult obsession with defaces every character in the game.

It's a neat hack, but it should not be held up and recognized as an alternative to Super Smash Bros and recognized in official tournaments. The ladder is a slap in the face to Nintendo as well as their characters. I don't agree with defacing other people's art and holding it up as something even better.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Smash fans have a really messed up idea of what Super Smash Bros is supposed to be, it's always just purely competitive. The costumes are a huge deal too. The ridicolous costumes based on things that don't exist or stuff that the internet has a weird obsession with defaces every character in the game.

So... you hate it so much because of armored Charizard and Jetset Sonic? I'm confused as to why it's so disturbing to you when mechanically PM is much better than Brawl and it has a lot of perfectly reasonable costumes. 4 has America Mario, so there's a bit of ground lost on it maintaining the pretentious tone that you seem to be making reference to.

And using costumes to represent other characters, the only thing it was brought up for, is something also done in 4, on multiple occasions.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Eevee and/or Gengar is the frontliner for another Gen 1 Pokemon

Ok eevee I see due to the Pokémon let's go leak

But how does gengar have ground for this?

 

[Sonic Poke]

The history of smash show that size and attributes doesn't matter on making costumes or clones.
Morton Koopa is clearly muck bigger than Larry Koopa. Iggy is much taller than Lemmy. Roy is much wider than Wendy. Yet, they were all resized to be Bowser Jr. like.
And look at Lucina. Her sword is supposed to be much larger. A two handed sword. Yet they made her a clone of Marth.

All eeveelutions have a similar body shape. They could be worked into costumes. Probably they wouldn't but that is not out of question.
I'd rather have a Eevee with her boring normal type moveset than an abomination with a gimmick that is not fair to her original appearance.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Since this is clearly inappropriate and flaming users for making a project, this will be dropped immediately. Continuing may result in infractions/warnings. Obviously after this post. If somebody posts after this, I'll let it be for a few minutes so they can see this and remove what they said.

You have been warned.